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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 62 post(s) |
ALI Virgo
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
89
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 00:08:00 -
[631] - Quote
remove t2 bpo instead |
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
155
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 02:57:00 -
[632] - Quote
ALI Virgo wrote:remove t2 bpo instead That would be nice...
My 'over' researched BPOs will be nerfed into uselessness thanks a lot CCP. Now selling BPCs will be a waste of time mostly. Well since I can't use my POS to safely research expensive BPOs thats out too. 2 major hits to my corps isk generation from industry related things -1 corp doing any real industry probably - multiple subs |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
249
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 03:12:00 -
[633] - Quote
Krystyn wrote:ALI Virgo wrote:remove t2 bpo instead That would be nice... My 'over' researched BPOs will be nerfed into uselessness thanks a lot CCP. Now selling BPCs will be a waste of time mostly. Well since I can't use my POS to safely research expensive BPOs thats out too. 2 major hits to my corps isk generation from industry related things -1 corp doing any real industry probably - multiple subs
Use your perfect blueprints to make shittons of money??
I guess that's too hard for you, even though all you have to do is run an application and it will do it all the math for you... |
Valterra Craven
214
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 05:11:00 -
[634] - Quote
I understand why CCP is doing what they are doing (even if I dont like it) in terms of the push vs pull mechanic in terms of industry, but one thing I don't understand is why the "optimal" ME levels are become so curvey instead of so linear? It seems alittle insane for a game thats only been going on 10 years to require someone to research a bpo for 6 years (even if a high end one) to reach level 10 ME. What exactly is the "gameplay" benefit or the reasoning behind doing this.... I just don't understand why you'd want to do this vs the old system where each level required the same amount of research time.
In any case, I have an idea for keeping numerous pos modules relevant.
Parallelism.
In other words the "killer feature" of POS would be to allow you to break up research jobs in parallel to complete them faster. You have two mods, you can break them up to complete twice as fast and so and so forth.
I did some rough estimates, and it looks like with a dread gur tower and assuming labs cpu cost of 500 cpu would allow you to have 15 labs at once if that's all you put on it. So to balance this you could either hugely increase the cpu cost so that it wouldn't be wise to go over 3-4 labs, or limit the amount of jobs that you could run in parallel. (I'd say balance it on the average number of labs people run now). I'd also mess with the current numbers that labs give bonuses to so that they are closer to NPC stations. In this way, POS don't compete with NPC/Null stations in the same way.
To be fair this could also be adapted to production jobs as well. |
DK Anaroth
Border Industrial Limited
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 06:37:00 -
[635] - Quote
I was thinking about the research changes and realised that it can be split up into a smaller changes which may help analyze the situation (incoming wall of text).
1) Recast the material and processing (time) efficiencies in terms of percentage savings Each existing blueprint has specified ME and PE levels, which are really just a count of how of how many times it has been researched, and it takes some arithmetic to determine how it effects the materials used, and time taken to manufacture using the blueprint. For ME, the percentage of waste is currently reported, and there is no additional information reported for the processing time efficiency.
In the next expansion the blueprints will instead report the percentage reductions over the base unresearched blueprint. Reporting of the waste percentage will also be removed.
You can calculate the percentage reduction corresponding to the levels of research. For both materials and processing time there is a limit value that you can't go below. For material efficiency the limit is a 9.09% reduction and corresponds to zero waste. For time efficiency it is a 20% reduction. At each level the time reduction is 2.2 times the material reduction.
The step makes a lot of sense. The new system will be much easier for most people to understand, as percentage reductions are used in many other places in Eve.
2) Adjust the base values stored on blueprints that are used for calculating the requirements for each of the source materials. In the static database, currently, the material requirements are calculated by adding the waste percentage of the blueprint to the base numbers.which are set for the so-called perfect efficency (without waste)
In the expansion all the blueprints will be modified to have the unresearched numbers as the new base, and apply a reduction based off those. Doing so also gives the opportunity to apply an overall adjustment to materials or even finer grade adjustments at the blueprint or even material level.
One issue with this is that the due to the calculations having to round values to integers, there will inevitably be small differences in the material requirements for some material efficiencies before and after this step even if there no deliberate change. In that sense it may be better for the material reduction to be display only and stll use the old way of calculating the requirements internally, you can always convert between the material reduction and waste percentages.
A bigger issue is that the current adjustment from the perfect base point to the unresearch base point adds 11.1% rather than the expected 10%, which means that the unresearched blueprints and thus all blueprints will effective have 1.1% increased requirements.
3) Simplify the research process and make it more like training skills. Currently, research works by doing a fixed period of research no matter what the current efficiency level of the blueprint is. The level is then increased by 1 and the efficiency of the blueprint is adjusted. There is no theoretical limit to amount of research you can do but after a while there will be little difference, and eventually any additional research will make no difference to the efficiency of the blueprints. 90% of what can be achieved is available at the an efficiency level of 9, and 95% at a level of 19. The shape of percentage reduction curve over research time is a negative hyperbola, with a horizontal asymptote at the previously mentioned limits.
For the expansion, the system will be changed to resemble gaining levels in the skill system. This means that there will be a maximum limit to the amount of research you can do on one blueprint, there will be a limited number of steps (currently 10), and the research time between the steps (and the total time for each step) will increase as a power series. The shape of the percentage reduction curve over time is thus logorithmic (although with a limit). The material reduction will go up in steps 10 of 1% and the time reduction in 10 steps of 2%.
One issue with this is the long research times at the high-end of the scale. With skill training you can switch around partly through gaining an increment. Introducing more steps would ease the situation somewhat, but the power relationship means you'd have many small extra steps at the start. As the relationship between research time is known for the scheme you could in theory have a floating point material reduction and chose whatever research periods you like. Another way of implementing that would be to keep track of the total researched time and only update the percentage reduction when it crosses the threshold. That would make things more skill like.
A second issue is that the ratio of time reduction to material reduction has been reduced to 2 from 2.2, which means that material research gets better faster than it used to.
The big issue is how to transfer existing blueprints to this scheme, in fact, it's the major point in contention and so belongs in a section of its own. In fact it'll need a post of its own. |
DK Anaroth
Border Industrial Limited
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 06:39:00 -
[636] - Quote
DK Anaroth wrote:[quote=CCP Greyscale]..[./quote]
I was thinking about the research changes and realised that it can be split up into a smaller changes which may help analyze the situation (incoming wall of text).
Wall of text continues...
4) Convert the existing blueprints to work in the new framework. The plan seems to be to convert every existing blueprint so that no currently researched blueprint gets any worse in terms of the bonus it provides. There are also some details on the conversions, level 1s will become 5% material reduction and 10% time reduction, level 5-9 will become 9%/18% and above level 9 will become the maximum 10/20. There are also some details for the negative level invention blueprints. Going off the time reduction information that I calculated level 2 would be 7%/14% and level 3&4 8% / 16% in accordance with the above scheme.
While this plan has a good intent, all existing blueprints are lumped into only 6 of the 11 pecentage categories. This is because the difference between level 0 and level 1 is a 5%/10% difference. Adding finer subdivisions would help with this, and moving to a continous model (or the skill point equivalent) would eliminate this problem.
Unfortunately even in the continous model there is an issue with the research time. For processing time efficiency as you move towards a 17.5% reduction (around level 7) it will take over twice as long to train to that level post expansion as before expansion, which is hardly ideal when you're trying to attract new players to industry. From there it slowly settles down, at 19.0% (level 19) it's about 1.46 times as long. A better option maybe to transition based on time taken, in which case the actual efficiency of the blueprint will change with the patch, but it's effect isn't as severe. The peak is earlier (at around level 6) and at that point the time reduction is about 90% of what it should be, however that only means that actual processing takes 1% longer than it would. Using coarser groupings of levels greatly magnifies the effects as others have reported. I have yet to finish the analysis of the material efficiency but it will be more extreme, as there is an additional factor due to changing the ratio of time reduction to material reduction.
Related to the last point, the listed rates for invention would widen the advantages that the T2 BPOs have over invented products. This would be relatively easy to fix though as they're just constants.
|
Mohenna
Knights of the Dark
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 09:22:00 -
[637] - Quote
Sorry if I don't read 32 pages of thread... Has anyone mentioned the issue of low MR small cost bpos that are already perfect? Say for example all the small ammo bpos.
It would be a truly major PITA to go and research all of these back up to the new "perfect" status. Is it possible to have perfect status bpos moved to perfect status in the new system? |
Tatjana Jouhinen
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 11:21:00 -
[638] - Quote
I really do not want to whine over the existance of T2 BPO, but this expansion would have been the chance to slightly adjust the difference between T2 BPO and invented BPO. In the new system, a T2 BPO can be researched to ME10%/TE20% in order to have zero waste.
What if you would reset invented BPC in a way, that the negative ME values are set to zero. Without any changes to decryptors, max ME levels for invented T2 BPC would be 4%. This would still retain a benefit for T2 BPO, but would close the gap a bit without completely destroying the value of T2 BPO, especially as I would not change the system for TE values. I f the remaining advantage is not big enough, the decryptors could be adjusted, or the team bonuses could be altered depending on whether production is done with an original or a copy.
Another option would have been to give a general ME/TE malus on production based on copies (this for both T2 and T1), so the decision to be made would be to either put the BPO on risk (= put it in a POS) or accept worse ME values. |
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 11:51:00 -
[639] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:I understand why CCP is doing what they are doing (even if I dont like it) in terms of the push vs pull mechanic in terms of industry, but one thing I don't understand is why the "optimal" ME levels are become so curvey instead of so linear? It seems alittle insane for a game thats only been going on 10 years to require someone to research a bpo for 6 years (even if a high end one) to reach level 10 ME. What exactly is the "gameplay" benefit or the reasoning behind doing this.... I just don't understand why you'd want to do this vs the old system where each level required the same amount of research time.
I don't even know if I'll be ALIVE for the next 6 years. But my character's research will still require to be ongoing. I don't even know what to say about that. |
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 12:19:00 -
[640] - Quote
Actually I do have more informative feedback for this thread.
CCP, it would be in your best interest to adapt a more granular research system, and one where players still require to be alive in order to benefit from their investment. I would rather pay a higher tax, while still being alive, and purchase a higher research BPC from someone else, even if they have to PLEX to gain that capital to do so, while still being alive. I'm sure they would appreciate that as well.
Also, it would benefit you as a business, to see some of that investment in profit, as you are running a business, not a retirement fund. Or are you planning to transition into a retirement facility housing old people who may not even see a dime on their in game investment, before they, you know, die?
This research time system is certainly not dynamic in any way. Granular would be better, a good investment for player capital, and would make more sense from a business point of view on your end. We all want to accomplish our goals while we are still alive. I'm sure you would benefit from having living players playing your game. You know, as opposed to players who have passed away, but still have research projects ongoing that will complete, in say the next 3 years.
I'm ballparking it here. But you know, just sayin'. |
|
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
95
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 12:39:00 -
[641] - Quote
Mohenna wrote:Sorry if I don't read 32 pages of thread... Has anyone mentioned the issue of low MR small cost bpos that are already perfect? Say for example all the small ammo bpos.
It would be a truly major PITA to go and research all of these back up to the new "perfect" status. Is it possible to have perfect status bpos moved to perfect status in the new system?
Yes, the small cost BPOs have been mentioned. For these blueprints, when they multiply everything by 1.11111 and then round to the nearest whole number they will end up right where they started. So your small rig BPO that was effectively perfect at ME0 is still effectively perfect at ME0.
But is it? They are adding teams that can reduce material costs by 7.5%. They are also adding 2% ME for building in a POS. But we don't know how those bonuses stack with blueprint bonuses. If they add, you can get 9.5% ME on an unresearched Blueprint. This yields nothing on the small cost blueprint in question. But if you research that blueprint to 10% and it adds to 19.5% the cost savings could be significant.
With infinite slots suddenly coming open in NPC stations, I think there will be a ton of ME research done in the first couple weeks of the expansion, followed by not much. |
Mohenna
Knights of the Dark
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 13:15:00 -
[642] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Mohenna wrote:Sorry if I don't read 32 pages of thread... Has anyone mentioned the issue of low MR small cost bpos that are already perfect? Say for example all the small ammo bpos.
It would be a truly major PITA to go and research all of these back up to the new "perfect" status. Is it possible to have perfect status bpos moved to perfect status in the new system? Yes, the small cost BPOs have been mentioned. For these blueprints, when they multiply everything by 1.11111 and then round to the nearest whole number they will end up right where they started. So your small rig BPO that was effectively perfect at ME0 is still effectively perfect at ME0. But is it? They are adding teams that can reduce material costs by 7.5%. They are also adding 2% ME for building in a POS. But we don't know how those bonuses stack with blueprint bonuses. If they add, you can get 9.5% ME on an unresearched Blueprint. This yields nothing on the small cost blueprint in question. But if you research that blueprint to 10% and it adds to 19.5% the cost savings could be significant. With infinite slots suddenly coming open in NPC stations, I think there will be a ton of ME research done in the first couple weeks of the expansion, followed by not much.
Sounds like a case could be made to move perfect bpos to 10%...
That'd be a nice QOL bonus for OCD players (the majority, me incl.) |
Sigras
Conglomo
738
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 15:42:00 -
[643] - Quote
Mohenna wrote:Sorry if I don't read 32 pages of thread... Has anyone mentioned the issue of low MR small cost bpos that are already perfect? Say for example all the small ammo bpos.
It would be a truly major PITA to go and research all of these back up to the new "perfect" status. Is it possible to have perfect status bpos moved to perfect status in the new system? I understand not reading the whole thread, but at least read the blue posts...
and yes, grayscale said the way rounding works that if a BPO was perfect before the change it will be perfect after.
IMHO they should do it on time and not waste but thats a different issue. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
263
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 20:40:00 -
[644] - Quote
In my opinion, you should simplify the ME/TE system even further - and at the same time address the worst issues people have with the transition.
I propose:
Blueprint LEVEL - that is: no more differing between ME lvl and TE lvl
Blueprint levels would go from 1 to 10. 1% material efficiency for every level, 2% time efficiency, but both are always at the SAME level
That means, at the price of reducing flexibility slightly by removing a choice that was IMO rather underused (TE research was AFAIK always insignificant compared to ME research), you solve a lot of problems.
- instead of researching level directly, you could research blueprint experience, using the level as a calculated value - partial research would not be an issue anymore, as every research second translates directly into experience - conversion of old BPOs would be absolutely FAIR, since you could directly convert from accumulated research time to experience - FULL market integration would be a lot easier with only 11 different blueprint levels
and on the technical side: - you would only have to store 1 value (experience) for every BPO
|
MyHaula
Wages Of Sin
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 22:10:00 -
[645] - Quote
I would have preferred something a little more player driven. Keep the slot limitations in the stations and the ability to remotely copy and research BPOs. In place of these changes it would've been nice to see a finer granularity for players to rent out corporate POS slots to non corporate or alliance members. That would be very much in keeping with the sandbox player generated nature of EVE while allowing competition to drive down the prices of copy and research slots through providing additional supply. |
Drone 16
Law Dogz
168
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 23:00:00 -
[646] - Quote
MyHaula wrote:I would have preferred something a little more player driven. Keep the slot limitations in the stations and the ability to remotely copy and research BPOs. In place of these changes it would've been nice to see a finer granularity for players to rent out corporate POS slots to non corporate or alliance members. That would be very much in keeping with the sandbox player generated nature of EVE while allowing competition to drive down the prices of copy and research slots through providing additional supply.
I tend to agree. The lack of remote research seems like it will funnel players into limited research stations. No one sane is going to risk expensive BPOs in their POS. I thought the idea as to get everyone to spread out. It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits |
DK Anaroth
Border Industrial Limited
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 03:28:00 -
[647] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:In my opinion, you should simplify the ME/TE system even further - and at the same time address the worst issues people have with the transition.
I propose:
Blueprint LEVEL - that is: no more differing between ME lvl and TE lvl
Blueprint levels would go from 1 to 10. 1% material efficiency for every level, 2% time efficiency, but both are always at the SAME level
That means, at the price of reducing flexibility slightly by removing a choice that was IMO rather underused (TE research was AFAIK always insignificant compared to ME research), you solve a lot of problems.
- instead of researching level directly, you could research blueprint experience, using the level as a calculated value - partial research would not be an issue anymore, as every research second translates directly into experience - conversion of old BPOs would be absolutely FAIR, since you could directly convert from accumulated research time to experience - FULL market integration would be a lot easier with only 11 different blueprint levels
and on the technical side: - you would only have to store 1 value (experience) for every BPO
Material research directly affects your profitability, while processing time research only allows you to earn it a bit more quickly.
I'm a firm believer of basing things on accumulated time as well.
If the processing-time side of things isn't as important then perhaps the solution is to simplify things even further, and instead just have a single percentage saving for the blueprint which reduces both the material and time efficiency equally.
One of the other complaints is that blueprints of a high enough level have to more than enough research-time to be the max level. A fairer way of dealing with that may be to introduce a soft cap, so when coverting a blueprint with a combined level above a certain threshold you only get a reduced proportion of those extra research points.
To compensate for either or both of those changes you would probably want to reduce the overall research-time progression, which would help with matching up to the actual effect of existing blueprints. |
Takara Mora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 04:50:00 -
[648] - Quote
Am I understanding correctly that researching, say, a capital ship, from ME 9 to ME 10, could take multiple YEARS? ....
Does that mean the BPO would need to sit in a research slot, for multiple years running?
Would that really be feasible? Especially for POS's .... imagine never being able to move the POS, etc. while researching that ....
Will there be any option to remove the ME/TE job from the slot, without losing all of the time already expended? |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
452
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 05:14:00 -
[649] - Quote
Takara Mora wrote:Am I understanding correctly that researching, say, a capital ship, from ME 9 to ME 10, could take multiple YEARS? ....
Does that mean the BPO would need to sit in a research slot, for multiple years running?
Would that really be feasible? Especially for POS's .... imagine never being able to move the POS, etc. while researching that ....
Will there be any option to remove the ME/TE job from the slot, without losing all of the time already expended?
Yes some bpo will take years after the patch to get the last ME level. I would expect that this is not something CCP expects to actually have happen and thus not taken into account. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 05:55:00 -
[650] - Quote
Ok, so I only read up to page 23 so this may have been mentioned.
Many people have suggested a 100 level ME system would be better for transferring current ME levels on bpo's to the new system, which I agree would be give a more accurate conversion. However, if a 100 level system were to be implemented it would then make it much harder to introduce a seperare BPC market, or integrate BPC into the existing market, as there would be too many combinations to deal with ( +bloated database ).
I for one would love to see BPCs moved out of the contract interface and into a market structured interface.
Even using a 10 point system as has been outlined in the blog would result in there being a lot of different permutations of available bpc.
So I guess what I'm saying is that sticking with the 10 point ME/TE method would make things easier if CCP did eventually move bpc to its own market space. |
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Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 06:43:00 -
[651] - Quote
The 100 point system people keep talking about is simply interpolating an additional 9 steps between each of the current 10 steps, 10% ME bonus is still the cap. The only thing 100 points change is allowing you to incrementally research the last 1% rather than having to do the whole thing at once if you choose to.
It all seems pretty good to me. The only argument for a 100 point system is so that, with the copy bonuses, people can keep improving their supercaptials while still meeting production demand for them.
CCP needs to bear in mind that the copy changes double super capital BPO efficacy as well as T2. This isn't such an issue, but selling super BPCs was a viable sub-profession previously and it will suffer.
Greyscale, to address the copy on T2 BPO issue, how about a third set of skills/BPO stats? Copy speed? You could give us an 'advanced science' skill and allow BPOs copy speed to be researched. By capping the effectiveness or even the application of this on T2 BPOs you can keep them in line, whilst making copy speed improvements a choice up to the player.
Those of us who don't value over-research would have dedicated invention BPOs that only have copy speed trained, for example.
You could do something similar with max-runs, giving those who want to sell Supercap BPCs more choices with how they research and enhancing the currently cut-and-dry decision of "am I building 1 titan, get a BPC. Will I build 2? Get a BPO sell it later". Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privalage.-á |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
174
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 07:22:00 -
[652] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:But is it? They are adding teams that can reduce material costs by 7.5%. They are also adding 2% ME for building in a POS. But we don't know how those bonuses stack with blueprint bonuses. If they add, you can get 9.5% ME on an unresearched Blueprint. This yields nothing on the small cost blueprint in question. But if you research that blueprint to 10% and it adds to 19.5% the cost savings could be significant.. This is a good point. I would have thought it would stack not multiply. Also the most which max teams can teams can contribute to ME is 5%. But if you combine that with the Outpost bonus then you can still definitely attain 20% ME. Which is a pretty massive saving compared to the current system.
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Agoma Akira
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 10:00:00 -
[653] - Quote
1. I understand ccp want to please the children that only watch the disney channel where counting goes up to 10 and not further.
2. now clear something up for me please, the blog stats that anything 10/10 now will become 10/10 after (the new perfect if I understand it).
this would mean that any nub nub with say 30 days of research on a cruiser, 15 days on a frig or 2month on a BS will get that. how would this help by giving almost any print ingame that has some for of research on them perfect status....?
while researching from scratch after the introduction will be months and years again
pls clarify |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
174
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 10:02:00 -
[654] - Quote
Another simple solution to the conversion of old BPO to new BPO problem could be that any time the BPO has been researched over ME10 is tallied up and then can be applied to a new BPO of exactly the same type.
That way no one is feeling they wasted their time, if they researched a BPO for 5 times longer than is possible in the new system, then they can simply apply all the extra research to get an additional 4 perfect BPOs of exactly the same type.
Perhaps this could be done on a petition basis and run for a couple of months after the release date if to complex to administer automatically. |
Lena Lazair
Khanid Irregulars
110
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 10:07:00 -
[655] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Blueprint LEVEL - that is: no more differing between ME lvl and TE lvl
I actually really like this idea, at least in conjunction with what CCP seems to be trying to do. It takes focus away from the BP and pushes that focus onto the external factors; teams/lumpiness. Want TE optimization for your level 5 blueprint? Find a team with that spec or use a POS with its build time advantages.
And bonus points for simplifying BPs to the point that we might actually get decent BPC tools in contract/markets someday. |
Maki Nomiya
ACME HARDWARE
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 11:10:00 -
[656] - Quote
MyHaula wrote:I would have preferred something a little more player driven. Keep the slot limitations in the stations and the ability to remotely copy and research BPOs. In place of these changes it would've been nice to see a finer granularity for players to rent out corporate POS slots to non corporate or alliance members. That would be very much in keeping with the sandbox player generated nature of EVE while allowing competition to drive down the prices of copy and research slots through providing additional supply.
Yeah this makes much much much more sense .... follows along the lines of making it a market that's player driven rather than forcing even more of the research facilities back to NPC hands. For Me and TE research it would be much more useful as usres wouldn't need physical access to the slots to use them.
Not so easy for copying tho Seriously... anyone with an expensive BPO like Battleship and above would be more likely to just stick those BPOs in their own hanger or a corp hanger in a research station and just copy them there instead of risking all that investment in the POS.
In a world building sense the whole idea that you can transfer your whole consciousness about the universe but can't look up blue Print details remotely seems flawed. We are capable of this sort of thing today !!
It would also make use of the option to set up access rights and costs on labs.... I don't think many people really use this as it's so complicated at present to set up and I'm not sure that even at alliance level it actually even works ?
If players beyond the corp are making use of the facilities in a POS then it may also encourage them to team up and come add to POS defense in the case of a war or attack on the facilities they are using too. |
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
169
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 11:14:00 -
[657] - Quote
What percentage of researched blueprints will be perfect after the patch ? 99.99% ?
10me seems a very low bar to set for a bp to get translated to perfect.
Isnt the BPc market that has developed over the last 10 years going to get mowed flat ?
All pre patch BP copiers will be reveling in there perfect prints even when they've invested next to nothing in developing there resources.
New copiers wil be forced to spend long days and lots of money to get there new m10 Te10 which will be absolutelly neccessary to compete with the vast army of pre patch perfect print owners !
You are calling this completelly wrong.
If mineral requirement change on BP builds its irrelevant that happens all the time with item requirement updates anyway. No advantage is given or taken from owners of similar BP levels.
What needs to be preserved is the time/money spent researching the prints.
New me of an old converted print should be based on the time already spent researching that print and where it falls on the new time scale of research.
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
264
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 11:58:00 -
[658] - Quote
DK Anaroth wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:In my opinion, you should simplify the ME/TE system even further - and at the same time address the worst issues people have with the transition.
I propose:
Blueprint LEVEL - that is: no more differing between ME lvl and TE lvl
Blueprint levels would go from 1 to 10. 1% material efficiency for every level, 2% time efficiency, but both are always at the SAME level
That means, at the price of reducing flexibility slightly by removing a choice that was IMO rather underused (TE research was AFAIK always insignificant compared to ME research), you solve a lot of problems.
- instead of researching level directly, you could research blueprint experience, using the level as a calculated value - partial research would not be an issue anymore, as every research second translates directly into experience - conversion of old BPOs would be absolutely FAIR, since you could directly convert from accumulated research time to experience - FULL market integration would be a lot easier with only 11 different blueprint levels
and on the technical side: - you would only have to store 1 value (experience) for every BPO
... If the processing-time side of things isn't as important then perhaps the solution is to simplify things even further, and instead just have a single percentage saving for the blueprint which reduces both the material and time efficiency equally. ...
Which is precisely what i proposed? :)
I also forgot an important advantage of that system: - new players are at less of a additional disadvantage compared to old players, because new BPO research will be paid in the same currency (research time) as the converted BPOs
P.S. I wouldn't be affected by what i proposed as I don't have any BPO with high research levels, so this is not a selfish request :) |
DireNecessity
The M.P.I. The Marmite Collective
42
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Posted - 2014.05.02 13:33:00 -
[659] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:The 100 point system people keep talking about is simply interpolating an additional 9 steps between each of the current 10 steps, 10% ME bonus is still the cap. The only thing 100 points change is allowing you to incrementally research the last 1% rather than having to do the whole thing at once if you choose to.
Not the only thing! The generous rounding transition currently proposed hands *massive* (months & months, years even) of research time benefits to those people sitting on difficult to research BPs about to jump to the next whole 1%. A 100 point system reduces the *unearned* gift to .1%. Granularity matters!
Unearned gifts on small things (say Damage Control 1s) is not terribly consequential but on large things (say battleships) it's a big huge honking deal. Granularity matters!
Parodying you, "The 10 point system people keep talking about is simply interpolating an additional 9 steps between the proposed 2 point system (un-researched/completely-researched), 10% ME bonus is still the cap. The only thing 10 points change is allowing you to research in 1/10th ME increments rather than having to do the whole thing at once if you choose." So Seith Kali, in for a penny, in for a pound? Do you prefer a 2 point system or does granularity suddenly matter?
In the current system Abaddons have 2,496,660 levels of ME granularity. Arguing that dropping that *merely* 100 is unnecessarily complex is truly bizarre. 0 to 100 is pretty damn simple. |
Dei
Khanid Brotherhood
31
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 18:04:00 -
[660] - Quote
With researching, one might assume that after an ME or copy job you would want to manufacture said item. In a starbase, these jobs require separate facilities. Now that remote jobs have been disabled I would have to go and move the BPO or BPCs from one structure to the other. Has this been taken into account?
Would be nice if POS transfers could be done remotely (inside the individual POS). |
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