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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 62 post(s) |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
325
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Posted - 2014.04.29 18:43:00 -
[541] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:GeeBee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
I thiiiiiink that jobs lasting more than 30 days are fine provided they're single-run. Certainly that works for manufacturing, otherwise it'd be impossible to build titans already. In any case, we're going to make sure that long single-run jobs work fine :)
As to people with ME10 Titan BPOs, that's ~4 years of research time under the current system. I'll go check if any exist, but I doubt it.
its not just that its any ME5 or PE5 is going to be turned into an ME9% or PE18% This means a ME5 titan bpo now has been researched for 1185 Days then turns into ME9% which takes 7336 days to duplicate in the new system. PE5 titan BPO (these may not exist, ME5s do for sure) 1777d before turns into PE18% which would take 11003 days after. The current system is fine, this redesign of the ME/PE system is unneeded, just fix the copy times. It would seem the logic of the 10 level system is to simplify it for new players or players new to industry, but at the same time it penalizes any new industry by excessively harsh research times compared to existing blueprints. Agreed. Convert old time to new time, and discard the extra. If it caps at ME10 so what. This puts everyone on the same footing, as the person who spent 1000 days researching in the past is 1000 days ahead of the upstart, instead of 5000 days ahead of them.
What?? No? Because under the old (current) research system we had a certain amount of benefit we were getting out of it. Nobody wants their BPOs to be less efficient than they were before the patch, that would be idiotic. It would be rewarding those who did not follow common sense and researched BPOs beyond a reasonable level and punishing everyone else. |
GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
47
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 18:49:00 -
[542] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Gospadin wrote:GeeBee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
I thiiiiiink that jobs lasting more than 30 days are fine provided they're single-run. Certainly that works for manufacturing, otherwise it'd be impossible to build titans already. In any case, we're going to make sure that long single-run jobs work fine :)
As to people with ME10 Titan BPOs, that's ~4 years of research time under the current system. I'll go check if any exist, but I doubt it.
its not just that its any ME5 or PE5 is going to be turned into an ME9% or PE18% This means a ME5 titan bpo now has been researched for 1185 Days then turns into ME9% which takes 7336 days to duplicate in the new system. PE5 titan BPO (these may not exist, ME5s do for sure) 1777d before turns into PE18% which would take 11003 days after. The current system is fine, this redesign of the ME/PE system is unneeded, just fix the copy times. It would seem the logic of the 10 level system is to simplify it for new players or players new to industry, but at the same time it penalizes any new industry by excessively harsh research times compared to existing blueprints. Agreed. Convert old time to new time, and discard the extra. If it caps at ME10 so what. This puts everyone on the same footing, as the person who spent 1000 days researching in the past is 1000 days ahead of the upstart, instead of 5000 days ahead of them. What?? No? Because under the old (current) research system we had a certain amount of benefit we were getting out of it. Nobody wants their BPOs to be less efficient than they were before the patch, that would be idiotic. It would be rewarding those who did not follow common sense and researched BPOs beyond a reasonable level and punishing everyone else.
we're not saying make them less efficient we're saying make the research times before and after equal and possibly go to a 100 point system instead and increase the cutoff if we cant live with me10 being perfect. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7156
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 18:53:00 -
[543] - Quote
GeeBee wrote: we're not saying make them less efficient we're saying make the research times before and after equal and possibly go to a 100 point system instead and increase the cutoff if we cant live with me10 being perfect.
Gospadin is Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
461
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Posted - 2014.04.29 18:57:00 -
[544] - Quote
The "let's increase ME to 100!" posting in this thread is starting to become reminiscent of the Reprocalypse thread where everyone had their knickers in a twist about not being able to hit 100% refines.
It's just a number. 10 is fine. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
461
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Posted - 2014.04.29 18:58:00 -
[545] - Quote
I understand that your plumage won't be quite as obnoxious with a mere 10 degrees of separation between bupkis and perfect, but please, it's just making the numbers bigger for the sake of more plumage. It has no beneficial gameplay effect. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
125
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 19:07:00 -
[546] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:GeeBee wrote: we're not saying make them less efficient we're saying make the research times before and after equal and possibly go to a 100 point system instead and increase the cutoff if we cant live with me10 being perfect.
Gospadin is
All I was trying to do was convert old time to new time. Whether they floor() or round() I don't think it matters THAT much, as someone will be close to (and miss) the cutoff.
I still believe that 10 levels is much easier for players to work with. Debating the merits of an ME81 BPO versus an ME83 BPO is like playing .01 isk games with market bots.
I also think that the scaling perhaps could use some re-tuning in general, but that's independent of the debate.
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Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
125
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 19:09:00 -
[547] - Quote
And if the concern is that round() or floor() doesn't please everyone, ceiling() has the same effect, as someone who achieves the minimum threshold of the next tier gets a huge benefit.
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DireNecessity
The M.P.I. The Marmite Collective
38
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Posted - 2014.04.29 19:11:00 -
[548] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:GeeBee wrote:Weaselior wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: Yeah, that's fair. I'll think about this some more.
The issue here may be that the scaling gets a little out of hand at the high end: I'm not sure there's any gameplay benefit to having research times measured in decades for anything in-game. I think you should look at adjusting the curves or times for the high-end bpos (basically capital and above) if you want to fix this sort of problem. I think the problem more is that we are discussing a (base) research time of 21 years for ME9%. Your problem with the conversion is there - the endpoint is ludicrous - rather than the general principle of maintaining the same amount of waste. Its not just titan bpo's it scales like this to all T1 blueprints from old to new. Rank 60s BC / BS ME10 Before 41d 16h After 306 Rank 60 BC / BS ME9 Before 37d 12h After 128 Rank 10 Capital Components ME10 Before 7D 9H After 51 Days Rank 10 Capitial Components ME 9 before 6D 16H After 21 Days A 100 Point System with a research time scaling that is somewhat linear to our current system would be better, working on a spreadsheet for it nows. I have less of an issue with saving a month doing it pre-patch: such is life, it is easy to get over that hump as a new player. I do however understand the "saving 21 years" problem is less amenable to a "deal w/it" solution.
Saving a month two here or there may be a bigger deal than it seems. I, like a lot of industrialists, have a sizable batch or reasonably well researched BPOs. When you start adding them together, I and others like me aren't going to be handed a month or two of comparative free research time, we're going to be handed many, many month's of free time - years of free time.
Now if CCP wants to hand me a veteran advantage I'll happily take it but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to set the transition up that way. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
155
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 19:20:00 -
[549] - Quote
Querns wrote:The "let's increase ME to 100!" posting in this thread is starting to become reminiscent of the Reprocalypse thread where everyone had their knickers in a twist about not being able to hit 100% refines.
It's just a number. 10 is fine. Not sure how you correlate that. What advantage does the 10 level system have over a 100 level system, besides from being less complex? (although it is still simple enough for anyone remotely intelligent to comprehend)
The only people I see getting knickers in a twist at the moment are the goons. As all their acolytes keep showing up all of a sudden, I am guessing they have some vested interest in this. No need to answer that though. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
462
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 19:24:00 -
[550] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Querns wrote:The "let's increase ME to 100!" posting in this thread is starting to become reminiscent of the Reprocalypse thread where everyone had their knickers in a twist about not being able to hit 100% refines.
It's just a number. 10 is fine. Not sure how you correlate that. What advantage does the 10 level system have over a 100 level system, besides from being less complex? (although it is still simple enough for anyone remotely intelligent to comprehend) The only people I see getting knickers in a twist at the moment are the goons. As all their acolytes keep showing up all of a sudden, I am guessing they have some vested interest in this. No need to answer that though. Conversely, what advantage does a 100 level system have over 10, except increased complexity and better plumage?
Simplicity is better in this case. Keep it at 10. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Uncle Shrimpa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
20
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 19:26:00 -
[551] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Querns wrote:The "let's increase ME to 100!" posting in this thread is starting to become reminiscent of the Reprocalypse thread where everyone had their knickers in a twist about not being able to hit 100% refines.
It's just a number. 10 is fine. Not sure how you correlate that. What advantage does the 10 level system have over a 100 level system, besides from being less complex? (although it is still simple enough for anyone remotely intelligent to comprehend) The only people I see getting knickers in a twist at the moment are the goons. As all their acolytes keep showing up all of a sudden, I am guessing they have some vested interest in this. No need to answer that though.
This is an edge case, but under the 10 system, to take a Titan BPO from 9 to 10 takes 27 years of research
This would broken up into manageable chunks that you can deal with if you used a 100 system
CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
156
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 19:28:00 -
[552] - Quote
Querns wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Querns wrote:The "let's increase ME to 100!" posting in this thread is starting to become reminiscent of the Reprocalypse thread where everyone had their knickers in a twist about not being able to hit 100% refines.
It's just a number. 10 is fine. Not sure how you correlate that. What advantage does the 10 level system have over a 100 level system, besides from being less complex? (although it is still simple enough for anyone remotely intelligent to comprehend) The only people I see getting knickers in a twist at the moment are the goons. As all their acolytes keep showing up all of a sudden, I am guessing they have some vested interest in this. No need to answer that though. Conversely, what advantage does a 100 level system have over 10, except increased complexity and better plumage? 1. A more gradual gradient of improvement rather than a steep cliff.
2. Players who have highly researched BPOs will get their current BPOs value better reflected after the change.
3. Going from level 9 to level 10 won't mean locking your BPO and a lab slot away for a number of years without the possibility to cancel and lose all your progress.
4. 100 levels is much more intuitive as people can relate 100 levels to 100%. |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 19:52:00 -
[553] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: 2. Players who have highly researched BPOs will get their current BPOs value better reflected after the change.
No it won't. It will just mean there are an additional 9 ME levels between 9 and 10. The only BPOs it remotely affects are supers, titans and capitals at a push because, as you say, you will be able to do the top few bits without locking em down for years. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
156
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:01:00 -
[554] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: 2. Players who have highly researched BPOs will get their current BPOs value better reflected after the change.
It will just mean there are an additional 9 ME levels between 9 and 10. Which will mean that current BPO value is better reflected.
|
Cultural Enrichment
Jenkem Puffing Association
26
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:07:00 -
[555] - Quote
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
This is an edge case, but under the 10 system, to take a Titan BPO from 9 to 10 takes 27 years of research
This would broken up into manageable chunks that you can deal with if you used a 100 system
This isnt that much of a problem as I doubt anyone has or will ever have a ME 10(or PE 10) titan (or supercarrier) BPO, be it in the current system or the future.
What however sounds like a problem to me is the advantage someone who already owns (and i'm sure someone went through that hassle) a ME 5 (or starts the research for ME5 before the patch) on a capital/supercap BPO will hold.
These people will get a ME (or PE) 9 BPO, which is fine, but for anyone else, getting to the same point would require 9 years and 6 months of research for a titan (rank 3414), 4 years and 9 months for a supercarrier, or a low 2 years and 4 months for a carrier/dread. For comparison, the time it'd take to research a titan BPO to ME5 atm would be a bit below 2 years.
Even with the research bonus time from POS/outpost, are you really fine with giving a comparative advantage to a handful of players that would take almost 4 years (at least) for a new player entering the market to match? |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
56
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:13:00 -
[556] - Quote
Researching, The Future Dev Blog wrote:currently the trend is that T1 blueprints take 20x longer to copy than to build If my math is correct below, your statement appears to be misleading. Do you have any examples of this trend you speak of, other than maybe doomsday devices?
Item -- Copy Time -- Build time -- Copy to Build Ratio Prototype Cloaking Device I -- 3 Hours, 20 Minutes -- 1 Hour, 46 Minutes -- ~1.8868 Moros -- 44 Days, 10 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 11 Days, 20 Hours, 26 Minutes -- ~ 3.7493 Condor -- 1 Hour, 40 Minutes -- 1 Hour, 20 Minutes -- 1.25 Large Shield Extender I -- 1 Minute -- 8 Minutes -- 0.125 Mega Beam Laser I -- 1 Minute -- 8 Minutes -- 0.125 Judgement -- 31 Days, 6 Hours -- 1 Day, 16 Hours -- 18.75 Scourge Torpedo -- 6 Seconds -- 4 Minutes -- 0.025 Avatar -- 177 Days, 18 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 47 Days, 9 Hours, 46 Minutes -- ~3.75 Celestis -- 6 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 2 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 2.5 Tempest -- 15 Hours -- 4 Hours -- 3.75 Catalyst -- 3 Hours, 45 Minutes -- 2 Hours -- 1.875 Cap Booster 400 -- 2 Seconds -- 1 Minute, 36 Seconds -- ~0.0208 Core Scanner Probe I -- 3 Seconds -- 1 Minute, 36 Seconds -- 0.03125 |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2744
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:26:00 -
[557] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:GeeBee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
I thiiiiiink that jobs lasting more than 30 days are fine provided they're single-run. Certainly that works for manufacturing, otherwise it'd be impossible to build titans already. In any case, we're going to make sure that long single-run jobs work fine :)
As to people with ME10 Titan BPOs, that's ~4 years of research time under the current system. I'll go check if any exist, but I doubt it.
its not just that its any ME5 or PE5 is going to be turned into an ME9% or PE18% This means a ME5 titan bpo now has been researched for 1185 Days then turns into ME9% which takes 7336 days to duplicate in the new system. PE5 titan BPO (these may not exist, ME5s do for sure) 1777d before turns into PE18% which would take 11003 days after. The current system is fine, this redesign of the ME/PE system is unneeded, just fix the copy times. It would seem the logic of the 10 level system is to simplify it for new players or players new to industry, but at the same time it penalizes any new industry by excessively harsh research times compared to existing blueprints. Yeah, that's fair. I'll think about this some more. My idea of having the research rank defined as
( research time / 6000 ) ^ 0.75
Solves this issue. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
53
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:32:00 -
[558] - Quote
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:There's lots of talk about T2 BPO holders having an unfair 6.25% boost in production due to copy speed increase...
Doesn't that speed increase improve all of the inventors as well as they copy T1 BPOs? And since you can have many T1 BPOs on infinity copy slots (provided its worth paying the premiums detailed in the costs dev-blog) inventors enjoy vast production capacity expansion over T2 BPO holders by many factors of 6.25%
is the copy time involved with invention so insignificant that the gains in copy time are net-zero because of other factors? I doubt it.
You forget one thing: right now I can build T2 drones directly at the POS with the BPO in station. I get 0.75 timefactor on the drone assembly array and 0.8 timefactor due to my production skilllevel, together that gives a 0.60 timefactor.
The new setup changes this to a 0.75 timefactor on copy speed, after which production time is irrelevant due to parrallel jobs
I lose 1-0.6/0.75 = 0.2 = 20% drones produced per unit time.
I'm in agreement that T2 BPO's are an artefact that should be gone from the game. I also just spent 90B isks on an acolyte II drone BPO. That BPO just lost 18 Billion isks in value, or about 2 years of gaming worth in plexes....... |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:36:00 -
[559] - Quote
In EVE time is advancement. We can go down the road of questioning people's advancement choices. For example we could question the sanity of people who invest skill points in Specialized Weapon Skills at level V. Or we can acknowledge their efforts with a small bonus and move on. It is clear that some people would prefer to eliminate the efforts that others have made and avoid compensation. We could choose to acknowledge the effort to achieve the Specialized Weapon Skills by granting it some bonus, while at the same time devaluing those skills by nerfing the weapon type.
I am sorry we are talking about industry here so lets talk about the changes to the soon to be renamed Material Efficiency. The ability to reduce costs by 25% vs the ability to reduce labor costs on many run jobs by 25% (labor cost 5% x 0.75 = 1.25% for some production). The last level gets you around 0.25% cost benefit now.
Perhaps we are talking about standings, which for an industrialist now effect the market only?
Oh the current topic is research time, another quantity limited by game time purchased. In a number of cases that time will be completely disregarded (unlike the other examples).
My suggestion is to acknowledge the investment and effort made. Just think if this was skills, or removing T2 BPOs both long term investments of time and effort. Nerfing something generates less ill will then avoiding all acknowledgement. |
GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
48
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:46:00 -
[560] - Quote
Alright so roughcut of a theory of how to do a 100pt system would probably be best to smooth it out a bit more, but somewhere in this area.
ME1 is ME50 6000 Seconds Divided across 1-50 ME2 is ME67 6000 Divided across 51-67 ME3 is ME75 6000 Divided across 68-75 ME4 is ME80 6000 Divided across 76-80 ME5 is ME84 6000 Divided across 81-85 ME6 is ME86 6000 Divided across 86-87 ME7 is ME88 6000 per Level Level 88 ME8 is ME89 6000 for Level 89 ME9 is ME90 6000 for level 90 ME10 is ME91 6000 for Level 91 ME11 is ME92 6000 for Level 92 ME12-13 is ME93 6000 for Level 93 ME14-15 is ME94 12000 for Level 94 ME16-19 is ME95 12000 for Level 95 ME20-24 is ME96 24000 For level 96 ME25-32 is ME97 30000 for Level 97 ME33-49 is ME98 48000 for Level 98 ME50-99 is ME99 102000 for Level 99 ME100+ is ME100 306000 for Level 100
ME100 being 0% loss where as previously it was .099%
Definitely starts loosing simplicity, could just scale the time back on the 10 level system. |
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1032
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 20:59:00 -
[561] - Quote
Why are you buffing T2 BPOs? I don't understand the design goal here.
They should be removed. For maximum CCP trollage this should be done lottery style. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
53
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 21:08:00 -
[562] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Why are you buffing T2 BPOs? I don't understand the design goal here.
They should be removed. For maximum CCP trollage this should be done lottery style.
They aren't buffed, the new copyspeed pays out 20% less production runs than current production yields units at a pos
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Proton Power
Evolution Northern Coalition.
17
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Posted - 2014.04.29 21:16:00 -
[563] - Quote
Question, sorry if asked already:
T2 Component BPO's. Currently they need very little research to hit "Perfect". After patch how will that work and what would be optimal now to get them to Perfect after patch? |
John Ustinov Donne
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 21:21:00 -
[564] - Quote
Comrades,
This proposed re-education of the intellectual researching elite will better serve the needs of the Revolution.
I consider with interest the new linear scale with a base resource cost of Y, where ME 0% requires 1.00Y materials and ME 10% requires 0.90Y, such that 0.90Y = X, and X is the original (current) base cost of the materials; and observe that
a) Where a translated 'old' ME value falls between 2 ranks of new ME%, it is rounded to the most favourable (highest) ME%. For example, old ME 9 [10/(1+ME)% waste] or 1.01X amount of materials, is equivalent to 0.909Y amount of materials which is "ME 9.1%" and is rounded to ME 10%.
This efficiency has been wrung from the sweat of the workers of New Eden... WHO SHALL SURELY BE LIBERATED!
and
b) All BPOs of old ME 9 and above will be at perfect efficiency. I proclaim this, a victory for the Rookies of New Eden - rise up against the reactionaries and their running dogs whose BPOs grew fat with decadence and unnecessary research and who now shamelessly seek recompense for their counter-revolutionary activities! Keep the ME scale at 10. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 21:22:00 -
[565] - Quote
Proton Power wrote:Question, sorry if asked already:
T2 Component BPO's. Currently they need very little research to hit "Perfect". After patch how will that work and what would be optimal now to get them to Perfect after patch?
The current plan for Antimater Reactors (small example): Current Research: ME 1 is perfect New Research: ME (or renamed equivalent) 1 is perfect
If you only need a little research rounding will make things work nicely for you again. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 21:33:00 -
[566] - Quote
John Ustinov Donne wrote:Comrades,
This proposed re-education of the intellectual researching elite will better serve the needs of the Revolution.
I consider with interest the new linear scale with a base resource cost of Y, where ME 0% requires 1.00Y materials and ME 10% requires 0.90Y, such that 0.90Y = X, and X is the original (current) base cost of the materials; and observe that
a) Where a translated 'old' ME value falls between 2 ranks of new ME%, it is rounded to the most favourable (highest) ME%. For example, old ME 9 [10/(1+ME)% waste] or 1.01X amount of materials, is equivalent to 0.909Y amount of materials which is "ME 9.1%" and is rounded to ME 10%.
This efficiency has been rung from the sweat of the workers of New Eden... WHO SHALL SURELY BE LIBERATED!
and
b) All BPOs of old ME 9 and above will be at perfect efficiency. I proclaim this, a victory for the Rookies of New Eden - rise up against the reactionaries and their running dogs whose BPOs grew fat with decadence and unnecessary research and who now shamelessly seek recompense for their counter-revolutionary activities! Keep the ME scale at 10.
Yes let everyone join the revolution! Everyone above 5 million skill points should be deleted. We can then restart with fresh servers! Or are you one of those counter-revolutionaries who only want this revolution to go to the point where it helps you?
As an alternative we can acknowledge past investments (in some way) while devaluing (nerfing) them. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3535
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 21:54:00 -
[567] - Quote
When it comes to BPO and especially copies, ME and PE are the differentiators of quality.
Regardless of whether a BPO has no research, some research, is perfect (no material waste), or over-researched, losing the real or apparent quality removes something from game-play.
Worse, if the conversion from old to new M.E./P.E. does not take this into account, literally decades of research effort (time & ISK) will be lost. As well this will greatly devalue the BPO.
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Odoya
Aeon Abraxas Abraxas Industrial
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 21:56:00 -
[568] - Quote
One of the aspects I enjoyed most about T2 production was that it required genuine study. It is one facet of gameplay, in terms of market dynamics, that rewards those who study the market in mathmatical terms. The relationship between T2 product, T2 parts, Moon goos etc is a much more fascinating element of industry than simple T1 production, which has much less room for game play genius.
The T2 process has been what has kept me engaged in Eve. While you won't find me trying to explain this to friends and family, I've spent 100's of hours writing analytical programs around T2 production and even used the output for upper end math course requirements. And, I'm not really a math guy either.
But all of this is to say, math as it pertains T2 market production rewards a playstyle that isn't traditional PVP for those of us who plae compared to others in terms of PVP skills and computer hardware. "Idiot's Guides to T2" production do not really exist because one has to be able to discern the dynamic game play that exists between T2 production cycles and market dynamics. In part, because of the sophisticated math, T2 production isn't subject ot the same flattening effects of game dynamics readily seen in other MMOs because of the math itself (at least in part).
There is an historical basis for this observation because you can trace all the way back to the first MUDs like Richard Bartle's "British Legends" to see that puzzles or other intellectual studies in a game become easy to publish beyond the intent of the game design. We see this with mission reports in Eve and so simplying the math basic is a game spoiler, or risks being a game spoiler. Of course, this is, in part, an argument from some notion of systems justification theory - my hard work and effort to this point loses its competitive edge. It is a loss of game resource, again potentially.
The reason I mention this that other CCP attempts to adjust or balance game play have been mediocre when it comes to balancing T1/ T2 - such as the introduction of additional compoenents to offset the politics of 0.0 moon goos, or these convoluted BPOs that list material requirements in different sections now.
Does this mean the proposed changes will be the same? Maybe not. But the CCP historical track record is dubious, sometimes *great* sometimes mediocre - and what is the commitment to keeping T2 production at the forefront of development goals?
Admittedly obscure, the T2 market place is accessible to those who want to study it and because of this reward for genuine critical thinking, it motivates repeat game play and subscription renewals for at least me.
And, are you really saying you're going to remove remote building from stations into local system POSes? The post seems rather sneaky in that alarming statement. The trade off in game play will be that I spend much more busy time flying around vs figuring out BPO math. Does that make sense? How do you not see that as a game demotivtaor? It's a new form of busy work with no reward. T2 invention has enough busy work as it is.
Consider adding in the ability to batch manage jobs or stack builds better over time, or to see who is hogging up production slots in a station for weeks at a time. Any of those meet the spirit of hyper capitalism. |
Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
120
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 22:26:00 -
[569] - Quote
Two comments from a none industrialist.
Maybe you should take the opportunity you have while making all these changes to do a couple things.
One if you wanted for invention instead of Max Run BPC giving the best chances. Why not change it to a 10 run BPC gives the best chance? Seems like that could smooth out some of the edge cases, and future proof it a bit.
Second, maybe you don't want to have something that takes 2.5 ish times as long as the game has existed to research to perfect. Maybe make it 5-10 years for a max titan. Then adjust everything else downwards in relationship to that new max? |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
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Posted - 2014.04.29 22:32:00 -
[570] - Quote
As far as I know (from the metagame) T2 BPO's take forever to research and it is better to just build of them,
but with the soon to be released new Blueprint research they will be moved to a ten-step system.
At what Rank will CCP put T2 BPO's ?
Eve rule no.1: The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
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