I'm not so sure retaining new players is as much of an issue as is retaining old ones.

I hope CCP doesn't 'abandon' (for want of a better word) their traditional customers, particularly those in nullsec, while they gear up to focus on retaining new players.

I'm not so sure retaining new players is as much of an issue as is retaining old ones.

I'm getting a serious bittervet vibe from your posting of late, James.

Mr Epeen

At max level there's no room for lack of skill or effort, you either play well or you'll find yourself in the equivalent of loosing a deck t3 cruiser to t1 frig faster than you can figure out what happened.

CCP needs to find a way to separate new players for whom ISK is a issue from old players who have insane amounts of disposable ISK and power at their beck and call.

This is how Trammel starts, folks.

If there is anything I would love to see is: CCP learn how to make a video trailer like this, not with Blizzard, of course.

On topic, tho, some say that when a player leave EVE to play WoW the QI of both games raise.

I'm not so sure retaining new players is as much of an issue as is retaining old ones.

No this is not trammel, not in the least bit. I guess fools could make a Trammel but I have more hope for CCPs creativity.

Are you sensing that malaise too?

I know I am, the last month has mostly been skill training online and 1/2 the SoE arc on a newbie alt. Time for me to change my playstyle methinks, my current one is getting pretty bland.

I've been considering starting a wardec corp on an alt of mine.

This is another EVE vs WOW and how EVE needs to do better at retaining new players.

.

Didn't WoW lose several hundred subs in the last quarter? People getting bored waiting for the new ride in the themepark.

I just cannot understand trying to compare EVE and WoW because the games are so different and I'm really liking the skill based sandbox more than the level based themepark.

Haven't seen attempts at streamlining the UI since the route list was redone. Haven't seen any attempt at making mining and missions more interesting since I started playing. It it weren't for exploration I would have quit long ago.

I'm guessing the much wanted "industry in nullsec" changes haven't brought the waves of people that were going to live there, and they still can't figure out why.

Only button is ugly and hard to click and cookie is stale and bitter.

I'm getting a serious bittervet vibe from your posting of late, James.

Mr Epeen

Are you sensing that malaise too?

make better ******* cookies then

But flour is old and water is dirty and sugar has ants and milk is sour and there's no spoon to mix it all up!

Old flour can be fixed by adding small amounts of olive oil. As for the ants, just throw some chocolate in there, recently melted to make sure they die from the heat and it coats them nicely, and you have intriguing and unique "chocolate chips".

Can't fix sour milk though.

But flour is old and water is dirty and sugar has ants and milk is sour and there's no spoon to mix it all up!

Unless orange popsicles have some other meaning I don't know about why would it sound icky?

For every newbie I see in nullsec I see two vets grumble about stagnation and boredom and how they're going to play some other game for a few weeks unless something exciting happens.

I'm not so sure retaining new players is as much of an issue as is retaining old ones.

That's the problem right there. People get stuck in a rut and forget they're playing in a sandbox. CCP isn't going to make something exciting happen for you. You have to do it yourself.

I'm guessing the much wanted "industry in nullsec" changes haven't brought the waves of people that were going to live there

The MMO crowd always likes something new, you see it all the time as they chase new MMO after MMO and throw money like crazy at hype and promises (Star Citizen anyone?)

CCP needs to find a way to separate new players for whom ISK is a issue from old players who have insane amounts of disposable ISK and power at their beck and call.

portraid

By the looks of things, it very definitely has.

Would you mind elaborating on this? I'd like to see the stats, but I have no idea what to even look for.

I still think we should have taken over Providence & free-ported the region. Pubs will flock to Providence as time goes on & we deserve a slice of the tax pie that CVA is too nice to exploit.

will ensure the player is no bombarded with a wall of text

Would you mind elaborating on this? I'd like to see the stats, but I have no idea what to even look for.

I sure don't.

From the company that brought you Barbies in Space, the uneditable POS code, and "you can impersonate yourself", I do not expect them to find a way to segregate the playerbase without severely compromising the game's design philosophy.

Don't get me wrong, CCP does a lot of things right, they are excellent at iterative improvements for example. But broad sweeping changes is not one of their strengths, historically.

Pubs will flock to Providence as time goes on

I really like how you put yourself above others just because you have illusions about your gameplay being superior to theirs.

When I was a newbie I got really annoyed by vets telling me how I was supposed to do things. I also had superiority complex due to a fact that my ships were shooting with guns instead of mining lazorz but after a while I realized something shocking: people shooting rocks are paying same subs as I do and they should be allowed to use their play time however they want.

Maybe if "vets" would stop being condescending pricks for a moment newbies wouldn't mind stepping outside of "pimp my golem" route.

I really like how you put yourself above others just because you have illusions about your gameplay being superior to theirs.

When I was a newbie I got really annoyed by vets telling me how I was supposed to do things. I also had superiority complex due to a fact that my ships were shooting with guns instead of mining lazorz but after a while I realized something shocking: people shooting rocks are paying same subs as I do and they should be allowed to use their play time however they want.

Maybe if "vets" would stop being condescending pricks for a moment newbies wouldn't mind stepping outside of "pimp my golem" route.

It's less stats-based and more based on the silly large amounts of Gǣooh, I can now do industry at homeGǥ and even Gǣooh, I'm now going to try industryGǪ hey guys, how does it work?Gǥ posts from nullseccers. With slots gone, the only stat you'd be able to reliably pull are the system indices and see which way they're trending over time.

Also, I'm suspecting that Sentamon is grossly misrepresenting or misinterpreting the point of the industry changes. They were never really about making waves of new people do industry in null, but about making waves of nullseccers do industry in null. So my rebuttal doesn't entirely match up with Sentamon's thinly veiled whine GÇö I'm looking for the effects in relation to the actual intent, whereas he's suggesting that they've failed to reach a goal they never set up to begin with.

I still think we should have taken over Providence & free-ported the region. Pubs will flock to Providence as time goes on & we deserve a slice of the tax pie that CVA is too nice to exploit.

If they're flying a Golem, they're not a newbie.

I suppose I'll let the cat out of the bag on this one.

"Pubbie" is a troll. You're only a pubbie if you get mad at being called one.

Much like the old "If you don't know what a Philistine is, you are one" joke.

Oh no you dont. I want this game reserve to last, I still miss the IRC kitchen fleets.

Oh, I didn't know that. So I guess [PBLRD] ticker is just because all others were already taken :)

I'm guessing the much wanted "industry in nullsec" changes haven't brought the waves of people that were going to live there, and they still can't figure out why.

According to CCP Rise half of newbies that stay are well on that route so go figure. Entitlement and feeling of superiority because of pixels you are flying is very common and I'm not talking about "you shouldn't fit hybrids on your rifter" kind of things, I'm talking about "I ground sov structures for days so I'm better PERSON than you are". And don't tell me it isn't the case. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this as well though.

That was my sense of it as well, but I was wondering if you had anything more solid.
I suppose only CCP can really tell for sure.

In addition, I would probably address the issue of scams just a little bit. People come into this game not knowing that this is even possible. Many leave after being scammed. Don't ban scamming (that'd be stupid), but find a better way of informing the "Newbie public" that this is possible.

Eve cant retain new players when they dont even get a chance to grow with out being blown smithereens because their mining or their trying to do trading and being a carebear to build wealth and skills to be worth something.

I don't know what the hell you just expatiated, but it has nothing to do with the fact that anyone that's taken the time to skill for a Golem is NOT a newbie. Anyone that has gotten into a Golem without learning how to fly and fit it effectively is creating their own problems.

CCP needs to find a way to separate new players for whom ISK is a issue from old players who have insane amounts of disposable ISK and power at their beck and call.

Except WoW has no appreciable death penalty.

I also believe they are going to struggle to retain existing members soon.

I still think we should have taken over Providence & free-ported the region. Pubs will flock to Providence as time goes on & we deserve a slice of the tax pie that CVA is too nice to exploit.

Eve can retain players by destroying NPC corps. I dropped corp to do some hauling during wartime and there are so many whiny bitches in there advising and encouraging people to not join corps. If thats some of the first things newbies see and maybe join 1 bad corp then they'll just stay there being bored.

I dropped a character out of corp to an npc corp (Imperial Shipment) because I was considering selling it (i didn't). I was SHOCKED to read corp chat lol, it seem to me that membership in an NPC corp should come with a few prescription for anti-depressant meds lol, because I've never seen such naysaying before.

Dropped another toon out of corp to move it to an indy corp belonging to a buddy of mine and caught an hour long glimpse of Brutor Tribe corp chat, same deal, it was horrible.

WoW had such a huge add campaign with celebs and well known characters and it worked, i bet the ads more than paid for themselves.

I'm noob, < 2 mil SP.

This game takes work to understand how everything works, like hours of reading third party websites and can feel like a job when your supposed to be playing a game that's supposed to distract you from IRL for a few hours. I personally like that the game is deep like that, but I feel most prospective new players won't.

Add in that so many ppl are out to cheat you/ scam you and it makes the community seem off putting. The whole community seems hostile at times as well, like i'm playing LoL.

Another thing that has turned my friends off from playing is that it takes so long to accomplish what you want to do because of the whole SP thing. For instance in WoW, I can lvl from 1 - 90 in a a week, chug some mountain dew and grind. In a few weeks and w/ some moderate luck I'd be geared enough to do entry level raids. In eve there isn't really a way around the SP mountain, at least I haven't found one. For example: when I started playing I thought "wow covert ops looks fun I want to try that," so I set up a skill plan and then noticed the time: I wouldn't even be able to enter the ship for another month, and add on another few weeks to fly it at a decent level. I'm about halfway there now, but sometimes when I get home from work, I don't really have a desire to log in, not because I'm bored but rather because right now at my skill levels and wallet amount, I gain just as much from NOT logging on as I do from logging in. I'm not saying the SP system is bad, its just off putting to new players. Only noobs with tons of patience or noobs who keep there subs active only to train skills will be sticking around, and I personally feel that's not a high percentage.


Sorry for rambling, just my 2c

CCP should have done a TV ad with Samuel L. Jackson. Something to do with snakes on a Crane maybe.

CCP should have done a TV ad with Samuel L. Jackson. Something to do with snakes on a Crane maybe.

I'm noob, < 2 mil SP.

This game takes work to understand how everything works, like hours of reading third party websites and can feel like a job when your supposed to be playing a game that's supposed to distract you from IRL for a few hours. I personally like that the game is deep like that, but I feel most prospective new players won't.

this is the problem with many gamers: They are trying to escape something.

Well, people who have trouble dealing with real life are going to suck at EVE (a thinking gamer's game) as well. Most of the people I play EVE with are professionals in their fields who actually like their lives and see EVE as an enhancement of their lives/time.

So right there we see a major reason why EVE just isn't ever going to be real popular, it forces thinking rather than giving a player some rote/automatic reflex based thing to do. Lots of games are distractions and outlets for pent up rage (which is why I think 1st person shooter games are so popular).

EVE is more like a hobby, like this activity is (it's fun as hell, but it's just like EVE, pour man-hour after man-hour into something that has a combat life span measured in seconds lol).

Just because something is a 'game', that doesn't mean it's like other games.

I'm noob, < 2 mil SP.

This game takes work to understand how everything works, like hours of reading third party websites and can feel like a job when your supposed to be playing a game that's supposed to distract you from IRL for a few hours. I personally like that the game is deep like that, but I feel most prospective new players won't.

Add in that so many ppl are out to cheat you/ scam you and it makes the community seem off putting. The whole community seems hostile at times as well, like i'm playing LoL.

Another thing that has turned my friends off from playing is that it takes so long to accomplish what you want to do because of the whole SP thing. For instance in WoW, I can lvl from 1 - 90 in a a week, chug some mountain dew and grind. In a few weeks and w/ some moderate luck I'd be geared enough to do entry level raids. In eve there isn't really a way around the SP mountain, at least I haven't found one. For example: when I started playing I thought "wow covert ops looks fun I want to try that," so I set up a skill plan and then noticed the time: I wouldn't even be able to enter the ship for another month, and add on another few weeks to fly it at a decent level. I'm about halfway there now, but sometimes when I get home from work, I don't really have a desire to log in, not because I'm bored but rather because right now at my skill levels and wallet amount, I gain just as much from NOT logging on as I do from logging in. I'm not saying the SP system is bad, its just off putting to new players. Only noobs with tons of patience or noobs who keep there subs active only to train skills will be sticking around, and I personally feel that's not a high percentage.


Sorry for rambling, just my 2c

Another thing that has turned my friends off from playing is that it takes so long to accomplish what you want to do because of the whole SP thing. For instance in WoW, I can lvl from 1 - 90 in a a week, chug some mountain dew and grind. In a few weeks and w/ some moderate luck I'd be geared enough to do entry level raids. In eve there isn't really a way around the SP mountain, at least I haven't found one.

I'm bored but rather because right now at my skill levels and wallet amount, I gain just as much from NOT logging on as I do from logging in.

To be fair, I have always seen Eve more as a hobby than a game.

Edit: Also HOLY HELL! I just watched your video. DO WANT!

Got A Weak Willie
Passive sp is one of the finer points that makes eve Much better than most games out there,
the glorious positive of this is that i prevents Smelly basement dwelling teens from power-grinding sp for 48 hour stretches.
this is good because adults (which is most of us) tend to have Jobs and Kids and other obligations .
be patient with the skill cue and learn how to eve before you complain about how it is.

I wasn't complaining, I don't mind the system at all. I was saying most new players won't have the patience, which explains the woes of new player retention.

I began my post by saying that most people that compare both games do so without looking at the big picture. The responses I got strengthen that position.

My points is not to say WOW is better than EVE, or that EVE needs to copy everything WOW has.

The point is that WOW retention is high and EVE's isn't. Why is that?

In my opinion:
1) EVE is portrayed as X on you tube when someone logs is you realize X is no where to be found.
2) Information on how to improve is unavailable in game and one needs to look for it outside game.
3) UI is ugly and there's very little customization options.

None of these suggestions are detrimental to veterans.

What is the top 3 things, in your opinion, that need improvement to retain players in general?

Is it the same in other MMOs? This notion of players having absurd illusions of being responsible for somebody's business, I mean.

I think this is one of those "psycho" aspects of our community: we propose ideas of new features, we propose solutions to existing problems, we propose solutions to possible problems that out ideas could cause, we spend hours writing feedback to devs, we spend hours testing new features and fixes, we discuss financial problems of CCP, we discuss their HR tactics and recruitment and who leaves and who stays, we discuss why new players leave, we discuss why vets leave, we discuss how to prevent those both groups from clashing in some kind of class war but at the same time how to cater to both of them and nurture them and let them grow and...

Is it the same in other MMOs?

Only button is ugly and hard to click and cookie is stale and bitter.

I personally enjoy the stability that EVE offers because of the amount of player created content, and administration "outside the box", and personal problem solving skills one has to learn, versus a candyland type MMO, WOW offers.

Ironically , this is what most people hate about EVE.

I began my post by saying that most people that compare both games do so without looking at the big picture. The responses I got strengthen that position.

My points is not to say WOW is better than EVE, or that EVE needs to copy everything WOW has.

The point is that WOW retention is high and EVE's isn't. Why is that?

In my opinion:
1) EVE is portrayed as X on you tube when someone logs is you realize X is no where to be found.
2) Information on how to improve is unavailable in game and one needs to look for it outside game.
3) UI is ugly and there's very little customization options.

None of these suggestions are detrimental to veterans.

What is the top 3 things, in your opinion, that need improvement to retain players in general?

Tried that a while ago, was super boring. People just either disband their corp, logged off or just sat in station all day.

Wouldn't mind but at most there were only 5 of us and we were targeting corps/alliances of 50+ hoping to get a few fights.

This is another EVE vs WOW.

You guys give way too much credit to the NPE shaping people.

You guys give way too much credit to the NPE shaping people.

I often sit and ponder the thought of how to make this a more user friendly, popular MMO. I came to quite a few conclusions.

1: Sci fi is not for everyone.
2: ItGÇÖs near impossible to please everyone.
3: Looking at numbers FPSGÇÖs are number one however, how smart are they?
4: EVE ONLINE is a dark place with dark forces that taint the heart so quickly.
5: This game is not easy therefore, if it is not mind numbingly Farmville esc some will not play.
6: Nothing is quick in EVE. Everything is earned (yes even if you stole it)
7: The game needs depth: GÇ£You make the history RAIN!GÇ¥ I understand that however, this game needs to addendum the lack of plot.
8: EVE is directly focused on the grinding violent and omnipotent groups.
9: CinematicGÇÖs- GÇ£SOMEGÇ¥ mmo players love to watch cinematics. This game needs cinematics to draw you in and make the depth deeper. PVE instances of course. Reading a dialog is quite slog.
10: Emersion: This is needed as much as depth.

So ingredients

2 parts depth
2 parts emersion
1 part FPS- DUST 514 or whatever
3 parts Cinematics

Now before we go on a tangent, realize what it is that keeps WOW players going. Yes a lot of things are given to them however, as a FORMER wow player, I can tell you that I love a fantastic plot line.

A huge PVE overhaul, it be that simple

A huge PVE overhaul, it be that simple

PVE is where EVE is lacking with respect to almost every big MMO out there. People rail on WoW for having a ton of Fedex quests, and it certainly does, but they're intermixed with varied and enticing group content (raids, dungeons, etc.). In EVE you can run the same missions over and over and over and over or maybe get into an Incursion group which basically breaks down PVE to a routine.

EVE needs to provide mission chains and some real story content. We also need a real incentive to run missions as a group - providing missions geared towards groups, with higher rewards, would be a good start.

PVE is where EVE is lacking with respect to almost every big MMO out there. People rail on WoW for having a ton of Fedex quests, and it certainly does, but they're intermixed with varied and enticing group content (raids, dungeons, etc.). In EVE you can run the same missions over and over and over and over or maybe get into an Incursion group which basically breaks down PVE to a routine.

EVE needs to provide mission chains and some real story content. We also need a real incentive to run missions as a group - providing missions geared towards groups, with higher rewards, would be a good start.

PVE is where EVE is lacking with respect to almost every big MMO out there. People rail on WoW for having a ton of Fedex quests, and it certainly does, but they're intermixed with varied and enticing group content (raids, dungeons, etc.). In EVE you can run the same missions over and over and over and over or maybe get into an Incursion group which basically breaks down PVE to a routine.

EVE needs to provide mission chains and some real story content. We also need a real incentive to run missions as a group - providing missions geared towards groups, with higher rewards, would be a good start.

EVE has all of that already. In fact, it used to have even more of it, but parts were removed (the mission mixing in particular) because mission-runners didn't want it.

Again, the problem is that crafting these things take an inordinate amount of time for very little gain. WoW pulls it of because it is all WoW does, and it is all that all those devs spend time on. EVE cannot afford that kind of developer dedication to a small subset of the game. And even if there was a room of infinite monkeys to churn out missions, they'd still be dissected and mapped out to the millisecond 15 minutes after release and become trivial.

The best thing you could hope for is some kind of template-based GÇ£dynamicGÇ¥ missions that will take all of 30 minutes to map outGǪ but it will all be routine in the end. All PvE is GÇö it's inherent in the concept and inherent in how people play missions.

As for GÇ£real story contentGÇ¥, that's what the epic and COSMOS missions (and the occasional live event) are for. There is no GÇ£real storyGÇ¥ to EVE GÇö you're not saving the world in your own private copy of the universe. The story of EVE is what the players do to the universe, and it's what you take part in every time you log in.

EVE has all of that already. In fact, it used to have even more of it, but parts were removed (the mission mixing in particular) because mission-runners didn't want it.

Again, the problem is that crafting these things take an inordinate amount of time for very little gain. WoW pulls it of because it is all WoW does, and it is all that all those devs spend time on. EVE cannot afford that kind of developer dedication to a small subset of the game. And even if there was a room of infinite monkeys to churn out missions, they'd still be dissected and mapped out to the millisecond 15 minutes after release and become trivial.

The best thing you could hope for is some kind of template-based GÇ£dynamicGÇ¥ missions that will take all of 30 minutes to map outGǪ but it will all be routine in the end. All PvE is GÇö it's inherent in the concept and inherent in how people play missions.

As for GÇ£real story contentGÇ¥, that's what the epic and COSMOS missions (and the occasional live event) are for. There is no GÇ£real storyGÇ¥ to EVE GÇö you're not saving the world in your own private copy of the universe. The story of EVE is what the players do to the universe, and it's what you take part in every time you log in.

Your wrong.

I did gallente fed missions. I read what they wanted and why. I remember quite a few of the story lines. They were, and still are dry.

I think they woud make monumental gains if they added cinematics or a driven story line.

And the percentage you talk about is wrong too

Your wrong. I did gallente fed missions. I read what they wanted and why. I remember quite a few of the story lines. They were, and still are dry. Yes some people just want to grind. And the percentage you talk about is wrong too. I think they woud make monumental gains if they added cinematics or a driven story line. Yes we write our path. If you don't like the cinematics turn them off "click". I'm not saying make eve wow- just good god do something. Even if people just grind sites for isk who cares, it's still there if you want it.

Animated mission screen in epic arc that takes you the width an breadth of your faction space with voice comms from faction personnel when your out in space, doing trade runs/mining/industry/ an dogfights with faction npc via pirates or invading forces all included in the epic faction arc culminating in a all out fleet battle with the factions pirate rats.

Sounds epic but as u said tippia, to much work they would rather stick to the same thing they been doing for last 10 years

Eve can retain players by destroying NPC corps. I dropped corp to do some hauling during wartime and there are so many whiny bitches in there advising and encouraging people to not join corps. If thats some of the first things newbies see and maybe join 1 bad corp then they'll just stay there being bored.

[quote=RAIN Arthie]Your wrong.

Animated mission screen in epic arc that takes you the width an breadth of your faction space with voice comms from faction personnel when your out in space, doing trade runs/mining/industry/ an dogfights with faction npc via pirates or invading forces all included in the epic faction arc culminating in a all out fleet battle with the factions pirate rats.

Sounds epic but as u said tippia, to much work they would rather stick to the same thing they been doing for last 10 years, heck you could make that the NPE an have the end battle against other new players from the other factions with some npc thrown in, have it stretch oout for weeks instead of a couple of hours, have the mission givers tell you "pilot you need to get stronger we recommend you train blah blah for this next push"

CCP needs a imagination as much as us players an they seem to have none left either

In what way?

Your not CCP and cannot make that assesment


5 missions templates-- are lame

monumental gains- lore is part of story. it's lacking fu*king lore to make something worth persuing. No driving force to keep playing.


It seems you don't want to see changes because your comfortable with the same dry sh*t

CCP doesn't need imaginations, players in a player driven game need imagination. The reason all this PVE stuff is a bad idea (other than being a bad investment of time as Tippia points out) is that EVE isn't a PVE game, it's not a "sit down and enjoy the show" type game like most games are. At the end of the day, Themeparks games are a movie that you can pretend you are in and having an impact in.

EVE is a "MAKE A STORY FOR YOURSELF" game, all of the 'content' in EVE isn't really content, it's backdrops and props and lighting, a stage for you to put on a show for yourself and your friends. PVE is a mechanisim with which to gather the resources needed to fund the show (i realize this every time someone comes into my mission trying to get me to aggress, my not doing so is controlling my 'story' while thwarting his).

At the end of the day, people complaining about EVE's pve (and lack of new player retention) are really just lamenting the fact that EVE isn't the 'right' kind of game for their tastes. EVE's PVE is fine, especially if you like to tackle it in creative ways (like the lvl 3 missions I'm doing right now with a Machariel while raking in storyline loot super fast, props to Stoicfaux for being a real sandbox pve king).

EVE needs to provide mission chains and some real story content. We also need a real incentive to run missions as a group - providing missions geared towards groups, with higher rewards, would be a good start.

PVE requires too much more people focusing on content created, rather than player created content. Might as well be playing Freelancer.

That is very small thinking. Why not offer all the features? In game story while you write your story. Adding story to the game DOES NOT take away from pvp.

Your not CCP and cannot make that assesment

5 missions templates-- are lame
monumental gains- lore is part of story. it's lacking fu*king lore to make something worth persuing. No driving force to keep playing.

It seems you don't want to see changes because your comfortable with the same dry sh*t

Why not offer all the features?

They all got there places just like Eve, the question was just how to retain new players, for me the answer is what have they not done, and for me that is pve

it could be the simplest thing of like freelancer, following a npc through a epic arc with cinematic mission screen but most importantly voice comms with the npc so it feels alive, an in that epic arc crossing bridges with other faction newbies doing there NPE and dogfighting it out between the newbs an the npc.

I think peopol in this tred have lost the mine objectivs of this tred,for new players thers no lack of content,thers other issus with this game to solv for that,as stated in erlyer post in this tred.

What is never asked during these "eve needs new players" threads is if the players being retained are the right kind of player.

Lots of people who try EVE and don't like it are people who NEED the kinds of things mainstream/non-EVE like games offer (like hand holding, a clear cut 'story' to be a part of, protection from the predations of other players etc etc etc).

If you have to gerrymander a niche game so much to get new players to stay, why did they make a niche game to begin with?

CCp shouldn't worry about retaining new players (those new players are making a smart choice), if anything at all it should change it's outreach efforts away from traditional (instant gratification needing) gamers and Traditional (themepark loving) MMO players and do some 'outside the box' marketing to groups of people who would like a game like this. Because at the end of the day it's not the game, it's the gamers that need re-thinking.

One of Eve's biggest problems in retaining new players is its actual age.

I know there are hard limitations in skills and whatnot. But to a new player, ten plus years is a cliff they "know" they will never defeat. So they go off to easier pastures, something newer.

But wasnt it CCP who said themselves they need to work out how to keep new players?

they dont need to keep me im already here an staying lol, i like what i can do an do it all time, the question of the OP was just how to keep them, all im doing is putting out a suggestion, crap as it might be since you n tippia are tearing it apart :P

My thinking is simply what have they not tried

I mind reading a article from nintendo boss, if i find the link i post it, basically what he said was they did a study an sat gamers of today in front of a computer with the original super mario bro's, 95% of them found it to hard and when asked for suggestions on how to make it better they said things like give me a start gun etc etc

Pretty depressing reading

EDIT found it Click Me

Okay....holy ****. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad.

So, modern gamers, how does it feel to know that 90% of you can't even beat the first level of a game that I beat when I was six years old?

We watched the replay videos of how the gamers performed and saw that many did not understand simple concepts like bottomless pits. Around 70 percent died to the first Goomba. Another 50 percent died twice. Many thought the coins were enemies and tried to avoid them. Also, most of them did not use the run button. There were many other depressing things we noted but I can not remember them at the moment.

Furthermore, we asked for suggestions on how to improve the game. A majority of them wanted the game to be easier and they suggested many ways to do this. Some of them wanted a mandatory tutorial while others wanted more ways to kill things besides jumping on them. We explained that Mario could shoot fire balls with the Fire Flower power-up, but then they wanted Mario to start with more weapons like a sword or a gun.

Some of the people seemed to be unaware that this was an actual old game that existed as they asked if the retro-style graphics were supposed to be a throwback to old Nintendo games. Some missed the point of the questionnaire completely and said that the graphics and music were terrible and needed to be improved in order for the game to sell. They also wanted a deeper storyline and voice acting.

Dude...Dude...DUDE

I'm laughing so hard I can't see straight right now. I read this part and damn near fainted.



and OMG relevant to this discussion:

Never actually thought of it that way tbh m8, you hear all time about ppl "devouring" content an then leaving touting the developers fault for them going through content so fast they got nothing to do, guess i was thinking of it more along the lines of "what would i like" instead of what would actually be best.

i like these chats make you think while exploring :P

One of Eve's biggest problems in retaining new players is its actual age.

I know there are hard limitations in skills and whatnot. But to a new player, ten plus years is a cliff they "know" they will never defeat. So they go off to easier pastures, something newer.

I mind reading a article from nintendo boss, if i find the link i post it, basically what he said was they did a study an sat gamers of today in front of a computer with the original super mario bro's, 95% of them found it to hard and when asked for suggestions on how to make it better they said things like give me a start gun etc etc

Pretty depressing reading

EDIT found it Click Me

Yes, god forbid devs would waste their precious time to put at least a little fresh air into missions. That precious time they spend providing us with...

It would be just simpler to get rid of all PVE once and for all and just let us earn by killing each other and trade whatever dropped. No more grind, no more multiboxing ice crunchers or incursion farmers or button spinning farmers or null anoms farmers. Why can't we just have pure PVP environment that Eve so boldly advertises at every occasion? You have what you can mine or steal or get out of a wreck. No more bullsh!t, no more "I just wanna run mishuns in peace, why are you in my mishun?".

What say you all?

Ah man, reality crushed my dreams lol. The story you linked isn't true.

Still funny though.

One of Eve's biggest problems in retaining new players is its actual age.

I know there are hard limitations in skills and whatnot. But to a new player, ten plus years is a cliff they "know" they will never defeat. So they go off to easier pastures, something newer.

Well that sucks, ive believed that for nigh half a bloody year, im really turning out to be one stupid bstrd aint i rofl

Ah man, reality crushed my dreams lol. The story you linked isn't true.

Still funny though.

On a side note, NPE, say it stays in its current format aka exploration/industry/military etc, why not at the end of each branch completion award some skill points, worth of say a total of 5 million sp at the completion of doing all tutorials? but you can only spend them in certain areas?

Nope, pve is ok as it is.

And if you can look at this incredible award winning history making 11 year old game and not see what the DEVs have been doing, you must be blind.

That is very small thinking. Why not offer all the features? In game story while you write your story. Adding story to the game DOES NOT take away from pvp.

Is it the same in other MMOs? This notion of players having absurd illusions of being responsible for somebody's business, I mean.

I think this is one of those "psycho" aspects of our community: we propose ideas of new features, we propose solutions to existing problems, we propose solutions to possible problems that out ideas could cause, we spend hours writing feedback to devs, we spend hours testing new features and fixes, we discuss financial problems of CCP, we discuss their HR tactics and recruitment and who leaves and who stays, we discuss why new players leave, we discuss why vets leave, we discuss how to prevent those both groups from clashing in some kind of class war but at the same time how to cater to both of them and nurture them and let them grow and...

Is it the same in other MMOs?

Yes but in other MMOs the devs don't tend to pay as much attention to those ideas proposed by players. There are two good reasons to not pay to much attention to player wishes:

1. Players are selfish and will continuously ask for changes that benefit themselves even if it hurts the game overall.

2. Players don't have access to internal metrics that developers do and so players are prone to making poor decisions out of lack of incite into internal game mechanics.

That is why CCP's approach has worked rather well, thus far.
They haven't given the players the keys to the castle, so to speak, but at the same time, they don't have a one way drawbridge. They manage to listen, decipher signal from noise (most of the time anyway), and make decisions with said signal in mind. A 100% player run Eve development would be catastrophic; no one denies that.

The games development has been so largely influenced by nullsec wishes that the outcome for nullsec can only be accurately quantified as catastrophic. Further, not content with destroying nullsec, the cartels spend their every waking minute trying to get CCP devs to make highsec like their boring nullsec.

CCP has already made it clear that they are fully intending to kowtow to nullsec wishes, as usual, as they move to 'put more of high sec into player controlled hands" (read: into nullsec cartel hands).

So, I disagree that CCP has approached its game development with the measured mindset you insist it does.

The games development has been so largely influenced by nullsec wishes that the outcome for nullsec can only be accurately quantified as catastrophic.

CCP has already made it clear that they are fully intending to kowtow to nullsec wishes

The games development has been so largely influenced by nullsec wishes that the outcome for nullsec can only be accurately quantified as catastrophic. Further, not content with destroying nullsec, the cartels spend their every waking minute trying to get CCP devs to make highsec like their boring nullsec.

CCP has already made it clear that they are fully intending to kowtow to nullsec wishes, as usual, as they move to 'put more of high sec into player controlled hands" (read: into nullsec cartel hands).

So, I disagree that CCP has approached its game development with the measured mindset you insist it does.

The games development has been so largely influenced by nullsec wishes that the outcome for nullsec can only be accurately quantified as catastrophic. Further, not content with destroying nullsec, the cartels spend their every waking minute trying to get CCP devs to make highsec like their boring nullsec.

CCP has already made it clear that they are fully intending to kowtow to nullsec wishes, as usual, as they move to 'put more of high sec into player controlled hands" (read: into nullsec cartel hands).

So, I disagree that CCP has approached its game development with the measured mindset you insist it does.

Okay....holy ****. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad.

So, modern gamers, how does it feel to know that 90% of you can't even beat the first level of a game that I beat when I was six years old?

Devs ignore mission running just as they ignore mining in terms of engaging gameplay. Tell me with straight face it's not true. We get MTU and ESS and buffed up ships but gameplay around two huge parts of PVE stays untouched since years. We got mini game and loot vomit which recently got removed because it was clear how idiotic it was.

But some of the things people are asking for? Cutscenes, voice acting in the middle of missions and such? That is never happening.

if its non supressable and takes up the whole screen, while you are in space id be ok with it

Okay....holy ****. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad.

So, modern gamers, how does it feel to know that 90% of you can't even beat the first level of a game that I beat when I was six years old?

While the NPE has its problems, I don't think it's the main cause of newbies not being "educated" about eve as a whole, but rather it's the guys who've been in the starter corps forever on their mains. They're the ones who're constantly telling the rookies to stay outta lowsec, and propagating the same old lies that have been around forever.

Recent (paraphrased) conversation I got involved in on a newer alt ...

Newbie -- so, I bought this thing ... and when I tried jumping into the system, I got this warning ...
Carebear vet -- means it was in lowsec, you shouldn't go there because the gate is camped, and you will die immediately upon entering.
(me) -- not necessarily. Just because it's lowsec doesn't mean it's camped, or that you'll die just for jumping in.
Carebear -- What do you know? You're only 6 months old, and I've been playing for 5 years!!!
Newbie -- uh, well ... I'm gonna listen to him, because he's older, and knows what he's talking about ...
(me) -- ...

Please stop shoveling that Bullcrap. In all my years of playing I have never seen anyone state that crap in RUN Corp.

Please stop shoveling that Bullcrap. In all my years of playing I have never seen anyone state that crap in RUN Corp.

When a new player complains about getting blown up in low sec, one of the first questions asked is what were they doing and how was their ship fitted. After getting pointers on basic ship fitting, info is usually posted on how to be safer. Along with other links here's some of my favorite ones to post :

Rookie Lowsec Survival Guide

Safe Spot

Directional Scanner Guide

Star Map

Factional Warfare

Joining A Corporation

New Players are also informed they can get more info guides via Google, Uniwiki, Evelopedia, etc.

As for the NPE, granted it could be made better but it doesn't just cover Mining and running Missions. It also covers basic Industry, Trade, Exploration as well as basic PvP / Factional Warfare. I usually encourage new players to complete all 5 Career Agents along with the Level 1 Sisters Of Eve Epic Arc to allow them time to train up Core Fitting skills. That also gives them time to decide on a career path, not to mention making them a nice chunk of ISK. Also there's a few missions in the Level 1 Epic Arc that New Players need help to complete, basically introducing them to working with others doing Fleet action.

What I usually hear New Players complain about is all the reading and searching for required info right at the start. I just tell them doing a little bit of research first helps a lot which get's easier after a while. Definitely don't be afraid to ask for help and to always remember the 5 P's = Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance.

my $0.02 on the EVE NPE: http://themittani.com/features/reflections-2014-eve-newbie

Please stop shoveling that Bullcrap. In all my years of playing I have never seen anyone state that crap in RUN Corp.

As for the NPE, granted it could be made better but it doesn't just cover Mining and running Missions. It also covers basic Industry, Trade, Exploration as well as basic PvP / Factional Warfare.

For a while, my suggestion has been to just take the time to roll out a procedurally generated mission system. That would be both easier and have more longevity if they do it correctly.

Well, I ask again: why keep PVE around at all?

Nobody reasonable asks for themepark, at least I don't but FFS don't tell me PVE is fine as it is.

Rats are borderline stupid, their ships have bonkers fits, they spawn in exactly same places and exactly same order and exactly same configurations, agents need to speak with you face to face while you can see if guy at the other side of universe is online or not. AI is not an easy thing to implement properly and balance but 3 other things?

C'mon, fixing them would get rid of eve-survival for good, more ships would explode so more would be bought and built, maybe people would fleet up more willingly (especially if rewards would scale up with fleet size), no more predictable and calculated up to nanosecond ISK/h min maxing.

Would it be so terrible?

What lessons can CCP learn from Blizzard when we compare their respective games?

I remember this idea, didn't remember who posted it, it was quite a long time ago. And what happened? Nothing.

You said amount of work needed for PVE content is huge in comparison to how fast it gets old news and people want more new stuff. Well, I ask again: why keep PVE around at all?

C'mon, fixing them would get rid of eve-survival for good, more ships would explode so more would be bought and built, maybe people would fleet up more willingly (especially if rewards would scale up with fleet size), no more predictable and calculated up to nanosecond ISK/h min maxing.

Would it be so terrible?

GǪto not really do anything different since Star Citizen, should it ever come out and actually work properly, is not a competitor to EVE. The only thing the two have in common is the space setting.

Star Citizen is dangerous to EVE in the same way that Star Craft II was dangerous, or DNF, or Diablo 3.

If you were to make of list of things to do in both games, they would be 90% percent the same, based on EVE's list of known items and SC's list of promised items.

I can't think of a single reason to login to EVE once EVE 2.0 comes out in the form of SC or Valkyrie.

If you were to make of list of things to do in both games, they would be 90% percent the same, based on EVE's list of known items and SC's list of promised items.

Although the game appears to be on track, that's not the point. The point is game time. I can't think of a single reason to login to EVE once EVE 2.0 comes out in the form of SC or Valkyrie.

Did people seriously say that StarCraft II was going to hurt EVE?
Wow.

SC will not deliver on its promises. It might give you a rudimentary space sim but it's not going to be balanced, immersive, or vast. Several of its design principles are contradictory (it wants to allow people to play on their own servers, yet advertizes MMO gameplay value on official servers). Every time game development fails to live up to expectations and hype instead of scaling back the scope of their project they just continue to promise even more than before.

And I have an alt in every Amarr and Gallente NPC corp(confirmed altaholic). With the exception of CAS, who have a good attitude, I have seen plenty of people state precisely that crap.

"just go mine until you can afford a battleship"

"don't into lowsec, that's just for griefers"

"suicide gankers should be banned"

"you can't pvp without ten million skillpoints"

And other such defeatist, alienating crap.