Been a bazillion threads about the upcoming mayhem the suicide gankers have planned Nov 29th.
No amount of whining on the forums will change that. It is a valid game mechanic, no matter how much I and so many others wish it was not.

But CCP, how about letting us get a little retribution?
Not every miner belongs to an NPC corp, or a pure industrial PC corp.
Some of the miners have friends or other chars in their corp that might have some teeth.

I believe there is something in my journals about having killrights for 30 days after someone nails me.
Not sure how that mechanic works, nor specifically care.

But CCP, what I AM suggesting to a modification of that kill right.
Make it activate in such a manner that if someone is suicide ganked in a corp, the ENTIRE corp has kill rights on that suicide ganker for 30 days.
That asshat...er..suicide ganker would be fair game to anyone in the corp wherever they can be found in game.

But some stipulations:


1. Only the victim's corp, not an alliance, can seek retribution.
2. You get to kill the ganker only once. Whether the ganker is in a faction BS or rookie ship, once you blow him up once, the the kill rights are gone.
3. The ganker changes corps, the kill rights against him follow him.
4. If the suicide ganker is even yellow-boxed by a member of the victim corp, the suicide ganker can defend as he was operating under a war dec with the victim corp.
5. If retribution combat is engaged, pods on both sides can be destroyed with no Concord impact.

I am betting a ton of these elite PvP'ers would suddenly reconsider their operations if they rolled through a gate and saw 3 or 4 corp members waiting for him the next day. I mean, geez, they might actually get a loss mail then on their record, and that wouldn't do.

Been a bazillion threads about the upcoming mayhem the suicide gankers have planned Nov 29th.
No amount of whining on the forums will change that. It is a valid game mechanic, no matter how much I and so many others wish it was not.

But CCP, how about letting us get a little retribution?
Not every miner belongs to an NPC corp, or a pure industrial PC corp.
Some of the miners have friends or other chars in their corp that might have some teeth.

I believe there is something in my journals about having killrights for 30 days after someone nails me.
Not sure how that mechanic works, nor specifically care.

But CCP, what I AM suggesting to a modification of that kill right.
Make it activate in such a manner that if someone is suicide ganked in a corp, the ENTIRE corp has kill rights on that suicide ganker for 30 days.
That asshat...er..suicide ganker would be fair game to anyone in the corp wherever they can be found in game.

But some stipulations:


1. Only the victim's corp, not an alliance, can seek retribution.
2. You get to kill the ganker only once. Whether the ganker is in a faction BS or rookie ship, once you blow him up once, the the kill rights are gone.
3. The ganker changes corps, the kill rights against him follow him.
4. If the suicide ganker is even yellow-boxed by a member of the victim corp, the suicide ganker can defend as he was operating under a war dec with the victim corp.
5. If retribution combat is engaged, pods on both sides can be destroyed with no Concord impact.

I am betting a ton of these elite PvP'ers would suddenly reconsider their operations if they rolled through a gate and saw 3 or 4 corp members waiting for him the next day. I mean, geez, they might actually get a loss mail then on their record, and that wouldn't do.

I believe there is something in my journals about having killrights for 30 days after someone nails me.
Not sure how that mechanic works, nor specifically care.

But CCP, what I AM suggesting to a modification of that kill right.

Maybe you should take the time to learn a bit about the thing you're looking to modifyGǪ hmm?

By the way, why do you need further tools for retribution?

4. If the suicide ganker is even yellow-boxed by a member of the victim corp, the suicide ganker can defend as he was operating under a war dec with the victim corp.

Further, it is pretty pointless for an industrial alt to have kill rights, since the vast majority of indy alts don't have the skills to seek retribution. But a corp, that is another matter.

Well, I do know that the killrights are for me and me alone to utilize, certainly not my entire corp.
Further, it is pretty pointless for an industrial alt to have kill rights, since the vast majority of indy alts don't have the skills to seek retribution. But a corp, that is another matter.

Are you trying to get more carebears killed? Seriously, locking should not ever be considered a hostile action.

And really, there is no difference between 1 carebear not collecting killrights on me and 100 carebears not collecting killrights on me. Makes no difference in the end. A few bold carebears will be more confident in numbers, but that will quickly change the first time it goes bad (which will likely be the first time they attempt to fight back).

Then they'd have 100 easy targets instead of 1 :)

So in other words, the tools are there, but people choose not to make use of them.

GǪso why are further tools needed?

So in other words, the tools are there, but people choose not to make use of them.

GǪso why are further tools needed?

Let's put it this way, either you underestimate the amount of indy pilots that have compentent PvP alts or corp mates, or I am overestimating the combat capabilities of most industrial corps.

One way, you get more PvP which you guys profess to love so much, other way, nothing changes and this proposed change does not affect you. Seems like a no-lose situation for suicide gankers.

Now you are being obtuse. The existing kill rights mechanism works on an individual level, and is inadequate for the vast majority of indy alts to seek retribution.

Now you are being obtuse. The existing kill rights mechanism works on an individual level, and is inadequate for the vast majority of indy alts to seek retribution.

Tippia, as much as I appreciate you fighting the good fight for the sake of this game's integrity, I think you should actually not argue against this proposal.

Read my post.

PVP ships are usually buffer tanked. Given enough time, you can kill most of them with a poorly fit cruiser on an industry character with barely any PVP skills. All you need are corpies to keep you alive with RR, and possibly add a bit of DPS if the target is dumb enough to shoot them.

In other words (again, and until you get the point I'm making), they have chosen to make use of the tools available.


Nah, I think I will, partly because the OP admits to not knowing or caring about the mechanics he want to discuss (which means he has no business discussing them) and partly because it's a pretty awful idea compared to the oft-proposed alternatives.

I believe there is something in my journals about having killrights for 30 days after someone nails me.
Not sure how that mechanic works, nor specifically care.

But CCP, what I AM suggesting to a modification of that kill right.
Make it activate in such a manner that if someone is suicide ganked in a corp, the ENTIRE corp has kill rights on that suicide ganker for 30 days.

Fair enough. Let me paraphrase to make sure I am understanding what you are saying:
Under the current game mechanics, if the suicide ganker is attacked by a past indy victim, say with minimal skills (but has to have the ability to fit a scram/disrupter to get the initial tackle), the indy victim's corp buddies can keep on RR'ing the indy victim with no chance of the suicide ganker shooting the RR corp buddies?

And even if it did, the suicide ganker would be able to burn back to a gate and jump long before the industrial with the poor PvP skills could bring down the suicide ganker's ship. Somehow, I think some indy alt with say L2 in medium autocannons and BC III, in a Cane against a Tornado, not much chance of bringing down the Tornado.

The overall problem with the proposal is that it assumes the gankers have any interest in their gank alt. Or that blowing up said alt would do anything to ruin their day. Which is of course preposterous. I've been ganked once. Got careless moving 40M or so out of Jita. Checked the KRs for that toon and saw that I had rights on a character maybe a couple weeks old (told you, careless. transpo in an unfit frig.). I mean it can't fly anything worth killing. If it could I would have been docked with a locator fitting a PvP ship. As it is he likely transferred anything of value to another toon and has stopped any training on the gank alt some time ago now. This is the real problem with the mechanic. There is really no risk on the ganker's end. And extended kill rights would not create any.

No. If your friends bring ships with both RR and a bit of DPS (Like a hospital Domi, which has 400+ DPS on top of good repping capabilities), getting shot at would be a good thing. Once the target shoots one of your friends, they can start shooting him back, tilting the fight even more in your favor.


There are ways of getting around that as well. Bumping them off the station or gate could work. Or you can hope they stay aggressed. If they want to jump or dock, they will have to wait at least a minute from the last time they shot you.

Plenty of pilots suicide gank with their mains, or at least alts they actually care about. The same would apply to lowsec ganks as well.

Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

Actually, I don't really think many on either side of the fence would object to some version of this being introduced.

That being said, and yes I've felt the need to repeat this chestnut often lately...

... be careful what you wish for...

I suicide gank with my main. So do plenty of my alliance mates. But my advice wasn't necessarily for collecting killrights on suicide gankers, just collecting killrights in general. The fact that you can't get back at suicide gank alts is pretty much irrelevant to the OP's suggestion, and there really is no possible fix for it that isn't game-breaking.

As a side note, so few people actually collect killrights these days that we tend to surprise the **** out of other PVPers when we go and collect ours. It's really quite convenient.

Cool story bro. I wasted 5 minutes of my time and looked at your killboard a bit. Did not see any highsec hulk kills. Or haulers for that matter.

this

*bows*

How is the functionality broken when it is the player's choice to exclude himself from the functionality?

No, it is not useless GÇö it is just not used because people are not willing to use it. That is thier choice, not a flaw in the system.

How is the functionality broken when it is the player's choice to exclude himself from the functionality?
No, it is not useless GÇö it is just not used because people are not willing to use it. That is thier choice, not a flaw in the system.
Wow. That was probably the most clueless thing I've heard in a long timeGǪ

Take a minute to consider why it's called suicide ganking, and why what you just said makes no sense.

Oh, and do yourself a favour: think before you type and figure out some kind of argument before opening your mouth and stinking up the place.

Most people that suicide gank live in nullsec or at least low sec. If you want revenge you can find me in dek usually. Question is, will you leave the safety of high sec? Cause you never get anything in revenge from me in high sec.

I think you'll find that there is no such thing as suicide ganking in lowsec or nullsec. Goon ice mining kills aside, they usually operate in hisec and gank haulers on their way to Jita, usually in Uedama. When they get a low sec status, they use up 2 more alts and then just close the account and start another one to avoid the recycling alts rule.

Give kill rights for the ganker and any characters found on accounts that use the same IP address. Also make it possible for victims freinds to have kill right.

At the moment there are hardly any penalties for suicide ganking. Maybe they would think twice if their shiny 2bn+ isk capital ship is destroyed becaus their alt in a 100kisk ship on another account suicided ganked someones miner.

Give kill rights for the ganker and any characters found on accounts that use the same IP address. Also make it possible for victims freinds to have kill right.

At the moment there are hardly any penalties for suicide ganking. Maybe they would think twice if their shiny 2bn+ isk capital ship is destroyed becaus their alt in a 100kisk ship on another account suicided ganked someones miner.

I know why you don't like this change.

Gankers use friends to fly the hauler-thiefs or the neutral RR-alts which secure the loot of the gank-victims.

Now a gank-victim could use HIS friends to secure the killrights ...

PS: it's just another component of this game where balance FAIL hardcore!
The criminal and anti sozial players get all help they want/need and their targets get nothing!

If he chooses not to make use of that right

The criminal and anti sozial players get all help they want/need and their targets get nothing!

Good news, you can shoot my capitals and super capital already without kill rights since they are only in low or null sec.-á

Will you come out and shoot it without Concord or faction police though?-á

brainless

As if a dedicated miner/industrial had the needed ingame skills to use them.
But hey it's cool, as soon as you gank someone, your victim gain FREE fighting skills for 30 days so he can make use of his killrights.
That's a deal I can live with ;).

Or how about this. Your victim get his skills boosted to the level of your skills.

If you gank him in a Arti Trasher ... he instantly gain the skills to use a Arti Trasher to kill you WITHOUT WASTING HIS TIME TO TRAIN FOR IT!

As if a dedicated miner/industrial had the needed ingame skills to use them.

In a game which actively encourages the use of altsGǪ

Why even bother giving kill rights at all.

I do agree a lot with what Tippia is saying but kill rights should be given to corp members of the victim.-á

At the moment you can't and its kind of like a soldier not being allowed to shoot a known enemy that shot one of his squad mates....just does not make sense to me.

brainless

This thread only proves that carebears have always and will forever whine about ganking, even when it's getting nerfed.

Go get a brain and don't get ganked you retards.

Yes, but that's his choice GÇö why should the game compensate for his (apparently) poor choice?

Sure there is. First of all because it comes from someone who doesn't know or care about the mechanics he wants to change. That alone makes his idea highly suspect. Second of all (and probably as a consequence of that) because there are far better proposals that the OP doesn't know (or care?) about.

I am betting a ton of these elite PvP'ers would suddenly reconsider their operations if they rolled through a gate and saw 3 or 4 corp members waiting for him the next day. I mean, geez, they might actually get a loss mail then on their record, and that wouldn't do.

If you've seen a better proposal to fix killrights, then why not link the thread? Aside from then not being able to engage in pointless forum arguments :)
As for the argument that every hulk pilot should have to train combat skills to exercise his kill rights, why? Specialisation is a huge part of Eve Online gameplay, with alts existing for every almost role, including suicide ganking and mining. Combat pilots can follow bookmarks collected by a scout alt, they can warp to a beacon created by a cyno alt, they can suicide gank based on information gathered by a scouting alt, they can send and receive ISK from their market alts. But when a mining alt wants to farm out some killing duties to a combat character, suddenly that's not cool and he should have to the same dude?

The only decent argument I've seen against the idea is from the Goonswarm guy. His point being that if he ganks someone and the target and his corp come for revenge, they all get the first shot advantage before he can fire back, and if I understand it correctly the ganker's corpmates can't fire back at all. So on that basis perhaps trading kill rights on a one for one basis would work better? So any miners in an indy corp that get ganked pass the kill rights on to their enforcer combat pilot who is then in a position to return the favour, and you still get one one one encounters(to start with anyway).

Why, my corp or alliance will not be able to shoot you. Kill rights give you an advantage as you can dictate the fight is 1 vs 1 (beyond a remote) and when to have the fight.

The revenge is personal. You don't get to pile up when your kill right can't do the same.

You overestimate the chances of non-PvPers. I've personally beaten gangs of 6-8 high sec bears easily in a single battlecruiser. Now, granted, not everyone in high sec is a complete **** in PvP (which I've also experienced).

So are you basing this Kill Right fix on just suicide ganks or all types of Kill Rights?

Why should I give you the chance to fight back, your suicide ganker gave my miner no chance to fight back. Whoever chooses to fight one on one deserves to lose their ship for being stupid, unless its a pre agreed duel. If someone shot and injured a squad mate would only the injured guy fight back or would his squadd mates shoot back.

You guys do know that there's a button that lets you declare war on other corps right? If you want your entire corp to be able to shoot at someone for as long as you want you can use that.

Also if you made killrights transfer to corps I'd start suicide ganking just so loads of crappy highsec corps had kill rights on me, it would be awsome.

Who said you do? You could gank me with the kill right and not worry about concord at all. That's what kill rights give you. A chance for personal revenge for the personal gank.-á

If something like what I was put in place, I would think that the suicide ganker could expect a visit from the corp PvP'ers within 30 days.

Maybe my corps have been the exception.
But what I am proposing is a no-lose scenario for gankers, if they truly want PvP.

It's a no-win situation for the victim, if they're all as stupid as you.
I've not only ganked (whatever) and had my fun / ISK .... but I now have an endless stream of carebears trying to fight back? AWESOME.
I would suicide gank 5 times more, leading to 5 times the victims with your proposed changes.

And if my character is not able to gain revenge by themselves due to sp allocation or inexperience in low/null sec it makes it a free gank with no consequences for the ganker. I would not come after you alone unless it was 100% certain that I would win, that is what a corp is for.

My point is aimed primarily at high sec gankers, people who just use alts and gank high sec miners and haulers. As I think you said I dont need a kill right to attack someone in low/null sec as the rules are different. Players should not be able to hide behind alts to feed there main isk without the main becoming vulnerable.

Being able to trade kill rights with a redone bounty system would be good. You sell someone your kill rights as a bounty on them. You can then as the bounty hunter collect the bounty on the kill right for successful destruction.-á

This would stop (mostly, I guess a bounty hunter could gank with alt but he would still need to get you to bounty te kill right to him) the huge issue that has broken the bounty system where I can just collect my own bounty.-á

Problem is you still won't collect it if you just stick to high sec or they only appear to gank. Oh well.-á

Typical. You have no clue what you are talking about, and it shows that you have no grasp of the game it self.



I suicide gank on my main when it suits me.

I do not use an alt to do this.

I have 60+ kill rights on me right now. (It has been slow, holidays and all) I will send you the ******* list, you can gather up a pose.

The gate / station guns will not shoot at you or your corp/ gang / fleet no mater where you are if you agress me.

You / Your corp / gang or fleet will not receive a sec hit if you all come after me.

I am vulnerable, you have everything in your favor.

So now what?

You are dumb. You think people pay 40 bucks after a few hits. You will never get revenge on us in high sec though. Feel free to leave high sec where you don't even need kill rights though.-á

i dont have a problem with you, you gank on your main and any individual who has kill rights on you can use them to kill you. When you gank someone you are aware of the possible consequences to your main character. If you ever ganked me i would assess any situation where i had the possibility of revenge and if situation was heavily in my favour I would take it. My problem is with alts who gank and all the benefits of the gank goes to their main character who suffers none of the consequences.

My argument for enabling corp members of the victim be able to enact the kill right is just common sense, freinds and allies stick together. If someone was to mug my best mate in RL I would kick the **** out of the person responsible if i ever met them and I am sure a lot of other people would. Similar principles should be allowed in eve.

When I looked through the new feature set, I didn't see a single change that will make things easier for the gankees, but several changes that will make ganking more 'fun' and more profitable.

Why do I bother to post this? I don't know.

As I have said several times, my proposal is a no-lose situation for gankers.
Either my proposal has no effect on gankers because I have over-estimated the willingness and capabilities of the industrial corps to attack gankers, or the industrial corps DO take advantage of a new mechanic and all the gankers who profess to love PvP so much will suddenly have more coming to them.

If that happens, CCP will either nerf the new BC's and destroyers somewhat, and/or they make a change to the retribution system to dissuade the gankers.

The issue, is that it makes it EASIER to gank than ever before. Given your stated reason for wanting such a change is to give retribution to the gankers ... where is your logic?

The only winner in this scenario is the ganker.
The only loser in this scenario is the gankee / gankees corp mates.

There is no reason at all to implement this.

Such as ..... ?
You're literally the only person complaining about Crucible.

I am working off the assumption that suicide gankers underestimate the resolve and skill capabilities of most industrial corps to hunt down a ganker within 30 days

I don't believe the propaganda spread by suicide gankers that industrial corps don't have combat pilots, and this proposal would not be taken advantage of by industrial corps.

And so what if I am wrong? I could be, easily. What happens then?

You need to read the pre-release propaganda again. If you still can't figure it out, it's not my fault.

Insurance is no longer paid out for players who are killed by CONCORD.

Many points slamming my proposal

Just one question:

If you are a ganker, and love PvP so much, why are you ridiculing a proposal that will get you MORE of what you want?

Does this mean that if players are killed by other players before CONCORD can do so that the insurance is still paid out?

Asked this in the wardec thread but no replies so does anyone know the answer to this?

I'm ridiculing your OP, which suggests it is something to HELP the victim.

If you want to edit the OP to say "gankers should have more victims, please" then please, go ahead if that is what you mean.

What you actually mean, however, is you STILL think this will help indy corps and you're trying to leverage points as to why it won't in your favour.

Bluntly, you neither understand or WANT to understand the mechanics involved (you admitted as much) so any suggestion you put forth has to be seen in that light. i.e. one of ignorance to the facts.

Counterpoint: if it achieves nothing, why should CCP waste time to code it in?
Counterpoint2: If, like it has been suggested, it achieves MORE victims, what is your proposal going forward? Patch in more changes to deal with the changes? That wouldn't have been necessary had CCP not listened to someone who knows **** all?

Sorry, your arguments don't fly.

If you were management, and I was labour, and we were negotiating a new labour deal, would you tell me "no, we can't add that to the agreement since it is bad for labour and good for me."

The only logical reason I see you ridiculing this is because it would be BAD for gankers

therefore it is in the best interests of gankers to try to shut down any proposal that might have the slightest chance of giving industrial victms a fighting chance

The current system does not work, and this is a proposal to fix it

Uh, no, we do want procedures and processes that will impede our manner of gameplay. Do not presume about that which you do not know.

I'd enjoy ganking ten times as much if the victims actually tried to get some kind of revenge. I guess this is somewhat of a Catch-22 though, since now it means that you would be hurting me more by not getting revenge, even though getting revenge is supposed to be the act that hurts me in the first place...

Now you are being obtuse. The existing kill rights mechanism works on an individual level, and is inadequate for the vast majority of indy alts to seek retribution.

and when the carebears are finally gone the wolves will eat ech other and eventually Eve will die because there is only 1 fat wolf left.

Been a bazillion threads about the upcoming mayhem the suicide gankers have planned Nov 29th.
No amount of whining on the forums will change that. It is a valid game mechanic, no matter how much I and so many others wish it was not.

But CCP, how about letting us get a little retribution?
Not every miner belongs to an NPC corp, or a pure industrial PC corp.
Some of the miners have friends or other chars in their corp that might have some teeth.

I believe there is something in my journals about having killrights for 30 days after someone nails me.
Not sure how that mechanic works, nor specifically care.

But CCP, what I AM suggesting to a modification of that kill right.
Make it activate in such a manner that if someone is suicide ganked in a corp, the ENTIRE corp has kill rights on that suicide ganker for 30 days.
That asshat...er..suicide ganker would be fair game to anyone in the corp wherever they can be found in game.

But some stipulations:


1. Only the victim's corp, not an alliance, can seek retribution.
2. You get to kill the ganker only once. Whether the ganker is in a faction BS or rookie ship, once you blow him up once, the the kill rights are gone.
3. The ganker changes corps, the kill rights against him follow him.
4. If the suicide ganker is even yellow-boxed by a member of the victim corp, the suicide ganker can defend as he was operating under a war dec with the victim corp.
5. If retribution combat is engaged, pods on both sides can be destroyed with no Concord impact.

I am betting a ton of these elite PvP'ers would suddenly reconsider their operations if they rolled through a gate and saw 3 or 4 corp members waiting for him the next day. I mean, geez, they might actually get a loss mail then on their record, and that wouldn't do.

I give it 5-7 days after uptime tomorrow before we start seeing the full effects of the new deathgank boats.
If they are as popular with gankers as many expect, then I think CCP will have a problem on their hands.

The effectiveness of the boats have been well documented on the forums by numerous Sisi testers.
What remains to be seen is the willingness and quantity of gankers to use them to create mayhem.
If enough suicide gankers start using them, they could turn the economy upside down, which CCP cannot allow.

If that happens, CCP will either nerf the new BC's and destroyers somewhat, and/or they make a change to the retribution system to dissuade the gankers.

As I have said several times, my proposal is a no-lose situation for gankers.
Either my proposal has no effect on gankers because I have over-estimated the willingness and capabilities of the industrial corps to attack gankers, or the industrial corps DO take advantage of a new mechanic and all the gankers who profess to love PvP so much will suddenly have more coming to them.