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GodsWork
Realm of God
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
-So i have seen the map... -I have been a long player of eve. I remember days when eve was this active but the number of alliances in 0.0 was larger. -The number of players was lower. the possibility of having personal fun was better... -When politics was necessary. When renting 0.0 was not possible.... -Why could all this happen? because supper coalitions did not exist.
Now that every one knows blobbing and not dying is much better then trying and dying its hard to take it back but can it all go back to how it was? where the bold and not the coward takes charge? Yes it can and i have a plan...
Simple really...
-Corporation can only obtain sovereignty of one system max. -Alliances can have sovereignty of some limited number of systems arbitrary... (Say ten) to limit the size of an alliance and make extra corps useless and jealous of all the corps with sov... -Sovereignty shuts down all industry modules that do not belong to the holding alliance.... (so X alliance cannot own the moons in the systems of Y alliance) -Sovereignty gives a +50% dps bonus to all ally members holding sov vs foreign towers and a -50% effectiveness to all defense foreign towers.
Then the usefulness of 0.0 space to a certain player density will control the rest. Add the factor that there is many leaders now instead of the steady few and 0.0 will be a fun filled place with real contest rather then just:
SOUTH VS. NORTH
Help Make this a reality. Bump it to hell and back.... Join the band wagon NOW NOW NOW
WOOOTTTTTT |

Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
354
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arbitrary rules are bad game mechanics mmkay! Blue-Fire Best Fire |

Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1367
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
the risk averse will always seek someway to mitigate threat possibilities
if CCP limit it, nulsec corps will just switch to 3rd party tools to maintain lists of 'friends' |

GodsWork
Realm of God
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
that's the beauty of this it does not limit your friends it just limits your ability of control. now people will have to trust some one else to do their bidding. more difficulty collecting easy isk from 64/32 moons etc etc.... if that isk driver is limited you remove the supper alliances that can afford a million titans.... |

GodsWork
Realm of God
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aquila Sagitta wrote:Arbitrary rules are bad game mechanics mmkay!
Yes sir blue fire is best kind of fire once alliances are made small from necessity and sov is limited people will be more selective..... and also less likely to effect unneeded space... less renting too. |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2784
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
So, essentially, it should be impossible for a group of more than about a hundred pilots to live in 0.0? |

Iain Cariaba
Veritas Theory
99
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
You seem to fail to understand that coalitions exist outside the game mechanics. All your suggestion would do is increase the number of alt owned alliances in the game. Infinite isk doesn't just mean infinitd ships, it also means infinite plexes. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |

GodsWork
Realm of God
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Not really. i have occupied 0.0. and 100 man corp can make a living in a single system barely. realistically you need at least 50 active members per system. spread through different timezone to be comfortable.
Say a 10 corp ally has 10 systems then ideal alliance will be 500 man. ideal coalition will stretch a region so say 5-6 of these alliances.
There will be a long incubation period until all the alliances break up they initially will start paying rent to larger guys eventually forming their own coalitions and turning on the BIG 2 |

GodsWork
Realm of God
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:You seem to fail to understand that coalitions exist outside the game mechanics. All your suggestion would do is increase the number of alt owned alliances in the game. Infinite isk doesn't just mean infinitd ships, it also means infinite plexes.
You don't seam to understand that the increase on the number of alliances in a coalition will increase internal issues to any coalition. Human nature will break us apart. in todays coalitions one member of the coalition really owns the big moons the rest are just more cannons. in the future coalitions you will either have to collect rent on some one elses moon (people get tired of paying rent to a moon they have sov too eventually) or let them have those precious moons....
Trust me coalitions will trim big time..... I have seen it thats how oldies did it. When they had a good moon but had no industry they would bring a bigger industry ally to do the work... Turns out big industry ally learned how to live on 0.0 and took over the region eventually example from CDC and PURE.... |

Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 15:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:that's the beauty of this it does not limit your friends it just limits your ability of control. now people will have to trust some one else to do their bidding. more difficulty collecting easy isk from 64/32 moons etc etc.... if that isk driver is limited you remove the supper alliances that can afford a million titans.... +1 This is fundamentally true.
Large empires should have a risk of crumbling under the weight of corruption, and corruption is always about having intermediaries to controlling the ISK or taxes income.
The current income and tax control for alliance is "too perfect" in the game right now., which is fundamentally what causes the current issues.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |

Iain Cariaba
Veritas Theory
99
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:You don't seam to understand that the increase on the number of alliances in a coalition will increase internal issues to any coalition. Human nature will break us apart. in todays coalitions one member of the coalition really owns the big moons the rest are just more cannons. in the future coalitions you will either have to collect rent on some one elses moon (people get tired of paying rent to a moon they have sov too eventually) or let them have those precious moons....
Trust me coalitions will trim big time..... I have seen it thats how oldies did it. When they had a good moon but had no industry they would bring a bigger industry ally to do the work... Turns out big industry ally learned how to live on 0.0 and took over the region eventually example from CDC and PURE.... No, the internal pressure will remain the same because the number of actual persons involved will remain the same. Remember that the rank and file of these coalitions don't care about this moon or that moon. All they know is that SRPs are funded, so they go out to fight. The systems with the big moons will still go to the coalition coffers, whether those moons are controlled by one or one hundred alts. Since not every system has one of these big moons, there will still be plenty of space for those not mining a big moon.
Oh, and by your suggestion, no one would be able to pay rent on a moon they don't have sov on, so rental contracts will switch to who is allowed sov in a system. Flesh out your idea more and try to spend a bit more time on where the loopholes will be. If I can find loopholes big enough to fly a carrier through, guaranteed someone more experienced than I will find the others. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Saisin wrote:GodsWork wrote:that's the beauty of this it does not limit your friends it just limits your ability of control. now people will have to trust some one else to do their bidding. more difficulty collecting easy isk from 64/32 moons etc etc.... if that isk driver is limited you remove the supper alliances that can afford a million titans.... +1 This is fundamentally true. Large empires should have a risk of crumbling under the weight of corruption, and corruption is always about having intermediaries to controlling the ISK or taxes income. The current income and tax control for alliance is "too perfect" in the game right now., which is fundamentally what causes the current issues.
Thank you for the up now to convince the rest of eve :) and the guy that is still not confident this will work... |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2784
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:Not really. i have occupied 0.0. and 100 man corp can make a living in a single system barely. realistically you need at least 50 active members per system. spread through different timezone to be comfortable.
Say a 10 corp ally has 10 systems then ideal alliance will be 500 man. ideal coalition will stretch a region so say 5-6 of these alliances.
There will be a long incubation period until all the alliances break up they initially will start paying rent to larger guys eventually forming their own coalitions and turning on the BIG 2
No, they can't. 30 people in a system is overcrowded to hell, you won't find a site to run, a belt to mine or whatever in one system. And that assumes you're talking about a system with reasonable truesec. try to pack a hundred in there and they've got no chance of finding a place to actually make a decent income.
Not that you'll be mining, because if you have one system then you'd have EITHER a decent refinery, or a decent factory. No safe-ish research, and not a lot of offices. Is it your intention that an alliance should have one of the four outposts, and have to rely on it's neighbours for the rest of them? That's not a conflict driver, that's encouragement to blob up.
Also, you don't seem to understand how coalitions work these days, and I say this as a member of what I'm sure you'd label a pet. |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote: No, the internal pressure will remain the same because the number of actual persons involved will remain the same. Remember that the rank and file of these coalitions don't care about this moon or that moon. All they know is that SRPs are funded, so they go out to fight. The systems with the big moons will still go to the coalition coffers, whether those moons are controlled by one or one hundred alts. Since not every system has one of these big moons, there will still be plenty of space for those not mining a big moon.
Oh, and by your suggestion, no one would be able to pay rent on a moon they don't have sov on, so rental contracts will switch to who is allowed sov in a system. Flesh out your idea more and try to spend a bit more time on where the loopholes will be. If I can find loopholes big enough to fly a carrier through, guaranteed someone more experienced than I will find the others.
right now an alt in a corp in that ubber alliance has the said moon. in the future it will be an alt in another alliance in another corp controlling that supper moon.... what happens when that alliance changes leadership from an alt ally leader to a present full ally leader? whats to prevent them from doing that ? you still vote executors no?
This can work... just add some human to it and all the supper coalitions will go to ****. The reason they are good for this system is because they have unlimited sov ability. take that away and every one can go where they want. most of the coalition members dont even hold sov dude. look at the map and their rental agreements they show their own coalition members just go down the list |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2784
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:most of the coalition members dont even hold sov dude. look at the map and their rental agreements they show their own coalition members just go down the list
Okay, so find me one single CFC member who holds no sov. |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:GodsWork wrote:most of the coalition members dont even hold sov dude. look at the map and their rental agreements they show their own coalition members just go down the list Okay, so find me one single CFC member who holds no sov.
is Li3 Federation still with them? dont see them on the list let me look at some others. |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:GodsWork wrote:most of the coalition members dont even hold sov dude. look at the map and their rental agreements they show their own coalition members just go down the list Okay, so find me one single CFC member who holds no sov.
Just look at this map and weep..... http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png
count the big uns using your ten fingers.... what % of space is it just the top 10... There is alliances that have more star systems than your highsec npc governments.... skewed much? |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2784
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:Danika Princip wrote:GodsWork wrote:most of the coalition members dont even hold sov dude. look at the map and their rental agreements they show their own coalition members just go down the list Okay, so find me one single CFC member who holds no sov. Just look at this map and weep..... http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.pngcount the big uns using your ten fingers.... what % of space is it just the top 10... There is alliances that have more star systems than your highsec npc governments.... skewed much?
Which is not what I asked. You are stating that coalition members hold no sov. I am asking you to prove it.
Li3 disbanded, they're part of the bastion now. Same with Gents.
You do not understand how coalitions work, yet you think you can somehow break them up. Apparently by forcing people to work closer together. |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:GodsWork wrote:Danika Princip wrote:GodsWork wrote:most of the coalition members dont even hold sov dude. look at the map and their rental agreements they show their own coalition members just go down the list Okay, so find me one single CFC member who holds no sov. Just look at this map and weep..... http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.pngcount the big uns using your ten fingers.... what % of space is it just the top 10... There is alliances that have more star systems than your highsec npc governments.... skewed much? Which is not what I asked. You are stating that coalition members hold no sov. I am asking you to prove it. Li3 disbanded, they're part of the bastion now. Same with Gents. You do not understand how coalitions work, yet you think you can somehow break them up. Apparently by forcing people to work closer together.
No by forcing them to work further apart. Sov max/min forces more names, more ceo's etc etc etc.... further apart. more levels of responsibility, trust, longer chains of command. thats what this does. You obviously dont see this.... |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2784
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
How does forcing an alliance, which lives in one system, to work with it's neighbours in order to get access to three of the four outposts, logistical routes, ice belts and enough space to actually rat in NOT force them to work closer together?
There would also NOT be any of the other things you seem to think would happen, since the same people would lean multiple holding alliances... |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:How does forcing an alliance, which lives in one system, to work with it's neighbours in order to get access to three of the four outposts, logistical routes, ice belts and enough space to actually rat in NOT force them to work closer together?
There would also NOT be any of the other things you seem to think would happen, since the same people would lean multiple holding alliances...
Yes but now multiple alliances are needed to hold a few constellation instead of one alliance to hold several regions.. Still dont see this??
And yes you are right alts can hold multiple corps... how long will that last? how long ?
Also in the midst of the chaos corps with greed in mind will slip in the bulk of this small alliances and that is where the cracks begin. Short term it will happen as you say. Long term on the other hand it will break up.... |

Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
24
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
How would this stop pl/goons from just creating an alliance called goons/pl holding with 10 alts in it all in different corps to hold 10 systems with good moons. rinse and repeat till all systems with good moons are controlled by the same people.
All this would do is have all the bad space that is currently under someone's sov but unoccupied not be owned by anyone. Then you will see how bad most of null is for stuff.
|

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:How does forcing an alliance, which lives in one system, to work with it's neighbours in order to get access to three of the four outposts, logistical routes, ice belts and enough space to actually rat in NOT force them to work closer together?
There would also NOT be any of the other things you seem to think would happen, since the same people would lean multiple holding alliances...
PS: one more thing... Also consider the sphere of influence. the sphere of influence will start to shrink as the ability of a mega alliance to move through several regions gets impeded. No more are they able to jump bridge to jump bridge until they are on the fighting front. there is a million things that will get complicated by this the end result is to make it so that more people are in charge of less space in 0.0 hence introducing the possibility of aggression towards once friends soon to be enemies... |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2785
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:Danika Princip wrote:How does forcing an alliance, which lives in one system, to work with it's neighbours in order to get access to three of the four outposts, logistical routes, ice belts and enough space to actually rat in NOT force them to work closer together?
There would also NOT be any of the other things you seem to think would happen, since the same people would lean multiple holding alliances... Yes but now multiple alliances are needed to hold a few constellation instead of one alliance to hold several regions.. Still dont see this?? And yes you are right alts can hold multiple corps... how long will that last? how long ? Also in the midst of the chaos corps with greed in mind will slip in the bulk of this small alliances and that is where the cracks begin. Short term it will happen as you say. Long term on the other hand it will break up....
Yes, multiple alliances are needed. but they HAVE to work together. they have no choice in the matter. Either they work together, or they cannot live in nullsec. This does not create conflict.
And having multiple aliances under the control of one person can last until that one person unsubs. The Mittani is CEO of both goonswarm federation and The Bastion. Do you see him disappearing anytime soon?
And then the guys who break line will be excluded and killed by their former allies. They'll be alone and unsupported, with zero safe logistical routes, not enough stations to produce their own stuff, possibly not even any ice to fuel their own towers...
Look up what happened to OWN alliance. |

Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
24
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:Danika Princip wrote:How does forcing an alliance, which lives in one system, to work with it's neighbours in order to get access to three of the four outposts, logistical routes, ice belts and enough space to actually rat in NOT force them to work closer together?
There would also NOT be any of the other things you seem to think would happen, since the same people would lean multiple holding alliances... PS: one more thing... Also consider the sphere of influence. the sphere of influence will start to shrink as the ability of a mega alliance to move through several regions gets impeded. No more are they able to jump bridge to jump bridge until they are on the fighting front. there is a million things that will get complicated by this the end result is to make it so that more people are in charge of less space in 0.0 hence introducing the possibility of aggression towards once friends soon to be enemies...
yup everyone will just have to take there supers or carriers to jump places. no more small stuff allowed |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:How would this stop pl/goons from just creating an alliance called goons/pl holding with 10 alts in it all in different corps to hold 10 systems with good moons. rinse and repeat till all systems with good moons are controlled by the same people.
All this would do is have all the bad space that is currently under someone's sov but unoccupied not be owned by anyone. Then you will see how bad most of null is for stuff.
How long will that last? now its just easier to take down space how often will they find out their sov is being challenged? once every few weeks they refuel? Now multiple alts corps will have to maintain the towers rather then 1 corp... You still don't see this how many towers have you had? how many of them have you had get reinforced? would you agree to logging in on your 3 alts every day? or three alts in multiple accounts? how many accounts will this require?
Again adding to that level of difficulty and increasing the need of support increasing the chain of command.... increasing the number of places that things can go wrong... |

Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
24
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:Lady Rift wrote:How would this stop pl/goons from just creating an alliance called goons/pl holding with 10 alts in it all in different corps to hold 10 systems with good moons. rinse and repeat till all systems with good moons are controlled by the same people.
All this would do is have all the bad space that is currently under someone's sov but unoccupied not be owned by anyone. Then you will see how bad most of null is for stuff.
How long will that last? now its just easier to take down space how often will they find out their sov is being challenged? once every few weeks they refuel? Now alts will have to maintain rather then 1 corp... You still don't see this how many towers have you had? how many of them have you had get reinforced? would you agree to logging in on your 3 alts every day? or three alts in multiple accounts? how many accounts will this require? Again adding to that level of difficulty and increasing the need of support increasing the chain of command....
I log all 12 of my toons everyday. the logistic people of null sec are crazy people and the things they do to get things to work is utterly insane so I have no doubt they will carry on. Also you make it seam like api keys and out of game forums don't exist. Not hard to check an out of game webpage to see if there is any need for a defense fleet. |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Danika Princip here is the basic idea.... you work separate long enough that every one is on their own... all of a sudden that alliance 3 regions over is not worth the pain of jumping through the jump bridges of 5 different alliances and jumping through 5 0.0 gates to get there. Now your supper caps cannot concentrate in one alliance that has cynos on every tower on their entire side of the galaxy and they now cannot easily move from tower to tower. You also forget all the alliances that get forged in lowsec or wh space. They will be more likely to challenge a 500 man alliance even one in a very very very large coalition vs now where blob is constant. Also this spreads the benefits even among the existing coalitions... |

GodsWork
Realm of God
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
@Lady Rift Im sure people do that. however you are one of few people that enjoy maintaining 12 alts... What do you do mine? at the end of the day it makes it that much more difficult. no shared corp hangers, no shared ships, now trade windows have to be used. Info system will require api's and forums to mount a defense. Keep in mind how jump portals work too... Multiple alliances cannot have an unbroken link of jump portals and you cannot use some one else cyno tower right?. that in itself will be a pain. Now instead of renting through one alliance you will need to maintain multiple alliances. Every aspect of the game becomes more difficult for 0.0 large alliances. |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2786
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
GodsWork wrote:Danika Princip here is the basic idea.... you work separate long enough that every one is on their own... all of a sudden that alliance 3 regions over is not worth the pain of jumping through the jump bridges of 5 different alliances and jumping through 5 0.0 gates to get there. Now your supper caps cannot concentrate in one alliance that has cynos on every tower on their entire side of the galaxy and they now cannot easily move from tower to tower. You also forget all the alliances that get forged in lowsec or wh space. They will be more likely to challenge a 500 man alliance even one in a very very very large coalition vs now where blob is constant. Also this spreads the benefits even among the existing coalitions...
But you are not working seperatley. You HAVE to work with your neighbours, you have no choice in the matter. They have to work with thier neighbours too, and so on and so forth. All you end up doing is reinforcing the coalitions.
Also, having to go five bridges and five gates, ten jumps in all, is really not a long way. That's a shopping trip. |
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