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The Ultimate Solution to the T2 BPO Problem Announced by CCP

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Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 5625	Posted - 2014.05.04 02:30:00 - [91] - Quote If this comes to pass, I'll adapt and adjust as I always have. Invention has always been far more lucrative for me than my T2 BPO's have anyway... which is precisely the same boat all others producing with them are in. The only markets where T2 BPO's out pace Invention in terms of percentage of supply are those items that move very slowly in comparison with the rest of the market (my Pilgrim BPO is an excellent example of this). It's kind of hard to become filthy rich with a slow manufacturing BPO of an item that isn't particularly popular. Someone brought to my attention some figure a dev dragged out a couple of years ago that said Pilgrim's produced from invention only made up 20% of their total sales, with the rest coming from T2 BPO's. Now we all know that Pilgrims are not exactly in high demand, so I suppose that might still be true. But consider that Pilgrims are about to be buffed. If this process turns out well their popularity will sky rocket, while the amount produced from BPO's will not change. The lions share will be created from Invention, just like 2/3rds of the products for which T2 BPO's are available. Now what factor do you think would hold those prices (which will inevitably rise) in check? Yeah, you guessed it... T2 BPO producers. In fact, the main factor keeping the prices in line on all T2 items are the fact that some influence on pricing is exerted from the slow but steady supply of these items created from BPO's. So you folks go right ahead making things "fair" for everyone at the greedy T2 BPO owners expense, it won't bother me a bit. In fact I'll be highly amused as prices start trending steadily upwards on all T2 items, especially on my soon to be buffed Pilgrims and for the ever popular Guardians that I also produce. I'll be just fine. Will you? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 5709	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:10:00 - [92] - Quote Pilgrims are about to be buffed? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
firepup82 EVE Protection Agency Bloodline. 0	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:21:00 - [93] - Quote How are they broken? Just sounds like a bunch if Indy people mad that they don't have one. Exactly how are they broken?
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 5627	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:30:00 - [94] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Pilgrims are about to be buffed? Yep, they announced that Recons are getting reworked in the ship balancing discussion at fan fast. The Pilgrim in particular was described as being one of the ones most in need of buffing. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 5627	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:35:00 - [95] - Quote firepup82 wrote: How are they broken? Just sounds like a bunch if Indy people mad that they don't have one. Exactly how are they broken? Apparently they long for the olden days, where a good HAC could cost from 300 to 500mil and up. Of course, back then you'd be on a waiting list for it for a few months as well. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 5709	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:39:00 - [96] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Pilgrims are about to be buffed? Yep, Fozzie and Rise announced that Recons are getting reworked next in the ship balancing discussion at Fanfest. The Pilgrim in particular was described as being one of the ones most in need of buffing. Glad to hear that, I use that ship. The entire class could use EHP buffs, however, not just the Pilgrim. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 5260	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:43:00 - [97] - Quote firepup82 wrote: How are they broken? Just sounds like a bunch if Indy people mad that they don't have one. Exactly how are they broken? Prince Kobol wrote: Goons want your T2 BPO'S Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing. Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing. Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are. CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon.. x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.
Netan MalDoran Yumping Amok Apocalypse Now. 8	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:45:00 - [98] - Quote CCP, why remove T2 BPO's? Are they majorly hurting anyone or are you just succumbing to the whines of the carebear indys who are playing with penny profits? I mean really, it's like you just deleting the Goonswarm alliance just because half of the players of EvE hate them, but I don't see you doing that because there would be an outrage and there would be a permanent burn Jita. If you do need to compensate, the likes of 3 free Plex/month sounds nice to the BPO holders.
sloany House Of Serenity. Disband. 8	Posted - 2014.05.04 03:45:00 - [99] - Quote Weaselior wrote: ...snip... citation needed The solution to T2 BPOs was invention, and it's done its job. You just need to see the price reduction of Cap Recharger IIs pre and post invention to see this. This whole topic and been trashed out over the years in many threads and I'm yet to read a cohesive argument why any further action should be taken. T2 BPOs have lost their power, there are only a few markets left where they still dominate, and this is due to low demand. If anything the action CCP should take is to buff these items to increase demand and encourage invention participation. T2 BPOs are something for industrialist to aspire to, just as PvP alliances aspire to own a titan. However they are not the be all and end all of the game.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 5628	Posted - 2014.05.04 04:20:00 - [100] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: firepup82 wrote: How are they broken? Just sounds like a bunch if Indy people mad that they don't have one. Exactly how are they broken? Prince Kobol wrote: Goons want your T2 BPO'S Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing. Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing. Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are. CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon.. x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form. I believe you scored a direct hit. Especially when you consider upcoming changes to null sec industry and copy creation. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.

Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 5628	Posted - 2014.05.04 04:23:00 - [101] - Quote sloany wrote: Weaselior wrote: ...snip... citation needed The solution to T2 BPOs was invention, and it's done its job. You just need to see the price reduction of Cap Recharger IIs pre and post invention to see this. This whole topic and been trashed out over the years in many threads and I'm yet to read a cohesive argument why any further action should be taken. T2 BPOs have lost their power, there are only a few markets left where they still dominate, and this is due to low demand. If anything the action CCP should take is to buff these items to increase demand and encourage invention participation. T2 BPOs are something for industrialist to aspire to, just as PvP alliances aspire to own a titan. However they are not the be all and end all of the game. What a dull game it would be without something to aspire to. Yes even industrialists need something to aspire to. This is not hello kitty island adventure, or some other game where everyone is treated equally. This is Eve Online. The world is cruel, and you don't get what you want, but you have the opportunity to. If anyone wants to remove T2 BPOs from the game, buy them out and trash them, or infiltrate corporations who own them and steal them. Yep, the only danger with T2 BPO's was the possibility of a cartel developing. Invention prevents this from happening on all but the lowest demand items, markets which would be pointless to control anyway. In return now T2 BPO's act as a buffer that prevents invention products from escalating too high in price by providing just enough product at a reasonable price to keep the market from inflating too much on high demand items. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 9504	Posted - 2014.05.04 04:27:00 - [102] - Quote So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away". "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 5628	Posted - 2014.05.04 04:42:00 - [103] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away". No, actually just the opposite. T2 BPO's are decent but can easily be surpassed by a decent Invention chain in terms of income. While I wouldn't be pleased if they were removed, I'd be fine... they are far from my most lucrative income stream. Plus I fully realize that I literally own nothing in EVE. They, and everything else in the game, ultimately belongs to CCP. I will, however, point it out when people spout myth as fact. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Nariya Kentaya State Protectorate Caldari State 1233	Posted - 2014.05.04 04:52:00 - [104] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away". No, actually just the opposite. T2 BPO's are decent but can easily be surpassed by a well thought out Invention chain in terms of income. While I wouldn't be pleased if they were removed, I'd be fine... they are far from my most lucrative income stream. Plus I fully realize that I literally own nothing in EVE. They, and everything else in the game, ultimately belongs to CCP. I will, however, point it out when people spout myth as fact, as well as when people are shooting themselves in the foot. Assets shoudl NEVER be deleted/recycled, or any variation of the above. Made inert/unusable? sure, mayeb with compensation if theyre nice, but collectors collect colectables for a reason, not to make money off them, but to say they own a limited piece of EVE history.
Vera Algaert Republic University Minmatar Republic 1382	Posted - 2014.05.04 05:33:00 - [105] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Goons want your T2 BPO'S Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing. Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing. Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are. CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon.. x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form. Goons own many T2 BPOs (gotta spend that tech money somehow). But fighting the nerf would be a very ungoony thing to do. So goons support and publicize the nerf and rely on you to prevent it.
mkint 1178	Posted - 2014.05.04 05:34:00 - [106] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away". That's pretty much what it boils down to. Some people (usually BPO owners) seem to disagree that it's a bad thing that a single person can fulfill 100% of all demand for half a million players. Those people who promote that agenda are wrong. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 10575	Posted - 2014.05.04 05:36:00 - [107] - Quote Vera Algaert wrote: Goons own many T2 BPOs (gotta spend that tech money somehow). But fighting the nerf would be a very ungoony thing to do. So goons support and publicize the nerf and rely on you to prevent it. yeah no our finance team isn't dumb enough to have invested in them Twitter: @EVEAndski TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 5267	Posted - 2014.05.04 05:37:00 - [108] - Quote mkint wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away". That's pretty much what it boils down to. Some people (usually BPO owners) seem to disagree that it's a bad thing that a single person can fulfill 100% of all demand for half a million players. Those people who promote that agenda are wrong. Please provide at least 2 specific examples where this is happening right now. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.
mkint 1178	Posted - 2014.05.04 05:46:00 - [109] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: mkint wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away". That's pretty much what it boils down to. Some people (usually BPO owners) seem to disagree that it's a bad thing that a single person can fulfill 100% of all demand for half a million players. Those people who promote that agenda are wrong. Please provide at least 2 specific examples where this is happening right now. I don't have the in depth data to know. I just read dev quotes. And have been reading every dev quote and dev blog for the past 6 years. Grayscale said just last week that T2 BPOs fall into two categories. Either they either completely dominate the production, or they represent a minor percentage of production. It was part of the feedback on the industry dev blogs. Keep up. A couple years ago, if I recall the dev posts correctly, I think the biggest examples were HACs and HICs, though I could be misremembering that. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 5267	Posted - 2014.05.04 06:07:00 - [110] - Quote mkint wrote: Doc Fury wrote: mkint wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away". That's pretty much what it boils down to. Some people (usually BPO owners) seem to disagree that it's a bad thing that a single person can fulfill 100% of all demand for half a million players. Those people who promote that agenda are wrong. Please provide at least 2 specific examples where this is happening right now. I don't have the in depth data to know. I just read dev quotes. And have been reading every dev quote and dev blog for the past 6 years. Grayscale said just last week that T2 BPOs fall into two categories. Either they either completely dominate the production, or they represent a minor percentage of production. It was part of the feedback on the industry dev blogs. Keep up. A couple years ago, if I recall the dev posts correctly, I think the biggest examples were HACs and HICs, though I could be misremembering that. Hopefully you can understand that any rational person would need to see some actual evidence of this happening before they could accept your claims as nothing but anecdotal. You have made your claims quite authoritatively at least twice about this, please show us where you got your information exactly and name at least 2 Tech II items in game right now where a single person can fulfill 100% of all demand for 500,000 players. I'd like to be able to see for myself what this great injustice is, and how broken it is. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.

Gridloader Limitless Capabilities 3	Posted - 2014.05.04 08:57:00 - [111] - Quote T2 BPOs should be added to market same as T1 BPOs.... to be available for everyone.... maybe even for titan prise.... but for everyone
Rain6637 Team Evil 14325	Posted - 2014.05.04 09:13:00 - [112] - Quote it's a pretty underhanded move to announce T2 BPOs will be done away with, any length of time before the change is made. as they devalue due to the announcement, the fair compensation is reduced. I think a fair compensation would be a snapshot of their values prior to the announcement, in BPCs or liquid ISK. that said, I don't think they need to go anywhere. their viability as a production option is zero for anyone who bought them, and people who were the original lottery owners should continue to realize their benefit. In fact I think it would be a shame to remove T2 BPOs. like any other rare item, they should continue to be used, or traded, or collected. don't touch the T2 BPOs, they have guardian-vexor status. edit: OR... bring the lottery back. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Rainfleet on Twitch \| Rainfleet Mk III-á
Big Lynx Do you even Exist. Darwins Lemmings 415	Posted - 2014.05.04 09:20:00 - [113] - Quote Has anyone a link to the a record of the stream where that T2 bpo issue is discussed? thank you
Rain6637 Team Evil 14325	Posted - 2014.05.04 09:23:00 - [114] - Quote why did lotteries stop anyway? i'm thinking they could have avoided this situation by letting them continue. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Rainfleet on Twitch \| Rainfleet Mk III-á
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1321	Posted - 2014.05.04 09:51:00 - [115] - Quote Assuming this isn't Goonswarm trying to stampede a market yet again. 10*6 month run worth of BPC's would be more than enough compensation. This is the equivalent of 5 years of production, yet it will take far less than 5 years for it's effects to leave the market since they can run parallel lines rather than only one. Personally I think you could drop at low as about 3 years split over 10 copies and still be quite fair. Also a cosmetic only item saying they owned a T2 BPO in some way would also be fair. This means that only the latest people to buy BPO's & only if they bought BPO's at stupidly high prices would be out of pocket. A Dev released some market figures back a bit showing a lot of the ones actually traded had a 3-5 year return at the time on investment. A few bizarrely had negative returns, which means people were inventing them at below cost, since there is no way a BPO can cost more to build than an invented BPC if any research has been done at all.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 11850	Posted - 2014.05.04 09:53:00 - [116] - Quote With the changes to POS'es and BPOs having to be in the POS I know my cost just went up since I will then (if I continue to use the BPO) use stations for manufacturing. With that in mind, I there's even less advantage over inventors that already run 11 jobs simultaneously over my 1 job. tbh the ROI on the BPOs are years, most inventors (and ultimately going producer) are thinking short term, not 5+ years (from the views I've gotten anyway) which makes the BPOs even less of a threat. I get CCP's reason to remove it, but ultimately feel that the reasons for players wanting them removed comes down to jealousy (but yes I agree, the lottery system was pretty ** to begin with). I would vote for them to stay because of two main reasons, they are a part of the EVE history, one that may have been unfair, but still represent an era that kinda made pilots a huge power having one (or more) - then getting shafted by new and aggressive inventors cornering markets, and secondly I want them to stay because they fulfill a role of industrialists, the long-term planning industrialist that isn't looking at fast ISK, but rather speculating of good ROI over a years of time. I can't say that I see many gamers around going into a game with a 5 year plan - except in EVE! /c GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Twitter @Chribba**

Aluka 7th 139	Posted - 2014.05.04 10:13:00 - [117] - Quote I find it funny that Goon starts the thread of T2 BPO sky falling thus crashing the price of those BPOs and then other Goons buy now cheaper T2 BPOs which are strategical item for their 0.0 alliance. Good job! Nice timing considering that in summer expansion T2 BPOs are getting boosted! Based on facts in dev blogs: - T2 BPO will get faster copy time so no need to risk it in 0.0 you can just bring copies to 0.0 and keep it in highsec - Invented BPOs with ME -1, -2, -3, ... are getting worse regarding materials because of new base material level for multiplying with ME will be 1.1111x higher - new cost structure (teams, tax, installation cost) will raise the cost of invention making T2 BPO more profitable. - T2 BPO which mostly have ME and PE higher then 10 will now be perfect in new system thus having material cost reduced even more. You guys are the kings of manipulation! o7
Sabriz Adoudel Mission BLITZ 2797	Posted - 2014.05.04 10:47:00 - [118] - Quote Not sure if this is an honest post or a market manipulation, but the evidence will be clear in a day or two. I say, set the T2 BPOs to -200% time efficiency (unimproveable) as a first nerf. They'll still be profitable to own. Invention will offer better ISK per production line hour, but T2 BPOs will offer better margins and returns per player minute spent managing jobs. Then in the future, replace the BPOs with 10 BPCs that are +10% material efficiency and +20% time efficiency ('perfect'), each with enough runs for one month's production (rounded up). Set the universe on fire - then sell the survivors ash. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com.
Pubbie Spy GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 34	Posted - 2014.05.04 11:06:00 - [119] - Quote Anyone dumb enough to buy BPOs in TYOOL 2014 on the assumption they were going to remain profitable for a decade deserves to be laughed out of the room, and a few bittervets crying because their isk printing machine gets taken away shouldn't prevent CCP from finally cleaning up the mess they created years ago.
Big Lynx Do you even Exist. Darwins Lemmings 415	Posted - 2014.05.04 11:09:00 - [120] - Quote Big Lynx wrote: Has anyone a link to the a record of the stream where that T2 bpo issue is discussed? thank you plz



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