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Finish Fixing The Typhoon!

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M00dy	Posted - 2006.06.16 16:17:00 - [121] 4 out 5 people agree, the old Phoon sucked. But will adding the Dmg bonus to missiles make the Phoon not suck anymore? I say the answer is no. I don't think it'll make much of a difference tbh.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.16 16:53:00 - [122] Should get a free pony when you buy a Typhoon too, get on that Tux. Once the 5% Launcher ROF bonus goes in this ship is already going to do more DPS, be faster, harder to hit, faster locking, than any Raven setup, supposedly WITHOUT damage mods.. so be happy you're getting a Tier 1 battleship that is already uber right out of the box okay.. ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.06.16 20:34:00 - [123] id love to see the numbers to back that up
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.16 20:48:00 - [124] Edited by: Sarmaul on 16/06/2006 20:48:48 Originally by: Aloysius Knight id love to see the numbers to back that up base phoon dps with dual 425mm ac t2 x 4, siege launcer t2 x 4 and ogre IIs: 736 base raven dps with siege launcher t2 x 6 and ogre IIs: 547 Throw in rage torps and it's 855 for the phoon and 725 for the raven. Somehow find a workable setup using Hail ammo and the phoon hits 921 dps. That's without damage mods, but you will need some serious target paining to get the full DPS from it (same can be said the Raven). Fit 3 damage mods on both ships and the phoon still stays ahead in the DPS game until about 20km, where the raven takes over. That is all assuming maxed skills and a 5% missile rof bonus for the phoon. As for it being only Tier1, the Dominix and Armageddon are also tier1, and outdamage their teir2 counterparts. Make Khanid Useful!
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:00:00 - [125] what about with scouts and arbi launchers?
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:03:00 - [126] Originally by: Aloysius Knight what about with scouts and arbi launchers? I don't dare ask naughty boy to add meta items to the DB :). T2 autos take ages to train, but T2 torps just need Torps 5. Make Khanid Useful!
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:08:00 - [127] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Aloysius Knight what about with scouts and arbi launchers? I don't dare ask naughty boy to add meta items to the DB :). T2 autos take ages to train, but T2 torps just need Torps 5. minni dread winks happily what ya think is more skill intense, naglfar or typhoon? Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:10:00 - [128] Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Aloysius Knight what about with scouts and arbi launchers? I don't dare ask naughty boy to add meta items to the DB :). T2 autos take ages to train, but T2 torps just need Torps 5. minni dread winks happily what ya think is more skill intense, naglfar or typhoon? the really depressing thing about that question is that there is no easy answer :/ Make Khanid Useful!
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:10:00 - [129] id go with typhoon
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:12:00 - [130] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 16/06/2006 21:13:13 i already see myself advising new minnie players: Son, stay away from the phoon for now and get a Naglfar first, its less skill intense. Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.

Letifer Deus	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:15:00 - [131] Originally by: Testy Mctest even with their largest guns or modules (not including Tachyons for a Geddon, beign as they have no parallel amoing other races). Domis can fit out rails/blasters and a tank, Scorpions can full rack Siege and Nos, Geddons can full rack Megabeams. Or these ships can mount closer ranged weapons and a tank. In the case of Domi/Scorp, they have the more oft-used setups that primarily dont rely on weapons at all. I'm confused, have you actually TRIED fitting a full rack of neuts or 425s on a domi with a tank and no fitting booster? YOU CANT. You can't even fit a full rack of them. Heck you can't fit a tank with a full rack of 350 2s or ion 2s. Armageddon with a full rack of mega beam 2s w/o a PG booster? Are you on ***? You need an RCUII to do that. Now, as far as fitting close range and having a tank, let's compare: DOMI 6x electron 2s mwd 2 heavy cap booster 877 pg remaining PHOON 4x dual 425 IIs 4x cruise launcher IIs mwd 2 heavy cap booster 2608 pg remaining Yes, the Domi has the big drone bonus, but my point is that people going, "waa, waa, the phoon can't fit jack ** but armas and domis can." BS needs to go. BTW, increasing the bonuses on the phoon to 7.5% is absolutely rediculous. I suggest you disappear forever, and end your assault on the good brain cells of the rest of the Eve community. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Derran	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:17:00 - [132] Edited by: Derran on 16/06/2006 21:22:03 Originally by: Sarmaul base phoon dps with dual 425mm ac t2 x 4, siege launcer t2 x 4 and ogre IIs: 736 base raven dps with siege launcher t2 x 6 and ogre IIs: 547 Throw in rage torps and it's 855 for the phoon and 725 for the raven. Somehow find a workable setup using Hail ammo and the phoon hits 921 dps. That's without damage mods, but you will need some serious target paining to get the full DPS from it (same can be said the Raven). Fit 3 damage mods on both ships and the phoon still stays ahead in the DPS game until about 20km, where the raven takes over. That is all assuming maxed skills and a 5% missile rof bonus for the phoon. As for it being only Tier1, the Dominix and Armageddon are also tier1, and outdamage their teir2 counterparts. I looked at similiar numbers myself and it just feels wrong. Maybe they should tweak the bonuses a bit. Earlier today I was thinking maybe they should give the Typhoon a 7/6/5 layout (still keeping 4/4 for turret/missile) to go with the minmatar shield tanking trip they have been on (Cyclone and the minmatar carriers for the most part). I think we will be seeing alot of armor tanking missile phoons around after the change.
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:23:00 - [133] ohhhh so people use blasters on a dommi? most of the time i see people using nos ecm and a armour tank with ******* uber drones [ 2006.06.16 21:14:49 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Ogre II belonging to Leumas Ebmocnud places an excellent hit on you, inflicting 90.4 damage thats on about 50% therm reist
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:24:00 - [134] By the looks of the minmatar tier3, it's going to be 8/6/6 which will give us a shield tanker. Don't forget that the Typhoon has to use all 8 high slots to kick out that much damage, while the Raven only uses 6 and can fit nos/neuts in. Make Khanid Useful!
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:26:00 - [135] andddd can also fit damg mods in low while still running a shield tank
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:41:00 - [136] Originally by: Aloysius Knight ohhhh so people use blasters on a dommi? most of the time i see people using nos ecm and a armour tank with ******* uber drones [ 2006.06.16 21:14:49 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Ogre II belonging to Leumas Ebmocnud places an excellent hit on you, inflicting 90.4 damage thats on about 50% therm reist And you don't think you can make up the extra 155dps the domis drone bonuses afford it with 3500 extra pg? I'd hope you can. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:46:00 - [137] Originally by: Aloysius Knight typhoon bady neds more grid all ships below were wiht adv wep upgrades 4 typhoon 4 425mm auto 4 arbi cruse lanchers 2 accom large reps 13,200 grid used out of 15625 geddon 7 425mm autos 1 large smart bomb 2 accom res 13,050 grid used out of 20,625 dommie 6 425mm autos 2 accom large reps 10,900 grid used out of 11,250 scorp 4 425mm autos 2 seige 2 accomo reps 10,900 grid used out of 11,250 typhoon has 2,425 grid left geddon has 7,575 grid left dommie has 350 grid left scop has 350 grid left Why on earth are you putting 425 autos on a geddon... If you want to compare correctly, put dual heavy pulses on the geddon and ions on the domi. Still a pointless comparison imo. Geddon isn't strapped for pg unless it's fitting tachs or beams, it's always strapped for cpu tho. - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:46:00 - [138] Originally by: Aloysius Knight ohhhh so people use blasters on a dommi? Some people do, yes (electrons). Of course, not everyone is going to use 425mms + torps, some might use cruise and so on, but when comparing max damage you generally fill as many high slots as possible. Make Khanid Useful!
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:58:00 - [139] Could we please compare Phoons only using 6 weapons and two NOS to Ravens using 6 weapons and two NOS? Otherwise it is a very lopsides comparison, ignoring the rather powerful nosferatus completely. And I am pretty sure many typhoon fits will still include the two NOS anyway. And this would tweak the DPS quite a bit in the Ravens favor I guess (too lazy to do numbers myself). --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.06.16 22:13:00 - [140] here some numbers using SG damage sheet no NOS setup (for almost any ship), just trying to go full damage and do a comparsion. all turrets/launchers and drones are T2, ammo and missiles T1 Phoon: 4x425mm + 4xsiege + heavy drones Tempest: 6x650mm + 2xsiege + medium drones Gedoom: 7xmegapulse + heavy drones Mega: 7xion + heavy drones Domi: 6xelectron + heavy drones no dmg mods Domi: 794 Mega: 741 Geddom: 737 Phoon: 706 Tempest: 593 notes: even with the new 5% bonuse the phoon have inferior damage compared to other close range setups, he have a nice dmg curve due to missiles but same for the geddom tempest have low damage mostly due to the medium drones but whitout drones it outdamage the phoon. 1 dmg mod: (missile for phoon) Domi: 877 Mega: 844 Geddom: 840 Phoon: 759 Tempest: 676 notes: domi begins don't gain much but the difference between the phoon and mega and geddom are higher is over 10% (it was 5% before) 2 dmg mod: (missile/turret for phoon) Domi: 963 Mega: 952 Geddom: 948 Phoon: 800 Tempest: 761 note: don't think that all these ships can fit 2 dmg mods (phoon probably can't) but just for comparsion... the difference between phoon and other ships is over 15%, tempest is "just" at 5% 3 dmg mods (for shield tanked ships) Tempest: 824 Tempest (only 6 turrets): 734 Raven (only 6 siege): 725 i think that these numbers (hoping they are right :P) show that the phoon change don't really make it a "real" close range dps ship it have a nice dmg curve but nothing exeptional compared to a geddon or a raven in particular i think is also interesting to note that a shield tanked tempest with just 6 turrets and 3 dmg mods is very close to a phoon with 1 dmg mod. also i think is quite interesting to see how the damage get worse for the phoon at every dmg mod added to the ship... basically it start at 4th position (out of 5) and it keep that rank losing a 5% damage at every mod added. and just for fun Phoon with 6 dmg mods (ok quite impossible to fit and a suicide to fly :P) Suicidephoon: 971

Kenan Waroria	Posted - 2006.06.16 23:24:00 - [141] Edited by: Kenan Waroria on 16/06/2006 23:25:45 Originally by: Ath Amon here some numbers using SG damage sheet no NOS setup (for almost any ship), just trying to go full damage and do a comparsion. all turrets/launchers and drones are T2, ammo and missiles T1 Phoon: 4x425mm + 4xsiege + heavy drones Tempest: 6x650mm + 2xsiege + medium drones Gedoom: 7xmegapulse + heavy drones Mega: 7xion + heavy drones Domi: 6xelectron + heavy drones no dmg mods Domi: 794 Mega: 741 Geddom: 737 Phoon: 706 Tempest: 593 Why do you compare a Geddon fitting that can¦t fit any tank against all other ships that can? Compare it with DHPL II instead if you are comparing tanked ship. I would say that you can fit bigger guns on all ships exept Arma IF you loose the tank. A funny thing is that Gallente ships with tank still does more DPS than MP Geddon (worse range though). EDIT: what about Raven? -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =-
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 00:02:00 - [142] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/06/2006 00:05:15 Originally by: Sarmaul By the looks of the minmatar tier3, it's going to be 8/6/6 which will give us a shield tanker. Don't forget that the Typhoon has to use all 8 high slots to kick out that much damage, while the Raven only uses 6 and can fit nos/neuts in. uh, ya good luck fitting nos/neuts on a siege launcher raven, you will be fitting medium diminishing nosferatu at best trust me, and even that is a tight fit and requires a CPU II (and a RCU II for injector). fyi a 3 bcu II siege launcher raven does 637.5 DPS, i'll have torp spec 5 in a few days and i think will bump it up to 650dps maybe a little more, so yes the DPS of the phoon is now uber, i am counting the 5% launcher rate of fire implant too as well too so now with the typhoon pushing almost 800 dps without damage mods, please, PLEASE tell me how you can still validly complain about this ship other than the fact it takes good missile, gunnery, and drone skills to fly effectively? ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Moksha	Posted - 2006.06.17 00:31:00 - [143] What kind of ROF on the Siege Launcher IIS and Cruise Launcher IIs can be achieved on the new Phoon?
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 00:39:00 - [144] Originally by: Moksha What kind of ROF on the Siege Launcher IIS and Cruise Launcher IIs can be achieved on the new Phoon? same as raven, 7.36sec and 6.75sec respectively with 3 bcu II ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.06.17 00:53:00 - [145] Originally by: Kenan Waroria Why do you compare a Geddon fitting that can¦t fit any tank against all other ships that can? Compare it with DHPL II instead if you are comparing tanked ship. I would say that you can fit bigger guns on all ships exept Arma IF you loose the tank. A funny thing is that Gallente ships with tank still does more DPS than MP Geddon (worse range though). EDIT: what about Raven? actually saw some templates around with megapulse and decent tank, probably you need quite high fitting skills but anyway... the damage for DHPL is 60 lower whitout dmg, 80 lower with 1 dmg and 100 with 2 i have only partially included the raven for 2 reason.. 1) is not really a close range ship as its damage is the same at 0 and at max target range making it quite a different boat than the ones i compared 2) 99% of the time raven is shield tanked and built for damage with generally 3 dmg mods so i chose to give only this setup for reference
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.06.17 01:18:00 - [146] Originally by: Jim Raynor Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/06/2006 00:05:15 Originally by: Sarmaul By the looks of the minmatar tier3, it's going to be 8/6/6 which will give us a shield tanker. Don't forget that the Typhoon has to use all 8 high slots to kick out that much damage, while the Raven only uses 6 and can fit nos/neuts in. uh, ya good luck fitting nos/neuts on a siege launcher raven, you will be fitting medium diminishing nosferatu at best trust me, and even that is a tight fit and requires a CPU II (and a RCU II for injector). fyi a 3 bcu II siege launcher raven does 637.5 DPS, i'll have torp spec 5 in a few days and i think will bump it up to 650dps maybe a little more, so yes the DPS of the phoon is now uber, i am counting the 5% launcher rate of fire implant too as well too so now with the typhoon pushing almost 800 dps without damage mods, please, PLEASE tell me how you can still validly complain about this ship other than the fact it takes good missile, gunnery, and drone skills to fly effectively? that settles it then. typhoon is fixed. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.06.17 01:25:00 - [147] Originally by: Jim Raynor Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/06/2006 00:05:15 Originally by: Sarmaul By the looks of the minmatar tier3, it's going to be 8/6/6 which will give us a shield tanker. Don't forget that the Typhoon has to use all 8 high slots to kick out that much damage, while the Raven only uses 6 and can fit nos/neuts in. uh, ya good luck fitting nos/neuts on a siege launcher raven, you will be fitting medium diminishing nosferatu at best trust me, and even that is a tight fit and requires a CPU II (and a RCU II for injector). fyi a 3 bcu II siege launcher raven does 637.5 DPS, i'll have torp spec 5 in a few days and i think will bump it up to 650dps maybe a little more, so yes the DPS of the phoon is now uber, i am counting the 5% launcher rate of fire implant too as well too so now with the typhoon pushing almost 800 dps without damage mods, please, PLEASE tell me how you can still validly complain about this ship other than the fact it takes good missile, gunnery, and drone skills to fly effectively? mmm if the phoon get 10 high slots (6 missiles and 4 turrets) probably can reach the uber DPS of 800 whitout damage mods... but actually for what i saw the dps are around 700 drones included... and, if numbers i have posted above are right, you can see that almost all BS have more uber dps than it, expecially when you begin to add dmg mods.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.17 01:42:00 - [148] Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 17/06/2006 01:26:09 Originally by: Jim Raynor Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/06/2006 00:05:15 Originally by: Sarmaul By the looks of the minmatar tier3, it's going to be 8/6/6 which will give us a shield tanker. Don't forget that the Typhoon has to use all 8 high slots to kick out that much damage, while the Raven only uses 6 and can fit nos/neuts in. uh, ya good luck fitting nos/neuts on a siege launcher raven, you will be fitting medium diminishing nosferatu at best trust me, and even that is a tight fit and requires a CPU II (and a RCU II for injector). fyi a 3 bcu II siege launcher raven does 637.5 DPS, i'll have torp spec 5 in a few days and i think will bump it up to 650dps maybe a little more, so yes the DPS of the phoon is now uber, i am counting the 5% launcher rate of fire implant too as well too so now with the typhoon pushing almost 800 dps without damage mods, please, PLEASE tell me how you can still validly complain about this ship other than the fact it takes good missile, gunnery, and drone skills to fly effectively? mmm if the phoon get 10 high slots (6 missiles and 4 turrets) probably can reach the uber DPS of 800 whitout damage mods... but actually for what i saw the dps are around 700 drones included... and, if numbers i have posted above are right, you can see that almost all BS have more uber dps than it, expecially when you begin to add dmg mods. do the math, it can do more dps than a raven for sure now.. giving the typhoon 7.5% launcher rof would more or less make its 4 launchers 6... whats the point of the raven when the typhoon out damages it with just its 4 launchers? ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Crux Australis	Posted - 2006.06.17 01:52:00 - [149] Originally by: Azerrad 7.5% RoF bonus to projectiles 5% RoF bonus to missles I think this makes up for the split weapon system drawbacks without creating an imbalanced nos/torp boat. Mmm... I like this one ! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Frezik Detaurus isn't a person. It's a state of mind.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.06.17 02:22:00 - [150] i've done the math, is some post above.... also i don't agree with the idea that the phoon even with a 7.5% rof to missiles will be a better missile boat than a raven first the raven have also the speed bonus that actually gives more range but more important the raven is designed to fit 3 dmg mods, the phoon is not and using them will end up in a very poor tank (and probably with some CPU problems too). so yes if you compare just the high slots and bonuses it seem that the ship can be overpowered, but if begin to count dmg mods and some possible real fittings the picture is quite different. consider also that the phoon the way it is now is mostly a close range ship and i think is the only one (exept maybe domi) with such restrictions... i think that if a ship is so specialized it should be a bit better than other ones who can perform quite well even in other roles... it will be like to have for example a ship that outpweform the scorpion in EW. i have also to say that the dmg curve is nice, but in the end it doesn't make a real difference... at long range you will still end doing lower damage than mid-long range ships, and at close range the "optimal" distance will be mostly the same as now (hybrid and laser) now with 7.5 to both the damage will be comparable to a mega/geddon but maybe the ship will be a bit too versatile... not more than a domi or a raven but a bit too much for my taste. i think the ship need some more attention, for what i see the change will make it better than now but imo still not comparable to other close range ships. as said in a nother post i think the problems of this ship (and of some other minnie ones) is "structural" with the split weapon philosophy also the fact that it use proj makes the situation even worse as due to its "construction philosophy" it lacks the bonuses necessary to close the DPS gap of such weapons.



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