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| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
643
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Posted - 2014.08.27 08:06:00 -
[331] - Quote
I assume the large number of these holes is intended to kill the old way of thinking in w-space, where you almost always knew exactly where the intruder came from if you spotted a ship on d-scan. Now you may wonder if that cov ops came through the frig hole and is most likely just a minor threat, or if he came from one of your other four holes and is possibly the tackler for a strong fleet.
Also, with so many holes, the old habit of just not doing anything whenever you have an open hole in your system that you cannot close, must end; either you move out or you do stuff with holes open.
I like these changes although it will not be easy to adapt.
One exception though: That the frig-sized holes are indistinguishable from other holes on the k162 side until you try to jump through them really sucks. I hope it is an oversight and not Fozzie's way to get rid of the T3s he hates so much ;)
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japanese mafia
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.08.27 08:16:00 -
[332] - Quote
Loris Fritz wrote:This is a great new content generator for wspace. A wh you cannot close that lets pesky little frigs to catch your haulers and the like.... A possible wh that has ever present danger sounds like a lot of fun... Especially if you are the one hunting .
High-class and larger W-Space organizations don't fly random unscouted haulers around (much). They have transports ships and active corps that laugh at your frigates.
Low-class and smaller W-Space residents will not make as much money and many will leave W-Space. Sadface.
I'm not opposed to this idea entirely, but I don't think it will be healthy for the economics of W-Space, and will discourage smaller groups.
We all see how well discouraging smaller groups has worked out for sov null.
Sigh... |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
27
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Posted - 2014.08.27 08:44:00 -
[333] - Quote
I did raise this issue at the Town Hall - re Frigate size wormholes being a fairly big problem for smallish C3 and under corps, but no one else agreed at the time.
Everyone needs to farm from time to time, and if the risk/reward ratio gets so skewed why would you even move to a low end wormhole to start with ? Unless you have alts outside making isk and just use the WH for pvp alone - but that's less activity in w-space and less fights generally.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
643
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Posted - 2014.08.27 08:50:00 -
[334] - Quote
Everyone seems to forget that frigates are easy and quick to kill. Especially the cloaky ones that are most likely to come first through this kind of wormhole.
And it's also easy to bubble the hole which gives you some more time to kill the lone cloaky tackler frig while the big bad AF gang is still burning out of the bubble.
May not always work, but should give bears a fair chance to add a couple of frig kills to their KB before they die :)
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Jez Amatin
Enso Corp
5
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Posted - 2014.08.27 08:51:00 -
[335] - Quote
No really this is just as dumb for hunters as it is for preys, and i fail to understand the rationale behind restricting ship type in an environment that has fostered emergent game play.
but here are some ideas that may help mitigate the issues:
If wh is between j-space systems then make it a normal wh with no restrictions, although with the increase in connections i'm not sure we really need more...
add a description that reflects its mass limited
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Red Teufel
Hard Knocks Inc.
387
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Posted - 2014.08.27 11:58:00 -
[336] - Quote
waiting for people to realize you can fly a cheap ass frig and pew pew...and i'll fly a cheap frig fleet and gank you while you run a sleeper site. muhahahahaha |
Naglerr
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
14
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:02:00 -
[337] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:What could help is if CCP could give US some feedback on the amount of frig WH's there is in the pool and if there is too many that have been spawned in one region over another region?
^This. An official response from CCP on this would be fantastic. |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
76
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Posted - 2014.08.27 14:05:00 -
[338] - Quote
I see the new frigholes as the AFK cloaker of W-space..
They aren't usefull for anything but griefing the people next door, you know its there but can't do anything about it and you never know when an active stealthbomber will decloak and blow up your wrecks..
I thought CCP was unhappy with that kind of gamedesign, but hey.. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1578
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Posted - 2014.08.27 14:23:00 -
[339] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Everyone seems to forget that frigates are easy and quick to kill. Especially the cloaky ones that are most likely to come first through this kind of wormhole.
And it's also easy to bubble the hole which gives you some more time to kill the lone cloaky tackler frig while the big bad AF gang is still burning out of the bubble.
May not always work, but should give bears a fair chance to add a couple of frig kills to their KB before they die :)
Wait for 12 weeks until Fozzie drops frigate MJDs. Then you'll see about bubbling these things. You'll see.
J's before K's.
Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today!
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Malaphocent Malukker
Capsuleers Who Say Ni
0
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Posted - 2014.08.27 15:22:00 -
[340] - Quote
The C2 I occupy only had the two statics and zero transient or frig-holes.
Sounds like this is not the norm though.
It may just be a distribution problem that should get fixed naturally over time.
As part of small corp I am very concerned that the WH will be "open" far too often than "closed".
If it becomes nigh on impossible to run anoms then will probably relocate to rent-null.
This may be the end of the small corp WH dwellers. |
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Endo Riftbreaker
Antioch Brotherhood
27
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Posted - 2014.08.27 15:34:00 -
[341] - Quote
I'd like to echo the comments made by others about the negative impact to small/solo corps. The addition of so many new holes has made scanning and op sec a basic non-starter for any small group. I logged in yesterday, took one look at the 6 holes connecting to my system, the 5 holes connected to my static, and logged off.
The holes now are like swiss cheese, with each one having 5+ connections and 5 more connections in the hole you jump into. It feels like null-sec with a system that has 6 gates and no local! There's not a chance anyone in their right mind would take the risk to run some sites in this environment.
The feeling/lore of being lost/isoluated in W space is complete gone, it's just one giant interconnected parking lot now, with no one running anything and everyone POS'd up because you can't roll even 1 of the 6 connections you have.
For me, I'm a solo corp, I'll be running down my fuel reserves and then moving out of J space, and possibly leaving the game. WH's were the last place a solo operator could "claim" and defend/homestead a system, enjoy some PvP hunting/being hunted and make decent income. But I'm not here to be cannon fodder to the 150 people my home system is connected to on any given day, and I doubt many other low class WH inhabitants are either. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
27
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Posted - 2014.08.27 16:05:00 -
[342] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:
And it's also easy to bubble the hole which gives you some more time to kill the lone cloaky tackler frig while the big bad AF gang is still burning out of the bubble.
In which case you need an alt on every bubble to listen to activations - the cloaky isn't a tackler - he just gets a warp in for the inty that is.
[*] If you assume a 30 toon corp is actually just 10 people, all of whom dont' log in at once, then a whole lot of w-space is going to be empty fairly soon apart from PI farming. |
Alexander Eisenhower
The Scope
Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2014.08.27 16:23:00 -
[343] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:It's the point of moving out into wormhole space for most players and player corps and attempt to "get away" from the rest of the world and isolate? I go into wormhole space all the time and I like not having anyone around.
Exactly! |
Tryliu
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.27 17:13:00 -
[344] - Quote
I live in a C2 with a small Corporation.
I must say that the changes to WH's hurt our "game" drastically. Actually we are unable to run sites with so many incoming whormholes, we are unable to care about all of them. At the current status the risk <-> reward isn't something worth to talk about.
Same with our static C3. In addition to those nasty new whormholes our ability to roll our static is dramatically reduced. Its just a pain to try roll a wh with so many incoming wh's on both sides. The risk is to high the reward is to low.
Before Hyperion i thought moving into a wh is one and only chance for us to do something "meaningfull" (atleast for us). Joining one the big 0-Blobbers to just be a "number" is just nothing i want to talk about now. Yeah, but with the current wh-mechanics small corps like us wont have a good time in whormholes.
I hope atleast those incoming holes arent there most of the time ..... otherwise it would mean that we are forced out of the hole and what should we do than? Yeah.... not much.
I am pretty upset right now.... not a good patch for me.... ruined my day. |
Bramson
Ishukone Research Services
2
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Posted - 2014.08.27 17:15:00 -
[345] - Quote
already talks of adding additional frigate wormholes from nullses->W-space and Hsec->W-space.
W-space the new super highway.
Going to be used more than a loose prostitute.  |
SyntaxPD
PowerDucks
PowerDucks Alliance
23
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Posted - 2014.08.27 17:19:00 -
[346] - Quote
this is what nearly all c3s look like since update:
http://s17.postimg.org/u94fuhrsf/2014_08_27_16_30_27.png |
Naglerr
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
16
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Posted - 2014.08.27 17:32:00 -
[347] - Quote
Holy crap. And to think I was upset because the C2 I was in had 5 connections. Absolutely unreal. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
774
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Posted - 2014.08.27 17:43:00 -
[348] - Quote
lol I didn't think these were too bad, but the experiences of today and seeing other people's experiences has changed my mind... withholding judgement til I've had more time to see how it works out but given the events of today I'm very less than positive. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
157
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Posted - 2014.08.27 17:50:00 -
[349] - Quote
Even if you put a scout on each I can't imagine being able to keep track of all of the coming and going. |
Argyle Wynter
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
0
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:01:00 -
[350] - Quote
Not sure how comparable they are to the statistics of other groups.
We live in a C2.
For those that are interested, here are our WH statistics:
Besides our two statics, we have had an additional 16 in holes in the last 24 hours
Two frigate holes, 6 High Sec holes, the rest were J-space to J-space.
For several hours last night we were getting a new GÇ£inGÇ¥ hole every 40-60 min.
In the last 24 hours, we estimate that we had a 4+ hour window were there was no frigate hole (none of our folks were on during that time frame though). The rest of the time there has been a frigate hole.
We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole  GÇô so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.
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SyntaxPD
PowerDucks
PowerDucks Alliance
23
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:07:00 -
[351] - Quote
Cant call it good or bad yet. It's high attention to w-space due to update.
As a wh-players, we'll adopt to theese changes once post-update interest calms down a bit.
There's an obvious thing: W-space is now officially more connected than k-space, you cant have 9 gates in k-space system. |
Pathas
All Your Holes Are Belong To Us
CriticaI Mass
0
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:26:00 -
[352] - Quote
It's fairly easy to tell if this was a good or bad move - just look at WH prices.
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SyntaxPD
PowerDucks
PowerDucks Alliance
23
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:34:00 -
[353] - Quote
Pathas wrote:It's fairly easy to tell if this was a good or bad move - just look at WH prices.
i'll look at nanoribbons prices after a while  |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
27
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:43:00 -
[354] - Quote
Pathas wrote:It's fairly easy to tell if this was a good or bad move - just look at WH prices.
That's not necessarily the case, there is both supply and demand. Less people generally in W-space will also lead to lower demand. |
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises
77
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:50:00 -
[355] - Quote
Since you deleted the ISD "Real Feedback thread" may I state again:
We didn't want it.
We still don't want it.
And now you are just insulting us!
What is the purpose of these threads if you don't LISTEN!!! |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
75
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:58:00 -
[356] - Quote
Argyle Wynter wrote:We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole GÇô so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.
That is a very interesting dynamic. I hadn't expected it, but perhaps cloaked ships camping them is a way to turn these troll holes to our advantage? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
776
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Posted - 2014.08.27 19:00:00 -
[357] - Quote
Argyle Wynter wrote:We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole GÇô so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.
We had a hilarious but also sad situation earlier which I was alluding to above - someone scouted a battleship fleet backed up with a carrier down the chain so we mobilised a fleet only to work out that any route of getting to them meant trying to get through a frigate only hole at some point :( we had a good laugh but it was also a pretty **** situation. |
Experiment 32423
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2014.08.27 19:22:00 -
[358] - Quote
Endo Riftbreaker wrote:I'd like to echo the comments made by others about the negative impact to small/solo corps. The addition of so many new holes has made scanning and op sec a basic non-starter for any small group. I logged in yesterday, took one look at the 6 holes connecting to my system, the 5 holes connected to my static, and logged off.
The holes now are like swiss cheese, with each one having 5+ connections and 5 more connections in the hole you jump into. It feels like null-sec with a system that has 6 gates and no local! There's not a chance anyone in their right mind would take the risk to run some sites in this environment.
The feeling/lore of being lost/isoluated in W space is complete gone, it's just one giant interconnected parking lot now, with no one running anything and everyone POS'd up because you can't roll even 1 of the 6 connections you have.
For me, I'm a solo corp, I'll be running down my fuel reserves and then moving out of J space, and possibly leaving the game. WH's were the last place a solo operator could "claim" and defend/homestead a system, enjoy some PvP hunting/being hunted and make decent income. But I'm not here to be cannon fodder to the 150 people my home system is connected to on any given day, and I doubt many other low class WH inhabitants are either.
I agree with this.
All in all, I'm in favour of increasing risk and destroying the old C4 risk-free farming environment. That being said, a large part of the wormhole population consists of small corporations who simply do not have the resources to deal with 5-6 connections at a time, especially considering that these groups have a considerably harder time collapsing holes than the larger corporations.
The main problem with this change is, that control is being replaced with randomness. It does not create compelling game-play and it certainly isn't rewarding. I would have much rather seen changes that bring more players into wormholes to fill all the empty space and increase the chances of random connections connecting active holes. Smaller groups would be able to control 1-3 active holes while keeping the risk-factor in its place, but manageable.
As an example, how do you think corporation A with 20 members, out of which maybe 10 are online, will react when they see 5-6 connections? That's right, they'll log off or POS spin - and you can't even blame them.
In conclusion, we don't need more random holes, we need changes that bring people into wormholes, such as C1/C2 income being completely out of balance when compared to risk-free activities in certain other parts of space. Pushing small corps out of wormholes will only drastically lower the population even further, and that is the last thing we need. I mean, has it ever occurred to anybody that running a C2 site is about as profitable as a L4 mission, in what is probably the highest-risk class? No number of random connections will increase PvP when every lower-class wormhole is empty. |
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
14
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Posted - 2014.08.27 19:24:00 -
[359] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Argyle Wynter wrote:We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole GÇô so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic. We had a hilarious but also sad situation earlier which I was alluding to above - someone scouted a battleship fleet backed up with a carrier down the chain so we mobilised a fleet only to work out that any route of getting to them meant trying to get through a frigate only hole at some point :( we had a good laugh but it was also a pretty **** situation.
you should leave inside scan alt and later pop that loot piniata
btw found c1 hs static had 13 frig holes 5 wandering to other holes 1 connection to low the hs static and three to nullsec
quite damn way too much connections and wormholes are more null way now |
Jez Amatin
Enso Corp
7
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Posted - 2014.08.27 20:14:00 -
[360] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Argyle Wynter wrote:We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole GÇô so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic. We had a hilarious but also sad situation earlier which I was alluding to above - someone scouted a battleship fleet backed up with a carrier down the chain so we mobilised a fleet only to work out that any route of getting to them meant trying to get through a frigate only hole at some point :( we had a good laugh but it was also a pretty **** situation.
That is also the scenario i was getting at. In w-space, it helps neither hunter nor hunted. It is just a novelty which has no tangible connection with wormhole pvp meta. granted u can scan a route once u get a scout in, but the odds of you getting it are incredibly slim. especially when u factor in changes to rolling and mass-based wh spawning.
Make these k-space only and they might be at the very least mildly entertaining. Although i'm still not convinced they're anything but a futile change with no real insight into how these wh might influence both environments (as in both k & w space). |
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