The Ultimate Solution to the T2 BPO Problem Announced by CCP

You know who else had an ultimate solution?

I'll be surprised if this happens any time soon. They'll get nerfed before they disappear.

You know who else had an ultimate solution?

I'll be surprised if this happens any time soon. They'll get nerfed before they disappear.

I think that they shouldn't just disappear some of the most valuable items in the game without compensation.

I think that they shouldn't just disappear some of the most valuable items in the game without compensation.

As anyone who was watching the fanfest stream knows, CCP Greyscale today announced that T2 BPOs will be going away in the future: that they've caused problems for the game for years and everyone has felt they'd be going away at some point. That point is apparently coming soon. The discussion indicated that they would not simply be deleted but that there would be a phasing out plan (presumably, the often-considered replacement with BPCs with a large number of copies).

Interestingly, CCP thought that people buying and selling T2 BPOs should have been taking this risk into account. As every bpo sells for something like 7-10 years profit at this point, players clearly did not have that sort of foresight or common sense, so we can expect the price to plummet dramatically.

What are people's thoughts on finally eradicating T2 BPOs to secure a future for invention as the only means of producing T2 bpos, and what do people think will happen in the interim between now and their eventual demise? What sorts of outrage do we expect from current T2 BPO holders who see large parts of their investment wiped out? Should they be compensated, or should we realize that buying a product that clearly was bad for the game and paying a decade's worth of profit was the sort of "sure, let me lend a million dollars to this strawberry picker for a mortgage on a mansion worth more than he'll make in his lifetime" financial decision that deserves the loss that everyone but they saw coming? When it comes to the plan to bail out T2 bpo holders with BPCs, how much is enough/too much? What sort of prices do we think we'll see people bailing out of their T2 BPO investments at, or do you think they'll hang onto them hoping that if they post loudly enough, they'll change CCP's mind?

[edit: Also. "Item being deleted by the devs" is not a risk to be taken into account when playing this game. Being nerfed, yes. Being blow up or stolen? Hells yes. But not straight up deletion from the game.

Interestingly, CCP thought that people buying and selling T2 BPOs should have been taking this risk into account. As every bpo sells for something like 7-10 years profit at this point, players clearly did not have that sort of foresight or common sense, so we can expect the price to plummet dramatically.

T2 BPO's should of been removed after "T20"

Happened before.

Collectible stuff has just been recycled.

Can they decide this about ships, for example? Suppose Jump Freighters get disappeared next week. Compensation? Skillpoints, isk, both, or nothing?

Now that would make losec way more interesting.

What I want to know is why a member of the goon economic warfare team is creating this thread at all.

What does he have to gain by it?
Trolling for tears?
Actually curious about the opinions of others after years of gloatingly stating "your opinion means nothing".

This entire post is completely out of character, and I am curious why it was created.

What I want to know is why a member of the goon economic warfare team is creating this thread at all.

What does he have to gain by it?
Trolling for tears?
Actually curious about the opinions of others after years of gloatingly stating "your opinion means nothing".

This entire post is completely out of character, and I am curious why it was created.

What I want to know is why a member of the goon economic warfare team is creating this thread at all.

What does he have to gain by it?
Trolling for tears?
Actually curious about the opinions of others after years of gloatingly stating "your opinion means nothing".

This entire post is completely out of character, and I am curious why it was created.

Happened before.

Collectible stuff has just been recycled.

Until its in the patch notes of a patch or expansion it's not real.

Not all Goons are created equal.

You know who else had an ultimate solution?

I'll be surprised if this happens any time soon. They'll get nerfed before they disappear. I have yet to hear any valid reason these are a problem (except for jealousy) since invention was introduced.

That was the Final Solution

T2 BPO gone = no more T2 stuff? Or how will it work?

T2 BPO gone = no more T2 stuff? Or how will it work?

Look up "INVENTION".

That is how it works, except for the few OLD RICH vets that were gifted BPO's by their Dev friends.

You know how we know you don't know how the BPO lottery worked.

http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_7&page=4

Yeah. and this is just what was made public. I am sure there were more hidden favoritism.

Primary method for most T2 items to enter the game is Invention, which creates T2 BPCs.

T2 BPOs were handed out in a series of lotteries years ago, and CCP later decided Invention was a better way to bring T2 items into game and said they would never release T2 BPOs again.

This has been a long time coming, but I can't blame anyone who bought a T2 BPO later for being a bit miffed. It's kind of ridiculous to have something like that just plain deleted.

Do you have any proof of such favoritism? I'm not saying it could not happen, but if you are going to make that kind of accusation without passing out tinfoil first, I'd suggest a better argument based on less unfounded jealousy and/or hysteria. That matter was addressed a long time ago.

What about the 99.99% of the rest of the players who participated and who earned their BPOs fairly by grinding research agents and were lucky enough to draw one in the lottery. I had one once, and nobody gifted it to me or did me any favors.

Touched a nerve?

CCP knows that T2 BPO's are bad for the game. The majority of the player base knows it is a broken part of the game. They need to go, and I am glad that CCP is going to do this. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

And, I don't have to have a better argument or proof. This is the EVE online forums, not a court of law.

Touched a nerve?

CCP knows that T2 BPO's are bad for the game. The majority of the player base knows it is a broken part of the game.

*raises hand*

I, for one, don't think they're broken. I don't own a T2 BPO, nor do I have enough ISK to ever afford one, but they should straight up stay in the game, especially if the invention system will allow someone to come into the T2 production system on par with a T2 BPO owner. Wasn't that the whole point of invention in the first place?

Going in and erasing the assets of someone that either earned them or paid a big chunk of ISK on them is stupid on CCP's part especially since they tout the 'sandbox' nature of EVE. Arbitrarily erasing something like that (just that alone) and not providing some form of compensation really does ruin EVE and CCP's reputation.

I guess its time for all BPO T2 owners to start copying like there is no tomorrow :P copier machine is this way >>>> GOGOGO!

http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_7&page=4

Yeah. and this is just what was made public. I am sure there were more hidden favoritism.

I have a 650mm Artillery Cannon II BPO I'm pretty sure that it wasn't favouritism because that one is shite.

Invention can never match a BPO. Production from a T2 BPO less than half as much build materials as an invention build, not even counting the cost of doing the invention itself. That sucks. But where it's completely broken is where a single T2 BPO can completely shut down all invention for a particular item, if you've got the right BPO. That's just not acceptable, no matter how much you paid for that BPO.

What I want to know is why a member of the goon economic warfare team is creating this thread at all.

What does he have to gain by it?
Trolling for tears?
Actually curious about the opinions of others after years of gloatingly stating "your opinion means nothing".

This entire post is completely out of character, and I am curious why it was created.

As anyone who was watching the fanfest stream knows, CCP Greyscale today announced that T2 BPOs will be going away in the future: that they've caused problems for the game for years and everyone has felt they'd be going away at some point. That point is apparently coming soon. The discussion indicated that they would not simply be deleted but that there would be a phasing out plan (presumably, the often-considered replacement with BPCs with a large number of copies).

Interestingly, CCP thought that people buying and selling T2 BPOs should have been taking this risk into account. As every bpo sells for something like 7-10 years profit at this point, players clearly did not have that sort of foresight or common sense, so we can expect the price to plummet dramatically.

What are people's thoughts on finally eradicating T2 BPOs to secure a future for invention as the only means of producing T2 bpos, and what do people think will happen in the interim between now and their eventual demise? What sorts of outrage do we expect from current T2 BPO holders who see large parts of their investment wiped out? Should they be compensated, or should we realize that buying a product that clearly was bad for the game and paying a decade's worth of profit was the sort of "sure, let me lend a million dollars to this strawberry picker for a mortgage on a mansion worth more than he'll make in his lifetime" financial decision that deserves the loss that everyone but they saw coming? When it comes to the plan to bail out T2 bpo holders with BPCs, how much is enough/too much? What sort of prices do we think we'll see people bailing out of their T2 BPO investments at, or do you think they'll hang onto them hoping that if they post loudly enough, they'll change CCP's mind?

Exactly how many T2 BPOs do you believe there are in game, and which ones exactly can shut down all invention?

If a single BPO can shut down all invention, what does it tell you about demand for that particular item?

Have you actually done invention? A T2 BPO owner is limited on how many items he can make in a given time period. Inventors can create virtually unlimited runs that can be built simultaneously.

If there is a lot of demand for Ishtars (for instance) an you build Ishtars is it more advantageous to be able to manufacture them using 1 manufacturing slot, or 10 at once?

"That Sucks" sounds a lot like jealousy to me.

Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.

Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.

Making copies takes longer per run than manufacturing. How does that disadvantage create an advantage?

You keep saying it's unfair, but you have not demonstrated how. See jealousy.

How do I benefit when I no longer own a T2 BPO and have not for many years?

I don't do T2 manufacturing.

I just want the mechanics of EVE to be equal for all. This is an instance where it is NOT.

Note, I said MECHANICS. Not skills, not experience... etc. So don't try to derail and turn this into "making EVE easier".

Goons want your T2 BPO'S

Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing.

Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing.

Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are.

CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon..

x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form.

I am not jealous. I don't do T2 manufacturing. You trying to derail the conversation with personal attacks is juvenile.

I just want the mechanics of EVE to be equal for all. This is an instance where it is NOT.

Note, I said MECHANICS. Not skills, not experience... etc. So don't try to derail and turn this into "making EVE easier".

I don't have one. I just have a problem with CCP vaporizing player's assets to make up for their own past mistakes.

O.K. You admittedly don't do T2 manufacturing so you have no idea what you are talking about and have never done the math because you'd know that invention is more lucrative.

Just because you *believe* something is bad due to simple ignorance or because someone else told you to believe so is not a good reason for CCP to take something away from another player because you can't have it too.

Gotcha. All is clear now. Original synopsis affirmed.

There's no need to take my word for it: anyone who watched the panel (or paid for HD and can rewatch) can confirm. I realize that denial is the first stage of grief but you're going to need to work harder on it.

Exactly how many T2 BPOs do you believe there are in game, and which ones exactly can shut down all invention?

If a single BPO can shut down all invention, what does it tell you about demand for that particular item?

Have you actually done invention? A T2 BPO owner is limited on how many items he can make in a given time period. Inventors can create virtually unlimited runs that can be built simultaneously.

If there is a lot of demand for Ishtars (for instance) an you build Ishtars is it more advantageous to be able to manufacture them using 1 manufacturing slot, or 10 at once?

"That Sucks" sounds a lot like jealousy to me.

I don't have one. I just have a problem with CCP vaporizing player's CCP's assets to make up for their own past mistakes.

No, "that sucks" goes a long way to making invention even worse. And yes, there are definitely items where invention is not a thing because of the BPOs... devs have talked about it before, most recently in some of the industry threads. If you've got the right T2 BPO it will dominate that market to the point where it is literally impossible to profit from invention. In those particular cases, the production capabilities of the BPO outpace demand, apparently by a wide enough margin that normal playerbase growth will never offset it. I believe it's some certain ships... like the HACs or something. Or at least it used to be. I honestly don't know all the economic details of which ones, I just know what's shown up in devblogs, dev posts, and to a lesser extent what some of the players have said on the forums.

O.K. You admittedly don't do T2 manufacturing so you have no idea what you are talking about and have never done the math because you'd know that invention is more lucrative.

Just because you *believe* something is bad due to simple ignorance or because someone else told you to believe so is not a good reason for CCP to take something away from another player because you can't have it too.

Gotcha. All is clear now. Original synopsis affirmed.

stop sounding like a stupid scrub, T2 BPOs outside the scope of invention should and WILL be eradicated.

/thread

Pilgrims are about to be buffed?

How are they broken? Just sounds like a bunch if Indy people mad that they don't have one. Exactly how are they broken?

Yep, Fozzie and Rise announced that Recons are getting reworked next in the ship balancing discussion at Fanfest. The Pilgrim in particular was described as being one of the ones most in need of buffing.

How are they broken? Just sounds like a bunch if Indy people mad that they don't have one. Exactly how are they broken?

Goons want your T2 BPO'S

Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing.

Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing.

Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are.

CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon..

x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form.

...snip...

*citation needed*

The solution to T2 BPOs was invention, and it's done its job. You just need to see the price reduction of Cap Recharger IIs pre and post invention to see this.

This whole topic and been trashed out over the years in many threads and I'm yet to read a cohesive argument why any further action should be taken. T2 BPOs have lost their power, there are only a few markets left where they still dominate, and this is due to low demand. If anything the action CCP should take is to buff these items to increase demand and encourage invention participation.

T2 BPOs are something for industrialist to aspire to, just as PvP alliances aspire to own a titan. However they are not the be all and end all of the game.

What a dull game it would be without something to aspire to. Yes even industrialists need something to aspire to. This is not hello kitty island adventure, or some other game where everyone is treated equally. This is Eve Online. The world is cruel, and you don't get what you want, but you have the opportunity to. If anyone wants to remove T2 BPOs from the game, buy them out and trash them, or infiltrate corporations who own them and steal them.

So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away".

No, actually just the opposite.

T2 BPO's are decent but can easily be surpassed by a well thought out Invention chain in terms of income.

While I wouldn't be pleased if they were removed, I'd be fine... they are far from my most lucrative income stream. Plus I fully realize that I literally own nothing in EVE. They, and everything else in the game, ultimately belongs to CCP.

I will, however, point it out when people spout myth as fact, as well as when people are shooting themselves in the foot.

Goons want your T2 BPO'S

Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing.

Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing.

Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are.

CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon..

x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form.

So what I'm reading is "T2 BPOs suck but I'd still be really upset if they took mine away".

Goons own many T2 BPOs (gotta spend that tech money somehow).

But fighting the nerf would be a very ungoony thing to do.

So goons support and publicize the nerf and rely on you to prevent it.

That's pretty much what it boils down to. Some people (usually BPO owners) seem to disagree that it's a bad thing that a single person can fulfill 100% of all demand for half a million players. Those people who promote that agenda are wrong.

Please provide at least 2 specific examples where this is happening right now.

I don't have the in depth data to know. I just read dev quotes. And have been reading every dev quote and dev blog for the past 6 years. Grayscale said just last week that T2 BPOs fall into two categories. Either they either completely dominate the production, or they represent a minor percentage of production. It was part of the feedback on the industry dev blogs. Keep up. A couple years ago, if I recall the dev posts correctly, I think the biggest examples were HACs and HICs, though I could be misremembering that.

Has anyone a link to the a record of the stream where that T2 bpo issue is discussed? thank you

I don't care who loses what. As long as I keep everything...

I find it funny that Goon starts the thread of T2 BPO sky falling thus crashing the price of those BPOs and then other Goons buy now cheaper T2 BPOs which are strategical item for their 0.0 alliance.

Good job! Nice timing considering that in summer expansion T2 BPOs are getting boosted!


Based on facts in dev blogs:
- T2 BPO will get faster copy time so no need to risk it in 0.0 you can just bring copies to 0.0 and keep it in highsec
- Invented BPOs with ME -1, -2, -3, ... are getting worse regarding materials because of new base material level for multiplying with ME will be 1.1111x higher
- new cost structure (teams, tax, installation cost) will raise the cost of invention making T2 BPO more profitable.
- T2 BPO which mostly have ME and PE higher then 10 will now be perfect in new system thus having material cost reduced even more.

You guys are the kings of manipulation! o7

Fanfest Industry Panel

Go to 3:40:40

o7m8n9 fellow capsuleer!

If you seriously believe that we produce a meaningful percentage of the ships and modules we lose every day ourselves, I have cheap beachfront property in San Francisco to sell to you!

Depends on the item, some items like command ships or recons are dominated by BPO and those you produce all/most from BPOs, modules you produce with invention. I agree with you that in most cases BPOs are not influencing the invention because of well known psc/day limitation which most of whiners on forums blatantly ignore.
http://k162space.com/2012/07/17/percentage-of-items-from-invention-vs-tech-2-bpo/

IMHO owning as much BPOs as you (Goons) can reduces your risk of not having enough invented BPCs, reduces the load on "limited" amounts of T2 materials and allows you to have more ships from faster manufacturing. If with couple of "OMG THEY ARE NERFING T2 BPOs" posts that Goons write, you manage to crash prices by 50% then you quite easily save a pile of ISKies and your trillions will buy twice as much T2 BPOs at the end of the day making you stronger as alliance.

You guys are awesome! Respect.

T2BPO's will be reimbursed for the research points they were traded for. If players traded them for ISK then that is their problem they were worth a limited amount of research points and that is what you are getting when they are removed. Any value prescribed over the research points was player speculation and anyone bitter about failed speculations should HTFU!

Collectible stuff. Not an actual asset.