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embrel
BamBam Inc.
170
   |
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Every time someone asks CCP to do something that is entirely within the control of players, what they are actually doing is losing EVE.
Pollution or wars are entirely in the hand of us humans too and they won't stop neither. This is because there are different rules governing individuals or groups. So theoretically you're right, practically not.
Game mechanics lead to organizations behaving as they do.
As long as these don't change we'll come to the same result most of the times. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
10815
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Hey, uh...
I think you should look at your corp.
The one that you've made a couple dozen attempts to get into without success?
Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Higgs Foton
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
124
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Karen Avioras wrote:Why dont you start a crusade against them instead of whining?  I for once, think the old POS at moons method was far more interesting.
I agree with this. It was much more interesting then this "shoot several structures which make no sense at all" we have now. Other thing is CCP is implementing stuff which has unforseen consequences. The nerf in moongoo led to the rise of the renter empires. In ye olde days the alliances got their income from that, and you had somewhat more diversity. Take that away, and the alliances look at new ways to get revenue. And such we see large powerblocks take huge swaths of space top rent them out.
One thing which could be done i stop payments to concord. I really see no logical reason why an alliance should pay rent to hold up sov in a region they conquered themselves. Also vastly increasing null sec will help as well.
Thing is, the current mechanics force people to cooperate and organise themself to an level unheard of in other MMORPG. People in the CFC know to what length Goonswarm went to organise themselves, and when we in 4S joined goons i was quite amazed at the level or organisation. Most alliances i have been in had to organise to a pretty high level, and those who didn't are the ones who dissappeared over time. You can't have an alliance and just go for the lulz if you also want to have sov. The mechanics force you to organise to a (semi) professional level.
CCP seeks the solution in making things harder and more complex, which in turn force alliances to get more organised. The soluition is to make things easier. Not requiring costs to upheld sov is such a method. This would remove the incentive to hold space for renting empires. Going back to the old sov system tied to posses would be another one. If you want people to have fun and happily shoot each other you really shoudl stop forcing them into politics and economics to keep up their empires.
*Snip* Removed trolling part of the post. ISD Ezwal.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. |
Prince Kobol
1860
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Pine Marten wrote:
And where will you be getting your supers from and in such supply that the overlords actually view you as a threat? Wont happen.
Nothing will ever change. If anything, get worse.
I believe this is why ccp has never made new regions available, since they will just be claimed for their moongoo and then rented out. whats the point in that? Not worth new regions imo. Situation sucks as is.
Elite: Dangerous all the way.
No, the reason new regions has never introduced is because we already have enough empty space as it is without adding more to it.
You say the situation sucks yet you offer no alternative?
It is easy to something is broke without offering some kind of alternative. What do you think should be changed?
Keep in mind that what ever changes you think should be made these things will still exist
1. Supers and Titans
2. Isk in the wallets of Alliances / Corps
3. Number of Players in Alliances
4. Capital Production Facilities.
So with this in mind short of CCP magically removing all Carriers / Dreads / Supers / Titans / Isk / BPO's from the game what exactly do you want them to do?
Personally I think the situation currently sucks but I am not crying about it because I can appreciate what an amazing difficult job balancing Sov is.
What ever changes you implement those who have more Numbers / Isk / Capitals will always benefit more. I have spoken at length about this with friends in game over the past few years and ever signle alternative that has even been brought up, those with Numbers / Isk / Capitals come out on top. |
Remiel Pollard
The 0th Fleet
A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
3287
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
embrel wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:
Every time someone asks CCP to do something that is entirely within the control of players, what they are actually doing is losing EVE.
Pollution or wars are entirely in the hand of us humans too and they won't stop neither. This is because there are different rules governing individuals or groups. So theoretically you're right, practically not. Game mechanics lead to organizations behaving as they do. As long as these don't change we'll come to the same result most of the times.
The cynicism is strong with this one.
Game mechanics allow organisations to behave however they like. They don't lead to or cause anything, because the mechanics are a tool - they are there to allow and restrict, not cause.
You don't scare me. I've been to Jita.
[email protected] |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
6687
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
If you don't like renting, go kill some renters.
It really is that simple.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
170
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:embrel wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:
Every time someone asks CCP to do something that is entirely within the control of players, what they are actually doing is losing EVE.
Pollution or wars are entirely in the hand of us humans too and they won't stop neither. This is because there are different rules governing individuals or groups. So theoretically you're right, practically not. Game mechanics lead to organizations behaving as they do. As long as these don't change we'll come to the same result most of the times. The cynicism is strong with this one. Game mechanics allow organisations to behave however they like. They don't lead to or cause anything, because the mechanics are a tool - they are there to allow and restrict, not cause.
If a game is setup a certain way it tends to have a certain result. Prisoners dilemma and such. I truly think this is the case here.
But, you're right, cynicism is strong. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
170
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:34:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If you don't like renting, buy a house.
It really is that simple.
fixed that. |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Shadow Plague
Fidelas Constans
1275
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
Remember how the CFC april fools joke was that rental systems were being created...and then it actually happened.
Also remember when Shadoo suggested we should just all forget about sov altogether, go to one region, de blue each other and shoot each other for fun....and everyone laughed at him he had to quit and become a hermit in the Australian outback or something...and now that also is actually happening.
It's like, some people are clairvoyantly gifted, or something. |
Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
I don't understand the complaint. If you can't take the systems from the owners of sov by force, you want what? For CCP to just take it away and give it to you? Thats's not how it works. It reminds me exactly of the real life whine of the poor and minimm wage earners. They DEMAND that the government "fix" somethig that really isn't broken and then start throwing around phrases like "re-distribution of wealth".
When the time comes that CCP arbitrarily takes what I have earned and gives it to beggers, thats the day I quit forever and biomass my characters. No chance of returning...
You have 3 choices:
1). Fight for it.
2). Live with it.
3). Quit.
|
Dave Stark
6130
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Andski wrote:Xenuria wrote:Hey, uh...
I think you should look at your corp.
The one that you've made a couple dozen attempts to get into without success?
i chuckled. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
4805
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:
The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?
Nope.
Working as nintendoed
"A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares
"(Understanding when to fight and when not to) doesn't make the cautious pilot a care bear.... it makes him a winner." - Barbara Nichole |
Ryuu Towryk
Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
The tears would be wonderful were this to change.
 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1964
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
Make it harder to move around, making null areas be more localized. This way unless someone is actually active/ability to defend they won't hold it. Occupants who can't defend themselves will lose their space since their pimps can't easily move 3 regions to defend them.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
170
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
Doc Severide wrote:I don't understand the complaint. If you can't take the systems from the owners of sov by force, you want what? For CCP to just take it away and give it to you? Thats's not how it works. It reminds me exactly of the real life whine of the poor and minimm wage earners. They DEMAND that the government "fix" somethig that really isn't broken and then start throwing around phrases like "re-distribution of wealth".
When the time comes that CCP arbitrarily takes what I have earned and gives it to beggers, thats the day I quit forever and biomass my characters. No chance of returning...
You have 3 choices:
1). Fight for it.
2). Live with it.
3). Quit.
ah yeah... you're the sort that defends a monopoly.
in regard to Eve: Personally I don't care about renting. For the game I guess less renting would be better as it seems this could lead to more competition.
in regard to the poor: it depends. To me a system where the poor cannot afford to see a doctor is by definition broken. Fortunately, I live in a very liberal (not the american meaning...) country where we're free to capitalism and see a doctor nonetheless. So, there are different views on when a system is broken. To me the breaking starts when there is just a tiny chance left for a poor to live the American dream.
which means in regard to Eve: when there's basically no chance for a small entitiy to grow independently of current super powers. As that currently still seems feasible... |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Shadow Plague
Fidelas Constans
1275
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Schrodinger's 0.0, the space in eve that everyone agrees is both perpetually broken and in desperate need of iteration, and yet everyone also agrees currently works perfectly as intended and does not need CCP to touch it. |
Pine Marten
Viziam
Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
Even with Kronos which the industry half was "delayed" and will be the first min-expansion patch (lol) I don't think we get enough for a 6 month expansion. I dont think it is an expansion in the sense of what other games get. A couple new ships and a re-do of a bunch of others? Other games get those weekly or bi-weekly, not every 6 months and say "hey, heres an expansion"
A couple mods for haulers?
Supers limited to 10 drones...
Lowsec stuff.
I dont think its an expansion..
And before you ppl say "its free", CCP thought LONG AGO when they first made new eden that expansions were going to be free, because its obviously a marketing ploy. You can't have eve as it is and charge for content. What would they have resorted to? Locking people out of gates? Limit on sp? Who knows cause it didn't happen. FREE EXPANSIONS! EVEN IF THEY ARE BROKEN! Remember the planetary interaction debacle? I mean, how did that fall under the radar and make it through testing? Inside job, thats how. Its obvious. Only fanbois wont admit or those in on it.
And before you say leave, already cancelled. gonna take my years sub and just go fund elite. And no, no stuff to give. already trashed it. Wont biomass though, game might actually be better at the end of their "5 year plan" LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6602
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:45:00 -
[48] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.pngThe entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here? I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc. Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster. troll away or not 
I'll copy/past from a recent discussion on the issue found here.
--
Tauranon wrote:
The way renting works is that the most efficient use of a system is a moderate number of people on all day, ie a corp with 200 people that play 10 hours a month, is an ideal renter candidate and a terrible sov holder candidate. ie a top end system can support about 10 simultaneous ratters, so it has roughly 7000 ratting hours available a month, and a 200 player corp needing 2000 ratting hours a month can easily fit in 1 system if they are diffuse for time zone, but they'll lose strategic objectives to a 30 man corp that all logs on at the same time every day. A corp of 30 people that all log in all the same time every day, need 2 or 3 systems to be able to rat...
That touches on why Most null sec space is better for renting than actually living in, and why people choose to rent rather than fight for the space. It's not so much "omg the blob/they have all the super carriers" like a lot of non-null sec people want to believe, because the blob can be challenged. It's 'why bother fighting for something that doesn't really meet anyone's needs when you can just rent it?'.
There is a "fun quotient" situation here. Big alliances rent out space because it's more fun to rent out space that would be otherwise useless and take the proceeds of that to fund 'fun activities' like gudfights. Smaller groups rent space because it's more fun to have someplace to rat/mine and then take the proceeds of those activities to fund other things like roaming/raiding and market pvp ect ect.
The irony of this is that null sec was much less a "rent only" thing before this. The whole plan was to 'give people a reason to fight for space'.
Before the above linked change, ANY system could be upgraded to a pretty good level of usefulness (ie every upgraded system had 2 sanctums and 2 havens + forsaken and forlorn hubs and rally points, more than enough for a small group to live off of).
AFTER this change, rather than more fighting, null sec turned into "Rentistan"
--
Null sec is like ti is not just because of SOV issue or CCPs changes to the upgrades system, but also because since 2008/9 CCP has been stuffing the game with more and more PVE isk making content, lessening the need to go to or take null sec space.
When i 1st went to SOV null in 2008 we live in Omist, far from empire (cut off from direct access by the Russians holding Detorid, Insmother and other regions. There was no upgrade system and if you were USTZ and got on late, all the sigs and anoms were soaked up (damn the Euros, 2 world wars and THEN they got all the after downtime PVE too, grrr Europe). I remember having to go 7 or 8 jumps just to find a system empty enough to BELT RAT in.
And yet, even doing all that I was making good isk. And if you found a 10/10, you were in luck because before the DED plex loot nerf you knew you'd make at least 500 mil from it. That was a lot of isk in 2008 lol.
Now you don't even have to ever step foot in null to see that kind of isk. High Sec Incursions (which actually get run unlike incursins on other space), Wormholes, "rewards" for faction warfare (which are still stupidly insane) and CCPs stuffing of low sec with more and more rewards (like formerly high sec only exploration content, new mods like pithum invuls, belt rats that drop tags and now mordus ship BPCs etc etc etc). All of these things and more totally moot the basic reasons people like me went to null sec in the 1st place.
And there is no way to fix it ("it" being the risk reward scheme that would encourage people to actually live in null in their own space rather than just hold space to rent out and 'live' on alts) now. None at all other than rolling the game back to 2008 or expanding the rewards of null to a point where it breaks the EVE economy.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6602
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
Pine Marten wrote:
A couple mods for haulers?
Supers limited to 10 drones...
Lowsec stuff.
I dont think its an expansion..
Then you think wrong lol. Just because an expansion doesn't give YOU 10 million new things doesn't make it not an expansion.
A whole new 'pirate' faction is (in and of it's self) enough to call it an expansion. There are so many game changing things in Kronos it's not even funny, like the 1st ever Covert Cloaky mining ship, new pve content, incredible changes to faction warfare, new ship models, a whole sale change to Freighters and change to the amounts of certain wormholes and where they go ect ect.
I sometimes think that Jesus could fly out of heaven (with a jetpack, wings are so 20th century), land and some of you people's houses and personally hand you blueprints to cold fusion reactors and inter-dimensional jump drives and you'd still be all like "is that all???"......... |
Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
479
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
I don't understand......
For months now all these null dwellers have been crying/hollering about all the money is in high sec and CCP has been obliging with nerfs to high sec and buffs to null.
And now they are telling us that there is so much money in Null that people pay billions to rent systems there????
Yep, they sure deserve big buff to industry too. 
Nerf Goons
Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6602
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 12:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:I don't understand...... For months now all these null dwellers have been crying/hollering about all the money is in high sec and CCP has been obliging with nerfs to high sec and buffs to null. And now they are telling us that there is so much money in Null that people pay billions to rent systems there???? Yep, they sure deserve big buff to industry too.
Please detail 1 single buff to null in the last 18 months. Thanks in advance. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira.
Villore Accords
547
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 13:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Silky Cyno wrote:Its the cold war again.
So we can expect a C=64 version of EvE soon then? |
Prince Kobol
1868
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 13:08:00 -
[53] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Make it harder to move around, making null areas be more localized. This way unless someone is actually active/ability to defend they won't hold it. Occupants who can't defend themselves will lose their space since their pimps can't easily move 3 regions to defend them.
You do realise that what you suggest will make it even harder for the smaller alliances to hold Sov don't you?
With your idea those with more will come out on top and will be even more entrenched.
|
Felicity Love
It Was the Year 3030
1853
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 13:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:
Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.
There's no real reason CCCP should do anything. Alliances have achieved control, by one means or another, and have simply taken the lead in doing what the dev's want all players to do: take control of the game.
This is nothing new. EVE has been headed in this direction for a few years now. "Player Control" has been a major, forward-thinking theme in this game's design for several years now.
Players have to "do something", not the devs.
Make it so, or die (repeatedly) trying. 
"HTFU ! " -á--- -áKatee Sackhoff, aka "The F-Bomb Queen of EVE" ! !-á
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1964
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 13:23:00 -
[55] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Make it harder to move around, making null areas be more localized. This way unless someone is actually active/ability to defend they won't hold it. Occupants who can't defend themselves will lose their space since their pimps can't easily move 3 regions to defend them. You do realise that what you suggest will make it even harder for the smaller alliances to hold Sov don't you? With your idea those with more will come out on top and will be even more entrenched.
Larger alliances/coalitions will always have superiority. Making it harder for these coalitions and large alliances to power project, the better it is for smaller/new alliances.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury
Tactical Narcotics Team
423
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 13:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Why is this an issue?
They need to rent from someone, and that someone is still doing al the things that need doing. Besides, if it brings more people to Null, how is that bad?
Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Black Canary Jnr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
107
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 13:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
Just make a partially activity related sov already CCP (need mechanisms to attack and defend, so not fully activity related)
Watch entire regions drop sov as GSF, PL and all the other over stretched entities can't hold onto it, so that new players can get into 0.0.
If CCP fucks up sov again and allows the status quo to survive (Ie. 5000 man alliances owning several regions despite not actually living there) then 0.0 is ****** and there's no reason to stay there. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1509
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 13:57:00 -
[58] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Game mechanics allow organisations to behave however they like. They don't lead to or cause anything, because the mechanics are a tool - they are there to allow and restrict, not cause.
Why suicide Catalyst doesn't have a tank?
Is it because players don't like tanking their ships?
Or maybe CONCORD (game mechanics) makes it so tanking suicide Catalyst is useless?
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Xavier Higdon
Callide Vulpis
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
361
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 14:05:00 -
[59] - Quote
This is in reply solely to the OP, and not to any posts past that point which I haven't had the chance read yet. I wanted to post a reply that dealt solely with his point of view first, since I think he shares that point of view with a lot of people, and that this view is a big part of the problem.
Do you know how you can do something about this? You get up(well, sit down at your computer actually), and start working towards it. Before you even start, you might fail. If this happens, you try again. You might fail, a lot, before things start rolling but the important thing is that you have clearly defined goals and you keep working towards them. At this point, you may start to succeed and then something happens. You're betrayed by someone you thought was a friend, or you lose a decisive battle and have to back track, giving up all or most of the gains you'd made.
You see, right there is where everybody thinks it's over. This is "game over" for so many people, it's the end, the fall of your dynasty, and because they fear that this is going to happen, they never play to begin with. They never start the journey because they're afraid it's going to end early. But, there's a way to prevent this from being the end, and it's really simple. You don't let it be. You tactically retreat, you drop Sov instead of letting them grind it, keeping them busy with claiming and securing the systems you just "gave" them, and then you hit in them from behind. That Amarr Control Tower they're bringing in to start mining moon goo again? Blow it up before it gets there. The fuel they're bringing with it? Blow that up to. The important thing here is to make their lives miserable and to give your members the moral boost they need after being beaten. From here, it's either up and up, or down and out. That's the choice you'll be faced with.
The reality, however, is that most people will never get to that point. From my time in this game I have met many people that just simple say, "It can't be done." Their attitude is that because they don't have as many Titans as the CFC, they shouldn't even bother trying. The funny thing is, this is exactly what the coalitions want. They want you not to try, because if you don't ever try, they can never lose. So how about you try? Start now, building your network of friends(and enemies), making connections with others, running fleets with them, set up a TS3 or Mumble server for you guys. These connections will be the foundation for starting a corporation that can grow into something great. It's going to take a long time, and it's going to be hard work, but if it's what you want, it'll be worth it.
If you think this can't be done, that nobody can carve out Sov without bowing to one of the current super coalitions, then maybe you should go have a chat with the HERO Coalition and the Brave Collective, who have been carving out a nice little piece of the pie for themselves lately. They've succeeded because they want to. They have decided upon goals and they're pursuing them as we speak. They're losing ships right now, and not letting it destroy them. They're winning right now, and yet not becoming arrogant. One day, OP, if your attitude doesn't change you may be on these very forums linking a webpage that shows how the Brave Collective's rental alliance(let's call them the Sorta Brave Associates) controls all of the South. |
Xavier Higdon
Callide Vulpis
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
361
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 14:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
Pine Marten wrote:*Tantrum*
I just want to thank you for your previous donations to my entertainment. People like you have helped to keep this game going, and you have helped CCP to improve it time and again. I just wish you weren't leaving, I wish you would continue to pay the $15 a month to complain like you were before. I'm sad to see your money go. |
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