I read the last line only.

My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange.

TL:DR

*words... words*

EVE is hard.

*words words"

Ignoring the errors in the rest of your wall of text, there's a huge discrepanct here

If you (incorrectly) assume the only thing holding you back is SP, then that takes absolutely none of your own personal time to remedy. Just setup your skill queue, log off, and go play cod or candycrush or whatever your little instant gratificarion heart desires.

I have been playing for just over a month now, so not as long as you have. However I am not disillusioned at all, because I knew from day one that it has a 'Wait to Play' aspect to it. And that is perfectly fine.

One of the things that stopped me playing other MMO's like WoW is that there is almost no reward for being a 'veteran'. In games like WoW the only things you can work towards is pure vanity items like mounts, titles or achievements.

Compared to this game where I am ALWAYS improving in some way, and I am ALWAYS progressing towards some goal. Yes, this does take some time to achieve ingame goals, but I much prefer that than having everything handed to me.

There is no discrepancy in the words you quoted, nor have you correctly summarized how I value my game time.

Thanks for posting.

No, you can't buy ISK with real money.

You can buy PLEX or GTCs with real money.
If nobody buys them from you,
then you don't get a single ISK.

So I have to ask. Your stuff...can I have it?

Rewards for that time spent in EVE waiting on that skill to finish are self serving IMHO. Yes EVE does take time for some things. There is a ton you can do with low skilled pilots also, you just have to find what you like and get with a like minded group. Solo EVE is not conducive to fun.

Thanks for a direct, on-topic reply. Your post validates my conclusion that EVE's model is "hurry up and wait." And it makes clear that those who don't mind this dynamic will, or may, find satisfaction in EVE. That is fine.

What I find curious, if not backward, in your is that EVE's system, in my opinion, is the epitome of having things "handed to you." For, when it comes to acquiring a better ship or a better weapon, etc., there is nothing you can do to bring about that result. You don't earn those things. You don't merit them. EVE gives them to you for nothing. You don't have to play to get them. You just have to wait. And, of course, find something else to do while you wait. That, to me, is incredibly boring.

Thanks for the post.

Well there's a saying, EvE is not for everyone, there's a reason they call it a ''mature'' MMORPG these days

It's not like you have to ''wait'' for skills every time you want to fly a ship, you train those skils and that's it, you will not lose them.
Most skills work quite well at IV, and everyone does well with skills at IV, V is for specializations only and that's why they take so long.

I know new players are lured by the prospect of piloting huge ships but you will soon find that the joy of EvE tends to be from sub-capital ships, it sounds like you tried to start from the top but it doesn't work that way, you start from bottom to the way up, with the harsh death penalties of EvE, dying in a huge ship is gonna set you back ALOT which is why EvE teaches you to take it slowly.

For now, EvE seems like the final stop in my crave of MMORPGS, tell me what game offers the same or more than EvE? I rage quitted EvE in my beginning days because I didn't get it but the nagging feeling at the back of my head made me come back and I haven't left yet :)

Just log in to train skills for the first year or so

No, you can't buy ISK with real money.

You can buy PLEX or GTCs with real money.
If nobody buys them from you,
then you don't get a single ISK.

What was it that would have taken more than 200 days to train?

LOL, read the title and thought it was a thread about having long waits to group up in null alliance fleets, left disappointed.

I take it this is another one of those "I want to fly a Titan on Day 1" posts.

Could you tell us exactly what it is you are unable to do that you feel you should be able to do from day 1?

Right. Wait a year to play. That was my point. Just not for me. Might not be for others, either. Hence, the thread.

That's my point though. Updating your skill queue takes no time at all. You can take ten seconds to update your queue once a week and do literally *anything* else in RL or in any other game. If anything, eve caters to those players whose time has value as you don't have to spend 200 hours of mind numbing grind just to level your character.

The number was a hip shot. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The point is that training for a ship is the beginning of training for that ship, not the end. There are numerous skills that bear on the utility of a ship. That amounts to significantly more training time than the face-value time noted in the "Requirements" tab. That was the point.

I blame the parents. Kids today don't have to work to earn anything. They just ask for it and they get it. Insufferable, self-entitled brats, all of them.

So what about all the things you can do with a low skill set that I alluded to?

Doing your skills is as much a game as the main game itself if you want something fancy, but theres dozens of things that can be done with low or even no skills.

Theres no problm in EvE that there isnt a solution to

In a sense isk is xp in eve as it is required for advancment. If you buy plex it will indeed ruin your first few months the same way buying a level 80 (no idea what the level cap is now) paladin with all bis gear will ruin your game in WoW. If you progress normally you should always be working to earn isk towards that next ship while your skills improve until you can both finance and fly your desired goal.

I believe that there is no in-game solution to the problem I have brought up in this thread.

Your point is valid. It takes no game time to train skills. I suppose I could queue up the skills over several months, and then start "playing." That doesn't appeal to me, however. The journey is, in my opinion, part of the game.

Could you tell us exactly what it is you are unable to do that you feel you should be able to do from day 1?

It is about my game time not influencing my ability to get what has the greatest value (or bearing on gameplay) in the game, aside from the human skills one brings to, or acquires in, the game.

In my first month in eve I took up ninja salvaging and trading. In my second month of eve I joined a C5 wh alliance just after the release of apocrypha. Had a good time there for 6 months. On my seventh month of eve I joined an npc 0.0 corp to learn the ropes of pvp.

Does that sound like "wait to play"?

If you want to be taken seriously, then I would have expected some facts behind that number instead of a hip shot. Also, it does matter.

Certain skills are used in each and every ship type. This means that once you have them, they will always be there to help. But if you expect to be able to fly a BS with all level 5's after a couple of months, then it's not the game that's at fault.

Right. Wait a year to play. That was my point. Just not for me. Might not be for others, either. Hence, the thread.

What I oppose is the idea that a gameGÇöany gameGÇöshould be founded on the principle of play without reward

Great post OP.

Really hit the nail on the head.

Sadly, as has been demonstrated multiple times already, this thread will continue to fill up with personal insults, breaking the rules, causing an ISD to lock it.

Because the majority of people who take time to visit these forums don't want the views and opinions that oppose their own to exist.

EVE is a numbers game. Plain and simple.

If opening up EFT and finding out exactly how much of an upgrade a certain module from meta 3 > meta 4 > tech 2 and how much tank or dps that 16 day 5% skill train actually nets you doesn't get your juices flowing then EVE isn't for you.

Your Post: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Azz-6oT08c

You did not understand my post, sir. Not even close. Others have likewise failed to understand what was being said. That's not my problem, though.

Playing EvE as a new person is like standing in 3 inches of water being told you should enjoy your swim.

But there is

What about all the things you only need low or no skills for?

The only limit is your imagination

The "problem" I have brought up is that one cannot influence the timetable for acquiring specific skills. Your point does not address this. So, I continue to stand firm in that there is no in-game solution for this problem.

I see no connection between ISK and the point in the OP.

What difference is there between giving a child a piece of candy today vs. giving it to him in a month, if he doesn't have to do anything to receive it either way? Seems that EVE, by your standard, encourages bad parenting. It's just delayed bad parenting.

I migrated to EVE from another MMO in January, 2014, at the energetic urging of a friend. "It is an awesome MMOG," he promised.

I must admit that, initially, the game appeared to have much to offer. The training missions awarded me with complimentary ships, free skills (that trained in minutes!), engagements with nasty pirates, and you got to fly through space at warp speed! Pretty cool. While zipping around the universe in my shiny Sukuuvestaa Heron, there seemed to be no limit to the adventures that surely awaited me in New Eden. After all, if the new-player content was this rewarding, surely the "real world"GÇöthe place where the danger really wasGÇöcould only offer an even greater experience. My mind was an endless sea of ideasGÇövisions of where I would go, the losses I would suffer, the scumbags I would pop, and the perils I would conquer.

A couple months later, reality has finally settled in, and it isn't pretty. EVE is not the exciting adventure I imagined it would be in those initial hours and days of playing. Quite frankly, it is an utterly maddening experiment in "hurry up and wait." I have concludedGÇöand there is no other conclusion that I can draw outside of cognitive dissonanceGÇöthat EVE is not a game you play; it is a game you wait to play.

What does that mean? It means that, once you get your noob ships and skills, advancing in the game is not a reflexive process at all. Nothing you do in-game will hasten your acquisition of the skills and ships you need to make your bigger EVE dreams a reality. You are stuck in a truly endless training queue. And there is no superlative in that statementGÇöthe training queue is endless. For no sooner do you conquer your first twenty-or-thirty-something-day training marathon, finally getting your hands on that coveted ship that promises to lift you to new heights, than you discover that you can't equip the mods you want for it without enduring an additional multi-week training queue for EACH of them. And after you have endured those as well, you will discover that, even then, your dream eludes you, because you still must endure many more multi-week training queues before you can fit all those mods on your ship anyway. Not enough CPU, not enough Power Grid. More skills needed. More waiting. Waiting. Waiting. Waiting. What appeared to be tolerable at the outset (a 20-or-so-day training wait), you discover is more like a 200-day training wait.

At this point, you have discovered EVE's dirty little secretGÇöyou don't play EVE to advance toward what you want; you wait for EVE to tell you that you can have what you've wanted since day one. The all-powerful "Requirements" tab is become your brutal and merciless master. And heaven forbid that you should, at any time, change your mind about what you want to be, or what class of ship you want to fly. For you will have to start a great deal of the training marathon over again.

EVE's is an outrageous advancement system. But don't misunderstand my position. The passage of time that precedes the acquisition of something of valueGÇöthis is not a reality that I necessarily oppose. What I oppose is the idea that a gameGÇöany gameGÇöshould be founded on the principle of play without reward. And make no mistake, aside from whatever reward a given player will ascribe to the game of his own will, EVE, as a game, does not inherently reward players for their play time, except with in-game currency. But, lo and behold, players can buy that with real money! So even that is not necessarily a reward. And money doesn't mean squat in EVE until your masterGÇöthe "Requirements" tabGÇötells you that you have something decent to spend it on.

It is stupefying to me that EVE has lasted as long as it has with this advancement system in place. Again, no superlative intended.

If you are an EVE veteran, I salute you. You have done what I cannotGÇöand will notGÇödo; you have endured the perpetual training cycles required to, at last, land you in the place you wanted to be. My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange.

If you are thinking about joining EVE, consider yourself forewarned.

Implants and remaps?

The "problem" I have brought up is that one cannot influence the timetable for acquiring specific skills. Your point does not address this. So, I continue to stand firm in that there is no in-game solution for this problem.

*Hobbles in on his cane and pulls up a seat*

Obligitory TL;DR.. no that should be "Too damn old in eve, and don't give a crap"

I have been here for 10 bloody years. So I was playing eve before you even knew what a jove was. Back when Jove were CCP and we hoped we could eventually play them. *Glares at ccp*

So a few things, 1) What the hells is with all the whine threads about skill points and waititng lately? I seriously don't under stand it. Are you all alts of the same dude or something?

2) You clearly have ZERO idea how the game works. None, zip, noda. Let me explain, and this will be very simple. I have 120m skill points(yes low for 10 years, no implants, sue me), and a few days ago, I died to someone under a year.. twice.

3) You are looking at the game completely wrong. EvE is not WoW in space, EvE is not what Star Citizen thinks it will be, EvE is not GD checkers. EvE is a game of choices, opportunity, planning, and chess. If you don't have the mind for chess, eve is not for you.

4) I can prolly list off the top of my head about 20 things you can easily do in eve whithen one single day of training. Maybe a week max. They are:

1) mining
2) Refnining
3) mission running
4) belt ratting
5) Ninja Salvage
6) Piracy (yup you can gank pitates in a damn frig)
7) Gate Camping
8) Cyno operator
9) CEO
10) Explorer
11) Worm Hole worker (can easily do a c1 solow in a cruiser/bc, takes maybe 2-4 weeks of training)
12) Scaming
13) Trader
14) Builder
15) Scientist
16) Scout
17) Tackler
18) Bounty Hunter
19) AFK Cloaker
20) Basic logistics and EW

5) I just listed 20 task, you can do, easily, from my ass. If I had tiem to research more I could put down 100 more. The problem is not that eve is a 'wait to play' game, the problem is you. You have no imagination and you are looking at things like huge fleet fights and going 'ooooh that's ALL I want to do' Thus limiting what you can do.

That's it in a nut shell. You are looking at eve completely wrong. Because of that, you will never see the potential for what you can do now. So what if you can't jump into a T2 battle ship with T2/faction gear. This is not WoW, STG, STO, etc. Faction and Tech 2 != win. If you can not fly or know your ship you will die. The linerar training is for this reason. Its the same with Real life, just because you take a month of karate you should not be able to beat a 10th degree black belt. However, if you have someone who has just jumped into being trained and has a black belt he did not earn, you as a white or yellow belt who have taken traning should easily ship his ass.

One more exsample, just because I know how to drive a pinto doenslt mean I can drive for NASCAR.

Stop looking at eve likes its WoW, because its not. If you can not do that, then you will fail in eve and should give me yoru stuff now and return to whatever mmo you came from.

Change your thinking, as the issue is you, not eve.

It is stupefying to me that EVE has lasted as long as it has with this advancement system in place. Again, no superlative intended.

If you are an EVE veteran, I salute you. You have done what I cannotGÇöand will notGÇödo; you have endured the perpetual training cycles required to, at last, land you in the place you wanted to be. My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange.
.

Mono..what?

MONORAIL!

The only limit is your imagination

You did not understand my post, sir. Not even close. Others have likewise failed to understand what was being said. That's not my problem, though.

Well, I have to disagree with your vaunted knowledge here. The point of the OP is specific and valid, even without your veteran approval. And, from your response, I cannot agree that you understood the point.

I play this game specifically because a kid cannot come in and grind 23/7 for a month and be more advanced than myself who has played for ten years across several accounts.

Should you be looking for instant gratification this is not the game. Should you be looking for a twitch reflex game, this is not it.

This is a game of relationships (meta) and planning. You have to be invested in multiple aspects of the game so you are not WAITING to play.

Also, once you find a ship you really enjoy, max it out before going up the charts or you will end up in a 12500 EHP, 150 DPS Raven whose cap melts in 1min 50 secs

The "problem" I have brought up is that one cannot influence the timetable for acquiring specific skills. Your point does not address this. So, I continue to stand firm in that there is no in-game solution for this problem.

I think it is fair to say that if one joins a corporation, or always plays in a group, he can experience a great deal more of the game while waiting for his skills to train than a solo player. This does not negate the validity of my point; it only narrows the conditions under which it fully applies.

The "problem" I have brought up is that one cannot influence the timetable for acquiring specific skills. Your point does not address this. So, I continue to stand firm in that there is no in-game solution for this problem.

Well, I have to disagree with your vaunted knowledge here. The point of the OP is specific and valid, even without your veteran approval. And, from your response, I cannot agree that you understood the point.

Its a fallacy because you can't, you can only do some of the things and some of the things is not all of the things

the things you can't do are essentially eve's endgame content YES eve has endgame content, and your a deluded fool if you think otherwise

I love that I can play other games, go to work, hang out with friends, or do anything else that goes with having a life; and my character doesn't suffer for me not doing 100 raids for a drop or grinding for the boots of awesome +3.

Well, despite all the trolling, the OP is right...and we all know it.

A couple months later, reality has finally settled in, and it isn't pretty. EVE is not the exciting adventure I imagined it would be in those initial hours and days of playing. Quite frankly, it is an utterly maddening experiment in "hurry up and wait." I have concludedGÇöand there is no other conclusion that I can draw outside of cognitive dissonanceGÇöthat EVE is not a game you play; it is a game you wait to play.

I understand. You do have to wait months before you have the skills to play the way you want to. That said, if you want to fill a limited role within a corp, you can train to do low level tasks pretty quickly. I didn't want to pay to play someone else's game for them. I have been playing for 8 months or so now and can finally feel like have a chance flying PVP in a frigate.

My wife, who was carrying more than her load at work as a result of other employees' laziness, approached her employer for a raise. She was told that she would receive nickel more per hour after a certain amount of time had passed, and that similar raises would be forthcoming on the same principle. She quit soon thereafter.

Be nice to the poor guy he just wants to "win" EVE.



I must admit to becoming very suspicious of these once a week threads which say almost the same thing "I want a battleship and give it to me now".....

Also why do redundant threads on every other topic get locked except this one ?

So she was going to get her raise then?

Because this thread is not about "I want a battleship and give it to me now." The number of posters who cannot seem to glean the point of the OP is astounding. If it weren't for the equal number of posters who DO get it, and who have been mature enough to admit the legitimacy of the point I raise, I'd probably have had to conclude that I just can't communicate. Again, were it not for those others...

Exactly. It is not a question, as has been continually pushed here by those trying to dismiss the issue, of wanting immediate gratification. It is an issue of spending one's time doing things he'd rather not, while the only thing that prevents him from doing what he'd rather do is something, quite frankly, insultingGÇöthe passage of time.

That is EVE. Nothing you do will get you a better ship or better skills. Just the passage of time.

Yep. A nickel. After 5 months or something. And so were all the deadbeats she was carrying... after their five months. CCP must have modeled their pilot advancement system after this business's compensation-increase model.

Nothing you do will get you a better ship or better skills. Just the passage of time.

I get where the OP is coming from, I understand his broader point of view.
and he's not wrong, not on the larger scale of eve things. I can deal with the 'patience required' aspect to eve though, whereas it seem the OP may not be able to.

tbh I didn't read through the entire list of replies, I'm sure the usual fallacies of you can do everything from day 1 have been reposted ad-nauseum already.

Its a fallacy because you can't, you can only do some of the things
and some of the things is not all of the things

the things you can't do are essentially eve's endgame content

YES eve has endgame content, and your a deluded fool if you think otherwise
unlike other mmo's you cannot rush through levels to access that content
because eve has no levels, just SP based restrictions
and SP takes real world time to accumulate, rather than in game time

Exactly. And that is why I am left feeling that my in-game time is not valued by CCP. For their game is structured to reward the best ships and mods on the basis of... nothing. Well, other than your real-world money. For you can buy the game and not play it for a year, spend a little cash on PLEX to convert to ISK, and... viola!... you got "the best" ship out there for no in-game investment. And no amount of in-game effort will affect that timetable. Wow. Can it get any clearer?

This isn't true.

Lets say, hypothetically, it is your goal to pilot a titan, for whatever reason. This is generally the highest single SP/isk goal for most pilots so it works as a good example. Now there are a few particulars you should know about titan piloting: (1) The ship is a flying coffin that is mainly used as a bus with the secondary role of anti-capital alpha and (2) because it is a flying coffin, almost everyone puts the titan pilot on an alt, not a main.

Since you will be using another character to fly the titan anyway, you can take a look in the character bazaar. Depending on your requirements, a half-decent titan pilot can be anywhere from 10 bil to 40 bil isk. The titan itself will probably be around 100 bil +/- 50b depending on who you know (or don't know).

Now this may seem a bit expensive, but noobies have made over a billion isk in their first month through various means (trading, scamming, exploration). It IS possible. While extraordinary, it is not outside the realm of possibility for a 2 month old character to be able to afford and own a low-end Titan alt character without using any real $ for plex.

And then it's simply a question of acquiring the isk or connections to get the actual ship, something for which no hard limit is set by CCP. So you see, passage of time is not a limitation in eve. Only your own perceived limitations will limit you in New Eden.

If you call "holding your own in a PvP engagement in low-sec with a pilot flying the same ship as you," endgame, then I agree.

The reality is that, of two pilots flying the same ship in such an engagement, the one who has 6 months of mod and weapons skills trained will wipe the pilot with a week's worth of the same skills trained, in spite of the fact that the latter can "jump into the ship in just a few minutes (or even hours) from beginning to play).

Exactly. And that is why I am left feeling that my in-game time is not valued by CCP. For their game is structured to reward the best ships and mods on the basis of... nothing.

My comment should be viewed in the context of how CCP has built the pilot-advancement mechanism, not in how players have been able to side-step it.

That's because ships and mods are not rewards (and the best ones have fairly low skill requirements anyway). Your in-game time is rewarded by gameplay experience GÇö the thing that really lets you beat the snot out of less experienced opponents. If you don't value the time you and other players put in, then that's your problem, not CCP's.

And you will get owned in your pimped out ship and get made fun of on EVENews24 and The Mittani. But then you might learn SP is not equal to skill.

You keep saying that you aren't wanting everything right now, but all your posts scream "I Want It Now!"

If you call "holding your own in a PvP engagement in low-sec with a pilot flying the same ship as you," endgame, then I agree.

Ha! That is awesome. You are a true opportunist. I will defer making a decision on this, however, until I have a chance to discuss with my my boy how badly he wants to keep playing. If he wants to stick around, I will do so for him. Otherwise you can have my stuff.


Good points. I agree. And, aside from the other things I said in the OP, since I'm a solo player, EVE has nothing substantial to offer me.

The journey is the reward
-- Taoist Proverb

No, they do not. They screamGÇöif they scream at allGÇö"Make my in-game time worth something!"

And, for the record, no matter how many posters attempt to cram this "I want it now" nonsense down my throat, it will continue to be a strawman argument. Not once have I clamored for anything "right now." I will be happy to see the same amount of time pass before I can pilot a certain ship or fit a certain mod. I simply am not amenable to the mechanism CCP has built.

No, it's usable, but you need to throw off the shackles of convention and see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses.

Example: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13234969 (right-click open in new window)

And some kills to show what that fit can do: http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=375809&m=4&y=2012

It is a FREAKING MMO, what did you expect.

Want to play alone, pick a single player game.

You wont be missed...Huh? Who was it agaun that left.

No, I won't be missed. And since being popular is not why I play a MOG, that doesn't concern me. This whole thread was to point out what I see as a major flaw in the game. And one that will lose CCP a customer (and others that I might have brought along with me). If CCP doesn't care about that, then I see no reason for them to encourage feedback. But since they do ask for it, I offered mine.

I don't think you're reading all your replies, you should take a look at my one about Learning Skills.

You are stuck on the classic fallacy that EVE is about SP and big boats.

I am going to quote another, older, thread. It was about the Phoenix being useless, but there is one particular reply you should look at.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=145242


This guy basically was killing Cyno kestrels with a deadspace fit Phoenix and eventually got hot dropped, please examine the killboards (I assume you've played EVE long enough to read a killboard).

In other words, we have someone who pimped a dread, decided to solo with it, and got owned. He got his awesome ship, he had his awesome mods, and he had the SP to fly it -- but he still lost because he didn't know enough about the game to know that becoming known as the guy who solos Cyno Kestrels in his dread is a bad idea.

If you, as you propose, could just plop into a dread whenever you grind your way to "Dread Level" or whatever, we'd be seeing a lot more losses like this.

No, they do not.

They screamGÇöif they scream at allGÇö"Make my in-game time worth something!"

I simply am not amenable to the mechanism CCP has built.

I'm sorry. I just don't find waiting for skills to train to be much of a journey. And if "the journey" is busying myself with things I'd rather not do while my skills trainGÇöall the "other stuff" EVE offers while you waitGÇöyeah, this just isn't the game for me. I have no problem with that.

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?

Seeing how you behave when you don't get your way on every little thing? I'd say it's a net gain for the playerbase.

What you call "A major flaw", I call "one of the major reasons I play this game". The skillpoint system is specifically designed to NOT put mindless grinding as being the primary factor between players. If that's a problem for you, then beat it, and go to an MMO where running the rat wheel is encouraged.

No, I won't be missed. And since being popular is not why I play a MOG, that doesn't concern me. This whole thread was to point out what I see as a major flaw in the game. And one that will lose CCP a customer (and others that I might have brought along with me). If CCP doesn't care about that, then I see no reason for them to encourage feedback. But since they do ask for it, I offered mine.

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?

CCP wants not just your complimentary view, but my critical view.

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?

Dude, you didn't loose that manticore to the omen navy issue because of SP.

Dude, I just looked at your killboard. Some tips:

-No matter how much SP you have, bombers will never win against a dramiel or an incursus.
-It is extremely unlikely for a bomber to be able to take down an omen navy issue, regardless of SP.
-ECM is crap on non-bonused hulls.
-A survey scanner has no place on a PvP ship.

You don't know how to pick an engagement, and your ship fitting could really use some work. Yeah, eve isn't the problem here, you are.

I recently lost two Manticores. And no, I would not attribute their loss to SP. I lost them because I was willing to risk them to gain experience, which I did. I have more Manticores yet to be lost.

Was there a point in you making this thread personal?

I recently lost two Manticores. And no, I would not attribute their loss to SP. I lost them because I was willing to risk them to gain experience, which I did. I have more Manticores yet to be lost.

Was there a point in you making this thread personal?

Your personal experience with Eve is the reason for this thread. In understanding your personal experiences, we can understand where you are coming from, and how to fix your real problem.

For instance: The only thing your solo bomber will ever kill in lowsec is a miner without combat drones. In all probability you will never find such a miner. I just saved you a load of trouble and lossmails. You're welcome.

If you'd like, I could recommend some ships/fits for a quarter of the price of your bomber which might just get you some kills.

I thought EVE was about doing what you want, and not being like the mindless masses. Seems like the universe just got a lot smaller than EVE veterans were leading us all to believe.

GǪin fact, just to keep going with the tools-vs-usage thought, your entire problem is exactly the same one as you'll come across if you hang around a photo forum for more than six seconds.

Some guy comes along and states that GÇ£once I get [completely unnecessary pro-grade body] with [overpriced lens system] and stock up on FancyBrandGäó tripods and lights, I'm going to take awesome photos!GÇ¥, to which the answer is always, no, you'll take awful photos and end up with lots of expensive junk in your cupboard. What you do to make awesome photos is this: go out, right now, and start taking photos. You lack of a high-end camera is not the problem.

The same applies to skills and ships in EVE. You will not get awesome kills once you get [fancy ship] V fitted with T2 equipment. You will end up blapped and with a cupboard full of expensive lossmails. What you do to get awesome kills is this: go out, right now, and start shooting stuff. Your lack of high-end ships and skills is not the problem. Learn how to frame your shots and when to press the trigger, and you'll be surprised what results you can get even with beginner gear.

You can always throw off the shackles of the unimaginative masses like the Phoenix pilot who soloed cyno ships.

Maybe the reason that those fits are common is because they actually work? Besides, no fit is idiot proof and you need in-game practical experience to use them well. I've seen people confused as to what to do with an Alpha Mael in an Alphafleet.

Since I am a photographer, I relish dismissing both of your positions as not applicable to me. But you just keep applying assumptions. Self-assumed wisdom can be called wisdom, after all.

I thought EVE was about doing what you want, and not being like the mindless masses. Seems like the universe just got a lot smaller than EVE veterans were leading us all to believe.

Sorry, OP, but I don't really get what you're talking about.

Started a new character a few weeks back. With no ISK infusion from my other characters i directly jumped into faction warfare on about day 3. Just to see if it can be done. Sure, as I fly solo for the moment I'm mostly on the run while plexing. But there's also a skill in this that can only be learned by yourself and neither bought nor put into your skill queue: judging an engagement by the information you can gather (dscan, local, etc.) and deciding on fight or flight. And sitting in a cheaply fitted T1 frigate that you can't replace right away if it's lost in a plex in low sec doesn't feel like waiting at all, trust me

I thought EVE was about doing what you want, and not being like the mindless masses. Seems like the universe just got a lot smaller than EVE veterans were leading us all to believe.

While you can try whatever you want, you are not guaranteed to succeed at whatever you try.

To expect such is quite simply childish.

Since I am a photographer, I relish dismissing both of your positions as not applicable to me. But you just keep applying assumptions. Self-assumed wisdom can be called wisdom, after all.

You can stick a ten ton trailer to a toyota carolla, if that's what you want. Doesn't mean you'll get anywhere with it.

A man can write the most beautiful sonnet the world has ever heard. But before he does, he needs to learn his alphabet. Then, he needs to learn some vocabulary and at least the basics of syntax.

People do new and original things in eve every day. But to succeed, they generally need a firm grasp of the basics. You don't have that yet. We're trying to help you with that.

Indeed. Nor are you guaranteed to fail. I seem to recall someone posting something about being more imaginative that the masses... one minute it's good, the next it's bad. Crazy, eh?


I agree.

I would brand about 1% of what has been directly said to meGÇöby those opposed to my positionGÇö as "help." The odd thing is... I don't recall asking for help. I don't recall being dissatisfied with my performance in the game. I really don't know how these things became the focus (among many other off-topic issues).

I thought EVE was about doing what you want, and not being like the mindless masses. Seems like the universe just got a lot smaller than EVE veterans were leading us all to believe.

While you can try whatever you want, you are not guaranteed to succeed at whatever you try. Indeed. Nor are you guaranteed to fail. I seem to recall someone posting something about being more imaginative that the masses... one minute it's good, the next it's bad. Crazy, eh?

You can relish doing it, but you can't actually do itGǪ
They're not assumptions, and if you're really a photographer, you will understand the inherent error in the way of thinking.

Now you just have to realise that the problem you're perceiving with the EVE skill system is based on the exact same kind of error.

Your actual problem is that you've confused the tools with the process. The former is not the reward for the time you put in, the latter is. Having to wait is not a problem for the simple reason that you don't have to wait.

I would brand about 1% of what has been directly said to meGÇöby those opposed to my positionGÇö as "help." The odd thing is... I don't recall asking for help. I don't recall being dissatisfied with my performance in the game. I really don't know how these things became the focus (among many other off-topic issues).

SO this thing is still going because OP is bad at eve, and blames training queues for it. Mkay.

I don't have to realize any such thing, because I disagree that my perception is flawed. If you disagree with it, so be it, but my perception cannot be any more or less flawed than your own.

One who desires X ship and X mods does, indeed have to wait. There is no rational dispute to this. One's reasons for wanting those things are immaterial to the OP. Always have been.

So you are appointing yourself as the objective and reliable observer and we are all just irrational trolls who don't understand you?

If you had won every single one of those fights, would you have perceived a problem with eve? Would you have then made this thread about SP? We both know the answer to that.

If you want tips on where and how you can proceed as a solo bomber I can give you that. Though that's a hard path to follow, there are one or two amazing solo bombers out there.

If you want tips on how to get better for general lowsec pvp, we can help you with that too.

How is this different from any other MMO?

I believe that I detailed that very thing in the OP. I wish people would read (and understand) it before posting.

So you are appointing yourself as the objective and reliable observer and we are all just irrational trolls who don't understand you?

You, and others, have been making assumptions in this thread all day. This post is just par for the course.

I would brand about 1% of what has been directly said to meGÇöby those opposed to my positionGÇö as "help."

The odd thing is... I don't recall asking for help. I don't recall being dissatisfied with my performance in the game.

I really don't know how these things became the focus (among many other off-topic issues).

I understand the inherent error in you, and other posters, going off-topic, making assumptions about other posters, etc.

I don't have to realize any such thing, because I disagree that my perception is flawed. If you disagree with it, so be it, but my perception cannot be any more or less flawed than your own.

Oh I did read. You just failed to coherently answer my question, thus, it's here, being asked.

In any other MMO, if you want item x or y, you have to craft it, or buy it, or grind for it. All 3 of them imply some level of waiting for results.

If we are talking about levels, you have to log off, wait for your rested xp, and then go back to the grind, assuming you want to get there ASAP.

Did I miss something?

I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.

I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.

You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.

Care to enlighten me, I simply cannot see it.

No, I do not care to. It is there as plain as day. If you cannot see it, you didn't ever read it. At least, that is the only polite conclusion I can offer.

I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.

You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.

I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money.

But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in.

No, I do not care to. It is there as plain as day. If you cannot see it, you didn't ever read it. At least, that is the only polite conclusion I can offer.

Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand.


Indeed, after a "while".

Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand.

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.

Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand.

Your time isn't valued.

Suggesting that it should be, is suggesting that the game should be grind to win. And since the entire premise of the game's skill system consists of NOT running the rat wheel, your statement is asinine.

I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.

Harsher conditions - I don't think so.

Indeed, after a "while".

Having played MMOs where most of the player base are institutionalized (jail/hospital/whatever) or in high school becasue you need bulk free time to succeed I much prefer the EVE system.

What country lets you play MMOs in jail?