We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation. This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill. During the patch downtime, existing players with the Combat Drone Operation skill trained will receive both new skills trained to the same level that their Combat Drone Operation skill was trained to.

This change makes light and medium drones consistent with heavy and sentry drones in their skill paths. It also allows us to create new ships and modules with bonuses that only affect light or medium drones separately, such as the newly rebalanced Guristas Worm faction frigate.

Finally, we are renaming two drone skills to clarify their roles. The Scout Drone Operation skill is being renamed GÇ£Drone AvionicsGÇ¥; the Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing skill is being renamed GÇ£Advanced Drone AvionicsGÇ¥ to better represent their roles. The effects, prerequisites and unlocks provided by these skills will not be changing.

Your alt will receive the Drone Avionics skill with the same number of skill points that Scout Drone Operation has when Kronos lands. Effectively, we're just renaming Scout Drone Operation to Drone Avionics, so you can safely keep that skill in training without losing any progress

so when the light drone/medium drone skills are made from the combat drone operation skill will they both still be a 2x skill?
or what would make more sense would be if the light drone skill was 1x...

Your alt will receive the Drone Avionics skill with the same number of skill points that Scout Drone Operation has when Kronos lands. Effectively, we're just renaming Scout Drone Operation to Drone Avionics, so you can safely keep that skill in training without losing any progress

As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime.

That would mean that the OP should get Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation to partway through level V as well...

Just for clarification, Scout Drones isn't being split, right? Based on the devblog, it's being renamed, and Combat Drone Operation is the one being split.

That's right, assuming of course he doesn't have Combat Drone Operation trained to V.

When we determine which of the two skills (Scout and Combat Drone Operation) is higher we take into account any partial training and apply it to the new skills as well.

So after trying to catch up and skimming the 50 page original thread, what I'm getting is that if we spent an extra week training both skills to V because the dev blog said we should, we're just out of luck and wasted a week of training? Is that correct?

So after trying to catch up and skimming the 50 page original thread, what I'm getting is that if we spent an extra week training both skills to V because the dev blog said we should, we're just out of luck and wasted a week of training? Is that correct?

yes, and no word on SP reimbursement.

So after trying to catch up and skimming the 50 page original thread, what I'm getting is that if we spent an extra week training both skills to V because the dev blog said we should, we're just out of luck and wasted a week of training? Is that correct?

That's right, assuming of course he doesn't have Combat Drone Operation trained to V.

When we determine which of the two skills (Scout and Combat Drone Operation) is higher we take into account any partial training and apply it to the new skills as well.

no, because you're getting the extra 5% damage to your drones.

That would mean that the Combat Drones skill remains and still contains Drone Link Augmentor II? But if that is the case is it affecting either light and medium drones with 5% damage?

So far there is some confusing dev-blog that still says Combat Drones would split up (which seems to be fully wrong). Now it's told here that Scout drones is going to be renamed to Drone Avionics ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4648326#post4648326 ) and regarding Light and Medium drones it was mentioned earlier that it does not make a difference if you skill Scout or Combat Drones to V (as written here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4431589#post4431589).

If Combat Drones remain it sounds good to me and there is no waste of time to skill it if you already have Scout Drones to V. If not it seems still a waste of skill time and the dev-blog is still misleading.

You are not losing anything.

What, exactly, is the problem?

The problem is that some people trained 768k sp so as to be prepared for this change and as far as anyone has said we're being granted new skills exactly the same as people who trained only 256k sp. So we've now wasted an additional week+ of training time to prepare for an announced change that was then modified 30 some pages deep in a discussion thread. It's frustrating having wasted that training time when it could have been better spent.

Shall we reimburse them as well?

I'm sure everyone who lost billions speculating on the capital rig market for the freighter changes could have found better way for that pile of ISK. Shall we reimburse them as well?

You're not getting a refund. Just drop it.

Who is we? Are you talking for CCP? If you read the previous post of Hyuni you might see that there are still people affected by that issue right now.

Apples and Oranges.

Really would love to actually hear some kind of official response.

They have made an official response. You're not getting free SP.

Also, why did you think you would need this? CCP's policy has been "if you can fly now you can fly it after. So, why did you train the skill? Did you think CCP was gonna take away your ability to use drones? They never have and never will.

They have made an official response. You're not getting free SP.

Also, why did you think you would need this? CCP's policy has been "if you can fly now you can fly it after. So, why did you train the skill? Did you think CCP was gonna take away your ability to use drones? They never have and never will.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4592269#post4594548

Post #8

I think there's more but I'm on a mobile atm and searching is a *****

Obviously this has been argued over more then enough so I'm not going to waste my time. Just want to say I'm disappointed in CCP over the decision to remove training from characters but they're gonna do whatever they are I guess.

No training is being removed.

# of sp doesn't equal training.

GǪand no matter what, training isn't removed. If you had some trained-for bonus before, you will have it afterwards.

Granting equal skills to people with differing levels of skill investment is a removal of training.

Please don't reproduce.

Ugh this is why I said I was done with this discussion. Let me see if I can simply it further. From here on out all Eve characters who have trained Drones V shall now have all drone skills at V. No training was removed. Granting equal skills to people with differing levels of skill investment is a removal of training.

I wasn't crying before, I was attempting to have a discussion but after reading responses from you and several others in this thread and another I just noticed, I'm starting to cry for the human race. Please don't reproduce.

No, it is not.
Removing the abilities you've trained for is a removal of training. Others getting the same abilities you've trained for is them receiving training. This is not a zero-sum game GÇö their gain is not your loss. Learn the difference.

Sod off you whingy entitled brat.

In a game in which I'm trying to kill or avoid being killed by them

i'm unsure what my lawn has to do with this and I'd personally disagree as to my whingyness (sp?)

In a game in which I'm trying to kill or avoid being killed by them, then yes their gain is my loss. This is not a single player game. Learn the difference.

i'm unsure what my lawn has to do with this and I'd personally disagree as to my whingyness (sp?), I stand by my statement regarding the benefit of your genes continuing within the human race.

In a game in which I'm trying to kill or avoid being killed by them, then yes their gain is my loss. This is not a single player game. Learn the difference.

i'm unsure what my lawn has to do with this and I'd personally disagree as to my whingyness (sp?), I stand by my statement regarding the benefit of your genes continuing within the human race.

So according to you giving a person something is taking something away from another person. When did EVE become a closed system?

A has 10 oranges,

B has 8 oranges,

I give 2 oranges to B,

B now has 10 oranges.

According to your logic A had 2 oranges removed from it which is clearly not the case. Try again?

GǪtheir gain is still not your loss. You are not interconnected. It is not a zero-sum game. In fact, their skill gains will happen in an utterly disconnected manner to what you do. If you think they are, you have fundamentally misunderstood how skills in EVE work and are thus pretty much disqualified from commenting on the system.

So your problem with the concepts of GÇ£gainGÇ¥ and GÇ£lossGÇ¥ is that you're not all that familiar with these things called GÇ£wordsGÇ¥ and their meaning, then. That clear that problem up, I suppose. By keeping the abilities you trained for, you lose nothing. That's kind of what GÇ£keeping the abilities you trained forGÇ¥ means, you know, just for future reference.

The fact remains: you lose nothing. The fact that you immediately had to jump on an ad hominem because of your monumental inability to respond in an actually coherent and reasoned way proves that your argument is just a matter of idiotic entitlement, so that's another thing cleared up.

My opinion of you has nothing to with the side of the argument you are on. Let's just end this now so you don't waste any more of those limited brain cells googling big words.

o7 m8888888888888888 or whatever you pubbies do these days

See now you're talking about causality, which is a problem because it's unaccountable and...well you're just trying to save face heh. Also, Sod off means f*ck off in the Queen's English, and whinge is actually the proper (even in American English) word for someone who complains, as opposed to whine, which is mostly colloquially associated with whinge in the U.S.

My opinion of you has nothing to with the side of the argument you are on.

Let's just end this now so you don't waste any more of those limited brain cells googling big words.

Just for future reference, whinge is not a proper word in American English.

One can work 2 hours for 5 oranges, 4 hours for 5 oranges, or 6 hours for 10 oranges.

A works 2 hours for 5 oranges, and B works 6 hours for 10 oranges.
A is suddenly given 5 more oranges for no reason other than already having 5 oranges.
B feels cheated having had to work the extra 4 hours for the full 10 oranges when A got them without those 4 hours.

Make up your mind.

So you agree, then, seeing as how you have nothing to offer but fallacies. Got it.

That must be an awful special filter you have on your screen to make words say what you want them to.

As for the abortion, I was just trying to speak your language.

No. It's just plain old deduction: you immediately had to resort to fallacies. This happens when you have no proper argument. If you have no proper argument, it's because you know I'm right and you're just lashing out because you are desperate not to show it.

You should have tried actual logic instead, since that's what I listen to. But since you had to resort to a lack of it, I thank you for your support.

It's clearly a special special world you live in.

Why is it always Tippia at the end of every thread arguing with everyone and saying black is white?

It's because they're in many ways each others' opposites and yet people want to equate them using all kinds of pretzel logic or fancy redefinitions of their meanings. I mainly just get annoyed with their nonsensical argumentation.

Its funny becaus pretezel logic and personal definitions seem to be your specialty

I remember earlier you were trying to say that EVE doesn't condone scamming.

Tippia, you live on these forums and throw your worthless 2 cent into every thread. A logical conclusion is that

Tippia, you live on these forums and throw your worthless 2 cent into every thread. A logical conclusion is that you are just some stupid and pathetic person who can't have proper social life and can't admit when they are wrong or concede a point.

...and no word on Drone Link Augmentor II as well. Maybe there is a new skill that is required for that and gain some benefit from that. But without any official answer it's some kind of guesswork either to stop the skilling if you have one of the 2 skills already at V in hope to don't waste skill-time or not because Drone Link Augmentor II is still not mentioned.

DLA II requires Drone Avionics V.

It's pretty amazing to me how many people completely misunderstood (and continue to misunderstand) the process of splitting the drone skills.

Incorrect.

Sod off you whingy entitled brat.

I guarantee you it won't.

That is funny because pretezel logic and personal definitions seem to be your specialty

I remember earlier you were trying to say that EVE doesn't condone scamming.

'We' as in the collective EVE community, including the devs. Used it as a general term more than anything else. Don't read so much into it.

I guarantee you it does. Right now.

It's clearly a special special world you live in.

...based on what?

Based on the current Kronos build.

Could make sense. Do you know if that Drone Avionics V is required to use Tech II drones on the current Kronos build as well?

Because if I get that skill to V via my Scout Drones skill I could save some days of training right now and stop trainig Combat Drones to V as well.

Based on the current Kronos build.
Also, based on how it's the only requirement that makes any sense with this change.

It doesn't make any sense because that would violate their dictum of "if you can use it now, you can use it after".

It makes sense because Drone Avionics is the skill that control drone control range. It therefore also unlocks modules that control drone control range. Compare Drone Navigation GåÆ DNC and Drone Sharpshooting GåÆ Omnilink.

Drone Avionics controls bonuses and modules that have to do with drone control range.

You're still ignoring the larger point.

If someone doesn't have Scout Drone Operation 5 but they do have Combat Drone Operation 5, come June 3rd they'll discover they won't be able to use T2 DLAs anymore.

If I don't need that skill for Tech II light and medium drones at V I don't understand why somebody should get it automatically at V via the update from the Scout Drone skill?

Because it's the skill you've trained to V.

If you have trained SDO V, you have unlocked:
GÇó T2 light drones.
GÇó T2 medium drones.
GÇó A 25km drone control range.

They don't want you to lose any of those, so you're being given:
GÇó The ability to use T2 light drones (LDO V).
GÇó The ability to use T2 medium drones (MDO V).
GÇó A 25km drone control range (DAv V).

If you have trained CDO V, you have unlocked:
GÇó +25% damage to light drones.
GÇó +25% damage to medium drones.

They don't want you to lose those bonuses either, so you're being given:
GÇó +25% damage to light drones (LDO V).
GÇó +25% damage to medium drones (MDO V).


Basically, the entire change is to fix the entirely illogical cross-skill bonusing and unlocking that the current drone skills offer. Right now, the drone skills are such that, if the turret skills worked the same, you would have to train Long-range Targeting V in order to use T2 light blaster GÇö the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. All of that silliness is being removed: bonusing skills and unlocking skills become one and the same.

That's ok. They'll get fast-tracked to T2 drones instead, which is far more valuable.

No. I simply consider it utterly minute.

That's ok. They'll get fast-tracked to T2 drones instead, which is far more valuable.

oh look. another one of these threads.

i'm just going to laugh at all the people who trained CDO V, it's more productive than talking to them at this point.

Of course, anyone with any sense will be maxing SDO on every character to maximise the benefits anyway, but it does leave a crack in the system that someone is bound to fall through.

I trained it

The people complaining about it are contemptibly petty to an unbelievable level.

Save that for things that are actually contemptibly petty.

I'm guessing that anyone who wants maximum range will have gone for the (far cheaper and universally more useful) SDO V than the single-purpose and limited-use DLA II, so the amount of people falling through that crack should be vanishingly small.

There is actually another crack as well: people will lose their sentries unless they have drone specs trained GÇö there are a few special-purpose AFK alts that will fall into that one. But again, it's such a minute case that it's not worth bothering with.

yes, and no word on SP reimbursement.

why would CCP reimburse SP if you didn't lose any and infact gain more?

why would CCP reimburse SP if you didn't lose any and infact gain more?

It feels a bit nasty because the dev-blog mislead you to do something dumb. If you had (the pretty easy skilled) Scout Drones already at V it seems you get a gift if you don't skill Combat Drones any further. If you read the dev-blog and skilled Combat Drones to avoid some huge skilltime multiplikation (like in the past with Destroyer or Battle-Cruiser) you did not save but wasted skilltime because the gift after the update is doing the same for you (so you might feel bad now). Anyway I think it's ok without refund and if you have some fresh toon (like me) you could still take advantage from the update.

So those who play the system lose out and those of us who either have the skills we need or are still skilling dont?

If you are still skilling Combat Drones you "loose" because you could get it for free after the update (means you are wasting your time via doing something twice). But since it's more like a gift for those who don't skill than a real loose (for those who get it the hard way) nobody steal something from you. That's the reason why I think it's not smart but ok. The only remaining problem I see is the dev-blog that caused that issue (and for sure caused lot of corp-mails that gave some wrong hints).

I trained it

The people complaining about it are contemptibly petty to an unbelievable level.

o7 m8888888888888888 or whatever you pubbies do these days

It feels a bit nasty because the dev-blog mislead you to do something dumb. If you had (the pretty easy skilled) Scout Drones already at V it seems you get a gift if you don't skill Combat Drones any further. If you read the dev-blog and skilled Combat Drones to avoid some huge skilltime multiplikation (like in the past with Destroyer or Battle-Cruiser) you did not save but wasted skilltime because the gift after the update is doing the same for you (so you might feel bad now). Anyway I think it's ok without refund and if you have some fresh toon (like me) you could still take advantage from the update.

They have made an official response. You're not getting free SP.

Also, why did you think you would need this? CCP's policy has been "if you can fly now you can fly it after. So, why did you train the skill? Did you think CCP was gonna take away your ability to use drones? They never have and never will.

Ah, no.
That is a lie.

I will need Amarr Drone spec to use Curators, and I don't now.

So you either have ether badly misread what the devs said, or you are propagating the lies CCP has stated.

nobody mislead you in doing something dumb.

it's a Dev. Blog,

well buddy, you lost, they changed it and there's nothing you can do about it, sorry.

Its not even a thing yet and you already are in with "the lies CCP has stated"

Thats poor, even for you.

Well... thx for clearing that up. Why didn't you tell us this before. Oh wait you did?




There is a Dev-Blog? Really?




No need to apologize. I did not loose SP and could still take advantage from it. Others might still trust the Dev-blog and don't loose something either but waste some time. Since you don't have some serious new content in a thread that looks pretty finished, well... it seems many that write here does not have that much to tell but search for some tears. As I wrote already I think it's not smart but ok and you could still take advantage from it right now. But if it helps you to sleep better: :*(

Your alt will receive the Drone Avionics skill with the same number of skill points that Scout Drone Operation has when Kronos lands. Effectively, we're just renaming Scout Drone Operation to Drone Avionics, so you can safely keep that skill in training without losing any progress

My question is: What's up with those of us who have long had Both skills? Because it seems like people are getting free SP who only had the one skill trained, but those of us who had both are getting left out in the cold.

if you know how to compute then you'll find out that even if you have both CDO and SDO skills trained to V you'll still get FREE SP come Kronos, well, not as much as those who only have either CDO V or SDO V but you'll still get free SP nonetheless.

No, I understand that, but it seems odd to me that they'd give some people more free SP than others. The fair way to do it would be to give people their new skills, and then reimburse the skill being removed, since those that had it trained took the time from training something else to train that.

No, I understand that, but it seems odd to me that they'd give some people more free SP than others. The fair way to do it would be to give people their new skills, and then reimburse the skill being removed, since those that had it trained took the time from training something else to train that.

if you know how to compute then you'll find out that even if you have both CDO and SDO skills trained to V you'll still get FREE SP come Kronos, well, not as much as those who only have either CDO V or SDO V but you'll still get free SP nonetheless.

if you know how to compute then you'll find out that even if you have both CDO and SDO skills trained to V you'll still get FREE SP come Kronos, well, not as much as those who only have either CDO V or SDO V but you'll still get free SP nonetheless.

The fair way to do it would be to give people their new skills, and then reimburse the skill being removed, since those that had it trained took the time from training something else to train that.

No, the fair way of doing it would be to remove all the skills involved and only give you the SP back so that you gain nothing. This would obviously mean that pretty much everyone loses since they can't gain back the abilities they had with the SP they're reimbursed, but that's besides the point GÇö it's the most fair solution.

GǪbut of course, fairness isn't the actual goal here. GǣI want free stuffGǥ is the motive behind the nonsensical reimbursement claim (it's nonsensical since GǣreimbursementGǥ implies loss, and nothing is lost, only gained).

You're absolutely right, except that it's not the most fair solution nor the best way to do it.

This is wrong. You want to believe it's about people saying "I want free stuff" because it makes you feel good to tell those people off.

I think it sets a bad precedent to allow this to happen with skills, and I don't see how it does anything but create a feeling of resentment among the player base.

If they actually cared about fairness, they wouldn't try to get even more out of a situation they're already gaining from.

It's not a bad precedent though. Everyone gains from it except the ones who have no stake in the game. It hits people who were speculating on the change without reading up on the details, but hey, that's just how speculation turns out sometimes GÇö teaching people what happens when you do that is hardly a bad precedent.

People don't behave like this. If someone gets more than you, it doesn't matter that you're both "getting something" if you get short-changed. You'll generally feel it's unfair unless the difference is small in comparison. There is a good reason for that, too.

Well, I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether or not skill training should be similar to market speculation and whether or not this is a good thing for the game.

If you have CDO and SDO to V, you get no "free" SP. You retain exactly the same abilities you had before, only now you have an extra 256,000 extra SP to pay for when you get podded.

Really, extra SP that neither improves existing abilities or gives no more flexibility is an added tax, as the only thing raw SP is good for is meeting some corporation's arbitrary entry requirements.

Note: I am not actually complaining about the changes, just pointing out this particuar change isn't CCP giving drone-focused characters free stuff.

And this is somehow good?

Borrowing from James' earlier example:
A works 4 hours and is paid 5 oranges.
B works (same job) for 2 hours but is also paid 5 oranges.
Employer decides that from now on, any new people will need to work 5 hours for 5 oranges.

To A: "You still got FREE oranges, well, not as much as B but you still got free oranges nonetheless".

then don't accept the job? the employer has the very right what he can offer to you as salary as long as you accept it.
do you honestly believe that in your office/work that all of the people working on the same level are receiving the same salary, benefits and perks? the top boss' sexytary is receiving waaaaay more than a project manager, i garen-tee you.

and your point is? as you admitted you still get free oranges, why are you asking for more when you only get it for free? this is just being greedy man.

That's so vastly removed from anything GÇ£fairGÇ¥ that it's just laughable. What you're suggesting is giving people who already have more even more. You want to be given 1M free SP for no good reason whatsoever, and screw anyone who hasn't done the same.

No, the fair way of doing it would be to remove all the skills involved and only give you the SP back so that you gain nothing. This would obviously mean that pretty much everyone loses since they can't gain back the abilities they had with the SP they're reimbursed, but that's besides the point GÇö it's the most fair solution.

GǪbut of course, fairness isn't the actual goal here. GǣI want free stuffGǥ is the motive behind the nonsensical reimbursement claim (it's nonsensical since GǣreimbursementGǥ implies loss, and nothing is lost, only gained).

[quote=Komi Toran]but the point still stands that nothing was taken away from you...

yes, and no word on SP reimbursement.

OH MY GOD a WHOLE week of training wasted ..... the horrors CCP plays on us .Wish you guys had played SWG years back , you had 2 weeks rollback meaning you had litteraly lost everything you did in those 2 weeks.

My guess is since a lot of people complained about ''omg i trained X drone to V and not Y drone to V because of thread X i now don't have the max skill needed for the change.So they changed it so wichever of both you have to V works fine BUT this being a game of EVE players offcourse that won't do because now you'll get the ''OMG because of thread X or Y i specifically trained droneskill Z and droneskills X to max level and as such wasted a week of skilltraining''.

I think we can say with a fair certainty that the eve playerbase is one of the hardest to please . Hell , sometimes i even get the feeling my wife is easier to please and trust me that says a LOT about us as a playerbase , and yes i specifically say US because i'm just a whiny little bastard like most of you at times ...

Why should people just 'accept' a week of opportunity cost training wasted. Server Rollbacks were a problem and I'm sure SOE would have liked to avoid those as much as possible. Unlike that time, This matter is entirely in CCPs hands.

CCP have always reimbursed skill training from skill changes to the highest possible amount, See: Battlecruiser/Destroyer changes, learning skill changes, social skill changes etc. They are now somewhat departing from that. It's pretty clear that a decent amount of players have lost out on a weeks training time because of this somewhat unclear change, until the devblog was edited, this was in page 20 of a feedback thread without the OP being updated.

Please code drones to AWOX anyone with a different or opposing point of view to me. And anyone trying to actually 'discuss' something in 'general discussion'

It's 512,000 SP (Not 1mil SP) If you have CDO and SCO to 5.

In the past CCP have always reimbursed skill training to the highest amount possible (BC + Destroyer split, learning skill removal, Social Skill changes etc.)

A lot of people decided to train CDO before the patch (And as posted in CCP's original dev blog and forum thread, and it wasn't updated, only mentioned in a dev post 20 pages into a thread). And unfortunately, all of those pilots have now completely lost out, to say, if they trained something else. Claiming that they are still 'not losing anything' is akin to saying

Why should people just 'accept' a week of opportunity cost training wasted

512,000 SP is the time investment that you lost.

Just because you 'gained less' it's still an opportunity cost.

2) Tippia can try and paint it that everyone wants something 'free' but frankly, they're passing out free SP to everyone, but some are getting more than others. Which is, bluntly, unfair.

If you had a brain, or any degree of awesomeness, the SP allocated would be irrelevant. Continue flapping.

Let me try it a way that I think you'll understand: If we both camp two gates in the same system with the same fit, and CCP forcibly drives six people out of highsec in pods for me to afk gank with sentry drones, and they only give you three, and you have to work for it, would you not feel resentful that they were clearly favoring one of us, instead of force feeding us high sec carebear pods equally?

No, the unfair bit is that they are not passing out free SP to everyone. That's why the whole fairness argument is bunk GÇö it blithely ignores everyone and anyone who gets nothing. Had people tried to make the argument that more people should be given SP, then they might have had a point, but instead, it's just pure egotism. GÇ£I should get more, screw those other guys because they're not me, so I'll ignore that they even exist.GÇ¥

And I paint it as people wanting something GÇ£freeGÇ¥ because that's what they're asking for: free SP GÇö not tied to anything GÇö as GÇ£reimbursementGÇ¥ for something they did not lose because they still have it, i.e. for nothing. For free.

Thanks for the condescending explanation. Luckily I can bypass your rhetoric in several, really obvious ways
1) don't have a ****, but if i did, it'd be awesome
2) don't feel resentment over ingame crap, those obstacles are part of the challenge, unless you're a crier obv
3) something about unfairness
<--- this is my sympathetic face

Anything else?

Some people are getting more than others. Is this fair?

Let me try it a way that I think you'll understand: If we both camp two gates in the same system with the same fit, and CCP forcibly drives six people out of highsec in pods for me to afk gank with sentry drones, and they only give you three, and you have to work for it, would you not feel resentful that they were clearly favoring one of us, instead of force feeding us high sec carebear pods equally?

However, they're giving the same SP for those who trained two skills as they are to those who trained one.

Some people are getting more, some people getting less, and that's what makes it unfair

Point, they're passing it out to everyone who has at least one of those skills, as opposed to everyone in the game. True.

However, they're giving the same SP for those who trained two skills as they are to those who trained one. This is an advantage to those who only trained the one skill. It effectively gives them an extra week of training. Which is not being reimbursed. Now, if they were giving out One for one skill and one for the other, OK, that would be fair. If they gave out the weeks sp to make up the difference, that would be fair. But they're not doing either one of those things.

So, yes, they are giving out free Sp. Some people are getting more, some people getting less, and that's what makes it unfair, particularly since those who put more time into it are getting less out of it.





So, in other words, your 'bypass' to my rhetoric is to basically try (and I emphasize 'try' because that really was pathetic) to troll harder? Please.

Either disprove what I am saying, come up with an at least decent troll, or stfu.

No, what would makes it unfair is that people get more SP at all. What makes it fair is that they're trying to keep everyone where they were, ability-wise, relative to each other. This fairness matters a whole lot more than some pernickety SP-counting.

Your SP will be at the same level as the someone with identical abilities to you who trained another skill. It's not "Free" SP, it's the exact same SP as you would have been able to get if you trained any other skill aside from CDO V. If you are reimbursed the 512,000 SP for Combat Drone Operation V (Assuming worst case scenario of SDO V + CDO V)

This is not about getting "more SP" It's about getting the "same SP"

Guess what? You're getting the same SP. This is more SP than you had before and more SP than you trained for. The instant you talk about wanting reimbursement on this SP gain, you are straight into GÇ¥getting more SPGÇ¥ territory. Just because someone else got more free SP than you did does not mean that you are entitled to more free SP. At most, it means your speculation got a lower pay-out than you had hoped for. Sorry, welcome to speculation. Don't do it again if it upsets you that much.

You have the SP you trained for. You have an additional 256k SP you didn't train for. And on top of that you want even more SP GÇö 512k of them GÇö that you not only didn't train for but that isn't even tied to any kind of skill. It's free in every sense, and claiming that it is not about GÇ¥more (free) SP (for free)GÇ¥ is either thoroughly disingenuous or an utter failure of mathematical thinking.

Oh, and if it's about getting the GÇ£same SPGÇ¥, tell me how much Johnny C should get, who didn't train any drone skills at all.

It's free SP in two senses: in the first case, it's free because you're getting skills you didn't train for, and in the second, it's free because it's not tied to any skills.

Guess what? You're getting the same SP. This is more SP than you had before and more SP than you trained for. The instant you talk about wanting reimbursement on this SP gain, you are straight into GÇ¥getting more SPGÇ¥ territory. Just because someone else got more free SP than you did does not mean that you are entitled to more free SP. At most, it means your speculation got a lower pay-out than you had hoped for. Sorry, welcome to speculation. Don't do it again if it upsets you that much.

You have the SP you trained for. You have an additional 256k SP you didn't train for. And on top of that you want even more SP GÇö 512k of them GÇö that you not only didn't train for but that isn't even tied to any kind of skill. It's free in every sense, and claiming that it is not about GÇ¥more (free) SP (for free)GÇ¥ is either thoroughly disingenuous or an utter failure of mathematical thinking.

Oh, and if it's about getting the GÇ£same SPGÇ¥, tell me how much Johnny C should get, who didn't train any drone skills at all (because that is the worst-case scenario, not the SDO V + CDO V one where you get a crapton of SP).

Here, since you like being obtuse.
Person 1 has 2 dollars.
Person 2 has 5 dollars.
I give both enough to equal 10 dollars.
Did they receive the same amount of money?

Person 2 just shouldn't complain. He/she should just be happy because they got a gift. Complaining is ungrateful.

Clearly this is better than giving both people the same amount of money. In fact, giving them both the same amount of money is so bad that I'm going to continuously post and argue against it in this thread. Why is it so bad you ask? I'm not going to include that in my 1000 posts.

This is yet another straw-man argument.

I think that everyone getting the exact same reimbursement is the fairest method possible.

How much more SP would Johnny C have gotten if he didn't train Battlecruiser or Destroyers before the previous split? Nothing. Where is the problem in this?

Here, since you like being obtuse.
Person 1 has 2 dollars.
Person 2 has 5 dollars.
I give both enough to equal 10 dollars.
Did they receive the same amount of money?

No, it just means that you are not even in the GÇ£at mostGÇ¥ category of the GÇ£it's not really sad for youGÇ¥ spectrum on this issue.

If you didn't train CDO V for this patch, you have even less reason than failed speculation to complain: you got exactly what you trained for, you've benefitted from it ever since, and absolutely nothing was lost.

Then it's not really a reimbursement, now is it? It's just a universal hand-out that happens irrespective of you trained skills.

The problem is that people are trying to say that it's unfair that they earned less than others. They completely ignore the fact that they earn far more than any others, and that they are therefore unfairly profiting from the deal too. In other words, they are not actually talking about getting GÇ£the same SPGÇ¥ GÇö they're talking about getting more. The problem is that they are being hypocritical and dishonest.

But sure, if you want to treat it like the BC/Destroyer split, let's do that: no reimbursement to anyone, just varying numbers of more skills and more SP since no-one lost anything in the process. The BC/Destroyer split followed the exact same principles as this one does.

Doesn't particularly matter. The point is that they got a fair distribution; that they most certainly didn't lose anything; and they got a lot for free.

you got exactly what you trained for, you've benefitted from it ever since, and absolutely nothing was lost.

Tippia you keep saying no one loses anything if they have trained both CDO and SDO V. This is just wrong.

Knowing what you now know, would you train the skill a month ago? 2 months ago? 3 months ago? How far back do you have to go before you "don't lose anything"?

Tippia thinks there's nothing wrong with paying one person $5 and another person $7 for the same thing, because both people get something, and you used the same rule to pay them. It doesn't matter whether or not the rule is fair, what matters is that the same rule is used for both...

They lost the difference

What did they lose? What can't they do after that they couldn't do before? What does their char sheet look like after compared to before?

Depends on how much you use your drones.

The point is that it's hardly an unfair rule if they end up with an equal amount, now is it? They have hardly lost anything when they have more than they had before, have they? They both got a lot for free, didn't they?

Again, the fairness isn't in how much they get but in how they end up, and if you truly want it to be fair, you have to stop ignoring the third party in the equation. Until you do, any mention of GÇ£fairGÇ¥ is just code for GÇ£hypocritical egotismGÇ¥.

They lost the difference if they were speculating. That's the risk inherent in speculation. If not, they gained an advantage that hey have kept for a very long time and if they have failed to capitalise on it in the mean-time, then that's their problem.

Person 2 didn't get $3 to spend, by the way. Neither of them got any money to spend. They both got money to buy the exact same thing. And the $3 that person 2 didn't have meant that he couldn't invest in Activity 3, unlike Person 1 who has since made $80 on that investmentGǪ see how that works?

The point is that it's hardly an unfair rule if they end up with an equal amount, now is it? They have hardly lost anything when they have more than they had before, have they? They both got a lot for free, didn't they?

The point is that it's hardly an unfair rule if they end up with an equal amount, now is it?

They have hardly lost anything when they have more than they had before, have they? They both got a lot for free, didn't they?

People with SDO V and CDO V gain nothing because SPs themselves are meaningless. (And no Tippia, it's not just you, the people you're arguing with also seem to think that just having a bigger SP total is somehow a benefit, else they wouldn't be using their $3 example)

Now sure, if these were indy skills, and CCP suddenly decided to make Material Efficiency a rank 10 skill, there would be a lot of existing industrialists who would gain by the increased entry barrier to the profession. But, combat drones don't represent a profession-what combat drones do can be done by guns or missiles-so the entry barrier is irrelevant to those who already possess the skills.

The only people who gain from this change are those who do not have SDO V and CDO V. People with only SDO V gain all the benefits of CDO V. Those who have just trained basic drone skills to use light and medium drones gain up to a 50% bonus (I think? Just going off of memory and don't care to check because it doesn't actually affect me) on their damage due to drone and skill rebalancing to close the gap between T1 and T2. All that people with SDO V and CDO V get is maybe an increased bill for their clone due to SP inflation.

People with SDO V and CDO V gain nothing because SPs themselves are meaningless.

Now sure, if these were indy skills, and CCP suddenly decided to make Material Efficiency a rank 10 skill, there would be a lot of existing industrialists who would gain by the increased entry barrier to the profession. But, combat drones don't represent a profession-what combat drones do can be done by guns or missiles-so the entry barrier is irrelevant to those who already possess the skills.

The only people who gain from this change are those who do not have SDO V and CDO V. People with only SDO V gain all the benefits of CDO V. Those who have just trained basic drone skills to use light and medium drones gain up to a 50% bonus (I think? Just going off of memory and don't care to check because it doesn't actually affect me) on their damage due to drone and skill rebalancing to close the gap between T1 and T2. All that people with SDO V and CDO V get is maybe an increased bill for their clone due to SP inflation.

I'm just going to give everyone the same (lets say perfect) score on the exam

Yes. So what's your point?

[...]

Now sure, if these were indy skills, and CCP suddenly decided to make Material Efficiency a rank 10 skill, there would be a lot of existing industrialists who would gain by the increased entry barrier to the profession. But, combat drones don't represent a profession-what combat drones do can be done by guns or missiles-so the entry barrier is irrelevant to those who already possess the skills.

[...]

You re- people really don't have enough to worry about in your lives if you're spending this much effort over such a tiny imagined injustice, one that leaves you no worse off than you were before.

this coming from former member of the CSM what a joke))

this coming from former member of the CSM what a joke))

That's right, assuming of course he doesn't have Combat Drone Operation trained to V.

When we determine which of the two skills (Scout and Combat Drone Operation) is higher we take into account any partial training and apply it to the new skills as well.

So right now I have Scout Drone Operation to V and Combat Drone Operation to IV.
At what level will my Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation skills be after Kronos?

this coming from former member of the CSM what a joke))

both V

The idea that I would take the whining of entitled brats getting teary-eyed that they're not getting free stuff seriously is the joke

One of my characters got hit by this. I have for the most part been inactive for the last few months, just logging in to train skills while lamenting on where my life went so, so wrong.

I try to keep up with EVE, and read the dev blogs, especially before patches. So naturally, the first thing I did when I read the drone dev blog was put CDO V in the queue for the character that still didn't have it. And that was the end of that, pretty much. By the time I found out about this most recent change, it was too late.

Did I lose anything? No. Did I benefit disproportionately less than others, especially those who keep up with the forums at all times, or those who don't even care about the changes? Yeah, I did. I'm probably not going to miss that 400,000 SP or so in my collective pool of a billion, but it's still unfair, in my eyes, that a reimbursement won't occur (obviously coupled with not receiving the new rank 2 skill along with the free SP; I'm not trying to get a freebie, though everyone should be subject to these same rules).

I don't remember that forum-reading was a requirement for EVE. Nor do I remember the blogs being updated with the new information [edit: within a reasonable amount of time], and/or new, visible announcements being made with regard to the planned changes. I, like others, acted on the information that was available to me, and got punished for it.

I skimmed this thread, and it seems to me that people against the idea of reimbursement use the "speculation" line of reasoning as the basis of their argument. Well, despite changes not being set in stone, acting on those changes with regard to skill training is not speculation. Remember when the BC and destroyer skills got changed? CCP didn't make those announcements while winking and coyly saying "well, it might happen, it might not, who knows?" The message was essentially "n-word, take care of that **** now before it's too late." There's nothing speculative about acting on a skill change that's announced ahead of time for the sole purpose of getting players to act on that information before the change happens.

Anyways, I'm obviously rage-quitting over this, so if you want my stuff, look out for a cargo-expanded freighter on autopilot to Jita.

This "most recent change" which was reported 2 days after releasing the dev blog.

Sure, it would have been more obvious if the dev blog would have been updated, then again, from what you say, you probably wouldn't have seen that either, would you?

Reading the forums is not a requirement for EVE. Reading the dev blogs isn't either, btw.
But if you want to profit from changes yet to come it can be expected you keep yourself informed, or accept the consequences.
+
By the way, why do you think the sole purpose of announcing that change was to let players act on that information, as opposed to gather feedback as I'd expect from a devblog?
Feedback which was listened and reacted to, by the way.

The mentioned consequences aren't a big deal either. You're still better off than everyone training drones after the changes.

Why do you want to be ahead even more?

If you want to game future skill changes to save yourself some training time, then that's seeking to profit from those changes.

If you want the playing field to be even, then why do you not consider the people who did not read the dev blog at all and have not trained drone skills yet

or people who will start EVE this month or later and will have to spend more training time on the drone skills than you had to?
If you want a reimbursement, then of course you want to be ahead of those people even more.

And if people chose to wait whether the changes will be adjusted, and because there was no hurry at all to train those skills immediately after the dev blog, then they were playing the speculating game smarter than you.

I don't think it's far-fetched to assume that a dev blog about future changes expresses the developers intent, and not unchangeable facts.

512,000 sp. That's almost ten days of "nothing". Or two rank 1 skills to 5. To be clear, I don't care if I get them or not, but to suggest they're meaningless is dishonest.

Sure. But by the same token, the notion that they somehow should get a bunch of SP GÇ£backGÇ¥ for some kind of loss is pretty silly. After all, they still have all their abilities.

Yes, others might have gained abilities, but that is not a reimbursable loss.

However, there's a marked difference between being penalized for acting on new information immediately, and not acting on any information whatsoever despite that information being available for a very long time. Do you not see how these two things are different?

There's always a chance that uninformed people do the right thing by coincidence.

but I don't like when people argue with "fairness" while wanting to have more of an advantage over other people (the new players) than they already got.

I still think, as I once mentioned half jokingly, that the fairest would be to use the current approach (so nobody loses any ability), but then to force all characters who gained skill points in the process to have a training break according to the SP they gained, so no advantages for anyone.
There'd be a lot more screaming on these forums then, I guess.

How does one even break this rule? Did they charge the ban barrier with their battering troll?