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Himo Amasacia
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 13:54:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Himo Amasacia on 24/07/2006 13:59:51
Originally by: Semkhet Rells, I will tell this with kindness: there's a world out there where using T2 is normal, and where what T2 seems to be to you is what faction and officer gear is to us...
... and people new to the game and pvp probably cant use one bit of this 'wonderful' t2 stuff.
Hell I can't use a single t2 weapon and I'm in the game over a year. (Not that I particularly want to. T1 weapons serve me just fine, wont take me months to train for and are not such an utter ***** to fit.)
So.. this class is for noo people. You know. New. New? Look it up in the dictionary?
Quote: Altought your massive numbers & cheap hardware can be effective in some circumstances, you obviously never where engaged by a disciplined veteran corp who would have decided to systematically destroy your forces. If the fact that you casually blow 1 or 2 HAC's here, and 1 or 2 battleships there by using up to 40 T1 frigs makes you feel like you have discovered the Graal of EVE's warfare, let it be so.
T2 gear gives you AT MOST a 20% damage boost over t1 weaponry. If you think that gives you a decisive i-win button when fighting a reasonably well lead gang you are sadly mistaken. If did goonfleet would have failed months ago. And yes despite what you might say economicly they would be ahead.
To a poster above.. Using superiour numbers is not lag tactics. A frig can lock up a cruiser in under 3 seconds and after that the dampers can kick in. People can blame lag all they want, but I was in a 60-70 ship fleet battle last week and I had zip problems with lag. And btw I use a dialup conection.
Besides lag effects everyone. So everyone would be in the same boat. Ergo there would be no advantage toeither side (In fact it might be a disadvantage to frigs as they could not change direction which would cut down the manuvering they need to survive.)
In conclusion. ctrl-shirt-alt - e & t, shrift + ctrl f12. Lag solved.
Good louck with the course nells. I'l see if I can make it to the august course myself.
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Khavi Vetali
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Posted - 2006.07.24 19:33:00 -
[32]
Just curious, does Agony Unleashed have a killboard? I looked around and wasn't able find one. I would like to know how well you actually do, cause all I see on the boards are bragging posts and adverts. I haven't run into a group of yeh yet, but my corp mates have since you tend to take yer classes to our playground, and if that's any indication. .
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Raskijan Vetali
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Posted - 2006.07.24 19:33:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Raskijan Vetali on 24/07/2006 19:34:05 Yay for preset fields.
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Choran
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:00:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Khavi Vetali Edited by: Khavi Vetali on 24/07/2006 19:39:11 Just curious, does Agony Unleashed have a killboard? I looked around and wasn't able find one.
I would like to know how well you actually do, cause all I see on the boards are bragging posts and adverts. I haven't run into a group of yeh yet, but my corp mates have since you tend to take yer classes to our playground, and if that's any indication. .
We have our own private killboard. Our policy for our members is to not post to public killboards because we don't want to give any intel to our enemies such as you :)
However, if you look around you'll find some Agony kill mails posted on a popular killboard from a few months ago before we instituted the policy. Of course we can't keep our students from posting the mails so you may find some current ones, but we prefer them not to.
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Sosus Red
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 22:21:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Khavi Vetali Edited by: Khavi Vetali on 24/07/2006 19:39:11 , and if that's any indication. .
I recall meeting up with tyler james on a couple of occasions, I thnk I lost a cheap frigate once and the other time he ended up losing his much more more expensive ship.
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Semkhet
KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.07.25 00:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Himo Amasacia So.. this class is for noo people. You know. New. New? Look it up in the dictionary?
You completely missed the point. I like what Rells does. The problem is that he presents T1 noob warfare using numbers like the ultimate PvP machinery, when the only thing who allows this to work is the use of remote sensor dampers and ECM. Take that out of the picture, and not even 40 frigs would pwn any decent BS pilot since he would blow these frigs at popcorn rate.
Originally by: Himo Amasacia T2 gear gives you AT MOST a 20% damage boost over t1 weaponry. If you think that gives you a decisive i-win button when fighting a reasonably well lead gang you are sadly mistaken. If did goonfleet would have failed months ago. And yes despite what you might say economicly they would be ahead.
Bull***t. 20% ? Train T2 weaps and all related skills, use T2 ammo, T2 damage mods + possibly T2 painters, plug the correct hardwires and you will see what you get as raw dps. Why do you think that single Deimos'es and Zealots can fry BS's (as long these don't fit NOS'es and/or nber tanks of course) ? Seems to me that you simply don't know what you are speaking about.
Gonfleet did'n fail because they know where not to step. Would they tickle the wrong guys, they would end being chronically popped as soon they undock. They may become a problem from the moment the majority of them uses T2.
Hell, would you have followed the tournament you would have noted that Goonfleet performance was a pure joke. They even managed to pop their own pilots ! And these are the best they can field ?
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Zzryxt
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Posted - 2006.07.25 01:44:00 -
[37]
I don't see where Rells claim his tactics to be the ultimate pvp. Unlike you, i don't think he's confusing the tournament with what the 'real world' pvp is like. There's many forms, from pirating, gate camping, small group gank, etc. I doubt you'll find very many around who will equate the tournament to actual pvp which you seem to be implying with the goons. It was just a show on who can field the best configuration given the set parameters w/ extra billions of isk of gear.
I think what Rells is trying to show with this class is that, hey, you new guys or non-pvp carebears, want to learn how to fight in groups, using cheap items and low combat sp? The use of EW is the only outlet for this type of combat and most of ships that they take down are people who are unaware of this tactic or over confident.
If you read through his statements, he never claims that he'll win by how many times he killed a bs/hac/etc but by comparing their kill ration based on isk worth. If he losses 5 frigates but take down a battleship, they consider that a win.
Again, there are different ways to pvp in Eve, this is theirs and i don't believe he's claiming anything more than that. Well, they claim 5million, but hey, even banks charge transaction fees and you're giving them your money.
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Himo Amasacia
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.25 03:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Himo Amasacia So.. this class is for noo people. You know. New. New? Look it up in the dictionary?
You completely missed the point. I like what Rells does. The problem is that he presents T1 noob warfare using numbers like the ultimate PvP machinery, when the only thing who allows this to work is the use of remote sensor dampers and ECM. Take that out of the picture, and not even 40 frigs would pwn any decent BS pilot since he would blow these frigs at popcorn rate.
Which is why he put them into the equasion as a way people new to pvp can compete, one presumes..
Originally by: Himo Amasacia T2 gear gives you AT MOST a 20% damage boost over t1 weaponry. If you think that gives you a decisive i-win button when fighting a reasonably well lead gang you are sadly mistaken. If did goonfleet would have failed months ago. And yes despite what you might say economicly they would be ahead.
Bull***t. 20% ? Train T2 weaps and all related skills, use T2 ammo, T2 damage mods + possibly T2 painters, plug the correct hardwires and you will see what you get as raw dps. Why do you think that single Deimos'es and Zealots can fry BS's (as long these don't fit NOS'es and/or nber tanks of course) ? Seems to me that you simply don't know what you are speaking about.
Wrong actually, I've done the calculations, factoring out the gunnery skills that are needed to use the guns to get to the raw benefits. Thast the number. Yes I could have spend 3 months training up to use super blasters, but instead I trained up gall cruiser 5, frig 5, Production efficiancy 5, tanking skills, Social skills, Battleship to 5, ability to use mining barges, covert ops... etc etc. Stuff I use on a daily basis and I an very pleased to have done so. Remmeber that t2 ammo was only introduced 2 or 3 months ago, due to people whining that they were getting prawned by people using t1 equipment. And even then they howled becasuse of the effect on the ships the ammo generated.
And yeah I've met one of those marauding Zealots you mentioned. I was in a Dominix. By the time the fight was finished He was down to 1/3 armour, and I can tell that my T2 eqipment really helped me in the fight. Yes I will always treasure the effect my T2 Mining lasers had on him.. When he was finished off by the brutix that arived 2 seconds too late my corp mate said that all he had to do was mop him up.
DPS is not everything, if it was the minmatar would be losing every fight they get into.
In short I will without question train up the support skills for my gunnery, no worries. Those are well worth doing, and those are the real secret behind the power of t2 guns. I wont bother with the extra 60 odd days training to use the t2 gear, as I think I can find some other stuff to occupy my time.
(And btw the specialisation skills wont effect your officer guns either! LOL)
I think this off topic discussion has gone on long enough. I wont be replying to any more replies on this tread. Be well all
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Rells
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:00:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Himo Amasacia So.. this class is for noo people. You know. New. New? Look it up in the dictionary?
You completely missed the point. I like what Rells does. The problem is that he presents T1 noob warfare using numbers like the ultimate PvP machinery, when the only thing who allows this to work is the use of remote sensor dampers and ECM. Take that out of the picture, and not even 40 frigs would pwn any decent BS pilot since he would blow these frigs at popcorn rate.
First of all, your statement is ludicrous in the extreme. Its like a soldier sayign to another soldier "ya but the only reason you win is because you use bullets .. take them out of the equation and our artillery will pwn you." Which basically means it boils down to smack talk.
However, that aside a moment. If you had say 20 frigs and one well piloted, well fitted BS and none of the frigs used ewar, they would still win. If you dont know why then you need to take the class yourself. The only BS that would be dangerous in this situation would be a Dominix, but even that can be handled if the pilots are well trained. I will leave it as an exercise to you to figure out why both things are true.
However, you can fit up a BS to take on frig gangs and assuming the frig gang leader is so daft as to leave his EWAR at home, you would win. If he doesnt you will be turned into a spectator. This is called tactics and fighting with your brain andevery single PVP Basic graduate knows how to do it.
Scary isnt it?
BTW the August 6th class is full but there is one for the 12th scheduled.
◄ PvP University: Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:03:00 -
[40]
Quote: If he doesnt you will be turned into a spectator. This is called tactics and fighting with your brain andevery single PVP Basic graduate knows how to do it.
Knows how to what? Blob? Are you still honestly teaching people stuff they can easily learn on the sticky threads, calling it your own, and then labeling "blob as a group, we can take out BSes" as a new tactic?
♥ It's so cute too, because you are going to respond with something witty and clever, or might not because I've called you on it, about anything that will make what you teach seem more complicated and important than it really is.
Here is a free peice of advance, Rells. Next time you are in a fight, have all your rookies press alt+F4 to activate the game genie code of invulnerability, 99 bullets, and cow mode. It roxors and it's a tactic!!!!z0mg1 ---------
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Rells
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:19:00 -
[41]
I didnt miss you.
AGONY stands on our reputation. We have had over 400 students and not one dissatisfied. Ask our students what they thought. Go to the enrollment threads and ask them. Check the previous posts by said students in this forum and ask them. That is all I need to say.
We fill class after class to capacity because we give our students value for their money and they go tell their corps that they should sign up as well and they do.
Thanks for the bump but our reputation pwns your flames.
◄ PvP University: Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:25:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 28/07/2006 18:30:44 edit: You won't listen anyway. I'll shorten it for you.
Think what you are teaching makes any real difference? Bring your next class to my area. Bring the entire class. Let's see what 20-30 frigates are going to do against a real threat, not single individual fights of 20v1or2. A real battle. Because until they experience a real fight, they won't understand that what you've taught them isn't going to keep them alive when their 20 frigates and crusiers are under focused fire from 15-20 battleships and battlecruisers. ---------
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Vladimir Norkoff
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:40:00 -
[43]
Quote: what you've taught them isn't going to keep them alive when their 20 frigates and crusiers are under focused fire from 15-20 battleships and battlecruisers
So basically what you're saying is "My 20 BSs and BCs can pwn their 20 Frigs".. Ummm..... yeah.. Your point being?
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:43:00 -
[44]
Quote: So basically what you're saying is "My 20 BSs and BCs can pwn their 20 Frigs".. Ummm..... yeah.. Your point being?
My point being that there isn't a point to what he teaches, and charges, when people can read it for free.
Bigger ships combined with more numbers is a general win button. Granted horrible commanding from the op leader can ruin that outcome but that isn't what he is teaching. I know Rell's school won't engage us. Why? They won't win against a force that large. It goes back to elementary math, for god's sake. His 20 frigates against 1 BS isn't a tactic, it isn't a Seasame Street lesson for us all, it's free and obvious information.
2 > 1 (unless 1 has a +5 dagger against even numbers) ---------
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Roshun Gudaul
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:43:00 -
[45]
20 battleships can kill 20 frigs? No way! O_O
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 18:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Roshun Gudaul 20 battleships can kill 20 frigs? No way! O_O
z0mg the secret is out!!!!11 I demand you pay me 10 million ISK for that information. I'll charge you another 2m to tell you that if I only have one ECM and you bring twenty ECMs, you won't ever fail a jam. wowz0rs! ---------
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Roshun Gudaul
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Posted - 2006.07.28 19:00:00 -
[47]
The price tag is 5 million to present and put into context many of the basics that will help you get into the PvP world.. And have fun while doing it.. Sure you can look up and read most of the information, but a hands on approach sinks the info in better..
It's not supposed to instantly turn you into a z0mg 1337 p33 v33 p33 master.. It's for new players that would like the information to start them on the road to becoming said pvper if they want to..
A lot of people before taking the class are scared to even enter 0.0.. If nothing else, the class makes them comfortable with doing so :X
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 19:03:00 -
[48]
Quote: And have fun while doing it.. Sure you can look up and read most of the information, but a hands on approach sinks the info in better..
I agree 100%. Come to anyone in NOCTS or our alliance and we won't have any problem training people first hand for free.
There is -no- reason to pay for information that everyone else on the forums, and in game, will gladly show you for free. It's common for NOCTs to sit in the same system as their victims after the engagement and distribute advice, ideas, tactics, setup philosophy, and generally help them improve based on what we witnessed.
Information should be free, not charged for just because it comes in fancy wrapping paper. ---------
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 19:24:00 -
[49]
If people want to pay, let them.
I am pretty sure they can make up their minds themselves whether they want to do that or not.
Or do you honestly suggest that you care so much for the poor souls that subscribe to Rells' classes, that you want to "help" them by redirecting them to forum posts?
Some people learn best from hands-on practice.
If you don't like Rells, go and pod-kill him, and his recruits, but whining about his school on these forums is more like trolling than anything else.
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 19:31:00 -
[50]
Quote: Some people learn best from hands-on practice.
Already agreed to this. Next time, before you post, read the entire thread. This isn't an issue of valid information, but that he charges people for free information that hordes of players are already teaching for free. ---------
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Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.07.28 20:17:00 -
[51]
I think we can all tell who the troll is in this thread
Both July 29th and August 6th classes are closed. Thread updated for August 12th PVP-BASIC class.
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 20:21:00 -
[52]
Quote: I think we can all tell who the troll is in this thread
I found him!! ---------
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xeom
Obsidian Sins
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:13:00 -
[53]
Agree with everything malka says.PVP classes are a rip off.
heres xeoms guide to PVP!
1:Grab a ship of you're choice(depends on you're wallet size) 2.Head into low-sec 3.Get killed 4.Get a new ship 5.Learn from past mistakes,kill and be killed
It worked very well for me.
CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? | Join[..SIN] |
Vladimir Norkoff
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Posted - 2006.07.29 02:17:00 -
[54]
... Right... I believe the class is more geared towards carebears that are timid about charging into PvP.. Attacking in a mob vs a solo BS gives them the illusion of safety, an inclination of tactics, and reasonable guarantee that they are not joining up with a bunch of idiots that will gank them at the earliest opportunity.. I absolutely agree that everything that players need to know about PvP has been posted a million times already.. However that still does not get many players over their insipid fear of unpredictable combat.. And that seems to be what this class is meant to do.. Furthermore, while there maybe other people out there that would happily train for free, I think that most carebears feel more secure paying somebody.. Once again, the illusion of safety and a sense of guarantee.. Given a choice between Agony Unleashed or Malkia(sp?), most folks are going to go with AU - no offense, but they seem more trustable.. Personally, I probably wouldn't spend 5 mil on a class like this unless I was really bored and had far too much ISK - and even then it wouold probably just be to make contacts/recruit.. But for some people the class obviously works.. Rip-off? To some extent yes.. But for some, paying 5 mil to have somebody hold their hand is worth it.. More power to 'em I guess..
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Santiago Cortes
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Posted - 2006.07.29 03:01:00 -
[55]
*Thread Cleaned*
Please donŠt expand the discussion to the relative merits of the class or respond to obvious trolls.
forum rules | mailto:mods@ |
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Zarta Blastaphart
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.31 20:20:00 -
[56]
Their is still room in the PVP-BASIC - Saturday, August 12th, 2006 - 1800 Eve Time class.
Regards Zarta
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vile56
RillaCorp
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Posted - 2006.07.31 22:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 28/07/2006 18:30:44 edit: You won't listen anyway. I'll shorten it for you.
Think what you are teaching makes any real difference? Bring your next class to my area. Bring the entire class. Let's see what 20-30 frigates are going to do against a real threat, not single individual fights of 20v1or2. A real battle. Because until they experience a real fight, they won't understand that what you've taught them isn't going to keep them alive when their 20 frigates and crusiers are under focused fire from 15-20 battleships and battlecruisers.
isnt it u who always backs away from 1v1's ?
since u have nothing to prove.
a pre aranged fight aginst 20 people who u know will be flying frigates is basicly what this will be, u will set up completly aginst there fleet and thats what u seem to be aginst.
just a thought
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.31 22:49:00 -
[58]
Have fun on during your lesson and the hunt guys, you're gonna like it [;)] ----
nothing to see here, move along nicely now, is that a pink dread out there. aaww you just missed it -eris It's not an Eidolon with 5 Basic Miner's on it, that's for certain.(FF04) ~kieron No love for me? :'( - Wrangler If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Cuddles Eeyore. He's soooo cute and doesn't play EVE. perfect -eris Eve-online Forum mods arn't Pokemon, you don't need to collect them all - Ductoris Here's my autograph - now do I get some groupie lub? Jacques' Don't be greedy :P -Capsicum ORLY - O |
Terrak2
The Black Fleet Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.01 03:31:00 -
[59]
Happy blobbi- I mean learning.
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Ezok Lyrad
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.01 09:59:00 -
[60]
This class may be fun but the description of time needed for the class was very under described during enrollment. 3 hours are needed just to get organized then there is training and then the hunting time for targets. Except to be in the class from 6 to 8 or more hours. For me I was very disappointed that I did not get to hunt any. I allotted 3.5 hours for this course, I had no idea that so much more time would be needed. I do not only play EvE I also live in the Real World. 3 hours was a long session to me and a 6 to 8 hour session seems absurd. I am sure some of you out there will disagree and you spend your whole day playing EvE. I would not have committed to the class if it clearly stated a realistic time, perhaps you at Agony should update and plainly state the real time the class might last. Anyways I am not saying the class was bad the instructors had it together and very organized it was just this time factor for me. Well I am repeating myself now thanx for reading.
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