Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

Start a corp.

Recruit.

Grow.

Take Sov.

Stop Complaining.

???????

Profit?

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

What about the part about being stung by bees? Do you have a plan to deal with that?

It's not as if it's untrue

3 of the 4 top alliances by systems held are renter alliances. PBLRD, NA. and B0T combined are nearly equal in membership to the 3 largest PvP alliances.

This is worse than technetium.

CCP did something about it, they nerfed moongoo value, so that systems were more valuable to empires as living quarters than they were as empty buffer space around very-important-towers (tm).

Why is it good for nullsec

(a) rise in population
(b) rise in corporation units that are sized for small gang warfare, that are not deployed to strategic objectives, and thus are not fleeted up in strategic sized units.

ie its likely that a good 5 man crew will get a fight or at least intercept some unwary traffic in Vale, without much fear that the CFC will order a cleanup on aisle 9 and eject you with 100 ships when you finally made someone angry by shooting the wrong afktar. In fact they only come when you start with the SBUs or their goo towers, they don't do local security.

One imagines that careful observations of NA regions would also locate regions that provide content for small gangs.

I do think this is an intermediate phase for the game, a phase where the average bear has the opportunity to lose his or her fear of null, and if you are a risk averse highsec bear, this may be the best time ever to try nullsec life.

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

Why dont you start a crusade against them instead of whining?

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

Will CCP ever do anything about this?

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

Start a corp, we must fight this injustice, I will be happy to join up and help you take back these large areas of 0.0 and make sure others get to enjoy them as well, without renting, but by putting effort into holding their sov.

It's not as if it's untrue

3 of the 4 top alliances by systems held are renter alliances. PBLRD, NA. and B0T combined are nearly equal in membership to the 3 largest PvP alliances.

This is worse than technetium.

Why dont you start a crusade against them instead of whining?

Every time someone asks CCP to do something that is entirely within the control of players, what they are actually doing is losing EVE.

Hey, uh...
I think you should look at your corp.

I for once, think the old POS at moons method was far more interesting.

And where will you be getting your supers from and in such supply that the overlords actually view you as a threat? Wont happen.

Nothing will ever change. If anything, get worse.

I believe this is why ccp has never made new regions available, since they will just be claimed for their moongoo and then rented out. whats the point in that? Not worth new regions imo. Situation sucks as is.

Elite: Dangerous all the way.

Pollution or wars are entirely in the hand of us humans too and they won't stop neither. This is because there are different rules governing individuals or groups. So theoretically you're right, practically not.

Game mechanics lead to organizations behaving as they do.

As long as these don't change we'll come to the same result most of the times.

The cynicism is strong with this one.

Game mechanics allow organisations to behave however they like. They don't lead to or cause anything, because the mechanics are a tool - they are there to allow and restrict, not cause.

If you don't like renting, buy a house.

It really is that simple.

The one that you've made a couple dozen attempts to get into without success?

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I don't understand the complaint. If you can't take the systems from the owners of sov by force, you want what? For CCP to just take it away and give it to you? Thats's not how it works. It reminds me exactly of the real life whine of the poor and minimm wage earners. They DEMAND that the government "fix" somethig that really isn't broken and then start throwing around phrases like "re-distribution of wealth".
When the time comes that CCP arbitrarily takes what I have earned and gives it to beggers, thats the day I quit forever and biomass my characters. No chance of returning...

You have 3 choices:

1). Fight for it.

2). Live with it.

3). Quit.

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

The way renting works is that the most efficient use of a system is a moderate number of people on all day, ie a corp with 200 people that play 10 hours a month, is an ideal renter candidate and a terrible sov holder candidate. ie a top end system can support about 10 simultaneous ratters, so it has roughly 7000 ratting hours available a month, and a 200 player corp needing 2000 ratting hours a month can easily fit in 1 system if they are diffuse for time zone, but they'll lose strategic objectives to a 30 man corp that all logs on at the same time every day. A corp of 30 people that all log in all the same time every day, need 2 or 3 systems to be able to rat...

A couple mods for haulers?

Supers limited to 10 drones...

Lowsec stuff.

I dont think its an expansion..

I don't understand......

For months now all these null dwellers have been crying/hollering about all the money is in high sec and CCP has been obliging with nerfs to high sec and buffs to null.

And now they are telling us that there is so much money in Null that people pay billions to rent systems there????

Yep, they sure deserve big buff to industry too.

Its the cold war again.

Make it harder to move around, making null areas be more localized. This way unless someone is actually active/ability to defend they won't hold it. Occupants who can't defend themselves will lose their space since their pimps can't easily move 3 regions to defend them.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

You do realise that what you suggest will make it even harder for the smaller alliances to hold Sov don't you?

With your idea those with more will come out on top and will be even more entrenched.

Game mechanics allow organisations to behave however they like. They don't lead to or cause anything, because the mechanics are a tool - they are there to allow and restrict, not cause.

*Tantrum*

everyone agrees

Fundamentally, I don't see how rental runs contrary to any "intention" of EVE. The OP's first assumption is there is a way EVE is meant to be. Sure, maybe he's been staring at asteroids too long and started to think (an enterprise with which everyone isn't safe.) Or, it could be in his desperate longing for that ideal corp which never manages to materialize, he's let his mind drift into territory interesting only to his shrink and governed only by thorazine. Whatever the case, EVE has no "this is how it's supposed to be" configuration. It sometimes appeals to some folks, while at the same time not to others. Or, things become reversed - vice versa, as it is said.

What bugs people, I guess, who are rampant PvP-ers (and who get actual rashes and a ringing in their ears when the idea of PvE fires what few synapses they do possess) is that someone can come up with methods to productively spend time without running around virtually killing everything in sight (while pretending not to run from things that can virtually kill YOU.) Since PvE-ers comprise a solid majority in gaming, and always will, it's never unusual to see a cooperative venture (such as you see with renting in EVE today) arise and flourish. In fact, it's inevitable when you're dealing with a group with a lot more synapses to fire than rampant PvP-ers can imagine to possess. It's, as we say, a natural function of intelligence!

That itching, and twitching that makes you convulse in your seat as you imagine people actually being cooperative instead of destroying each other; that closing-in of the walls, and ringing in your ears as you see people want to build instead of fight, that's just your brain telling you, you have something out of balance - out of whack - malfunctioning in a major way. Rather than come into this forum and cry, you should seek professional help. There are people out there trained to deal with your problem.

Your alternative (as it will always be with EVE) is to pull together sufficient force to use the slash and burn technique of diplomacy and teach these fools the meaning of life...er, death. After all, this is EVE. Who is there to stop you, hmm?

Larger alliances/coalitions will always have superiority. Making it harder for these coalitions and large alliances to power project, the better it is for smaller/new alliances.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

The same can be said about the world.

Just because there's no defined end-point does not exclude the possibility to think about the current state at all.



how this relates to the topic at hand... well it's about Eve I guess.



A highlight in any post on this forum... the advice to seek professional help. Sometimes I wonder whether this forum is used by a psychiatric society as a PR-platform.

in good ole Eve-style... people who want to build play Lego.



who's there to stop me: RL

I agree with the OP somewhat, in the sense that large coalititions owning all this space and renting it out just creates an even bigger hurlde to act in defiance of the renting principle.

I agree with the OP somewhat, in the sense that large coalititions owning all this space and renting it out just creates an even bigger hurlde to act in defiance of the renting principle. When I look at the effort involved in dethroning these alliances I run into a tiny little problem called having a life and basicly not caring enough about a video game to spend the time / effort required to even make a dent in their dominion. I guess it's the same for most other players, so nobody is going to realisticly stop them.

I have started Eve about 3 years ago, and untill this very day you will have to pay me handsomely to bother with anyone else's nullsec power fantasy. The one time I've been in a nullsec alliance I hated everything about it, from the impossible logistics for newbies to the raging sperglords making dubious demands. To me, nullsec isn't even part of the game I play. It's another game that exists next to mine and occasionally spills over. Whatever happens in nullsec... I just don't care, I'm never going back anyway.

Too much of a casual to give a ****. RL says **** nullsec.

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

So until CCP strongly reduce power projection and rework the sov system, then 0,0 will be:~~

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean....

Uhhh....try another game? Something a bit more relaxing? And, stay away from places where sarcasm is used a lot! There you go!

Are you arguing that because you don't play the game as much as others, CCP should reward you by making it easier for you to take and hold sovereignty? That's a terrible excuse for why you don't do anything in game. The people controlling null sec now put in the time and effort to take control of such huge swathes of space, and you should have to put in at least as much time and effort to take it from them, plain and simple.

Im sorry but I still dont see whats wrong with any of this

Can someone explain what the problem is?

Im sorry but I still dont see whats wrong with any of this

Can someone explain what the problem is?

If you think this can't be done, that nobody can carve out Sov without bowing to one of the current super coalitions, then maybe you should go have a chat with the HERO Coalition and the Brave Collective, who have been carving out a nice little piece of the pie for themselves lately. They've succeeded because they want to. They have decided upon goals and they're pursuing them as we speak. They're losing ships right now, and not letting it destroy them. They're winning right now, and yet not becoming arrogant. One day, OP, if your attitude doesn't change you may be on these very forums linking a webpage that shows how the Brave Collective's rental alliance(let's call them the Sorta Brave Associates) controls all of the South.

De gustibus non est disputandem I suppose. If the current state of 0.0 is to your taste, then no changes need be made, I suppose.

But I and almost everyone I have ever spoken to in 0.0 would prefer a far more finely textured political map, where far smaller group sizes were viable.

Never stop trying. One day you'll make a joke too.

0.0 has reached the stable state implied by the combination of Dominion sov mechanics and grossly overpowered force projection.

Force projection needs to be hugely, radically, massively scaled back. At the moment, it is possible move a capital fleet from one end of the map to the other in less than half an hour: the largest ships in EVE are also the quickest to move around. The logical implication of this is that you need to be able to defend yourself from everybody in 0.0; if they're in a coalition, then you have to be in a coalition. If your coalition is weaker than their coalition then there is nowhere to hide, no way to use terrain to meet them on equal terms a la Thermopylae. So you have to join a larger group to fight them. And if your coalition is stronger, then equally they need to increase the size of their coalition to survive.

And so on until... you have two roughly equal size groups.

As we do now.

The Dominion sov system only enables this state of affairs. With remote timer griefing, it takes a week to conquer even an undefended station system. The defender need only win a single fight to reverse all the progress made in that system. Thus large groups can ignore attempts by smaller groups to snipe off chunks of their territory when they're deployed far away; they can ignore the problem for 6 days, jump back on the 7th, restore all damage, then return to the front.

So until CCP strongly reduce power projection and rework the sov system, then 0,0 will be:~~

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean....

De gustibus non est disputandem I suppose. If the current state of 0.0 is to your taste, then no changes need be made, I suppose.

But I and almost everyone I have ever spoken to in 0.0 would prefer a far more finely textured political map, where far smaller group sizes were viable.

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing.

There are scifi backgrounds where either or even both exist, but Im not sure making Null into The Periphery (to use a Battletech reference) is as interesting a concept as allowing players to form the Successor States

Stereotypes Held by the Inner Sphere High Sec

The common Spheroid high Sec Dweller perceives the Periphery null sec in one of three ways:

The Periphery null Sec is largely unpopulated. The inhabitants are brave (or foolish) scammers and gankers. Little centralized government and economy means poor education and medicine blue ass donut.
Worse, the Periphery Null sec is home of interstellar villains bent on destruction Goons.
The denizens of the Periphery Nullsec, mainly goons care nothing for the welfare of the Inner Sphere EVE Online.

How will severely nerfing power projection make life better for smaller sized groups?

It works like I said: at the moment if you want to hold territory in 0.0, literally everyone on the map is your neighbour. If you nerf radically power projection then you have a situation where eg: mighty Coalition A based in Deklein can't go pick on smaller group B based in Catch without leaving their home infrastructure vulnerable. Sure, they can go do it, but they'll be risking a lot. Also, Smaller Group B is very unlikely to join in on a cross-map attack on Mighty Group A, so there is less incentive to subdue or eradicate them in the first place.

Therefore mighty coalition A will be inclined to look for more important targets who are closer to home so that they can get back and protect their home systems and CSAA yards in time and which are relevent to their interests.

Meanwhile, because smaller group B isn't faced with immediate threat from Mighty Coalition A (unless they go out of their way to provoke them) they aren't under as much pressure to join Mighty Coalition B out of sheer self defence.

Yes, smaller group B might have slightly increased logistics issues, but the trade-off is that they only need to supply themselves sufficiently to fight a war vs smaller group C in Immensea.

In short, a power projection nerf means that it's not as necessary - or even useful - to keep on expanding bloc sizes until there are literally only 2 megablocs left.

So the tl;dr is that a PP nerf would possibly allow smaller groups to exist at all. After all, it could hardly make there be any fewer.

Ok, I can see that

But given the parameters under which the game operates;
Will not it be the case that without artificial barriers to the control of power that make aiming for an Empire of your own impossible this will always be the status?

In other words;

Is it more fun to have a thousand fiefdoms scrabbling in the dirt with no chance of advantage than the natural progression to player owned Empires, which, if allowed to mature, should be able to threaten the NPC empires, possibly (someday) leading to no NPC power blocks bigger than individual PvE generating corps?

I can perfectly accept that the former would appeal to a large number of people, but given human nature I find the latter a more realistic reflection of how a universe such as EvE's would eventually work out.

There are scifi backgrounds where either or even both exist, but Im not sure making Null into The Periphery (to use a Battletech reference) is as interesting a concept as allowing players to form the Successor States

It works like I said: at the moment if you want to hold territory in 0.0, literally everyone on the map is your neighbour. If you nerf radically power projection then you have a situation where eg: mighty Coalition A based in Deklein can't go pick on smaller group B based in Catch without leaving their home infrastructure vulnerable. Sure, they can go do it, but they'll be risking a lot. Also, Smaller Group B is very unlikely to join in on a cross-map attack on Mighty Group A, so there is less incentive to subdue or eradicate them in the first place.

Therefore mighty coalition A will be inclined to look for more important targets who are closer to home so that they can get back and protect their home systems and CSAA yards in time and which are relevent to their interests.

Meanwhile, because smaller group B isn't faced with immediate threat from Mighty Coalition A (unless they go out of their way to provoke them) they aren't under as much pressure to join Mighty Coalition B out of sheer self defence.

Yes, smaller group B might have slightly increased logistics issues, but the trade-off is that they only need to supply themselves sufficiently to fight a war vs smaller group C in Immensea.

In short, a power projection nerf means that it's not as necessary - or even useful - to keep on expanding bloc sizes until there are literally only 2 megablocs left.

So the tl;dr is that a PP nerf would possibly allow smaller groups to exist at all. After all, it could hardly make there be any fewer.

I don't understand the complaint. If you can't take the systems from the owners of sov by force, you want what? For CCP to just take it away and give it to you? Thats's not how it works. It reminds me exactly of the real life whine of the poor and minimm wage earners. They DEMAND that the government "fix" somethig that really isn't broken and then start throwing around phrases like "re-distribution of wealth".
When the time comes that CCP arbitrarily takes what I have earned and gives it to beggers, thats the day I quit forever and biomass my characters. No chance of returning...

You have 3 choices:

1). Fight for it.

2). Live with it.

3). Quit.

Yeah I think it's hugely more fun to have frequent 100-300 v 100-300 sized fleet fights rather than very occasional 1500 v 1500 sized fleet fights.

Part of the fun of commanding legions of ships and conquering territory and enemies for glory and profit is doing it yourself from scratch. I don't think that's even possible anymore. If you don't believe me, try it. But I'd bet as soon as you start throwing around supers, you get some unwelcome attention and get blown back to serf-dom.

This does not take into account alts (which big alliances could help provide via outlays of isk for PLEX, something small groups cannot do) and even jump clones.

Big alliances would simply "pre-position" ships and alts/clones where they needed (npc null or low sec nearest the point of itnerest) and become even more entrenched than they are now.

It works like I said: at the moment if you want to hold territory in 0.0, literally everyone on the map is your neighbour. If you nerf radically power projection then you have a situation where eg: mighty Coalition A based in Deklein can't go pick on smaller group B based in Catch without leaving their home infrastructure vulnerable. Sure, they can go do it, but they'll be risking a lot. Also, Smaller Group B is very unlikely to join in on a cross-map attack on Mighty Group A, so there is less incentive to subdue or eradicate them in the first place.

Therefore mighty coalition A will be inclined to look for more important targets who are closer to home so that they can get back and protect their home systems and CSAA yards in time and which are relevent to their interests.

Meanwhile, because smaller group B isn't faced with immediate threat from Mighty Coalition A (unless they go out of their way to provoke them) they aren't under as much pressure to join Mighty Coalition B out of sheer self defence.

Yes, smaller group B might have slightly increased logistics issues, but the trade-off is that they only need to supply themselves sufficiently to fight a war vs smaller group C in Immensea.

In short, a power projection nerf means that it's not as necessary - or even useful - to keep on expanding bloc sizes until there are literally only 2 megablocs left.

So the tl;dr is that a PP nerf would possibly allow smaller groups to exist at all. After all, it could hardly make there be any fewer.

Also they can't possibly be more entrenched than they are now (short of CCP deeming the CFC and N3 new Empire Factions with fiat permanent sov)

Also they can't possibly be more entrenched than they are now (short of CCP deeming the CFC and N3 new Empire Factions with fiat permanent sov)

Of course they can if they know that other entities can not attack them due to needing such a long logistical chain that they do not have the manpower /ships / isk to accomplish it.

Yes actually it does. If you count jump cloning as one form of projection then that means that the Mighty Groups have to keep a "pre-position" fleet cache in literally every system that they want to defend.

Alts... yeah sorry no I'm not buying it. Are you saying that the blocs could straight up maintain multiple extra accounts for all their members? No they couldn't. That's Dinsdale thinking.

Also they can't possibly be more entrenched than they are now (short of CCP deeming the CFC and N3 new Empire Factions with fiat permanent sov)

I really do not see this working simply for the fact that all the major entities have enough alts / Cyno pilots / Titans and Titan pilots to make up for any nerf to jump range.

Hell all that needs to happen is for each member in CFC, NC, PL etc to create one cyno alt (pretty sure that these entities could even give a plex to each member to do this) and place one if not 2 cyno alts in every system.

Then what.. you have basically given the major entities licence to go even more wild because they know they can attack but because power project is nerfed the likelihood of there home being attacked is now even less

Same goes if you increase the fuel costs.

Look I do believe that Power Project is an issue but the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back in again. It is the same problem with Capitals.

If you nerf power project to such an extent that it causes major pain to the hurt the big powers then you have all but destroyed any chance for the smaller entities.

But what it does do is open them up to a two front war, which have, historically speaking been very hard to fight, but in Eve can be fought with relative ease. If they're all off chasing Small Entity A, Small Entity B can nibble off small chunks of space and vice versa until MegaSuperDuper Block A is reduced to a size it can actively defend. That's the point Malcanis is (I think) trying to make.

OP you dont get it.

The massive amount of RMT going on because of rentals is generating a few dozen dudes thousands of dollars in cash.

Alliance heads, CCP, they are all farming dollars out of it on the side. DEVs maybe not directly, but they probably get a cut in envelopes on the side, to keep situation stable, almost certainly.

There is a saying in russian for this: -é-â-+-+ -¦-¦-¦-+-+ -ü-é-Ç-+-ç-î. And they arent going to give up this cash cow. Not the alliance leaders, not others.

Simple as that.

While trying to figure out ways to make power projection nerfs 'stick' I considered the idea of not letting SOV alliances cyno through npc held areas. The same way countries don't allow some other countries to fly over their air space. I know that If I had to go completely around Curse to get to Providence i'd just leave them guys alone lol.

But that doesn't solve the problem while being a nightmare to implement. I think the best course for CCP is more "small group' centric tools + revisting the ability to 'live' in null. There is little reason to fight for nuill space when you can get what you need by having yoru alliance jsut join faction warfare lol (like TEST) did.

That brings me back to something I've said about CCP, you can't develop null in a vaccuum (space jokes aside). As long as i can plex 4 accounts using a single Tengu in NPC null (or faction war space or now regular low sec or high sec incursions/sisters/thukker missions) who cares about SOV null income lol.

I know some people wont agree, but think about it, its only heading in one direction -

This all day long.

I make zero isk from null sec yet I am able to plex 4 accounts and save to buy a super with ease.

Hell I have hardly been online over the past few months due to RL issues yet I am still able to make enough isk to pay for my 4 accounts.

There is so little incentive for anybody top band together and fight to live in null that large areas remain empty apart from the odd few running scanning down sites etc

Malcanis pretty much nailed it in one.

Yes, he put into two paragraphs what would actually need to entail a number of smaller issues to be addressed at the same time to be fully successful.

My point of view is basically we need to:

1: SHARPLY reduce the ability to easily move capitol fleets, either through time, logistics cost/complexity, range reduction, or likely a combination of all of these things.

2: SHARPLY reduce the ability to easily move large fleets of sub caps via the same methods.

3: Change SOV and/or game mechanics to render caps inferior to sub caps when it comes to taking Sov, making hard hitting and fast moving sub caps fleets more of a danger to SOV than Cap fleets.
Further changes to SOV mechanics (specifically timers) to allow timezone participation yes, but remove the ability to use it as a long term delaying tactic.

4: Holding large area's of space should get more profitable the larger those area's are, however they should also become far more difficult to effectively hold... with a distinct emphasis on the later.

5; It should be far easier for a small entity defending a single system than for a large entity to defend countless systems.

The end goal should be for it to be actually very easy to take a system or two (and perhaps easier to hold them) from a large entity. Bigger does not have to mean better.

Even if you lose that system you can easily go take another one until eventually the larger entity tires of retaking space they really don't need (and possibly can no longer afford the time to defend).

Multiple smaller area's of control, and multiple smaller scale engagements, are far far better than what we have now.

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

The massive amount of RMT going on because of rentals is generating a few dozen dudes thousands of dollars in cash.

I find it hilarious how some people think the only way to take down a huge alliance is through firepower. Does no one remember how BoB was finally taken down?

I find it hilarious how some people think the only way to take down a huge alliance is through firepower. Does no one remember how BoB was finally taken down?

I find it hilarious how some people think the only way to take down a huge alliance is through firepower. Does no one remember how BoB was finally taken down?

answer - no.

And where will you be getting your supers from and in such supply that the overlords actually view you as a threat? Wont happen.

Nothing will ever change. If anything, get worse.

I believe this is why ccp has never made new regions available, since they will just be claimed for their moongoo and then rented out. whats the point in that? Not worth new regions imo. Situation sucks as is.

Elite: Dangerous all the way.

On the other hand, small gang warfare is irrelevant to the bigger picture. A coalition doesn't collapse because some ratters got blown up or because they lost roaming gangs to gate camps or logoff traps.

0.0 has greater access, sure, but not many people want to play feudalism in space other than botters, independent supercapital builders and multiboxing ratters.

In the end Renting is a player mechanic

And the only thing that will top renting is if player stop paying

no matter what way the SoV Mechanics are changed, renting will still happen as the 'land lords' will just change the terms to fit within the new system. As the renters are not paying for the space itself, they are paying to not be shot at.

Sounds like your problems centralise around AFK behaviour. When I was in CFC I observed 70+ people online at any time, but to type in chat and get a response? Maybe 2 people actually say Hi back. That's a pretty serious problem. Maybe sov should be more dynamic like FW where you can whittle down control instead of necessitating massive structure grinds all the time. Making towers consume 4x as much fuel too might help in cutting down the extraanneous grinding.

personally i would like to see systems that are not being used automatically drop sov over time.

IE you need to keep mil 1 or industrial 1 within the first 7 days of taking sov or it drops back to default claimable null sec. it will force large alliances to spread out to enable to hold vast areas.

arr yes i remember now but there were plenty more heads of states back then but now were down to 3, are we going the way of the first china server where all of null sec was owned by one alliance? (so the rumours had it)

• maybe lose the standing markings so you don't know who is blue till you chat to them?
lose local maybe?
remove notifications of attacks (previous suggestion)
vastly high costs the more space you own (this could put renting out of reach to be cost effective maybe forcing to control smaller areas.
can only fuel pos's if you own sov? and you need to hold either military or industry 1 for sov to be claimed. + other mech to hold too.

throwing things out there lets see if this thread can be turned into best fixes rather than ask for a fix.

renting suits a lot of player's game styles

not everyone has time to play to constant timers and some players like to just rat / plex exploration sites or do industry stuff.


if the big super blocs want to make easy isk for doing feck all except defend a timer every now and again fair play to them as it makes sense.

renter pays for use of system and gets infrastructure defense from it's landlord.

it is upto the renter to defend his or her assets against roaming gangs but if their pos/sov structures are attacked it means a timer which the super bloc's will fight to defend cos they sometimes get gudfites or super kills from it.

it is a fair deal. safer from invasion but still risky vs roaming gangs. keeps the renter on it's toes

OP should AFK cloaky camp some low true sec ratting system.

Screw that. Just go there and ninja rat without paying rent.

But I think alliances should be restricted to.the amount of sov they own perhaps.

How would this make any difference. What's to stop an alliance from just making more and more 'shell' alliances to hod space like "Rentistan Associates I, Rentistan Associates II" etc etc.

Most if the times when we hear ideas about various aspects of the game, the people with the ideas seem to not take into account lots of 'meta' issue like people owning more than one account/having alts, outside automation and things like that.

I've heard people say "limit the number of blues/make people pay for blue status" but that only works if CCP takes over the whole internet and then prvents people from making web pages and sites accessible via the ingame browser that lists 'blues' lol.

As long as their is any advantage whatsoever to numbers, to 'blobbing', to bringing more guns to a gun fight etc, you will have people who will find a way to side step any kind of potential road blocks a game maker tries to set up.

he didn't say things you arguing with

Grrrr.

According to CCP, "the outer regions are a swirling maelstrom of capsuleer empires rising and falling in titanic struggles for power".

The rental empires are an embarrassment for the game design.

When two rental groups have a disagreement, are they allowed to fight?

They get herded into a deadspace area where they need to fight it out with ships given to them by their overlords and the whole thing is streamed live for the royalty's and the peons' amusement.

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

It's not as if it's untrue

3 of the 4 top alliances by systems held are renter alliances. PBLRD, NA. and B0T combined are nearly equal in membership to the 3 largest PvP alliances.

This is worse than technetium.

Not that i care anymore tbh

Me neither

What were you saying?

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

The damage control alts seems active today

They get herded into a deadspace area where they need to fight it out with ships given to them by their overlords and the whole thing is streamed live for the royalty's and the peons' amusement.

They get herded into a deadspace area where they need to fight it out with ships given to them by their overlords and the whole thing is streamed live for the royalty's and the peons' amusement.

I dont know about you guys, but this really worries me.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

The entire south has become just rental, hundreds and hundreds of systems. Is it just me that sees something fundamentally wrong here?

I dont disagree with renting a few systems out you own, but literally taking over regions purely to rent is another thing. This surely goes against what eve is about? Coalitions just having to do absolute minimum effort to hold these regions, dont even have to live in them! But its only the huge amount of supers and titans that stops anyone else even having a slight chance. Trillions and trillions of isk, and it will only get worse as the more money the more supers and titans etc etc.

Will CCP ever do anything about this? Is it too late to? is eve heading in the wrong direction. Personally i think something needs to change but i think its too late and eve is heading for a disaster.

troll away or not

How can you fight alliances with trillions of isk that grows by tens if not hundreds of billions of isk a week and no short supply of supercarriers and titans without supers and titans of your own?


You don't.

Unless CCP changes the way 0.0 and SOV operates (I don't see how because the whole system of renting is done OOG) then the way 0.0 is, is the way it will always be.

And what is ccp's rush to change things? Most if not all of the employees of CCP are members of said overload alliances. Why would they ruin their income?

Anyone remember a time before technetium, when -A- rented 90% of the south, nothing new here, move along, CCP will make some new way of alliances funding themselves and renting will stop, then CCP will nerf that, and we'll go back to renters.

It's funny, really. A lot of people agree that there's a problem with nullsec, but no-one can agree on what exactly that problem happens to be or how exactly it should be fixed. It's almost as if it's harder to change something when people realise there's a problem than when they're completely ignorant of it.

It's like living in the US. Most of us know that the powers in office are rotten and that the system has become completely corrupt but a majority of us depend on the status quo to make our living. DonGÇÖt wanna break our rice bowls!

So until CCP strongly reduce power projection and rework the sov system, then 0,0 will be:~~

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean....

Really this is the key - you can't impact the meta game with game mechanics. In the end what would need to change this is to change how rapidly alliances can respond to an attack, and how rapidly they NEED to respond to an attack. Now, they only need to respond once every seven days to prevent loss of sov. Even a crippled monkey with one bad eye could manage to move a defense fleet into position in that kind of time.

The only thing that would cripple the rental feudalism we have no is if the renters suddenly had to defend the space they were holding because their landlords couldn't deploy their own forces fast enough. That's where the power projection nerfs come in. if the renters suddenly have to defend the space, they're not going to want to rent it, they're going to want to own it - they may as well, since they now have the headaches of sov defense.

It's funny, really. A lot of people agree that there's a problem with nullsec, but no-one can agree on what exactly that problem happens to be or how exactly it should be fixed. It's almost as if it's harder to change something when people realise there's a problem than when they're completely ignorant of it.

So wait, you want either:
1) All sov structures destructable/capturable without any timers
or
2) Cooldown of x days to jump any jump capable ship?

So:

1) Use income from renter empire to fortify and defend nullsec sphere of interest, including building cap fleets of immeasurable power projection potential.

2) Use increased military might to extend empire by negotiating/strongarming immediate neighbors into NAPs/renter alliances. Increases renter income over time.

3) Make - possibly time limited - NAPs with any power block large enough to be a credible threat to your renter empire.

4) Enforce / demand mandatory fleet participation levels of friendly PvP coalition 'partners', yet don't enforce this except during times of dire need / risk from (the) other major nullsec power block(s).

5) Use renter income to implement SRP among your own core alliance in place of mandatory fleet participation policies, possibly even allowing common line soldiers to directly profit from any PvP losses. Ensures high 'core' fleet participation in case of dire need (IE. any major battle, which actually matters).

6) Use renter income to fund suicide/harassment campaigns of independent PvE players living in HiSec, directly or indirectly (Burn Jita, Miniluv, COREdot...). Serves many purposes: Entertaining your own PvP line members during periods of nullsec peace, making it harder for your own members to 'defect' back to HiSec due to their low sec status 'earned' during HiSec ganking campaigns, *and* to 'entice' the PvE HiSec 'pubbies' to join your legions of PvE renter slaves. Over time more renter slaves means increased renter income.

7) Goto 1. Rinse. Repeat.

If this is accurate, then over time we should see an increased level of HiSec harassment, as the disposable income and logistics resources available to The Lord of the Flies increase in proportion to the number of renter peons. Eventually this could make an independent existence in Empire unsustainable. Consider the current number of gankers active in HiSec at any given time is probably less than a few hundred or so.

I feel like Dinsdale now.

If this is accurate, then over time we should see an increased level of HiSec harassment, as the disposable income and logistics resources available to The Lord of the Flies increase in proportion to the number of renter peons. Eventually this could make an independent existence in Empire unsustainable. Consider the current number of gankers active in HiSec at any given time is probably less than a few hundred or so.
I feel like Dinsdale now.

Dude, you can't be Dinsdale unless you throw in a step about RMT, and say something about nullsec cartels controlling CCP.

I have to say I am loving the amount of blame Goons for this renting culture..

Goons were basically the last to jump on the renting bandwagon

So with this in mind short of CCP magically removing all Carriers / Dreads / Supers / Titans / Isk / BPO's from the game what exactly do you want them to do?

Um. *looks back at own post*
WTF dude, you have "I'll just make this **** up" trained to level 6? Not only are both of those ideas terrible, they're also very extreme, and in no way the only options availble to bring balance to the force. Tripling the size of nullsec would also go a long way to curbing the power projection issue (also, probably not a great idea, but there you have it).

My point is, and it's the same point others have made, this situation is a direct result of the fact that you can jump a capital fleet halfway across the game universe in about 15 minutes, smack the hell out of anyone attacking your home sov, and then jump back to your real war (or gudfites). Defending huge swaths of sov space is trivially easy - it's that trivally part that needs fixing.

Well how would you then fix it? There are really no options than artificially locking the mechanisms which are used for travel in the current form with a cooldown or a limit of some sort. Former already exists via the jump cap requirement, but with a few cap mods it's a moot point.

I have to say I am loving the amount of blame Goons for this renting culture..

Goons were basically the last to jump on the renting bandwagon

Invade fricking High Sec already

I fail to see how ingame entities acting more like real world factions is a bad thing. At least the renters are using the space.

And then rent it back out to the people who use it! Wait...

I fail to see how ingame entities acting more like real world factions is a bad thing. At least the renters are using the space.

It's bad becuse this is a game, and games are supposed to be fun. Landlord Online sounds like a pretty crappy game title, tbh. There's a couple of reasons that the nullsec entities don't use that space they're renting:

A. They don't have to, and
B. It's not worth the effort of using it, anyway.

So they rent it to people who wouldn't be able to get into nullsec any other way, which is fine, except that now the bored PvPers have to fly farther to find people to shoot. Which results in boredom and frustration whenthey fly all the way out there to find no fights. So the bored Pvpers unsub - which damages the game because we have less content creators. So more people unsub. And so on.

Unsub due to boredom is the beginning of the death spiral for all games, not just Eve. But if CCP catches it early enough, they can excise it like a cancer, and we can have another 10 years.