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Mukutep
Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
6
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Posted - 2011.11.18 19:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
On MY ships the crew is there to lubiricate parts and whatnot, sure, but not like you think. MY ships are more Matrix-esque wherein the crew are batteries. Or perhaps consumables. Their bodies dumped into a chemical furnace that uses the energy as they break down. Or their cells are fused.. whatever.
My ships eat people to make them go.
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Zions Child
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
137
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Morganta wrote:I don't care who says its so, it don't make sense
who the heck would sign up for a suicide mission? and in the billions People who have access to escape pods and who get paid well enough to let their families (and possibly themselves) live a life of luxury from there on. You have to remember that planetary currency is basically worthless compared to isk, so for a very small amount of isk every family on your ship can essentially be gods planetside. There are also a good deal of escape pods which are fairly effective.
My issue with it, is that it basically means there are hundreds of trillions of pirates, and even larger quantities of people in the Empire regions. Seriously, think of how many people a level four mission kills... |

Handsome Hussein
107
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:10:00 -
[63] - Quote
Morganta wrote:do you go to a little room with a pod in the center of it and talk to a speaker in a console? is it like John Carpenter's Dark Star where we open a little hatch and talk to the frozen body of our captain? +1000 internets for the Dark Star reference. Lore should be altered to reflect this awesome vision. Frozen corpses should be encased in blocks of ice and pods should look like futuristic refrigerators. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |

Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
344
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Posted - 2011.11.18 21:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote:Morganta wrote:do you go to a little room with a pod in the center of it and talk to a speaker in a console? is it like John Carpenter's Dark Star where we open a little hatch and talk to the frozen body of our captain? +1000 internets for the Dark Star reference. Lore should be altered to reflect this awesome vision. Frozen corpses should be encased in blocks of ice and pods should look like futuristic refrigerators.
they could incorporate planet bombs with dust the lower your skill the more they talk back to you and explode in the bomb bay
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
336
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Posted - 2011.11.18 21:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
Morganta wrote:Who is the DEV who first floated the idea that our ships are crewed?
it makes no sense every facet of our ship's operations is governed by our skills, not the crew's skills the podster operates all the weapons, support and defensive systems
lets imagine for a moment that you are a lowly yeoman on a calradi BC and you need to so see the captain about something
do you go to a little room with a pod in the center of it and talk to a speaker in a console? is it like John Carpenter's Dark Star where we open a little hatch and talk to the frozen body of our captain?
do you see that this makes no sense? if theres dozens if not hundreds of people running around my ship like its some kind of office building, then why am I sitting in a bucket of goo isolated from, but lording over them like some sort of clone Svengali
really, how was it decided that ships have crews?
That depends on your level of knowlodge about not only the game lore itself, but your overall knowlodge about the operation of heavy duty machinery.
I'm going to go on a limb here and say that you don't have a deep enough knowlodge about the game lore, because your question can be answered by things already included on the chronicles and short stories.
For starters, your ship requires maitenance, like all kinds of machines do. Then you should know that yes pod ships do have crews, but these crews are different from ordinary crews. They are not there to follow YOUR orders, they are there to make sure that the SHIP follows your orders without a hitch. So they do not need to comunicate and work with you.
As an example, you have ammunition. There is no automatic relocation of ammunition from the cargohold to the gun in question. The ship's crew does it. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |

Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
27
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:18:00 -
[66] - Quote
Zions Child wrote:Seriously, think of how many people a level four mission kills...
Hmm 
Alright, I've just done The Assault on Sisi. Let's run the numbers. I destroyed...
Coreli Guardian Initiate x4 Coreli Guardian Agent x3 Coreli Guardian Spy x2 Coreli Guardian Defender x4 Corelior Cannoneer x3 Corelior Infanty x5 Corelior Sentinel x3 Corelum Chief Infantry x1 Corelum Guardian Chief Watchman x3 Corelum Guardian Chief Patroller x1 Corelum Guardian Chief Infantry x2 Corelatis Squad Leader x11 Corelatis Platoon Leader x3 Core Flotilla Admiral x5 Core High Admiral x3 Core Rear Admiral x5 Core Commodore x3 Core Vice Admiral x1 Core Admiral x1 Core Port Admiral x5
That's thirteen frigates (all of them T2), eleven destroyers, seven cruisers (including six Deimos; that's half a bil in hulls right there), fourteen battlecruisers and twenty-three battleships (including twenty admirals, so either I've just eviscerated Serpentis high command or their command structure is very top heavy).
These are all Gallente hulls, so they all have "lower-range" crew complements, and for the sake of simplicity we'll say that the Serp, as rugged veteran space farers and wanting to make the most of a (presumably) highly constrained manpower pool, can and do make these ships run at peak efficiency, using the lowest possible crew sizes.
So, assuming maximum survival rates, we're looking at
Total 5,436, Killed 2,942, Survived 2,494*.
What this says about Serpentis demographics is a bit trickier. Historically, the military has rarely exceeded 1% or 2% of the total population except in times of total war... in fact**, 1% seems to be rather extraordinary- the average seems to be closer to 0.5% (and I suspect most of those aren't field personnel).
So, potentially, these 5,436 represent something between one and five million people- a largeish modern city or small nation. On the other hand, the Serp are pirates- presumably (hopefully) the military pays for itself***- is a major earner, even. That could allow us to bump the proportions up to five, ten, twenty percent. More, perhaps, if we assume they recruit primarily externally and their demographics are heavily skewed towards unattached young adults with no dependants. So it's possible that these ships represent "only" thirty thousand people or so.
Estimating the total number of pirates killed every day... hmm. Well, there are 35,000 players on Tranq right this very second. If we say that each of them goes out and kills just one battleship, that's three and a half million people dead right there, minimum, and somewhere between thirty five and a hundred and forty million people back at base. Deaths per day is going to be several orders of magnitude above that, easily.
Either the pirates have populations measuring in billions (trillions!), or the empires have populations of many, many trillions and the pirates recruit very heavily from their dispossessed underclasses. Maybe quadrillions, though that is a very silly number even for a high epic space opera.
ALRIGHTY THEN.
*Okay, so, I'm using the "absolute bare minimum" crew numbers as if they were "fully fitted and functional" crew numbers. Unfortunately, we don't have "fully fitted and functional" crew numbers; we can make a fair assumption that they're somewhere between "minimum" and "full capacity", but that's a huge range. Factor of twenty, in some cases. I decided to play it safe and go for a solid lower bound.
**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops
***For the piracy to pay for itself, the pirates are going to need to run many successful operations for every one the players blow up, so this doesn't help much. A quick estimate suggests I destroyed something in the region of 3.2 billion isk (...and was paid the princely sum of 24 million... I think I want a raise); how many ships do the Serp need to have out there to make that profitable? (And then- how large does the NPC economy have to be that the pirates can leech this much out of them easily and without crippling them? ) |

Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
40
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
I don't like knowing I am alone in a large ship... I will loose my humanity
If your ship did not have a crew it would rely solely on drones. With the rogue drone viruse being out there. I need a human crew to make sure my ship does not reject me the pod pilot.
I am extrememly vulnerable from an attack with Inside my ship I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |

Handsome Hussein
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 22:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
Morganta wrote:[they could incorporate planet bombs with dust the lower your skill the more they talk back to you and explode in the bomb bay Anybody entering the CQ could randomly be assaulted by beachball aliens. Yeah...
On-topic, I agree completely. I always envisioned the capsuleer operating their ship in the same way as Cowboy from "Hardwired" Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |

Daneirkus Auralex
The Foreign Legion Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:46:00 -
[69] - Quote
Autonomous Monster wrote:Zions Child wrote:Seriously, think of how many people a level four mission kills... Hmm  Alright, I've just done The Assault on Sisi. Let's run the numbers. I destroyed... Coreli Guardian Initiate x4 ... ALRIGHTY THEN. *Okay, so, I'm usin......
Oh god. Between you and the guy lecturing CCP about the actual mass of stars..
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FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
18
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:49:00 -
[70] - Quote
Autonimous Monster, that's freakin epic. nice job!
The "life insurance" you pay for the people on your ship is included in the purchase price of the ship. Like others have said, ISK currency is WAAAAAAAY more valuable than planetary currency. Thus, it takes a fraction of what we think is "a lot" for a person aboard our ships to live in luxury. Assuming of course that they made it to an escape pod in time. There is a lot of "behind the scenes things", like the person you got the ship escrow from is likely the same person that made sure it had a crew.
As to the bridge thing, I envision myself on the deck of the ship in a chair and the rest of my crew is out in my ship doing their duties. My chair is built into the floor and there is the neural socket cord extending from the floor to my head so I can command the ship while at the same time "be on the bridge" and address people in downtime. When my ship explodes, it's usually very apparent it's going to happen so from the floor surrounding the chair my pod will reach up and envelop me and the chair and fill with fluid very fast to withstand the huge explosion that's shortly to come. |
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Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
61
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:51:00 -
[71] - Quote
You wonder why NPC ships are so terrible at combat. They're all crewed by normal crews. |

SilentSkills
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
45
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:58:00 -
[72] - Quote
Jonni Favorite wrote:Actually would be cool if your ship had to load up a crew in order to gain full combat readiness. Automatically of course, with some densely populated systems this would be near instant, while remote locations slower, giving a "lost in space" feeling. Add a chance for expert personnel with slight bonuses.
Obviously this type of immersion wouldn't appeal to some of you 3d Galaga players out there like ms puffy lips
Make this suggestion elsewhere.
I don't mean it in a dismissive way. on the contrary Copy paste this and post all around. Particularly in the ideas and features and let it get some exposure. Your suggestion is one of the few that have quite a bit of merit and sounds cool as hell |

Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 23:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
Daneirkus Auralex wrote:Oh god. Between you and the guy lecturing CCP about the actual mass of stars..
Hey, once you start using logic on this stuff you can't stop. Which is why I usually prefer not to 
SilentSkills wrote:Make this suggestion elsewhere.
I don't mean it in a dismissive way. on the contrary Copy paste this and post all around. Particularly in the ideas and features and let it get some exposure. Your suggestion is one of the few that have quite a bit of merit and sounds cool as hell
It's actually a perennial on the suggestion boards. I think there may be a thread in the first few pages of F&I, in fact...
Here we go
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34523 |

Aldarica
Spinal Discipline
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 23:23:00 -
[74] - Quote
I've always preferred idea that EVE ships don't have any living soul on board except the pod pilot, where everything else are highly automated systems, nanobots, drones and what not, all connected directly to human mind. Ship would be sort of huge mechanical extension of pod pilot's body. For me, this makes much more sense than actual lore.
That, or Clear Skies 'old school' setup with pilot yelling, running around and getting his hands dirty. |

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 23:51:00 -
[75] - Quote
Aldarica wrote:I've always preferred idea that EVE ships don't have any living soul on board except the pod pilot, where everything else are highly automated systems, nanobots, drones and what not, all connected directly to human mind. Ship would be sort of huge mechanical extension of pod pilot's body. For me, this makes much more sense than actual lore.
That, or Clear Skies 'old school' setup with pilot yelling, running around and getting his hands dirty.
If it makes sense to you, then you never actually worked aboard a real ship, or with any sort of industrial machinery whatsoever for extended periods of time. =)
Which is OK, most people haven't.
Things decay, and things break. With every shot fired, with every warp tunnel created.. with every cycle for every module the efficiency drops for a certain percentage for a certain reason. Might be metal fatigue, might be a thousand tiny scratches.
And that sort of damage NEVER happen on a constant basis. A computer cannot predict when a specific L connection on a specific component will break. It can, at best, make an 'educate' guess. And on the subject of making educated guesses no computer can replace a living, breathing person.
What some people here suggest is called Artificial Intelligence which is highly illegal by the game's lore.
The pod pilot replaces only the command strutcture not the maitenance crew. You need real people to run the maitenance and the day to day operations of your kilometer long Machariel. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |

Handsome Hussein
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 23:55:00 -
[76] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Things decay, and things break. With every shot fired, with every warp tunnel created.. with every cycle for every module the efficiency drops for a certain percentage for a certain reason. Might be metal fatigue, might be a thousand tiny scratches.
And that sort of damage NEVER happen on a constant basis. A computer cannot predict when a specific L connection on a specific component will break. It can, at best, make an 'educate' guess. And on the subject of making educated guesses no computer can replace a living, breathing person. I'd like to point out that we have repairers that use nanites to repair armor and structure at a staggering rate. I'm sure a little metal-fatigue is well within the capabilities of the on-board systems to diagnose and repair on a regular basis. There is no need for crew on the magical starships that populate the EVE universe. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |

Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
62
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 00:00:00 -
[77] - Quote
Aldarica wrote:I've always preferred idea that EVE ships don't have any living soul on board except the pod pilot, where everything else are highly automated systems, nanobots, drones and what not, all connected directly to human mind. Ship would be sort of huge mechanical extension of pod pilot's body. For me, this makes much more sense than actual lore.
That, or Clear Skies 'old school' setup with pilot yelling, running around and getting his hands dirty.
The clear skies setup is more akin to how the non pod piloted ships operate. Except that tempest would have many more than three people operating it. The Magellan in clear skies 3 and the cap fight ends up being quite accurate as game lore goes with the pilots running to their fighters, the hanger crews launching them, etc. |

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 00:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Things decay, and things break. With every shot fired, with every warp tunnel created.. with every cycle for every module the efficiency drops for a certain percentage for a certain reason. Might be metal fatigue, might be a thousand tiny scratches.
And that sort of damage NEVER happen on a constant basis. A computer cannot predict when a specific L connection on a specific component will break. It can, at best, make an 'educate' guess. And on the subject of making educated guesses no computer can replace a living, breathing person. I'd like to point out that we have repairers that use nanites to repair armor and structure at a staggering rate. I'm sure a little metal-fatigue is well within the capabilities of the on-board systems to diagnose and repair on a regular basis. There is no need for crew on the magical starships that populate the EVE universe.
Not really. The problem lies in diagnosing like i said before.
That is the reason why normal frigates are crewed, and why pod frigates are not. The ship is small enough for the on-board systems to keep track of everything going on every cubic centimeter of the ship, and take the proper actions when necessary.
Is it possible to do it in kilometer long battleships? Yes. Is it is. Is it cheaper than using a living crew? No, it is not. Is it more cost-effective, then, to use a live crew? Obvioulsy, it is. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |

Handsome Hussein
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 00:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Not really. The problem lies in diagnosing like i said before. Not really. A human crew will be slower and will use the same tools that a computer crew would. A human would probably use some "intuition", but there is no reason why a repair crew couldn't inspect the ship while docked. In space, where capsule ships are used and abused in ways that no sane person (aside from an immortal) could even imagine, automated systems are perfectly fine. Especially considering that a ship can essentially be rebuilt from scratch during combat. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |

London
27
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Posted - 2011.11.19 00:19:00 -
[80] - Quote
Read the chronicals and novels. Ships have crews. EVE: Create a Starship - Naga Frigate |
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Handsome Hussein
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 00:30:00 -
[81] - Quote
No Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
337
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 00:52:00 -
[82] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:Not really. The problem lies in diagnosing like i said before. Not really. A human crew will be slower and will use the same tools that a computer crew would. A human would probably use some "intuition", but there is no reason why a repair crew couldn't inspect the ship while docked. In space, where capsule ships are used and abused in ways that no sane person (aside from an immortal) could even imagine, automated systems are perfectly fine. Especially considering that a ship can essentially be rebuilt from scratch during combat.
No no, many people believe that the "structure" level we see on the HUD is the actual ship structure. That is not the case. What you see is the amount of structural damage that the ship can take before it becomes out of control and doomed.
However there is no point in discussing what should be, only what is. It has been estabilished in EVE's lore that ships require crews to function properly. I, for one, would definatly love to hear more about the whys and hows, but there is no point in denying it.
Like i said, if the technology for making frigate sized pod-ships have no crew is there, then its definatly possible for it to be applied to larger scale ships (The Eidolon, for instance, has no crew. Its a battleship). However since we know that the larger ships are, in fact, crewed, then we will have to asume that it IS cheaper and more efficient to use live crews then it is to use automated systems. Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |

Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 01:13:00 -
[83] - Quote
I like the idea of being able to manage crew in three or four key slots. Maybe gunnery, engineering, navigation and science. All ships come crewed with baseline crew in each slot, but over time they gain experience and get better at their jobs and you get a modest boost to performance in their area. They die with the ship. You can offload them to stations and replace with basic crew when you don't want to risk them or bring them along when you are willing to risk them for the performance boost. |

Handsome Hussein
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 01:47:00 -
[84] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Like i said, if the technology for making frigate sized pod-ships have no crew is there, then its definatly possible for it to be applied to larger scale ships (The Eidolon, for instance, has no crew. Its a battleship). However since we know that the larger ships are, in fact, crewed, then we will have to asume that it IS cheaper and more efficient to use live crews then it is to use automated systems. We could go around in circles for hours on this for sure, so I'll just concede the point. Regardless, the technology in EVE is definitely up to the task of making crewless ships possible. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |

Gazmin VanBurin
Go Petition Blizzard
24
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Posted - 2011.11.19 01:48:00 -
[85] - Quote
Some one made the argument that nanite repair paste could repair your ship just fine, why not have it corsing trough your ship like blood, (definatly not their exact quote but meh) The reason you would not is A: the nanites are short lived and it would get hella expensive over time, and B: 10 isk can pay to make all your human workers happy, while it would take like 1000s of isk for just a tiny amount of nanite repaire paste.
Sure the crews arnt as good, but thats why we carry around emergancy repair paste, and go to a station to het a major repair job done. |

Kietay Ayari
Monopoly Money Operations
47
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Posted - 2011.11.19 02:49:00 -
[86] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
Table comes from a fanfest presentation by CCP, which I'm too lazy to look up. It's on the youtubes.
I have a question... Why does this say it requires multiple capsuleer pilots for ships o_o I can understand if ships need crews but I dont understand that :|
Ferox #1 |

Theodoric Darkwind
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
62
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 03:01:00 -
[87] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:There are no crews on our ships apart from ourselves and it makes sense this way.
Otherwise why can a suicide ganker constantly find new crew. No crewman would go anywhere near a capsuleers ship. They are constantly in danger and lose a lot of ships yet the capsuleer always escapes and even if he dies he wakes up somewhere else.
Whats the going rate of pay for that
answer
nothing as ive never paid a isk to anyone.
I suspect that in the case of suicide gank ships that there would be no crew and the ship is running jury rigged automated systems, given that gank boats tend to lack things like shields and armor.
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Ris Dnalor
Fleet of Doom Ushra'Khan
22
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 03:12:00 -
[88] - Quote
it's my understanding that the NPC versions of the ships have crews.
They were designed to have crews.
They have crew quarters, etc.
HOWSEVERS, pod-pilot technology comes along, and ships are retrofitted so you can be neurally jacked into the ship and control everything yourself. |

Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 03:41:00 -
[89] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:it's my understanding that the NPC versions of the ships have crews.
They were designed to have crews.
They have crew quarters, etc.
HOWEVER, pod-pilot technology comes along, and ships are retrofitted so you can be neurally jacked into the ship and control everything yourself. Every non frigate capsuleer ship has a crew. This is well established in the EVE lore.
It seems that fully automated ships larger than a frigate are either too expensive, unreliable, or illegal (or a combination of these).
However, since frigates are automated, we should be able to use the hacking module to override the pod pilots commands. |

Dyner
Midgard Protectorate
57
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 04:17:00 -
[90] - Quote
*points to all those windows on his ship*
Pretty sure that's and indication that there's a crew....
Honestly, what's wrong with having crew?
Would make the game much more fun to actually have to assemble a crew with talents in things like:
Gunnery Navigation Engineering
If anyone played the old browser game "Space Pirates" you understand what I'm getting at.
If not.
Basically, SP had crew you could hire that would affect your ship above it's base traits. You also had Morale and if it went to low...ya..they mutiny :P
Also, the whole "pod pilot" thing is really stupid. Look at the ships...you can CLEARLY make out sections that would be the "Bridge". Why have a bridge? It says in the Tutorial that our "outside view" is from chase camera drones...
Hopefully, with this WiS, they'll revamp some of the lore surrounding how we control these massive ships.
Ooooh, ya...I so want to be able to launch boarding parties and boot people out of their ships; provided they lose the Boarding Fight 
BTW: The human brain is simply not capable; nor will it EVER be capable (unless its size grows) to control a ship the size of anything larger than a Frigate. And if you use the "Well we have super computers running all that other stuff". Then my response is:
WHY THE HELL ARE WE EVEN IN THE SHIPS
They are obviously, then, capable of running completely on their own with only us issuing orders for the A.I. to process.
The "i'm the only one on the ship" is one of the major cons this game has for me.
-anyways, that's my take on it. |
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