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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
152
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Posted - 2014.08.12 19:06:00 -
[271] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Exactly. It's not like you are unable to fly frigates now...
Perhaps I just needed a bit of encouragement. Whatever the reason it is nice to feel like I have new options and new places to go. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
41
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Posted - 2014.08.12 19:34:00 -
[272] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:The frigate blob will not get used by a wormhole corp wanting to roam null, but it will get used by the nullsec blob who wants to get a thousand frigates or destroyers into a wormhole, knowing that it's impossible for them to get trapped.
Seems like another nerf for w-space corps to me.
Oh, so now you came to the right side of the fence ; ) |
Katerina Verreuil
Deadspace Knights
0
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Posted - 2014.08.12 21:33:00 -
[273] - Quote
BLUF: FAIL
WH SPACE is not 0.0. The rules are different just as null is different than low is different than high. Why are you trying to make wormhole space the same as 0.0? C4s have less activity because people keep them closed. Everything doesn't have to be on a silly upwards curve. Black Holes being less desirable place to be allow for less strong corps to make a foothold in higher class wormholes. They can grow from there and make epic fights over space. EVE isn't always about frigate pew pew.
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CorranCHalcyon
THE AESIR.
0
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Posted - 2014.08.12 21:37:00 -
[274] - Quote
Here is my thinking on this. These new frigate holes are fine. I like the idea of them. However, the aspect of these new holes that gives them regenerating mass. CCP if you want to make these new holes nigh impossible to roll before they timeout just give them the total cumulative mass of a C6/C6. A corp/Alliance will not be able to roll that with frigates and dictors. Regenerating mass has no place in W-space.
Regenerating mass even for a hole that only frigs/destroyer hulls can fight through is unnecessary. And introduces a element to W-space that should not exist. Ever. Also in the future if you want to change W-space then add a new higher class of system. The elusive C7 system.
I will say I would prefer this W-hole would only go from W-space to W-space. There are always ample Null Sec holes to choose from if you want to go on a null roam. And with these new holes if there isn't a nullsec holw in your chain proper then with one of these holes a fleet can get a connection to another chain that does. And frigate roams for all.
If these holes can connect to Nullsec it really seems all null sec players want to do is blob steath bombers. The only nullbears know to do is blob. W-space is about small gang warfare. We have never wanted any mechanic that would allow us, or anyone, to be to blob anything. Blobing is not fun, there is no skill in it.
So in closing I am in favor of these new holes. I do object to regenerating mass for them. And I do not object but I would prefer they were exclusively W-space to W-space. I don't believe I have ever seen/scanned down a chain that hasn't had at least 1 null sec hole present.
Thank you CCP
Also, on a side note:
CCP I have a suggestion. If you find it feasible, split the CSM into three smaller CSM councils of three or four people. One for Null, Lowsec and W-space. They would all have the same duties as the current incarnation of the CSM does, but they would also represent their own areas of space. Null would have no responsibilities nor any say in W-space or Lowsec. And the other two councils would follow the same guidelines respectively. Also with this paradigm for CSM it would break the sheer numbers that Null Alliances have to control the vote for the majority of the CSM. It would give other organizations to have a primary voice. |
Apelacja
Fungi Company
81
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Posted - 2014.08.13 11:54:00 -
[275] - Quote
it is still unclear for me. CCP how many additional whs do u plan?
Somehow it is most important factor here to disscous. If that number is equal to 2-3 % of wh systems then it wouldn`t change eveyrhting to a mess. Otherwise welcome bombers blobs.
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
668
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Posted - 2014.08.13 11:58:00 -
[276] - Quote
Too easily abusable to do that, as there would be only 1 or two corporations in nullsec that would dominate the vote.
Also too easy to seed votes to low and nullsec.
It seems fair but its abusable. And eve is very well known for abusing the rules :-) Yaay!!!! |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
530
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Posted - 2014.08.13 13:19:00 -
[277] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:Coming from the indy side, we just upped the risk in ways that are very difficult to mitigate. Large entities will be able to jump a fleet through these holes and gank whomever is trying to mine, do PI, or running logistics with very little risk. With more risk and no offsetting reward you are chasing smaller entities from the WH base.
From a PVP perspective I can see this as fun, until the smaller entities all fold up and move out. Then with space devoid of targets it will once again be boring. How many times do we jump through 30-50 Null sec systems only to find POS spinning or empty systems. Without content improvements you can invent all the mechanics you want and the game will still not result in more gank/PVP opportunities. Large W-space groups, and by extension, your average Nullsec entity (already much larger than the "large" W-space groups).
If there were good reasons to use frigates, you can believe W-space would use them. We can certainly afford them.
If the negative reasons to use frigates were elimnated, even just some of them, you can believe W-space would use them. We can certainly afford them.
Forcing uncloseable, frigate-only holes onto W-space residents won't make W-space use them. It's just an excuse to give Nullsec a way to swarm W-space with cheap zerglings, get a few ganks, and run home through a hole that is guaranteed to exist for a set amount of time regardless of the mass put through it (Wormhole Stabilizers, anyone?) without W-space able to follow them and retaliate in our typical and ruthless manner.
Phoenix Jones wrote:Is it possible for a frigate fleet of 200 to jump though in the current wormhole mechanics (even a c1 wormhole). Yes.
This is just something specific to frigates. Over the lifetime of the frig hole, you could potentially bring a frigate blob.
But you can also do that now. Exactly. If it were worthwhile for W-space, we would be doing it now.
The only difference with these new holes is that you can be blobbed, but can't follow them home except on their terms. Oh, and the way home is guaranteed to still exist. So ... who is deathly afraid of W-space hunters and also afraid of being trapped? Right. Nullsec.
Frigate-sized holes? Sure, whatever. CCP bends over for Nullsec all the time, so why should this be any different. Really, the worst part about this is CCP pretending that it's for W-space, when it's purely to support their Nullsec buddies who can't do wormholes cause they're hard. As are many of the changes "for W-space" in this upcoming release.
However, don't make them basically unlimited mass by regenerating over time. If you're going to screw with W-space for the benefit of Nullsec like this, at least keep with the w-space spirit of the risk of losing your way back home. You can push a CovOps Frigate through the hole to scan a way back. It's not that hard, and they're even frigate-sized.
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Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
473
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Posted - 2014.08.13 13:35:00 -
[278] - Quote
its fascinating how much hisec NPC corps hate this new hole... W-Space Realtor |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1007
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Posted - 2014.08.13 16:10:00 -
[279] - Quote
Personally, I believe, if these wormholes are not opening to a new class of wormhole space, there is no significant benefit to them opening up to anywhere other than wormhole space.
Nullsec already can access WHSpace through existing wormholes, and we can access them also simply.
There is no benefit, and some downsides to these mass-lite holes opening to null, I can see some justification and slight benefit to them opening into HS however.
Overall the benefits of Kspace access, do not justify the potential disruption.
But I am not personally strongly feeling that it is a gamebreaking issue either way, just a net negative.
If however you intend to create a new class of wormhole space accessed only through these passages, then that is quite a different story............
Ps. Yes please !
New space with no POS possible due to hole size and new adventures, would be sheer awesomesauce. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
141
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Posted - 2014.08.13 17:57:00 -
[280] - Quote
Fozzie? Whats this about wandering kspace in c4's? Thought that wasnt suppose to exist ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2014.08.14 02:38:00 -
[281] - Quote
The entire idea of frigate only wormholes is a joke. What are you going to do with a frigate if there is a farming fleet? What should the farming fleet do about a bunch of frigates? Watch as the frigs pop like flies on a bug zapper from entering a combat site full of sleepers. Frigates aren't viable in the wormhole environment as sleepers just annihilate them. Maybe a dozen frigates might live long enough to do something in a C1, but other than that, I'd be shocked if the frigates lasted long at all trying to catch farmers in a combat site. Maybe you might catch someone mining, but who mines in a WH anymore? Once the ore sites no longer required probes to find, they are just ganktastic places to suicide your barge. |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
64
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Posted - 2014.08.14 02:40:00 -
[282] - Quote
Ahh... see this discussion just had a great idea from epicurus ataraxia
I can get exited about the potential of a new class of WH (call it C7) that can only be reached by these frigate size WHs and would spawn multiple connections. This space could have brand new content: sites that could be run by a frigate fleet. Sites that could be mined or gassed by the new exploration frigates.... all sorts of possibilities that added PVE content (a reason to go there and try to control it) so that PVP would be a outcome and winning would be desirable.
So what do you add PVE wise? my answer, everything: ore, frigate sites, ghost sites, gas, moon goo through ring mining, ICE, Relic or data sites that contained new materials for high meta module and deployable pos module items. That makes for exiting space, a sort of fleet war on steroids meeting space that could promise riches and was only reachable through WH space. You now have a potential carrot and the stick of PVP to make things happen that all parties in WH space will enjoy and a reason for more brave souls to enter WH space and take up residence so they might find these nasty little frigate holes to riches or doom.
The connections from this WH would be to many other WHs so the highway into the new C7 would have ample opportunity for multiple parties to find.
That makes something I was humdrum about suddenly very exiting and gives WH dwellers a reason to work on frigate doctrines. My one fear is that it still could too easily become a blob fest. |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
64
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Posted - 2014.08.14 02:42:00 -
[283] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:Ahh... see this discussion just had a great idea from epicurus ataraxia I can get exited about the potential of a new class of WH (call it C7) that can only be reached by these frigate size WHs and would spawn multiple connections. This space could have brand new content: sites that could be run by a frigate fleet. Sites that could be mined or gassed by the new exploration frigates.... all sorts of possibilities that added PVE content (a reason to go there and try to control it) so that PVP would be a outcome and winning would be desirable. So what do you add PVE wise? my answer, everything: ore, frigate sites, ghost sites, gas, moon goo through ring mining, ICE, Relic or data sites that contained new materials for high meta module and deployable pos module items. That makes for exiting space, a sort of fleet war on steroids meeting space that could promise riches and was only reachable through WH space. You now have a potential carrot and the stick of PVP to make things happen that all parties in WH space will enjoy and a reason for more brave souls to enter WH space and take up residence so they might find these nasty little frigate holes to riches or doom. The connections from this WH would be to many other WHs so the highway into the new C7 would have ample opportunity for multiple parties to find. That makes something I was humdrum about suddenly very exciting and gives WH dwellers a reason to work on frigate doctrines. My one fear is that it still could too easily become a blob fest. See, finally an almost wholly positive post from me
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1016
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Posted - 2014.08.14 08:53:00 -
[284] - Quote
The natural restrictions due to the size of the hole (devoter is the only ship I can see that could carry a small pos so would need looking at to prevent so no pos's) naturally discourages a blob fest, as they would, in practice, have to come in from outside. When one cannot put large quantities in a pos, then the balance would work. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
27
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Posted - 2014.08.14 08:56:00 -
[285] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:The entire idea of frigate only wormholes is a joke. What are you going to do with a frigate if there is a farming fleet? What should the farming fleet do about a bunch of frigates? Watch as the frigs pop like flies on a bug zapper from entering a combat site full of sleepers. Frigates aren't viable in the wormhole environment as sleepers just annihilate them. Maybe a dozen frigates might live long enough to do something in a C1, but other than that, I'd be shocked if the frigates lasted long at all trying to catch farmers in a combat site. Maybe you might catch someone mining, but who mines in a WH anymore? Once the ore sites no longer required probes to find, they are just ganktastic places to suicide your barge.
Your innocent naivety is sweet but we are not talking about a dozen we are talking about a hundred or more assault frigates . Meaning 15k DPS on a dread/carrier that is already under heavy sleeper dps/neut. Meh w/e , we probably are going to farm with a hictor and some smart bomb battleships on grid :). |
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
75
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Posted - 2014.08.14 10:49:00 -
[286] - Quote
How are you keeping hole control during a siege?
Can't collapse these and the enemy simply swarms enough frigs in or out to get a destination / other strategic data/advantages. |
Vodar Valimian
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 02:35:00 -
[287] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:Ahh... see this discussion just had a great idea from epicurus ataraxia
I can get exited about the potential of a new class of WH (call it C7) that can only be reached by these frigate size WHs and would spawn multiple connections.
Why stop there? Why not have pockets of non-sov nilsec (with maybe a High sec alien pocket) Say 4 or 5 systems reachable only through the frigate WH's connected to other pocket systems through larger WH's. Amazing opportunities for sandbox play.
Make the ecosystem rich enough for the herbivores and all manner of carnivores will come to play.
Vodar |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1561
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 02:57:00 -
[288] - Quote
These wormholes are pointless, except as Mytal pointed out, for giving nullbears the shot of confidence that comes from mass regeneration. Nullbears only enter wormholes they know will exist. And only then if it has an auto-bookarking feature (otherwise known as a stargate) which even the most ham-fisted muddy-footed nullsec ploughshare can utilise.
However, there's a LOT of people in this thread who are idiots. These are the people who say that frigates (and in this we include, c.f., bombers, AF's and EAF's) instapop from Sleepers. This is just not true. If you have logi on field, and are movving, often you take no damage from Sleepers, and only when webbed. Deal with webbing frigates early and often, and you can easily run C3 outposts with two AFs and one Execquror.
Yeah, re-read that if you are blind and cannot believe it.
Two AFs, one Exeq. I'd put a video up, but it's NSFW (not safe for w-bears).
The fact is, there is a lot of hide-bound and wrongheaded stereoptyping, tradition and mythology about w-space and what you can and cannot do Sleeper sites or PVP in. This tends to run towards the "armour is king"and the "T3 fleets are teh boss".
CCP Fozzie, despite his manifold and immense faults, is not mad to introduce frigate sized wormholes, nor to rejig W-R systems to make frigate sized weapons (theoretically used on Frigates) absolutely off the hook. All he is fighting against is a hell of a lot of people who have been indoctrinated into the whole mythos of "must bring Proteus, or neut legion, or Jamgu plus 6 Guardians" that infects w-space.
Good luck on changing that, Fozzie. You are only fighting a tide of fools who accept without questioning, and parrot what they hear reverberating from the inside of their own skulls. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1022
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 09:30:00 -
[289] - Quote
Vodar Valimian wrote:Mal Nina wrote:Ahh... see this discussion just had a great idea from epicurus ataraxia
I can get exited about the potential of a new class of WH (call it C7) that can only be reached by these frigate size WHs and would spawn multiple connections. Why stop there? Why not have pockets of non-sov nilsec (with maybe a High sec alien pocket) Say 4 or 5 systems reachable only through the frigate WH's connected to other pocket systems through larger WH's. Amazing opportunities for sandbox play. Make the ecosystem rich enough for the herbivores and all manner of carnivores will come to play. Vodar
Nice addition. Pretty decent idea.
Small pockets of null would give players the opportunity to hold their own little section of null away from the current alliances, but retain KS mechanics, as well as introducing and encouraging the brave and more independent to visit wormholes, even if only looking for transit routes. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Chrysaetus
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
0
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Posted - 2014.08.15 09:44:00 -
[290] - Quote
Don't forget it would be nice and much more realistic if the wh modification stats also applied to POS and structures (+ -shield, +-armor, etc.) |
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Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
476
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Posted - 2014.08.15 09:47:00 -
[291] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: logi on field, and are movving... I refuse to let some logi mow my field...
W-Space Realtor |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1022
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Posted - 2014.08.15 09:49:00 -
[292] - Quote
Chrysaetus wrote:Don't forget it would be nice and much more realistic if the wh modification stats also applied to POS and structures (+ -shield, +-armor, etc.) You might be in the wrong thread, but just to clarify. Wormholes do not work like that.
System effects only apply to Player ships and systems.
They have no effect on sleepers, structures, or other items.
The balancing of expanding on that would basically make wormhole space a very different place, and much less viable.
I understand why one would wish to be able to destroy a POS with ease in a armour boosting/shield weakening effect, but much of wormhole space would be uninhabitable.
So It would not be nice at all.
And we find wormhole space quite realistic, the mechanics may be hard to discover and learn, but they are ALWAYS consistent, and repeatable once you have discovered their complexity. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
43
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Posted - 2014.08.15 22:34:00 -
[293] - Quote
Please remove the Q413. 1000 dps enyos, 40 of them in a WR. Just think about that. Now, imagine them coming directly from nullsex. That's a Q413. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1563
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 05:48:00 -
[294] - Quote
You know how every B274 in the game ends up in Amarr space? it's exactly like that with the dronelands and Nullsex.
Who's living in nullsex?
That's right, PL's botting empire scrublords Brothers Of Tangra.
I would be concerned if 50 ventures come through and scrub your ore belts out. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1030
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Posted - 2014.08.16 09:46:00 -
[295] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:Please remove the Q413. 1000 dps enyos, 40 of them in a WR. Just think about that. Now, imagine them coming directly from nullsex. That's a Q413.
Well there is also the possibility that 40 come in and two make it back in structure...........
They might be the two who have half a clue about the wormhole space they have just jumped into. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
147
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Posted - 2014.08.16 11:32:00 -
[296] - Quote
Most likely you will see 2 coming through and then 100 stuck on the outside wondering why they cant jump in their cruisers ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
16
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Posted - 2014.08.16 21:36:00 -
[297] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:Your innocent naivety is sweet but we are not talking about a dozen we are talking about a hundred or more assault frigates . Fozzie just about confirmed when he was interviewed in Down the Pipe episode 38 (at about 44:30) that it'd be around about 30 frigates or so. |
Sto Lo
Tubbies
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 23:19:00 -
[298] - Quote
I am more interested in keeping Eve exciting for new players. I suggest CCP look at incenting value in the c1's , c2's atleast to get less skilled players in them. Currently there are few pos's in c1's and transit pvp seems to be the main activity. If we make c1's and c2's a little more valuable we could keep new players involved more in eve. New players become isk spenders as they grow the economy. Currently we seem to be placating the larger corps, we saw what happened to null. |
Traiori
Cause For Concern Easily Excited
187
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Posted - 2014.08.17 00:10:00 -
[299] - Quote
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:Lenroc Elisav wrote:Your innocent naivety is sweet but we are not talking about a dozen we are talking about a hundred or more assault frigates . Fozzie just about confirmed when he was interviewed in Down the Pipe episode 38 (at about 44:30) that it'd be around about 30 frigates or so.
My immediate thought is that this is plenty easy enough to crash. It just takes a few more pilots. Oh well. Most alts can fly frigates anyway. |
Randy Roid
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.08.17 02:40:00 -
[300] - Quote
This is going to be like FW in low-sec. Bunch of cheap **** frigates |
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