Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
MIstress Saki
|
Posted - 2006.05.19 23:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: MIstress Saki on 19/05/2006 23:51:16 The patch notes do not mention the promised ô+5% damage increaseö for the tachyon beams. Is it a mistake, will we wait longer for it or has the change be skiped?
|
Malken
|
Posted - 2006.05.19 23:53:00 -
[2]
/me thinks they conveniently forgot about it.
Quote:
[05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
|
KilROCK
|
Posted - 2006.05.19 23:55:00 -
[3]
They don't need a boost. cough cough I don't care what you mumble about the 'thing' they might not be worth fitting over megabeam 'damage wise' but the range is what you fit them for.
No need to make tachyons geddon even more damaging..
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Malken
|
Posted - 2006.05.19 23:59:00 -
[4]
and also no need to boost the megathron by reducing grid and cpu use for neutrons either and also no need to boost the minmatars by removing any cap use from their guns.
they said they would change it we are just wondering where it went.
Quote:
[05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
|
Nyphur
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 00:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Malken and also no need to boost the megathron by reducing grid and cpu use for neutrons either
The grid bonus is only for medium neutron blasters.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
O'Sirius
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 03:07:00 -
[6]
Sounds like they gave in to the whining.
|
Dust Angel
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 04:09:00 -
[7]
maby they just forgot to mention it? _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
|
The ArchWarder
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 04:23:00 -
[8]
Nothing a Tracking disrupter II cant fix
|
Malthros Zenobia
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 05:24:00 -
[9]
Maybe they figured it wasn't needed?
|
Othon Von'Salsa
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 07:03:00 -
[10]
NO, it's not possible !!!
MEGA BEAM = -1% damage VS tachyon
Tachyon ask a lot of grid, cpu, capa for shoot, tracking are too low, range are a LITTLE to high = TACHYON is !!! UNUSABLE !!! actually because the mega beam are better.
I'm sorry but raven, minmatar and gallente are boosted but NEVER NEVER the amarr !!! Since, three year, amarr have receive ONLY nerfl and a small correction on the grid/cpu of tachyon because after the tachyon was more unusable that now !
|
|
Novarei
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 07:40:00 -
[11]
thron is the new geddon
+--------------------------------------------+
|
Bellac
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 08:28:00 -
[12]
Well as far as i can tell, once these new patches come out nobody will be using lasers at all. It happend before once where many people who flew amarr ships put hybrid weapons on them. These gave out more damage than the lasers even though you got no bonuses for fitting them.
Even now I think lasers are underpowered. Look on the market place at beams, and you will see that most of them are available at less than the mineral cost. even named tech one turrets are worth buying and recycling. This must mean that they are not selling. And this can only mean that they are rubbish.
Other than ships that get a s[pecific laser damage bonus, I predict the same happening again. All my training time put into tech 2 large beams and pulses has been wasted.
|
Eximius Josari
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 08:31:00 -
[13]
I love my lasers.
Click Above |
Schlesia Magnus
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 08:40:00 -
[14]
What I want to see is a confirmation from Tux
1) if the changes to tachyon's are skiped or not
2) if they are skiped, a short comment why
CCP and Tux, please give us a short comment regarding this topic. It is only 2-3 min of writing.
|
Forsch
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 09:32:00 -
[15]
Lasers have become a PvE weapon. They are convenient because they don't use ammo. Makes hunting in 0.0 much easier. I gave up on lasers in PvP. Against Minmatar ships they are horribly ineffective anyway. Good thing I trained hybrids I guess.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Panheimer
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 09:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Malken and also no need to boost the megathron by reducing grid and cpu use for neutrons either
The grid bonus is only for medium neutron blasters.
hm, are you sure?
|
Zarks
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 13:56:00 -
[17]
there you see what whining can do __________________________________________________ |
Commander Thrawn
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 14:07:00 -
[18]
yeah this does blow. As if lasers were underpowered enough it get worse and worse all the time
there is barly no point to used them anymore. Other then the zealot and geddon, its gonna be hybrids i think.
|
BootStrap
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 14:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Panheimer
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Malken and also no need to boost the megathron by reducing grid and cpu use for neutrons either
The grid bonus is only for medium neutron blasters.
hm, are you sure?
From the patch notes:
The power grid need of all heavy neutron blasters has been decreased by 10%.
|
Etherios
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 15:13:00 -
[20]
Hold ur horses all... i mean see the changes before u all whine...
Atm TQ 3 HSII + maxed skills = 10.1~ Damage Mod on the Tachs II Atm SiSi 3 HSII + maxed skills = 10.79~ Damage Mod on the Tachs II
I dont know if this almost 0.7 add in the damage mods is the increase Tux said ...
Also nobody will use lasers after Patch? HuH? u crazy?
Try and figure the damage a fleet set up Arma or Apoc is doing.... Example Arma tach II + 3 HS II = 5.16 RoF ... use gleam and also use aurora and see the damage... then compare...
Tachs are bigger cpu/pg wise than beams so this extra damage is much needed and logical...
Now if u want close range bs then dont go amarr simple.. the days of the Gankeddons are long gonne ... Nerf bat has pwned them...
Amarr is the WAY .. the True Way...
True sight isn't given to all that look for it.
|
|
Maggot
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 16:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: KilROCK They don't need a boost. cough cough I don't care what you mumble about the 'thing' they might not be worth fitting over megabeam 'damage wise' but the range is what you fit them for.
No need to make tachyons geddon even more damaging..
Signed
|
Keta Min
|
Posted - 2006.05.20 16:44:00 -
[22]
so mega beams do too much dmg? nerf them tbh.
|
Malken
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 00:17:00 -
[23]
Tux can we get a answer and explanation pls?
Quote:
[05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
|
Rexthor Hammerfists
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 00:42:00 -
[24]
an answer would b nice. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
|
Wizie
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 00:45:00 -
[25]
Whether needed or not, the real question here is why has it been omitted without any mention from the DEVs.
One of the key things that people hate about patches are silent nerfs and changes. If something is changed or not changed (when it was supposed to be), some mention should be made of why it happened.
|
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 00:58:00 -
[26]
imo the boost was ok, it does afterall require 2 extra low slots to fit!
before anyone shows DPS graphs also look at the geddens gun cap use, its pretty high and u cant run guns constantly!
also if t2 ammo is nerfed which it needs to be, rails will have teh optimal advantage, tempests the higher burst and more importantly teh higher bse dmg of long range ammo!!!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Malken
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 03:51:00 -
[27]
well i only got a problem with the fact that they are boosting everything else in both dmg and the reductions of fittings and reductions of cap use for all other races. yet a little dmg boost for the guns that uses the most amounts of cap and has the highest fitting requirements of all guns in the game gets swept under the rug with not a single mention.
i think the devs, especially Tux have had very little gametime in amarr ships to be frank. in his graph he used a geddon with megapulses as a example for a short range geddon. he compared this in dmg output to a mega with the new fitting for blaster and such. what he failed to comprehend imo is that the mega now can fit a very high dmg setup and a good tank using blasters. a geddon that wants a good tank cant use megapulse2's, not enough fittings for a decent tank then. the geddon pilot has to use the dual heavy pulse2 wich has less dmg output so his graph is flawed. if the geddon pilot uses megapulse2's he propably can get up to those numbers that the graph showed but he wont have as good tank as any other gallente ship or caldari ship at the close range battles then. and if it wasnt the end of it amarr does only 2 types of dmg, EM and Thermal. all armor got their highest resist at base values on EM dmg.
with the "balancing" by the dev team on amarr ships i wonder why there is a amarr empire still in existance? heck the minmatars arent dumb at all, if i were them id send in a pack load of vagabonds going at 3k per second with EM and thermal resists in the high 90's and finish them off because it would be so damn easy.
and now both amarr BS has been relegated to a halfassed, easy to tank against sniper wich will have no cap at all if they shoot a few rounds with tachyons and only do 1% more dmg then with megabeams at the cost of 2 lowslots less to fit anything useful in.
however im glad i have 10mill+ in spaceship command as i will be able to fly megathrons also but my heart still lies with amarr ships. just to bad that the devs doesnt even have the decency to explain why they backed down on this little change.
its sad actually, RIP Amarr Empire.
Quote:
[05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
|
Mnengli Noiliffe
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 06:04:00 -
[28]
whats up with you people, seems like you'd rather whine on these forums begging for dev's response all day than just go on sisi running release candidate and check the changes yourself...
ok i've been nice enough to do it for ya, here are the results, TQ: Tachion Beam Laser I, damage mod 4.25x Tachion Beam Laser II and Modulated, damage mod 5.1x Singularity: Tachion Beam Laser I, damage mod 4.5x Tachion Beam Laser II and Modulated, damage mod 5.4x
|
Darken Two
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 06:37:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe whats up with you people, seems like you'd rather whine on these forums begging for dev's response all day than just go on sisi running release candidate and check the changes yourself...
ok i've been nice enough to do it for ya, here are the results, TQ: Tachion Beam Laser I, damage mod 4.25x Tachion Beam Laser II and Modulated, damage mod 5.1x Singularity: Tachion Beam Laser I, damage mod 4.5x Tachion Beam Laser II and Modulated, damage mod 5.4x
Lol lot of people are lookin very foolish now.
Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
|
Malken
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 07:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe whats up with you people, seems like you'd rather whine on these forums begging for dev's response all day than just go on sisi running release candidate and check the changes yourself...
ok i've been nice enough to do it for ya, here are the results, TQ: Tachion Beam Laser I, damage mod 4.25x Tachion Beam Laser II and Modulated, damage mod 5.1x Singularity: Tachion Beam Laser I, damage mod 4.5x Tachion Beam Laser II and Modulated, damage mod 5.4x
thats not the whole point. there are alot of stuff on the test server all the time. when they say they will change an item and then removes the thread about it and leaves it out from the patchnotes and refuses to talk about it usually means that the change will not make it in to the patch nomatter what is on the testserver or not.
Quote:
[05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
|
|
MIstress Saki
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 07:47:00 -
[31]
I do not have start a "whining" treat. I only wanted to know , as paying customer, if the promised change will be included or not, thatÆs all.
If the changes are included at the test server, thatÆs good but almost everybody with experience knows that changes at the test server does not automatically mean that they will be transferred to TQ. All I want is a short answer, yes no and if more time is available why..
|
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 08:33:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Othon Von'Salsa
Tachyon ask a lot of grid, cpu, capa for shoot, tracking are too low, range are a LITTLE to high = TACHYON is !!! UNUSABLE
My entire alliance would disagree. Not to mention everyone using Large Blasters or any kind of Artillery has a MUCh harder time fitting their guns than you ever do fitting Tachs.
Quote: I'm sorry but raven, minmatar and gallente are boosted but NEVER NEVER the amarr !!!
Because they don't need it. Wait, wait....when did Minmatar get a boost?
|
|
Tuxford
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 08:39:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Tuxford on 22/05/2006 08:40:11 I'm pretty sure we just forgot to put it in the patchnotes.
Yeah just not in the patch notes, I'll have that fixed. _______________ |
|
Bacchuss
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 08:41:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tuxford I'm pretty sure we just forgot to put it in the patchnotes.
i think you also forgot to put in patch notes: Drone fix: no mating, 2.5km scoop range and use of mwd manual for drones
**************************************
"What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!"
**************************************
|
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 08:47:00 -
[35]
All beam lasers need a reduction in grid requirements.
It's virtually impossible to fit them on cruisers or frigates.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
|
Tuxford
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 08:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Rodj Blake All beam lasers need a reduction in grid requirements.
It's virtually impossible to fit them on cruisers or frigates.
I know medium beams pretty much don't fit on anything. I'll take a look at it. _______________ |
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Rodj Blake All beam lasers need a reduction in grid requirements.
It's virtually impossible to fit them on cruisers or frigates.
I know medium beams pretty much don't fit on anything. I'll take a look at it.
but thy are soo much better than anything else anyway
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
|
Tuxford
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:09:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nafri
but thy are soo much better than anything else anyway
Not really though. Considering the racial bonuses they get, amarr cap, caldari range, gallente damage and minmatar rof they seem on par with the other long range turret and not especially better in any way. The other long range turret are however pretty hard to fit as well but my impression is that medium beams are harder to fit on amarr ships than 150mm on gall and caldari ships, although before I open up this can of worm (which I kind of already have) then I need to go all mathematical on this stuff. _______________ |
|
Nifel
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:10:00 -
[39]
Hmm... medium beams fit fine on the zealot o_O. Are there any other ships you want them on apart from the absolution which doesn't have any problems either iirc :p.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:11:00 -
[40]
erm what? it's a damn sight easier to fit medium beams than it is to fit medium artillery. the zealot can fill all 4 guns, mwd and med rep and have 34pg and 204pg for filling the last slots, while the muninn can fit 4 out of 5 guns before needing a fitting mod.
|
|
Malken
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:12:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tuxford Edited by: Tuxford on 22/05/2006 08:40:11 I'm pretty sure we just forgot to put it in the patchnotes.
Yeah just not in the patch notes, I'll have that fixed.
ty
Quote:
[05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
|
|
Tuxford
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sarmaul erm what? it's a damn sight easier to fit medium beams than it is to fit medium artillery. the zealot can fill all 4 guns, mwd and med rep and have 34pg and 204pg for filling the last slots, while the muninn can fit 4 out of 5 guns before needing a fitting mod.
Medium beams would actually be small guns though. Perfectly aware of how hard it is to fit Muninn though. _______________ |
|
Brute Helmet
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:14:00 -
[43]
Its true though, its easier to fit a full rack of 280 II on a wolf or a rack of 150 II on a Enyo than a full rack of medium beam II on a Retribution. Considering that the Retribution is the frigate with most available grid ingame thats kinda silly, isnt it ?
The Medium beam lasers only need a small, say 2-4MW, reduction in grid use and they are a viable option again. Nothing else needs to be done. Damage, tracking and range are ok in comparison to others.
_____________________________
Support the MGRL - uncover your six |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:15:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Sarmaul erm what? it's a damn sight easier to fit medium beams than it is to fit medium artillery. the zealot can fill all 4 guns, mwd and med rep and have 34pg and 204pg for filling the last slots, while the muninn can fit 4 out of 5 guns before needing a fitting mod.
Medium beams would actually be small guns though. Perfectly aware of how hard it is to fit Muninn though.
gah you know what I mean - the top-tier beams in the medium size catagory
stupid naming scheme
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:33:00 -
[45]
Hmm if you compare 280 II howitzers with Medium Beam lasers:
Fitted on a wolf the 280 II has:
11,25km Optimal Range and does 19.844 DPS (thats with EMP).
When you fit 4 of those on a wolf you are left with 13.2 PG
Fitted in a Retribution the Medium Beam Laser II has:
11,25km Optimal Range and does 29,649 DPs (thats with multi).
When you fitt 4 of those you will have 6.9 PG left.
Basicly the 280 II on the Wolf will do about 66% of the Damage of the Medium Beam Laser II on the Retribution. If you consider that both will be able to fit 4 guns nearly equally good (Both are armor tankers) and both have 1 highslot left to fit I hardly see a problem for the Medium Beam Laser II.
If you consider the tracking, the advantage of the Medium Beam Laser II will become even greater. A Target of 40m with a speed of 500m at 10km is getting hit by a Medium Beam Laser II for about 89.5% Same Target will get hit by a 280 II for about 77.52%. The Medium Beam Laser II will track 151% as good as the 280 II.
So please tell me the problem?
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:34:00 -
[46]
increase small arti damage \o/
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:37:00 -
[47]
And before some smartass says that the retribution has a damage bonus, and thats so rare for amarr ships.
Only 1 Matari ship of each size gets a double damage bonus anyway, the other ships you just dont see cause thy suck so increadible much. Only some tech2 versions get double damage on both.
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:38:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sarmaul increase small arti damage \o/
Increase all arty DPS, reduce all arty fitting.
Reduce AC ammo consumption.
Ahh, its good to be back.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Originally by: Sarmaul increase small arti damage \o/
Increase all arty DPS, reduce all arty fitting.
Reduce AC ammo consumption.
Ahh, its good to be back.
you'd left yet?
|
FFGR
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:43:00 -
[50]
Let's hope you will look the grid issues with AC next _____________________________
siggys v. 0.5 |
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:44:00 -
[51]
Originally by: FFGR Let's hope you will look the grid issues with AC next
shut up shut up shut up!!!
|
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:48:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sarmaul
you'd left yet?
Feels like it, last night was the first time I played in weeks.
You never really leave the forums, though :)
Incidentally, this means no vagabonds or muninns for anyone.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:50:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 22/05/2006 09:50:46
Originally by: Testy Mctest Incidentally, this means no vagabonds or muninns for anyone.
bastard
|
Brute Helmet
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 09:51:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 22/05/2006 09:39:29 Hmm if you compare 280 II howitzers with Medium Beam lasers:
Fitted on a wolf the 280 II has:
16,875km Optimal Range and does 19.844 DPS (thats with EMP).
When you fit 4 of those on a wolf you are left with 13.2 PG
Fitted in a Retribution the Medium Beam Laser II has:
11,25km Optimal Range and does 29,649 DPs (thats with multi).
When you fitt 4 of those you will have 6.9 PG left.
Basicly the 280 II on the Wolf will do about 66% of the Damage of the Medium Beam Laser II on the Retribution. If you consider that both will be able to fit 4 guns nearly equally good (Both are armor tankers) and both have 1 highslot left to fit I hardly see a problem for the Medium Beam Laser II.
If you consider the tracking, the advantage of the Medium Beam Laser II will become even greater. A Target of 40m with a speed of 500m at 10km is getting hit by a Medium Beam Laser II for about 89.5% Same Target will get hit by a 280 II for about 77.52%. The Medium Beam Laser II will track 151% as good as the 280 II.
So please tell me the problem?
The problem is that 6.9/70 = 10% grid left, 13.2/60 = 22% grid left on a wolf. Pretty significant difference when you consider that both Wolf and Retribution are armortankers by design. DPS isnt the whole story either, falloff of lasers is a lot less than on artilleries. And yes, falloff matters a lot in frigate combat as the targets are small and fast.
If we disregard the t2 ships and t2 guns, the t1 variant of the medium beam is equally hard to fit on any frigate. _____________________________
Support the MGRL - uncover your six |
Joerd Toastius
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 10:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Nafri So please tell me the problem?
The problem is that all those numbers are irrelevant because nobody uses them, because they just don't fit on the majority of "sensible" setups. Med beams are rarely used by anyone because of the fitting requirements, which effectively deprives the Amarr of their high-end long-range frig weapon. Yes, maybe - maybe, and this would have to be proven by looking at use on all frigs and not just the one that's set up to do damage and tank and nothing else - there's a case for a damage nerf along side a fitting boost, but as it is something probably should be done about the fact that Med Beams just don't get used.
|
Eximius Josari
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 10:25:00 -
[56]
I want the Tachyon Equivalent Pulse Laser
Click Above |
Epsillon
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 10:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Tuxford Perfectly aware of how hard it is to fit Muninn though.
So... can we expect some changes to the Muninn and/or artillery? Go on, you know you're feeling generous!
Originally by: Tuxford then I need to go all mathematical on this stuff.
Hit the dirt!!
_____________________________________________
|
Theron Gyrow
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 10:40:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tuxford Edited by: Tuxford on 22/05/2006 08:40:11 I'm pretty sure we just forgot to put it in the patchnotes.
Yeah just not in the patch notes, I'll have that fixed.
Tuxford, could you please just tell us how this is good for the game balance, or at least that this won't negatively affect it?
I do worry, because after this, a sniping Armageddon will do about 1/3 more damage than the best non-Amarr sniper out till 187 km or so. (Mega with 4 damage mods vs. 'geddon with 3 mods. Mega has one more low slot free, but that's not too useful.)
-- Gradient's forum |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:01:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Brute Helmet
Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 22/05/2006 09:39:29 Hmm if you compare 280 II howitzers with Medium Beam lasers:
Fitted on a wolf the 280 II has:
16,875km Optimal Range and does 19.844 DPS (thats with EMP).
When you fit 4 of those on a wolf you are left with 13.2 PG
Fitted in a Retribution the Medium Beam Laser II has:
11,25km Optimal Range and does 29,649 DPs (thats with multi).
When you fitt 4 of those you will have 6.9 PG left.
Basicly the 280 II on the Wolf will do about 66% of the Damage of the Medium Beam Laser II on the Retribution. If you consider that both will be able to fit 4 guns nearly equally good (Both are armor tankers) and both have 1 highslot left to fit I hardly see a problem for the Medium Beam Laser II.
If you consider the tracking, the advantage of the Medium Beam Laser II will become even greater. A Target of 40m with a speed of 500m at 10km is getting hit by a Medium Beam Laser II for about 89.5% Same Target will get hit by a 280 II for about 77.52%. The Medium Beam Laser II will track 151% as good as the 280 II.
So please tell me the problem?
The problem is that 6.9/70 = 10% grid left, 13.2/60 = 22% grid left on a wolf. Pretty significant difference when you consider that both Wolf and Retribution are armortankers by design. DPS isnt the whole story either, falloff of lasers is a lot less than on artilleries. And yes, falloff matters a lot in frigate combat as the targets are small and fast.
If we disregard the t2 ships and t2 guns, the t1 variant of the medium beam is equally hard to fit on any frigate.
Check locking ranges and tell me who falloff of a 280 II should have any use? Were talking about ships which can lock 20-30 km. A 280 II at 25km is soo deep into falloff its tracking and damage is pointless.
people forget that falloff affects tracking a lot.
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
Joerd Toastius
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:04:00 -
[60]
I thought falloff just affected raw damage output as a multiplier?
Also, AFs have 40-50k base targetting range.
|
|
Epsilon 1
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:05:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Tuxford Edited by: Tuxford on 22/05/2006 08:40:11 I'm pretty sure we just forgot to put it in the patchnotes.
Yeah just not in the patch notes, I'll have that fixed.
Tuxford, could you please just tell us how this is good for the game balance, or at least that this won't negatively affect it?
I do worry, because after this, a sniping Armageddon will do about 1/3 more damage than the best non-Amarr sniper out till 187 km or so. (Mega with 4 damage mods vs. 'geddon with 3 mods. Mega has one more low slot free, but that's not too useful.)
And you fit 7 of your ******* tachs on a geddon without rcus now dont you
Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:06:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Nafri So please tell me the problem?
The problem is that all those numbers are irrelevant because nobody uses them, because they just don't fit on the majority of "sensible" setups. Med beams are rarely used by anyone because of the fitting requirements, which effectively deprives the Amarr of their high-end long-range frig weapon. Yes, maybe - maybe, and this would have to be proven by looking at use on all frigs and not just the one that's set up to do damage and tank and nothing else - there's a case for a damage nerf along side a fitting boost, but as it is something probably should be done about the fact that Med Beams just don't get used.
I choosed both "large" aussault ships for this. If you check ships like stilleto and Claw you can suggest a reasonable 280 II fitting if you want.
Ceptors just arent designed for the long range weapons, thy lack grid for this. Assault frigs are capable of fitting them, but mostly the long range weapons still suck (especially 280 II and medium beams) cause the ships which are able to fit them are not able to fit anything decent except the guns, and lack midslots to have any bigger use. 280 II Wont hit anything which is not webbed and smaller than a Cruiser, Medium Beams dont need webber, but Retribution has only 1 midslots. Both ships have basicly the same problem.
People who pilots wolfs try to compensate this by using Autocannons, which are easy to fit, but still every ceptor will laugh at you (again, you wont hit a ceptor without webbing it). Retribution has still the same problem when using pulse lasers, but even less choses what to fit.
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:07:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Rodj Blake All beam lasers need a reduction in grid requirements.
It's virtually impossible to fit them on cruisers or frigates.
I know medium beams pretty much don't fit on anything. I'll take a look at it.
Great, thanks Tux.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:08:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Epsilon 1
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Tuxford Edited by: Tuxford on 22/05/2006 08:40:11 I'm pretty sure we just forgot to put it in the patchnotes.
Yeah just not in the patch notes, I'll have that fixed.
Tuxford, could you please just tell us how this is good for the game balance, or at least that this won't negatively affect it?
I do worry, because after this, a sniping Armageddon will do about 1/3 more damage than the best non-Amarr sniper out till 187 km or so. (Mega with 4 damage mods vs. 'geddon with 3 mods. Mega has one more low slot free, but that's not too useful.)
And you fit 7 of your ******* tachs on a geddon without rcus now dont you
RCUs dont matter much nowadays, you cant fill your lows with just damage mods anyway. Especially for bigger groups tachs shine since thy provide exellent Alphastrike, DPS and range.
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
Theron Gyrow
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:11:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Epsilon 1
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Tuxford Edited by: Tuxford on 22/05/2006 08:40:11 I'm pretty sure we just forgot to put it in the patchnotes.
Yeah just not in the patch notes, I'll have that fixed.
Tuxford, could you please just tell us how this is good for the game balance, or at least that this won't negatively affect it?
I do worry, because after this, a sniping Armageddon will do about 1/3 more damage than the best non-Amarr sniper out till 187 km or so. (Mega with 4 damage mods vs. 'geddon with 3 mods. Mega has one more low slot free, but that's not too useful.)
And you fit 7 of your ******* tachs on a geddon without rcus now dont you
No, two RCU 2s are needed. That's how Mega can have one more damage mod and still have one more low slot free. If you have some suggestion what to fit in those slots that will make Mega a contender, I'd be very glad to hear what it is.
-- Gradient's forum |
Meridius
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:18:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Nafri
RCUs dont matter much nowadays, you cant fill your lows with just damage mods anyway. Especially for bigger groups tachs shine since thy provide exellent Alphastrike, DPS and range.
But suck ass against plates. Hybrid/proj don't have that problem.
- _____
|
Hoshi
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:29:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius I thought falloff just affected raw damage output as a multiplier?
Also, AFs have 40-50k base targetting range.
Falloff effects hit chance, at optimal + falloff only 50% of your shots will hit. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Forsch
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:34:00 -
[68]
Tracking Enhancers, Signal Amplifiers, Plates, Dmg Control, Hardeners. There is lots that you can stick into low slots which is not useless.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Kenan Waroria
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:43:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Originally by: Othon Von'Salsa
Tachyon ask a lot of grid, cpu, capa for shoot, tracking are too low, range are a LITTLE to high = TACHYON is !!! UNUSABLE
My entire alliance would disagree. Not to mention everyone using Large Blasters or any kind of Artillery has a MUCh harder time fitting their guns than you ever do fitting Tachs.
Have you tested? So 2xRCU II is much better than haveing to fit a CPU? How many CPR to sustain your cap do you need on an Tempest or an Megathron compare to an Apoc/Geddon? To fit 6x1400mm II you need one PDU II (unless you have AWU lvl5, but then you can¦t fit anything else). All hybrids use a bit to much cap, blasters will get fixed and I¦m not sure how big of a problem that is with Rails.
Problem with Blasters is that everyone "needs" to fit a MWD, injector AND dual Large rep! Big chance I can fit that to an apoc or arma and still be able to fit any damage mods.
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Quote: I'm sorry but raven, minmatar and gallente are boosted but NEVER NEVER the amarr !!!
Because they don't need it. Wait, wait....when did Minmatar get a boost?
Artys got a damage boost some time ago (more than a year I think). This will be the first boost to lasers since the grid on lasers was lowered some ~2years ago and if I¦m not wrong the cap on lasers was lowered at some point.
I don¦t think that Hybrids have been changed much at all. Blasters have been out in the cold for some time (or perhaps people that insists to compare it to an overpowered Raven?). -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =- |
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 11:51:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Kenan Waroria
Have you tested? So 2xRCU II is much better than haveing to fit a CPU? How many CPR to sustain your cap do you need on an Tempest or an Megathron compare to an Apoc/Geddon?
Megathron pilots would argue with you about just how sustainable their cap is when using Blasters or Rails (ask Gronsak).
As for Artillery being sustainable, yes, that's an advantage we have. But in a battle where cap being sustainable doesn't matter (ie, most fleet battles), we're left out in the cold and that 'benefit' no longer applies.
Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 22/05/06! |
|
Kenan Waroria
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 12:15:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Originally by: Kenan Waroria
Have you tested? So 2xRCU II is much better than haveing to fit a CPU? How many CPR to sustain your cap do you need on an Tempest or an Megathron compare to an Apoc/Geddon?
Megathron pilots would argue with you about just how sustainable their cap is when using Blasters or Rails (ask Gronsak).
Plz don¦t bring in Gronsak, I¦ve never seen such biased posts. I also wrote that "Hybrids use a bit to much cap", do you read that as "Hybrids are fine"? I "think" I mean that they use to much and therefor should have the cap use lowered (just as Blasters now will have).
Originally by: Testy Mctest As for Artillery being sustainable, yes, that's an advantage we have. But in a battle where cap being sustainable doesn't matter (ie, most fleet battles), we're left out in the cold and that 'benefit' no longer applies.
If you don¦t fit CPR on a Apoc/Arma it will not be sustainable. You¦re able to fit something else than CPR if you want to (probably more useful). -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =- |
Wizard
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 12:40:00 -
[72]
Look at all the minmatar whiners in this thread, im sure it was 100% solely to do with tachs when i clicked open on topic
I hereby show you other whiners who would rather agrue than actually find strenghs for your chosen ship to the new topic tab, by clicking on this ingenious option you are now bestowed with the power to ask the whole community for a setup to make up for your inferiour interlect( or plain lazyness ).
I find all ships in game to be balanced and yes i can fly ships other than amarr.
If i could go back in time i personally would of been minmatar, in actual pvp experiance they are by far best IMH.
|
Hellspawn01
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 12:41:00 -
[73]
From the sticky:
Originally by: Tuxford
Tacyon beam I've already posted a bit about this. Its getting a boost so now it does about 5% more damage over time than mega beam laser.
From the current patch notes:
Quote: Tachyon beam damage multiplier increased by about 4%.
**Ship lovers click here** |
Backdoor Bandit
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 12:42:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Wizard Look at all the minmatar whiners in this thread, im sure it was 100% solely to do with tachs when i clicked open on topic
This is a Minmatar thread now, Begone you Amarr dogs. -------------
------------- Sig edited, Pod or Post is baned on the forums - Xorus ^Whatever^
|
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 12:44:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 From the sticky:
Originally by: Tuxford
Tacyon beam I've already posted a bit about this. Its getting a boost so now it does about 5% more damage over time than mega beam laser.
From the current patch notes:
Quote: Tachyon beam damage multiplier increased by about 4%.
DoT and damage multiplier are not the same thing.
RTFM :P
Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 22/05/06! |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 12:44:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Backdoor Bandit sig
oh you *****!
|
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 12:45:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Megathron pilots would argue with you about just how sustainable their cap is when using Blasters or Rails (ask Gronsak).
As for Artillery being sustainable, yes, that's an advantage we have. But in a battle where cap being sustainable doesn't matter (ie, most fleet battles), we're left out in the cold and that 'benefit' no longer applies.
cap on hybrids are a massive problem, and you say it doesnt effect fleet performance, i say it does and it does a lot, specilly when using t2 ammo i usually end up fitting a cap injecter with my sniper setup becase cap is such a prob!!!!
you say that having no cap guns isnt a big advantage in fleet, perahps in fleets its less of an advnatage but how often are u in fleets compaired to smaller gangs? where cap = life!
Originally by: Kenan Waroria
Plz don¦t bring in Gronsak, I¦ve never seen such biased posts.
biased posts my ass! u mean, pls dont being in gronsak he doesnt agree with my BS
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 13:40:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Megathron pilots would argue with you about just how sustainable their cap is when using Blasters or Rails (ask Gronsak).
As for Artillery being sustainable, yes, that's an advantage we have. But in a battle where cap being sustainable doesn't matter (ie, most fleet battles), we're left out in the cold and that 'benefit' no longer applies.
cap on hybrids are a massive problem, and you say it doesnt effect fleet performance, i say it does and it does a lot, specilly when using t2 ammo i usually end up fitting a cap injecter with my sniper setup becase cap is such a prob!!!!
you say that having no cap guns isnt a big advantage in fleet, perahps in fleets its less of an advnatage but how often are u in fleets compaired to smaller gangs? where cap = life!
Originally by: Kenan Waroria
Plz don¦t bring in Gronsak, I¦ve never seen such biased posts.
biased posts my ass! u mean, pls dont being in gronsak he doesnt agree with my BS
How could I quit with posts of this quality around?
Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 22/05/06! |
Lucre
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 13:45:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Gronsak also if t2 ammo is nerfed which it needs to be, rails will have teh optimal advantage, tempests the higher burst and more importantly teh higher bse dmg of long range ammo!!!
And meanwhile an Amarr ship with T2 ammo has no choice but to carry 2000 rounds per gun per ammo type (and how many do you need for a typical fleet action?) and so takes a huge financial hit compared to the rail or projectile users both on fitting-out and if the ship go boom.
Not sure that aspect of T2 ammo was anticipated. Okay, laser users have always lived with crystals being an expensive loss, but T2 just makes this silly...
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 13:46:00 -
[80]
gronsak, when was the last time you were in a proper fleet?
|
|
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 13:49:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Gronsak on 22/05/2006 13:51:03
Originally by: Sarmaul gronsak, when was the last time you were in a proper fleet?
not often, do solo a lot, small gangs more [3-4 people] and once in a while a mix fleet of 15-20 people!
biggest "fleet" ive been in was probably about 50vs50, why do u ask?
btw, even when there are only a few targets, say 4-5BS i run out of cap before the last one pops!
i take it this is about me saying that megas/geddens cap probs effect them in fleet, well they definitly do! on top of that when was the last time u had to cripple your tempest fitting with 5 cap mods just to run ur guns for anti station ect!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 13:50:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Sarmaul gronsak, when was the last time you were in a proper fleet?
not often, do solo a lot, small gangs more [3-4 people] and once in a while a mix fleet of 15-20 people!
biggest "fleet" ive been in was probably about 50vs50, why do u ask?
btw, even when there are only a few targets, say 4-5BS i run out of cap before the last one pops!
But in a fleet battle, the battle would be over before you had cap issues.
Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 22/05/06! |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 13:55:00 -
[83]
exactly
according to quickfit you can run 7 425mm IIs, 3 sensor boosters, one tracking comp, 2 tracking enhancers and 3 magfields for 5 minutes with maxed cap skills.
|
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 14:01:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Sarmaul exactly
according to quickfit you can run 7 425mm IIs, 3 sensor boosters, one tracking comp, 2 tracking enhancers and 3 magfields for 5 minutes with maxed cap skills.
start with 80% total cap, u know general warping around and keeping sensor boosters/tracking comps does that
on top of that use javelin or spike for comparision!
it sure as hell dont last 5mins and i know i got those max cap skills u speak of!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 14:06:00 -
[85]
I used spike ammo for the tests.
I just ran them 3 times in quickfit and every time it's 299 seconds, which is 1 second off 5 minutes. remove 20% of your cap and it's approx 4 minutes Please use appropriate sigs -Abdalion |
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 14:09:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Sarmaul I used spike ammo for the tests.
I just ran them 3 times in quickfit and every time it's 299 seconds, which is 1 second off 5 minutes. remove 20% of your cap and it's approx 4 minutes
and after those 4mins i take it your feked? when i snipe even small groups i have plenty of trouble keeping cap up, infact its so bad last time i was in any meaningfull sniper setup i had to seletively shoot by waiting for targets to get as low a trans on me as possible because i could not run the feking guns!
have u ever warped out becase you got so little cap ur guns are not running? becase i have plenty of times!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 14:30:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Sarmaul I used spike ammo for the tests.
I just ran them 3 times in quickfit and every time it's 299 seconds, which is 1 second off 5 minutes. remove 20% of your cap and it's approx 4 minutes
and after those 4mins i take it your feked? when i snipe even small groups i have plenty of trouble keeping cap up, infact its so bad last time i was in any meaningfull sniper setup i had to seletively shoot by waiting for targets to get as low a trans on me as possible because i could not run the feking guns!
have u ever warped out becase you got so little cap ur guns are not running? becase i have plenty of times!
Maybe talk with your fleet commander, cause 4 mins is enough time to kill about 24 BS. More wont get killed anyway.
The only problem where the cap is an issue for fleets is shooting stations, which is done by dreads anyway.
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
Kaleeb
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 14:44:00 -
[88]
I swear some people think blasters got a damage boost in the patch
|
Asuzke Mitsugi
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 14:57:00 -
[89]
I for one and glad they are making Tachs a tad better than Megabeams. My Modulated Beam set is a lot nicer than my Modulated Tach set over all.
|
Kenan Waroria
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 15:05:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Kaleeb I swear some people think blasters got a damage boost in the patch
Actually Megathron got an damage boost if you fit a damage mod instead of a CPU. Personally I think it¦s good, short range = bigger risk.
But if the Megathron got it¦s mass lowered and better agility it would be a lot better as a Blaster ship. Not as fast as an Tempest, but will get to it¦s max speed faster. -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =- |
|
Hon Kovell
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 15:05:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 22/05/2006 09:39:29 Hmm if you compare 280 II howitzers with Medium Beam lasers:
Fitted on a wolf the 280 II has:
16,875km Optimal Range and does 19.844 DPS (thats with EMP).
When you fit 4 of those on a wolf you are left with 13.2 PG
Fitted in a Retribution the Medium Beam Laser II has:
11,25km Optimal Range and does 29,649 DPs (thats with multi).
When you fitt 4 of those you will have 6.9 PG left.
Are you sure about your figures? 56 grid for the retri base --> 70 with engineering V 18 grid for each Medium Beam Laser II --> 16.2 with AWU V (Oh how I wish)
That gives 5.2 grid left with max skills, or 8 less than the wolf. That's a pretty substantial amount of grid difference.
If you add an MAPC so that the retri can fit AB II + SAR II then the retri will have 0.7 grid left with max skills and the wolf 8.7. AWU V is needed for the retri to fit even just ab and rep (t2) while the wolf can fit them with AWU 0 and still have grid to spare (but no launcher).
Would long range ammo be a better comparison since we're not fitting beams to engage at short range? That gives 10.824 for the wolf using your figure above and 12.354 for the retri. The wolf can also fit a launcher but be left with a similar 0.6 grid to the retri.
|
Denrace
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 15:06:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Denrace on 22/05/2006 15:10:10 To be honest, I gave up on using lasers a LONG time ago.
The Thermal/EM damage only is horribly ineffective versus nearly EVERYTHING.
Thermal/Kinetic is much better as it breaks armour tanks more easily while still being effective at busting shields.
While I can blast away shields pretty quickly (except a shield tanked ship, which has high thermal/EM resistances anyway) my damage becomes woefully pathetic the second I hit into armour.
The only possible exception being a GankGeddon. But no worries here, because the (frankly) unneeded changes to the BThron will most likely make it obsolete too.
I wish I had trained up Gallente or Minmatar instead of Amarr.
Lasers don't suck, but Thermal/EM damage is a joke.
Dont tell me "Use something else, you nub" because Ive already started training Caldari
P.S, Yay for Tachyon dmg increase!
Oh, and fitting Medium Beam Laser II's on a Retribution is only slightly less useful than a peddle wheelchair.
Den
________________________________________
|
Meridius
|
Posted - 2006.05.22 20:32:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Hon Kovell
Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 22/05/2006 09:39:29 Hmm if you compare 280 II howitzers with Medium Beam lasers:
Fitted on a wolf the 280 II has:
16,875km Optimal Range and does 19.844 DPS (thats with EMP).
When you fit 4 of those on a wolf you are left with 13.2 PG
Fitted in a Retribution the Medium Beam Laser II has:
11,25km Optimal Range and does 29,649 DPs (thats with multi).
When you fitt 4 of those you will have 6.9 PG left.
Are you sure about your figures? 56 grid for the retri base --> 70 with engineering V 18 grid for each Medium Beam Laser II --> 16.2 with AWU V (Oh how I wish)
That gives 5.2 grid left with max skills, or 8 less than the wolf. That's a pretty substantial amount of grid difference.
If you add an MAPC so that the retri can fit AB II + SAR II then the retri will have 0.7 grid left with max skills and the wolf 8.7. AWU V is needed for the retri to fit even just ab and rep (t2) while the wolf can fit them with AWU 0 and still have grid to spare (but no launcher).
Would long range ammo be a better comparison since we're not fitting beams to engage at short range? That gives 10.824 for the wolf using your figure above and 12.354 for the retri. The wolf can also fit a launcher but be left with a similar 0.6 grid to the retri.
Heh that Wolf has a full 5.625km more range + loads of more falloff. It also has a 2nd midslot - _____
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.23 08:18:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Hon Kovell
Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 22/05/2006 09:39:29 Hmm if you compare 280 II howitzers with Medium Beam lasers:
Fitted on a wolf the 280 II has:
16,875km Optimal Range and does 19.844 DPS (thats with EMP).
When you fit 4 of those on a wolf you are left with 13.2 PG
Fitted in a Retribution the Medium Beam Laser II has:
11,25km Optimal Range and does 29,649 DPs (thats with multi).
When you fitt 4 of those you will have 6.9 PG left.
Are you sure about your figures? 56 grid for the retri base --> 70 with engineering V 18 grid for each Medium Beam Laser II --> 16.2 with AWU V (Oh how I wish)
That gives 5.2 grid left with max skills, or 8 less than the wolf. That's a pretty substantial amount of grid difference.
If you add an MAPC so that the retri can fit AB II + SAR II then the retri will have 0.7 grid left with max skills and the wolf 8.7. AWU V is needed for the retri to fit even just ab and rep (t2) while the wolf can fit them with AWU 0 and still have grid to spare (but no launcher).
Would long range ammo be a better comparison since we're not fitting beams to engage at short range? That gives 10.824 for the wolf using your figure above and 12.354 for the retri. The wolf can also fit a launcher but be left with a similar 0.6 grid to the retri.
Heh that Wolf has a full 5.625km more range + loads of more falloff. It also has a 2nd midslot
But only a bit more than half the damage. Figure out what is better.
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
MIstress Saki
|
Posted - 2006.05.23 08:22:00 -
[95]
Thanks Tux for your answer
|
smallgreenblur
|
Posted - 2006.05.23 09:51:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Nafri stuff...
But only a bit more than half the damage. Figure out what is better.
But but but the wolf has 92/10/25/65 armor resists! It must be uber, because it's immune to em damage! The retri only has 60/80/62/35 with almost twice the dps. It's clearly broken, and all the people I see flying them are idiots. Boost ammar! They need explosive crystals and no cap use.
Anyway moving on it's been amusing reading through this thread seeing how many people have no idea what they were talking about. I particularly like the guy that complained in the first page that 'named t1 lasers' were cheaper on market than they were to build, therefore lasers must suck. With compelling arguments such as this, it's good to have testy back
Ammar whiners (I honestly had no idea there were any, it's a bit like calidari complaining that the raven is borked) have got their entirely unneeded damage boost, now stfu already and let the gallente and minmatar keep the limelight till we approach something like equal status
sgb
pointless posts a speciality.
C6 is recruiting ... visit www.c6-eve.com or join channel c-6 for details. |
Bellac
|
Posted - 2006.05.23 15:44:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Denrace Edited by: Denrace on 22/05/2006 15:10:10 To be honest, I gave up on using lasers a LONG time ago.
The Thermal/EM damage only is horribly ineffective versus nearly EVERYTHING.
Thermal/Kinetic is much better as it breaks armour tanks more easily while still being effective at busting shields.
While I can blast away shields pretty quickly (except a shield tanked ship, which has high thermal/EM resistances anyway) my damage becomes woefully pathetic the second I hit into armour.
The only possible exception being a GankGeddon. But no worries here, because the (frankly) unneeded changes to the BThron will most likely make it obsolete too.
I wish I had trained up Gallente or Minmatar instead of Amarr.
Lasers don't suck, but Thermal/EM damage is a joke.
Dont tell me "Use something else, you nub" because Ive already started training Caldari
P.S, Yay for Tachyon dmg increase!
Oh, and fitting Medium Beam Laser II's on a Retribution is only slightly less useful than a peddle wheelchair.
Den
This just about sums up my feeling too. Except I am not currently retraining for something else. On paper lasers may seem powerful with high DPS, but in practice they are probably the most gimped turrets in game due to the limited damage types and the high fitting and capacitor requirements.
I can do just as much damage (maybe more) in practice with my taranis with 150 rails on it as I can with my crusader with med beam 2 fitted. The big diference here is that I have small hybrid turret lvl 3 compared to small laser turret 5 and small beam turret specialisation 4. Surely this should not be.
It is obviously not just me that feels this way either as laser turrets are just not selling any more.
|
Forsch
|
Posted - 2006.05.23 15:51:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Bellac It is obviously not just me that feels this way either as laser turrets are just not selling any more.
Well I'm using them for NPCing but those ships don't die as fast.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.23 15:55:00 -
[99]
Originally by: smallgreenblur gallente and minmatar keep the limelight till we approach something like equal status
damn, there are still people around who believe minmatar will one day reach equal status?
click here for a seizure |
Joerd Toastius
|
Posted - 2006.05.23 16:10:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Bellac
Originally by: Denrace Edited by: Denrace on 22/05/2006 15:10:10 To be honest, I gave up on using lasers a LONG time ago.
The Thermal/EM damage only is horribly ineffective versus nearly EVERYTHING.
Thermal/Kinetic is much better as it breaks armour tanks more easily while still being effective at busting shields.
While I can blast away shields pretty quickly (except a shield tanked ship, which has high thermal/EM resistances anyway) my damage becomes woefully pathetic the second I hit into armour.
The only possible exception being a GankGeddon. But no worries here, because the (frankly) unneeded changes to the BThron will most likely make it obsolete too.
I wish I had trained up Gallente or Minmatar instead of Amarr.
Lasers don't suck, but Thermal/EM damage is a joke.
Dont tell me "Use something else, you nub" because Ive already started training Caldari
P.S, Yay for Tachyon dmg increase!
Oh, and fitting Medium Beam Laser II's on a Retribution is only slightly less useful than a peddle wheelchair.
Den
This just about sums up my feeling too. Except I am not currently retraining for something else. On paper lasers may seem powerful with high DPS, but in practice they are probably the most gimped turrets in game due to the limited damage types and the high fitting and capacitor requirements.
I can do just as much damage (maybe more) in practice with my taranis with 150 rails on it as I can with my crusader with med beam 2 fitted. The big diference here is that I have small hybrid turret lvl 3 compared to small laser turret 5 and small beam turret specialisation 4. Surely this should not be.
It is obviously not just me that feels this way either as laser turrets are just not selling any more.
Yeah, but the MB2 is ridiculously fitting-hungry. Try comparing MP2s to the equivalent small blasters - at least then you have roughly equivalent playing field.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |