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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 62 post(s) |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
400
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:13:00 -
[271] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Seith Kali wrote:I ask you again, how many do you have? Lots. I find when discussing matters like this it helps to have some first hand experience. I hear a vested interest goes a long way too. Yes, I'm not impartial. But a T2 BPO collection is not going to stop me from supporting good chages.
If I see a good argument for removing or totally nerfing T2 BPOs, I'll support it.
I don't think there is much danger of that though. |
XerXes SX
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:18:00 -
[272] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:
But, in this case, each T2 BPO could be converted to a pile ot T2 BPCs... just to be fair.
Totally agree!
even if from the cost/ISK POV the T2 BPO and the Invention BPO is all most at one level, for copy and invention I need Slots (run an Starbase after patch) and do logistic to carry on the data-cores and so on...
all this is not taken into account IMHO. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:18:00 -
[273] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Seith Kali wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Seith Kali wrote:I ask you again, how many do you have? Lots. I find when discussing matters like this it helps to have some first hand experience. I hear a vested interest goes a long way too. Yes, I'm not impartial. But a T2 BPO collection is not going to stop me from supporting good chages. If I see a good argument for removing or totally nerfing T2 BPOs, I'll support it. I don't think there is much danger of that though. You couldn't possibly be asking us to trust you to make suggestions for T2 BPOs.
First:
Upton Sinclair wrote:It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
Second: This is EVE. Why would we trust anyone?
Perhaps we can settle for constructive arguments? |
Lena Lazair
Khanid Irregulars
102
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:23:00 -
[274] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:I think it's time for Tech 2 BPOs to be deactivated and turned into collectors' items.
T2 BPOs should be recalled by the relevant corp and turned into vouchers for giant sums of LP with those respective corps. Items with no obvious corp (e.g. DCU2) should just get randomly assigned to one of the various industrial NPC corps. These vouchers should be tradeable/sellable on the market or at least by contract.
This way you can compensate people with an appropriate amount for their T2 BPOs (e.g. 50b worth of LP for even some of the "simpler" BPs), but you are not creating ISK since LP stores are a sink and not a faucet. Likewise, if people try to cash out all at once, they are going to crash their own markets.
T2 BPOs finally gone, folks are being compensated for market value of those T2 BPOs, but in a way that doesn't generate new ISK or flood the market all at once. Might screw over some mission runners for a while who are hoarding LP but no one was ever promised "stable" LP values... |
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:24:00 -
[275] - Quote
There are some "shadows" in this devblog I think..
You say you will remove waste in blueprints... but which waste ? Since you are speaking about reprocessing change I can only think it's Extra Materials ? But you are saying after "we're removing the current system of taking "perfect build" requirements" so you speak about the material efficiency skill ?
What is the correct answer ? Both ? Only extra material ?
Btw, the changes are great : things will be far easier to understand (ME10 is perfect, regardless the blueprint you take). I also like one of the idea I saw in the blog getting the "old level info" somewhere for the "collector" aspect for the "great time wasted to research" |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1503
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:28:00 -
[276] - Quote
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Muul Udonii
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
155
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:31:00 -
[277] - Quote
It's probably been said already, but the real industrialists have worked hard to make their BPOs all perfect. So they will be a bit pissed off when their perfect BPOS now need months of work to make perfect again, while the guy who [previously wasted months of time over researching them is now sitting on a pile of perfect BPOs.
Likewise, anyone with a BPO researched (possibly not even perfect) beyond your new maximum will be pissed off that they have wasted time.
If you want to be nice to the idiots (which is what this patch seems to be about) and also not **** off your hardcore players, you've got to come up with a way to transfer ME (or PE for that matter) onto another BPO.
Just do it as a time based exchange; I could exchange 60 days of now unnecessary research in a Caldari Fuel Block BPO into now necessary research into an archon BPO to move it from 2 to say 6.
Any other solution will be unfair as it will penalise the people who followed your rules, and reward those who didn't.
This is the most complex rebalance you have ever attempted, so please make sure you get it right. Thorn Alliance:-á The worst alliance you ever heard of.
But you had heard of us. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1294
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:31:00 -
[278] - Quote
Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Could you explain why that is for Goons T2 BPO's. |
Wil Jackson
RockMart Universal Consortium
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:32:00 -
[279] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Wil Jackson wrote:Will there be more offices in stations? Stations with research capability will clearly be in high demand. Corporations will need to either put their BPOs in a POS or pay hundreds of millions per month in office fees to keep their BPOs in a station.
Wil And? What's the problem with that? The problem is that there are a fixed number of offices in the station. Remember how CCP said they were removing slots? MDD
The problem is that an individual can use said facility without the onerous fees but a corporation cannot. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:32:00 -
[280] - Quote
Althalus Stenory wrote:There are some "shadows" in this devblog I think..
You say you will remove waste in blueprints... but which waste ? Since you are speaking about reprocessing change I can only think it's Extra Materials ? But you are saying after "we're removing the current system of taking "perfect build" requirements" so you speak about the material efficiency skill ?
What is the correct answer ? Both ? Only extra material ?
Btw, the changes are great : things will be far easier to understand (ME10 is perfect, regardless the blueprint you take). I also like one of the idea I saw in the blog getting the "old level info" somewhere for the "collector" aspect for the "great time wasted to research"
Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.
Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).
The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system. |
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Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:34:00 -
[281] - Quote
In order to distinguish their blueprint from the next many researchers over researched their blueprints. While this did make their slightly superior the main effect was that people recognised the extra work put into the blueprint and valued them significantly higher.
When these changes go through CCP will be destroying a significant amount of value associated with these over researched blueprints with no compensation to the holders. Contrast that to holders of T2 blueprint originals who it seems CCP is going out of their way to protect the value of these lottery generated items.
Why are holders of over researched blueprints getting punished (value destroyed) while T2 blueprints have to be protected from these changes. I accept the destruction of a lot of value in my blueprints but at the same time perhaps it is time CCP dramatically reduces the value of the T2 BPO anomalies as well!
It seems CCP is protecting one section of its players (a particularly more established and older set of players) who have and will continue to benefit from items no longer available to newer players. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
400
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:34:00 -
[282] - Quote
Kadl wrote:Perhaps we can settle for constructive arguments? I'd like that.
Historically the nature of the argument between the two camps has been along these lines:
Person A: Remove T2 BPOs because they are ruining the game! Person B: In what way are they ruining the game? Person A: By ruining it! Person B: Would you like to support that claim in some way? Do you have any figures, graphs, maybe a pie chart? Person A: Just remove them already! Person B: I see.
Once you have witnessed this display a thousand times, you get to thinking that the problem is less with T2 BPOs and more with players that don't think things through.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
400
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:35:00 -
[283] - Quote
Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Well, that let the cat out of the bag. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7112
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:37:00 -
[284] - Quote
I'll elaborate on what Aryth just said, as we've been bouncing this around for a few hours.
Currently anyone sensible produces their t2 module/ammo bpo in an Amarr station (.7 build time modifier) or a pos (.75 build time modifier iirc).
It is currently possible, but a stupid idea, to upgrade a minmatar station to tier 3 to get a .4 build time modifier (this may not actually apply to ammo). It's dumb because it's only for modules, and you get limited slots (and for a while you'd max out at like ten total slots) and essentially double your bpo's output. This already happens with t2 ships, which are built in tier 3 amarr stations and obtain that .4 built time modifier.
So what's going to happen? Well, the minmatar station is dumb...but a tier 3 gallente copying factory is not. You'll get a .4 time modifier on your t2 copy job, which is equivalent to the .4 built time modifier for any t2 bpo at all: you can essentially double its production by making two runs in the time it used to take you to build one run. And everyone is going to be making these tier3 gallente copyhouses for their supercaps.
So all those markets where BPOs didn't dominate? Well, what happens when you double the volume of production you can manage with a t2 bpo? I'm guessing "nothing good". And that's what's about to happen: every DCII bpo will be producing double what it produces today.
Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1504
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:38:00 -
[285] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Could you explain why that is for Goons T2 BPO's.
The optimal place for the BPOS will now be either the Null Tier3 stations. These were not built previously in null as the ROI was hilariously bad on it/and or it jacked up other upgrades you might want to do.
Come patch day dozens of these are going to start springing up across null. If you are a T2 BPO holder you move them to null or sell them to someone who can.
On the funny side, in theory if you value BPOs by payback time they worth double later on. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7112
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:38:00 -
[286] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Well, that let the cat out of the bag. it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1294
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:39:00 -
[287] - Quote
Thanks for putting that out in the light Weasilor. Combined with the fact that the profit margins for any T2 BPO are higher, this is going to make for a significant change in the flow of profit to T2 BPO holders. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1504
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:40:00 -
[288] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Well, that let the cat out of the bag. it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale
He isn't kidding. We spent hours looking at T2 bpos today. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3527
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:42:00 -
[289] - Quote
Quote:This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%. With my vast BPO collection, I have to state that this is unacceptable.
This GREATLY penalizes capital BPO, and is way too generous on all other BPO.
I think it would be more appropriate to use a direct scaling.
With Microsoft Excel functions, something like:
New ME = FLOOR( Current ME / FLOOR( 2 * MAX( base material counts ) * base waste, 1 ) * 10 + 0.5, 0)
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
441
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:43:00 -
[290] - Quote
Leveraging a 60%+ increase to the profitability of a T2 BPO due to lowering the copy time is going to drive an immense amount of invention to unfeasibility. This cannot be allowed to be brought to Tranquility in its current state.
My recommendation is to "bake in" the T3 Gallente Outpost bonus to copying speed into the T2 BPO, such that if you copy at a T3 Gallente Outpost, you receive copies at the same rate that the currently proposed math suggests they arrive (the math that does not take T3 Gallente Outposts into consideration.) This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
297
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:43:00 -
[291] - Quote
Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Care to elaborate? (Even privately?)
MDD |
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:44:00 -
[292] - Quote
Kadl wrote: Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.
Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).
The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system.
Actually, it's currently "perfect materials + waste factor skill + waste factor material" we are moving, to a "build cost system", I understood this point, but will it still use the waste factor skill (base on the material efficiency skill, previously production efficiency) or not ?
If I understood well, it will still be used, and the "wastage" is just, as you said, the material wastage. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5613
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:45:00 -
[293] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Weaselior wrote:This base change is actually increasing prices for things and you'll get more waste under the current math until you get to perfect. See: http://i.imgur.com/pjHil5G.pngNotice that the blueprint at ME1 currently (to be converted to ME5%) is actually increasing in price. When you multiply the base amount by 1.11 (repeating), then subtract 5%, you don't wind up in the same place. Formula for column D is just round(B*1.11111111111111111), formula for E is .95*D Now, once you get to ME10%, they are indeed the same - but when you take my ME1 titan bpo, and give me a ME5% titan bpo, I'm gaining waste. I got 105% of the build cost in the current system, but what I'm getting in the new system is 105.55555555555555% of the old build cost (.95/.9) Yeah, this is true, due to the way the math concertinas up and down. Kadl wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:I'll check on recons and command ships. My understanding of the T2 market is that individual items tend to be either completely BPO-dominated or largely invention dominated. In principle I totally recognize that increased supply of cheaper goods can have an impact, but in practice there are (as I understand it) very few cases where this *actually* matters. Doesn't it actually matter in all cases? In all cases, T2 BPO holders will increase their production rates by 6.25%. We can cover the spectrum of all possible changes. 1) There are many inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners will increase their market share by 6.25% x current market share, because they can produce more. That will reduce the number of inventors in that market. 2) There are no inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners use their increased production to forestall the day when inventing becomes useful (when demand increases above the T2 BPO production capacity). 3) There are currently only a few inventors because the demand is barely above T2 BPO production capacity. This is your "actually" matters case, where invention no longer becomes profitable at the current time. Similarly to case 2 we can expect invention to happen again in the future when demand increases. In all of those cases the increased production matters. The immediate effects are different but that should not stop us from considering all of them. In 1), this is only true if the market size is absolutely fixed, which seems implausible. In 2), it doesn't matter any time soon at least because most of those markets are not going to significantly expand any time soon In 3, yes this is the problem case, but I'm not aware of any markets (except possibly recons and command ships) where this is true. So yes, it always "matters" for a given value of "matters", but my concern is "when does it matter enough in practice that we actually need to change something", and the answer seems to be "very rarely". (To be clear, we're still considering not adjusting T2 BPOs and/or adjusting them less, but the above reasoning still largely holds IMO :))
To illustrate this point even with a Recon ship, I make Pilgrims and sell them in Amarr.
I can make, with my BPO, around 1 Pilgrim a day.
This doesn't begin to put even a slight dent in the demand for even this less common Recon.
I believe people have a very unclear idea of how many ships are produced by T2 BPO's and are vastly over estimating that number... either that or are thinking there are far more of those T2 BPO's in production than there actually are. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
441
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:45:00 -
[294] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Care to elaborate? (Even privately?) MDD It's simple -- the math that was being presented did not take into account the fact that a fully upgraded Gallente outpost can copy a BPO 60% faster than normal. When they slashed the copy times of T2 BPOs, they did not take into account this extra bonus. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
402
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:45:00 -
[295] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Weaselior wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Well, that let the cat out of the bag. it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale He isn't kidding. We spent hours looking at T2 bpos today. Same here.
I was thinking it was too good to be true anyway. Outpost changes were bound to come along and scupper it all. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1504
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:47:00 -
[296] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Aryth wrote:Weaselior wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Well, that let the cat out of the bag. it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale He isn't kidding. We spent hours looking at T2 bpos today. Same here. I was thinking it was too good to be true anyway. Outpost changes were bound to come along and scupper it all.
Well that and eventually CCP woulda figured it out and realized they just patched in the biggest nerf to invention ever. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:51:00 -
[297] - Quote
Althalus Stenory wrote:Kadl wrote: Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.
Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).
The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system.
Actually, it's currently "perfect materials + waste factor skill + waste factor material" we are moving, to a "build cost system", I understood this point, but will it still use the waste factor skill (base on the skill material efficiency, previously production efficiency) or not ? If I understood well, it will still be used, and the "wastage" is just, as you said, the material wastage.
Ah yes clarity. I believe you are correct, but CCP could confirm that. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5613
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:53:00 -
[298] - Quote
Querns wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Care to elaborate? (Even privately?) MDD It's simple -- the math that was being presented did not take into account the fact that a fully upgraded Gallente outpost can copy a BPO 60% faster than normal. When they slashed the copy times of T2 BPOs, they did not take into account this extra bonus. Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1294
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:55:00 -
[299] - Quote
Querns wrote:Leveraging a 60%+ increase to the profitability of a T2 BPO due to lowering the copy time is going to drive an immense amount of invention to unfeasibility. This cannot be allowed to be brought to Tranquility in its current state.
My recommendation is to "bake in" the T3 Gallente Outpost bonus to copying speed into the T2 BPO, such that if you copy at a T3 Gallente Outpost, you receive copies at the same rate that the currently proposed math suggests they arrive (the math that does not take T3 Gallente Outposts into consideration.) Why not just remove T2 BPO's so this doesn't come up every single time they try to touch industry. Give everyone who currently holds a T2 BPO a collectors item and 36*1 Month runs worth of BPC's at the same ME/PE(TE) levels. If three years of production worth that can be run on multiple lines rather than just one, and a collectors item isn't good enough for someone.... those people will never be satisfied unless they get pure bonuses with no nerfs ever so don't even bother trying to please them. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
449
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:55:00 -
[300] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Querns wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Care to elaborate? (Even privately?) MDD It's simple -- the math that was being presented did not take into account the fact that a fully upgraded Gallente outpost can copy a BPO 60% faster than normal. When they slashed the copy times of T2 BPOs, they did not take into account this extra bonus. Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.
err.. build from the bpc? Oh look 60% more profit? Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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