Let the market sort it all out. Just because the ABC ores are not worth the most doesn't mean there is anything wrong. The changes to refining means mineral value is not the best indication of value.

Let the market sort it all out. Just because the ABC ores are not worth the most doesn't mean there is anything wrong. The changes to refining means mineral value is not the best indication of value.

Welcome to the free market.

People have over supplied the market for the highends, and undersupplied the lowends.

So the lowends are worth more than you'd have thought they were.

With bluefests, eyes on incoming traffic to your area in null, bubbles, etc its actually safer to mine in nullsec than other regions of space. This results in more people mining for longer periods of time there which means that the ABC ores will deflate to less than some of the other ores.

So im sure lots of you have noticed how the 2 highest end minerals are next to worthless. Ark is on the bottom of the list and bist is in the middle.

Something needs to be done as the rarest ores arnt worth **** anymore. Nocx is worth more than zydrine.

What are some ideas on what to do?

I had a personal suggestion of trippling the zydrine and mega amount used in capital components. Mind you im a big builder of capitals so this would effect me in production, but it would also make nullsec ore worth somthing again.

mine dark ochre if nocxium is worth the most?

Current changes have shaken the market a fair bit, once it settles the balance may be fine. However, I do not believe this is the case. I see several significant factors, that add up to a major change in supply of ores. Supply of low ends over all has dropped over all, while supply of high ends has remained steady, or even increased. Why?

-- Mining barges recently received a nerf. CC saw that Retrievers and Mackinaws were significantly more popular than the other mining ships. they were just to good for semi AFK mining. the large ore hold was enough of an advantage that the small increase in yield over the Coventor and HULK was not worth the drop in ore hold capacity, at least not for the majority of high sec miners. So CCP nerfed the yield of the mining ships creating a larger gap. Even if after this nerf, we had the exact same number of miners out mining for the exact same amounts of time, we would still see a significant drop in supply based only on the reduction of the mining yield of those ships. Once you factor in some quitting due to a drop in profitability, we have a notable drop in supply from high sec miners.

-- We have a change in null sec politics, there has been a significant increase in rental systems, as several null sec entities take advantage of rental income they never bothered with before. It is a fact that Null sec miners do not bother with low end ores, so with the increase in rental systems out in null. We have many former high sec miners, moving out to null, switching from mining low ends in high sec, to mining high ends in null sec. This not only causes a reduction in the supply of low end minerals, but increases the supply of high end minerals.

--We also have an impact from the reprocessing changes, and nerf to mineral compression. It is now more profitable to compress low end ores, and ship them out to null sec for reprocessing. This has further reduced the supply of low end minerals in high sec.

These factors on there own do not have a significant impact, but with them all happening at the same time , it has added up to a fairly significant shift. So what can be done to offset this shift in balance between high end and low end ores?

If anything I would say give the low end mineral content of the high end ores another little bump.

Adding significant low end minerals to A,B,C, ores rather than the trace amounts they had before, helped a lot, but maybe, with additional recent changes, it is now not enough. bumping it up a little more could be the right solution. I believe it would accomplish two things.

First of all, it will mean that whenever the price of low end minerals spikes, the high end ores will benefit from that spike as well keeping them on top, value wise.

Secondly, adding even more low end minerals to the high end ores will slightly increase the supply of low end minerals in null sec from the locally mined A,B,C,s reducing demand for low end minerals being imported from high sec by a small amount. The more the low end mineral content is increased, the more it will shift the balance.

For some time now I have seen low sec ores having the highest value, and I believe it should stay that way. After all, mining in low sec is far more dangerous than mining is sov null where most of the the A,B,C,s are found. however, we should not see the value of low end, high sec ores, exceed that of the high end, A,B,C, ores. This is a sign that the balance needs some tweeking.

The problem with this has and always will be the fact that the lowsec ores are in very low supply in lowsec. Its next to impossible to mine a decent amount since lowsec is far more dangerous than highsec or nullsec to mine in. And all the lowsec minerals come from nullsec.

As it is the highends have such a pityfully low usage, In one mining op we can mine enough zydrine and megacyte for a supercarrier, let alone well over 12 carriers. I still think a increase to capital usage of zydrine and megacyte would see less of those minerals shipping to empire, creating less of them there and then raising the price. But forthe second highest tier mineral to be worth less than the 3rd is just silly. I started playing right before drone poo nerf happened and i have been watching these prices spiral down, while yes some lowends like trit and pyer went up nocx skyrocketed recently.

As for those quoting nullsec politics, they havnt changed in around 6 months so i dont see how that would have a major effect now. Yes the compression changes did effect it but when i was compressing supers and titans of minerals in jita i was still using a pitifull amount of zydrine and megacyte.. There really needs to be more of a sink for those 2 minerals, mining is allready one of the lowest paid professions but its starting to get far worse.

I disagree with the concept of artificial price fixing just to keep Arkanor the most valuable ore. Let the market do its thing. Why is it a problem that it is not always the most valuable ore?

The null-sec renters who go, "Ooh shiny Arkanor!" are currently over-supplying those minerals. But they are happy doing it. (Proof that they are happy: they haven't stopped!) Smarter miners can open up a spreadsheet and figure out what they should be mining today.

If CCP keeps fiddling with the mineral content of asteroids to keep the prices matching the alphabetical order, doesn't that take away the last little bit of thinking that miners need to do? Why make the game even more boring for them?

Who is forcing you to mine only in the anomalies in upgraded systems? There are 1000 sov nullsec systems with 0 industry index. Some of them are probably owned by your friends. The low sec ores spawn in even poor truesec nullsec. Then there are always the options of moving your mining operation into a wormhole or into low sec or even back into high sec. Sure, that is more dangerous than mining in your own system, but more risk, more reward.

"But I'm paying a lot of isk every month to rent this system." Well, maybe take a couple weeks to learn to fly a battlecruiser and rat for your isk? It will almost certainly pay better.

"But I want to mine, and I want to do it in nullsec." Then I submit that you really are happy doing what you are doing and just want more isk out of it. Accept the fact that when many people do an activity, there will be a great deal of competition and the payout will be low.

Sorry I have little sympathy for renters. I was one once.

If CCP added more minerals to Arkanor without changing anything else, then all it would do would be to increase the supply of those minerals. Increased supply means lower price. And the average income of all the miners in the cluser would stay about the same.

What CCP could do to make null-sec miners' lives more interesting is to make the new anomaly spawn when the previous one has only been 50% mined out. You would be able to cherry pick the best ore again, and let the ones which are not worth your time despawn.

Who is forcing you to mine only in the anomalies in upgraded systems? There are 1000 sov nullsec systems with 0 industry index. Some of them are probably owned by your friends. The low sec ores spawn in even poor truesec nullsec. Then there are always the options of moving your mining operation into a wormhole or into low sec or even back into high sec. Sure, that is more dangerous than mining in your own system, but more risk, more reward.

"But I'm paying a lot of isk every month to rent this system." Well, maybe take a couple weeks to learn to fly a battlecruiser and rat for your isk? It will almost certainly pay better.

"But I want to mine, and I want to do it in nullsec." Then I submit that you really are happy doing what you are doing and just want more isk out of it. Accept the fact that when many people do an activity, there will be a great deal of competition and the payout will be low.

Sorry I have little sympathy for renters. I was one once.

If CCP added more minerals to Arkanor without changing anything else, then all it would do would be to increase the supply of those minerals. Increased supply means lower price. And the average income of all the miners in the cluser would stay about the same.

What CCP could do to make null-sec miners' lives more interesting is to make the new anomaly spawn when the previous one has only been 50% mined out. You would be able to cherry pick the best ore again, and let the ones which are not worth your time despawn.

I can see why you couldnt even cut it a s a renter.
So your solution to counter the lower income from the nullsec ore is to go mine in the regular belts, where the rocks are alot smaller, so less isk/hour, warping from belt to belt, you cant mine while warping so less isk/hour or even better, moving from system to system with mining fleets, and guess what, you cant mine while moving either, so less isk/hour.
Maybe even setting up a pos in those other systems, waiting an hour for it to anchor/online. Yeah that sounds like a really good solution.

I think you never mined a rock, in your live, or never been in nullsec, or maybe both.

The crash of high-end minerals doesn't affect miners' income as long as they know how to calculate and find out the most lucrative ore to mine

Sources please.
Actual cubage in a null belt.
Number of belts in a single system.

Then do the same for high sec.

Then look at the ratio that the belt ores need to be higher than the anom ores to turn a profit over the anoms regardless.

The most impactful reason that high end minerals are plummeting right now is because of the nerf to compression.

A huge portion of all minerals are consumed by supercap builders in nullsec. When they can't reliably get supplies of low end minerals (compressed ore!), their production line stops. This, in turn, reduces the demand for all minerals. High-ends are being hit the hardest because they're still being supplied at a constant rate from null at the same or better efficiency as before (due to the refining changes)- especially compared to the low ends that are now largely refined at "bad" stations in high sec.

It's unclear how long this will last. If high sec miners start compressing more ore and selling the compressed ore, demand might pick up again.

I'm personally in favor of CCP redistributing the spawns from null industrial upgrade sites, although this might be overkill once highsec realizes to sell their ore compressed.

Well i didnt make the statement that mining smaller rocks, and moving from belt to belt is more profitable then mining large rocks and staying in the same place. I already know you dont make any isk while warping, moving mining fleets to other systems or even other regions like Shoogie suggested.
If either you or Shoogie think it is, maybe you should get the numbers before making such statements.

No, you are the one claiming that despite the ore in the belts being more valuable, the smaller rock size and the warp times will make less profit anyway. So the onus is on you to prove what numbers actually are.
Not on me to prove that time spent mining more valuable ore is.... more valuable.

Since if you aren't AFK mining you don't get affected by the rock size since you use scanners and finish cycles early.

Well the way the tiers of the minerals work the megacyte and zydrine should cost more than the previous tiers.

We already have. If the ore in the belts is more valuable, then mine it. It's pretty simple from our point of view.
You are the one claiming other factors make that choice non-viable, so back up your claims.

Thats not proof, that's you just saying something so. If you say the ore in the belts is more valuable to mine, we need some numbers, how much of that valuable ore is in the belts, how long does it take you to mine mine it compared to mining ore in anomalies
Backup your claim with some tests and numbers, we'll even wait till you train some mining skills.

You could run massive goon mining ops to clear constelations of ore. But then you would be in danger of creating content.

Exactly, this problem wasn't created by itself nor CCP latest involvement in mineral composition in ores, This arm race between coalitions of manufacturing armadas of supers and titans are the one that makes problem.

So im sure lots of you have noticed how the 2 highest end minerals are next to worthless. Ark is on the bottom of the list and bist is in the middle.

Yeah, of course the players are at fault here! Dumb players, why did they invent supers and titans, players should never have been allowed to implement them into Eve!!!

Seriously, if supers and titans were actually balanced instead of "the one with the most wins automatically", this problem wouldn't exist.

http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
Since you appear unable to calculate exactly how valuable each ore is.
It's pretty simple. If it's worth more, mine it.
It doesn't matter if there is only a few hours worth of mining per system for your multibox mining fleet. You still make more profit for those few hours AND increase the value of your high ends since more low ends mined means more high ends that can be used at the same time.
So.... Mine it.

You however are arguing that despite the ore being more valuable it's not worth your time to mine it because it doesn't infinitely respawn. My maths is fairly simple, and doesn't need any magic proof. You simply mine the most valuable ores available to you till they go away, then you mine the next ones.
You are the one trying to make a complicated argument involving amount of ore & warp time.

Incidentally, I have mining skills, I have reprocessing skills, and I do mining & industry. So I do know what I'm talking about. You however.... seem not to.

So what ? Lay the blame where it belongs, in Null, with all those who bitched to CCP that they couldn't make ISK on high ends.

So the amounts in ores were changed, and the market got *FLOODED*.

Funny that.

The separation of ores may have made sense once upon a time when nullsec was dangerous and logistics were nightmarish, but now that we have the big blue donut and jump freighters to get stuff to Jita with minimal fuss, the ore distribution makes no sense at all.

It is interesting that people who wet their pants at the very thought of entering 0.0 are so eager to convince everyone else it's safe. I realize that it's probably because they want to pretend they're not wetting their pants at the thought of risk, but just 'choose not to live in 0.0', but you'd think their brain would realize there's a conflict there at some point.

Lowsec is more exciting, but it's hard to make ISK there. Hisec is where you go to make the ISKies. (And that makes sense lore-wise. Money follows safety and robust commerce.)

It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.

It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.

Other than you know, the superior null sec static belts also. With all the low ends and the mid low sec ores which are the most profitable thrown in for good measure.

It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.

Saying "leave it as it is because I'm making a profit and this is the best change ever made to Eve" is not a valid argument. It is not reasonable for all of nullsec to be fed by a spergy clickfest of 12+ freighter alts with titan support.

Edit: This is even further compounded when taking into consideration rorqual boosts vs orca boosts in high sec. If you have an equal number of equally skilled players mining in Null and High Sec, the high end minerals will be supplied at a much higher rate than the low end minerals (compared to their demand from t1 production).

What are some ideas on what to do?

Risk? I would argue that right now, there is probably more risk for a miner in a 0.6 system where there is unconstrained free movement for those wishing to take out said miner's ship than there is in most null systems that are locked down by the power blocs.

Indeed, why on earth are those blocs not muscling in on those 0.6 and 0.5 systems, clearing out the existing miners there either by ganking or wardecs and controlling access to the belts for their own use. That would be a better solution for Eve than CPP messing around with the mechanics.

Risk? I would argue that right now, there is probably more risk for a miner in a 0.6 system where there is unconstrained free movement for those wishing to take out said miner's ship than there is in most null systems that are locked down by the power blocs.

Indeed, why on earth are those blocs not muscling in on those 0.6 and 0.5 systems, clearing out the existing miners there either by ganking or wardecs and controlling access to the belts for their own use. That would be a better solution for Eve than CPP messing around with the mechanics.

Hisec mining is the best ISK/hr mining gig there is, especially with the recent changes to POS anchoring (no more standings requirements) and the introduction of the compression array (you can haul in a Miasmos instead of needing a freighter). Veldspar is still the best ISK/hr ore to mine, and it's abundant all over hisec space.

The CFC doesn't mine because it is full of whiners who only want to shoot stuff by pressing F1 mindlessly. Instead of solving their own problem by recruiting miners and industrialists from high sec, they come to the forums and cry to CCP about changing the game to work around their lack of ability.

Mine whatever makes you the most ISK/hr?

T-

People keep saying that hisec mining is the best ISK/hr and that veldspar is the most profitable. Have any of you actually done the math?

People keep saying that hisec mining is the best ISK/hr and that veldspar is the most profitable. Have any of you actually done the math? Every other ore except omber is more valuable than veldspar.

So im sure lots of you have noticed how the 2 highest end minerals are next to worthless. Ark is on the bottom of the list and bist is in the middle.

Something needs to be done as the rarest ores arnt worth **** anymore. Nocx is worth more than zydrine.

What are some ideas on what to do?

I had a personal suggestion of trippling the zydrine and mega amount used in capital components. Mind you im a big builder of capitals so this would effect me in production, but it would also make nullsec ore worth somthing again.

Fix the sov mechanic so that we actually have bigger wars out in null. ABC prices are only low because there are no big battles, so no big need for hardcore T2 production.

Low ABC prices are a symptom. Treat the cause, which is the blue doughnut preventing ships from asploding.

Actually what you're trying to say is 'fix battleships, so nullsec uses them again' because the t2 doctrines used now use negligible amounts of high-ends. Nobody uses massed battlecruisers or battleships anymore (except the CFC with baltecs, but we don't lose those). Fleets of t2 or t3 ships getting welped don't matter until someone busts out a marauder doctrine. But really you'd want to incentivize massive capital fights again as those burn minerals like nobody's business. But those don't happen because supercaps.

Even so, that would not fix the ratio issue because if you managed to get t1 production high enough to make high-ends not glutted you'd have ran out of trit long ago.

Thank you for validating all of my previous comments about many highsec miners being bad at math.

Try actually running the numbers on isk/m3 on the highsec ores. Isogen is more valuable than Tritanium, but Omber absolutely sucks because it has a low portion of isogen compared to how much m3 it weighs. Do yourself a favor and download Dedaf's Industrial Tool listed in the S&I thread.

The most isk per hour for a highsec miner is to land at a belt and mine out everything except omber (preferably with a hauler and a booster). If you're solo mining, then cherry picking the Pyroxeres/Kernite/Scordite is the best income per hour (if it's at the belt you have access to).

Or better yet, train up perfect refining, buy the raw ore newbies blindly drop in the market, refine it and sell it back refined.

Better ISK without the risk of a suicide gank.

These prices pulled from Eve Central a few minutes ago. These are all Jita top buy prices. Obviously, prices will vary with time and the market you are actually in. Also, the prices for Kernite and Omber may be skewed somewhat. Those ores do not normally appear in Caldari space and someone who hauled them to Jita will expect to be paid for that work.

Minerals:
Tritanium: 5.25
Pyerite: 10.85
Mexallon: 57.70
Isogen: 124.00
Nocxium: 675.46

Raw Ores:
Veldspar: 18.19 (that is, 181.90 isk/m3)
Scordite: 31.62 (210.80 isk/m3)
Pyroxeres: 64.25 (214.17 isk/m3)
Plagioclase: 74.03 (211.51 isk/m3)
Omber: 80.04 (133.40 isk/m3)
Kernite: 260.48 (217.07 isk/m3)

Compressed Ores:
Compressed Veldspar: 2200.00
Compressed Scordite: 3500.00
Compressed Pyroxeres: 7599.99
Compressed Plagioclase: 9000.00
Compressed Omber: 9002.41
Compressed Kernite: 29578.35


Assuming perfect skills, implant, and 50% NPC station:

100 units of raw Veldspar could be sold for 1819.00 isk. Refining it turns it into 300.46 tritanium. (I kept the fraction because in reality you are going to refine your whole stack at once and not individual batches.) The value of the tritanium is 1577.42 isk. (13.3% loss) Compressing it increases the value to 2200 (20.9% profit)

100 Scordite = 3162.00 isk. Refined =250.504 trit, 125.252 pyer = 2674.13 isk (15.4% loss) Compressed = 3500.00 isk (10.6% profit)

100 Pyroxeres = 6425.00 isk. Refined = 254.124 trit, 18.1 pyer, 36.2 mex, 3.62 nocx = 6064.44 isk (5.6% loss) Compressed = 7599.99 isk (18.3% profit)

100 Plagioclase = 7403.00 isk. Refined = 77.468 trit, 154.212 pyer, 77.468 mex = 6549.81 isk (11.5% loss) Compressed = 9000.00 isk (21.6% profit)

100 Omber = 8004.00 isk. Refined = 61.54 trit, 24.616 pyer, 61.54 iso = 8221.13 isk (2.7% profit) Compressed = 9002.41 isk (12.5% profit)

100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)

I'm pretty sure there's a 15+ page thread on how compressed ore is more valuable than refining it, as well as refining the ore actually loses value.

As of a few days ago:

I guess this is what I get for posting on a mining thread as someone who doesn't mine. Actually looking at the market myself, I was definitely wrong.

It's because of exactly what I (& others) predicted would happen and we got laughed at and told it never would.
Null Sec gets 20% more minerals out of the same amount of ore than Highsec (16% if we count a POS, but they have upkeep, an Outpost adds no upkeep to the already paid sov bill for the system).
Meaning Null Sec can quite simply strangle high sec by pricing them out of the market on ore.

However, there are still vast mineral stockpiles which account for most of the minerals currently on sale and more in the pool, which are now 'stuck' in highsec because Null doesn't want to take the loss (66% return btw, not 50% for Null also, unless I've gone crazy) compressing them via modules anymore. So those minerals suddenly have lower demand, only being of value to local producers, but will eventually run out, which will then result in a very sudden spike of mineral prices after the ore market has been strangled by Null for so long.

It's basic economics to predict these kind of effects, and it's also very basic economics to deal with things like ABC ores having a low value.

However, there are still vast mineral stockpiles which account for most of the minerals currently on sale and more in the pool, which are now 'stuck' in highsec because Null doesn't want to take the loss (66% return btw, not 50% for Null also, unless I've gone crazy) compressing them via modules anymore.

Scrap metal refines are the same everywhere. Facility efficiency doesn't factor into it. The max scrap refine you get is 55% (where the extra 5% comes from having Scrap Metal Reprocessing trained to 5.)

Cheers, I was under the impression it came from the base facility. Not being in Null atm, I didn't have any way to check that one.

It seems like you have lot of input on items related to nullsec when you don't even have real access to nullsec.

Been there in the past, it was a sucky experience overall, lots of tedium, inability to farm at lower skills, lots of do what you are told. And everything I've seen says that has gotten worse since I was there, not better. I'm sure you will say it's not like that for Goons, and you might be right for your alliance.

However the mere fact that I don't live in Nullsec right now as part of one of the two great coalitions does not mean I have no clue about things, nor does it mean I have no input of value to what the future of Nullsec should look like.

But hey, attack the messenger is much easier than actually answering the argument that all the ore you need is right there in your systems already, and if it's not enough and you can't import from high sec, you can always take some ore from your neighbours static belts instead. That's Null Sec working as designed.

Since you keep going back to nullsec belts, I have to at least point out that your scan of a nullsec belt is not representative of all belts in nullsec.

Example: Belts in -0.7 and -0.8 in deklein tend to have 10-13 rocks of each of the following: crokite, ochre, hedbergite, hemorphite, jaspet, mercoxit, pyroxeres, scordite, spodumain, and veldspar. Notably absent are gneiss and plagioclase, two of the most desirable ores for people short on mexallon. Add to that the fact that the 'higher end' ore rocks are larger than the lower end rocks (for example: a crokite rock is on average ~4 times larger by volume than a veldspar or kernite rock), and the relative balance of each belt still isn't looking too great though it's probably still better than the ratios in an ore anomaly.

Cheers, I was under the impression it came from the base facility. Not being in Null atm, I didn't have any way to check that one.

Actually, that indicates that my scan was fairly typical. Since the only 'High End anomaly' rocks in that belt are Crokite & Spod. And Crokite is currently in demand value wise. As the most valuable ore other than Mercoxit.
Heb, Ochre, Hem & Jaspet all have good value returns also. Unlike A & B.
And assuming you are right that Gneiss & Plag are missing, chances are that because they don't spawn in Gurista's space in static belts.
Not because they don't spawn in Null. Go to other area's of Null and you will see your missing Gneiss & Plag.

For reference
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Asteroid_belts
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Locations_of_ore_and_ice_in_space

Since you keep going back to nullsec belts, I have to at least point out that your scan of a nullsec belt is not representative of all belts in nullsec.

Example: Belts in -0.7 and -0.8 in deklein tend to have 10-13 rocks of each of the following: crokite, ochre, hedbergite, hemorphite, jaspet, mercoxit, pyroxeres, scordite, spodumain, and veldspar. Notably absent are gneiss and plagioclase, two of the most desirable ores for people short on mexallon. Add to that the fact that the 'higher end' ore rocks are larger than the lower end rocks (for example: a crokite rock is on average ~4 times larger by volume than a veldspar or kernite rock), and the relative balance of each belt still isn't looking too great though it's probably still better than the ratios in an ore anomaly.

Crokite is full of Zydrine, if you want to keep crashing the already over supplied zydrine market, mine Crokite.
The most valuable ore atm is Hedbergite, and is hardly present in the nullsec belts. Something you would know if you were actually doing any mining in nullsec.

Mine in low sec - it is easy - you get all the mins you need.

Mine in low sec - it is easy - you get all the mins you need.

Hi, can you link or list what is actually in one of the belts as an average? Noting the number of asteroids does not represent the amount of ore present, I am interested in the general composition of asteroids in a representative belt and with your access to deklein that should be very easy. An ore scan of the entire belt or simply a section. with a total count of asteroids by type would be great.

Mine in low sec - it is easy - you get all the mins you need.

Mining in belts is the absolute worst thing you can do in lowsec and nullsec. It works in highsec because people can largely mine completely afk with the only threat being suicide gankers (which you can't stop). You cannot do that in null or lowsec.

But if you listen to people that have said themselves that they don't live in null, they'll tell you that null belts are the best and are where you should be

Except Belts in Null Sec are identical to Industrial Anoms.

As much as I relish hearing goon whine my tear buckets are full


Anyone who counts asteroids to determine belt composition is a, well, I can't say without getting banned, but suffice it to say, what you say after that has ZERO meaning


We told CCP Fozzie at EvE vegas last year that Mex was way out of proportion to everything else, he sneered and said he didn't think it would matter and he would monitor it

fast forward to now, they added Nocx, pyerite and mex to ABC ore's (Yes, I know some were increased, some were added)

That still leaves the OVERALL ratio of everything to mex and somewhat Isogen very skewed, plus the ratio of tritanium is horrid

I mean, sure nullsec has to supply Morphite, Megacyte and Zydrine, I get that, but right now hey are being supplied in a manner that far exceeds the ability to supply Pyerite and trit in nullsec



tl:dr Mexallon is still out of sync with everything else, wether it gets increased in arkornor further or pyro, kernite, plagio or a bit in all of them.

Either way, the ratio of Mexallon mined to Mexallon used in production is out of sync

I don't understand why it would be a crisis, you can always just mine something else.

I don't understand why it would be a crisis, you can always just mine something else.

That is the exact argument we've been behind the entire time, you had to wait until now to reaffirm that?

I would add that it is too easy to get zyd/mega and that a flat nerf to the availability of high ends would help as well.

You literally have no clue what you are talking about, this is absolutely incorrect.

But please, continue telling us about how to live in nullsec based on your vast experience there.

Furthermore, the anoms are not just for people mining ABC. I know many miners (and myself) that mine out the mex ores so they can build things but what do you do when it's all gone? You need to flip the belt to refresh the supply of mex ores you really want and then you end up with a bunch of ores you don't need or want ie. zydrine and megacyte. Hence, an oversupply of high ends greater than the demand.

Thats what you get for cherry picking. Mine the rest. Compress it. Ship it to hisec.

Yeah this is not good as ABC are meant to be more worth your while, moving in upgrading space dealing with threats etc so that you are able to mine them should be worth it.

2 solutions to this and yes it is a problem albeit an unwanted side effect of for the most part great industry changes.

Increase the amount of high ends required to make Items..

Give us more mex so we can use the high ends to make things in nullsec

I'm talking about the universal balance of minerals ie the whole market % ratios of demand for whats needed drives market prices, imo they are skewed wrong many mineral issues have been fixed in null i can get what i need to make things except Mexallon.

The value of the rares should remain high to keep nullsec a good pull away from lowsec thats whats going wrong here. Don't argue you have mineral issues you are supposed to only get high sec ores in high,lowsec. Nullsec gets all ores for good reason, to drive player driven content

Well you are entitled to your opinion too

That's an officially stated CCP Dev statement that no area of space should be able to be independent.
Not just my Opinion.

Welcome to the free market.

People have over supplied the market for the highends, and undersupplied the lowends.

So the lowends are worth more than you'd have thought they were.

That's why you bother mining out all the low & mid ores in Null Sec static belts to balance your ratio's... Oh wait you don't!
Also no area of space is meant to be independent. So if you get more Mex, what are you giving to high sec to keep the interdependencies going.

This. It's not CCP's job to regulate the market. That is why they have been systematically eliminating NPC supplied goods over the years.

I'm talking about the universal balance of minerals...

Is it CCP's job to supply the correct 'roids for you to mine then ? Or just lower the materials in some of the rocks, just so people can make more money ? (or, more likely, start moaning because now there's not enough of it and it's too expensive)

Is it CCP's job to supply the correct 'roids for you to mine then ? Or just lower the materials in some of the rocks, just so people can make more money ? (or, more likely, start moaning because now there's not enough of it and it's too expensive)

It's pretty hilarious to see these GrrGoon comments, especially considering we've already established in this thread that there is a supply issue.

The current supply of minerals is not balanced, and here's why:

Before Crius
-Mineral supply was still slightly imbalanced (too many high end minerals readily available). The "missing minerals" in null were supplied via compression of modules, which is why there wasn't an issue.

After Crius
-One source of minerals was reduced by 50% (modules)
-All ore in high sec now produces fewer minerals- meaning that the supply of low end minerals was reduced (because no longer able to get "100%" refine in high sec)
-Perfect refine in nullsec now gets slightly more minerals from ore than it did pre-Crius
-Changes to compression have reduced or eliminated the possibility to fill the gap to meet demands

You can see the effect of these supply issues in the price of zyd/mega. In nullsec, we don't have the option to just "mine something else"- suggesting to mine in the static belts is completely ignorant and is only being suggested by people that have never actually lived in nullsec.

Don't worry- mineral supply will be changed here in the next few months- I've already called the hundreds of Goons that work at CCP and they're working on a fix.

It's pretty hilarious to see these GrrGoon comments, especially considering we've already established in this thread that there is a supply issue.

The current supply of minerals is not balanced, and here's why:

Before Crius
-Mineral supply was still slightly imbalanced (too many high end minerals readily available). The "missing minerals" in null were supplied via compression of modules, which is why there wasn't an issue.

After Crius
-One source of minerals was reduced by 50% (modules)
-All ore in high sec now produces fewer minerals- meaning that the supply of low end minerals was reduced (because no longer able to get "100%" refine in high sec)
-Perfect refine in nullsec now gets slightly more minerals from ore than it did pre-Crius
-Changes to compression have reduced or eliminated the possibility to fill the gap to meet demands

You can see the effect of these supply issues in the price of zyd/mega. In nullsec, we don't have the option to just "mine something else"- suggesting to mine in the static belts is completely ignorant and is only being suggested by people that have never actually lived in nullsec.

Don't worry- mineral supply will be changed here in the next few months- I've already called the hundreds of Goons that work at CCP and they're working on a fix.

CCP can only do so much though - they can't stop people from mining, as much as they can't stop people from ganking. The only way it'll balance out is when the players sort it out.

CCP can only do so much though - they can't stop people from mining, as much as they can't stop people from ganking. The only way it'll balance out is when the players sort it out.

angry GrrGoons comments

angry GrrGoons comments

that sounds like a good assumption to base game balance on, now back to mining in highsec, alone

that sounds like a good assumption to base game balance on, now back to mining in highsec, alone

The new "100%" is in upgraded refineries in null. Comparatively the supply of low ends has dropped as opposed to high ends. Thank you for pointing out that we're now getting 20% more high end minerals than pre-Crius, further supporting the issue here that the current mineral supply is out of balance. Also, if you think the majority of highsec miners are refining their ore at "highsec 100%" after Crius, I'd bet you're sorely mistaken.

Please stop suggesting mining in static belts. That is the Worst Idea (tm) and won't ever actually happen. Again, if you had ever bothered to actually try it, you'd understand why. All rocks present in static belts are present in anoms; except the static belt rocks pop in 1-2 cycles, and cherry picking the mex heavy rocks would net less income than doing anything else in Eve. You might as well start suggesting that ore you mine is free, because that would be less ridiculous than suggesting to mine in static belts in null.

The new "100%" is in upgraded refineries in null. Comparatively the supply of low ends has dropped as opposed to high ends. Thank you for pointing out that we're now getting 20% more high end minerals than pre-Crius, further supporting the issue here that the current mineral supply is out of balance. Also, if you think the majority of highsec miners are refining their ore at "highsec 100%" after Crius, I'd bet you're sorely mistaken.

Please stop suggesting mining in static belts. That is the Worst Idea (tm) and won't ever actually happen. Again, if you had ever bothered to actually try it, you'd understand why. All rocks present in static belts are present in anoms; except the static belt rocks pop in 1-2 cycles, and cherry picking the mex heavy rocks would net less income than doing anything else in Eve. You might as well start suggesting that ore you mine is free, because that would be less ridiculous than suggesting to mine in static belts in null.

The point i was trying to make which i think you are all going way off the mark on is that we are talking about mining in a null security space where you are very vulnerable to attack.

There are systems and ores in place to pay this venture well for good reason and it isn't working currently so its not going as planned is it now? get it into the brain boys

The point i was trying to make which i think you are all going way off the mark on is that we are talking about mining in a null security space where you are very vulnerable to attack.

There are systems and ores in place to pay this venture well for good reason and it isn't working currently so its not going as planned is it now? get it into the brain boys

And the fact that cherry picking the static belts would not net less income

And the fact that cherry picking the static belts would not net less income

So you are vulnerable to attack so can't mine yet have mined so many high ends the market has crashed...
Sorry. Not buying it. Especially with the other posts in the thread.

This is not a game design issue. This is null sec being unable to adapt and not having made most industrialists welcome in null.

So you are vulnerable to attack so can't mine yet have mined so many high ends the market has crashed...
Sorry. Not buying it. Especially with the other posts in the thread.

This is not a game design issue. This is null sec being unable to adapt and not having made most industrialists welcome in null.

Please continue to tell us about mining in null belts, where you have literally zero experience and are completely incorrect.

Cherry picking rocks that expire in one or two cycles leads to spending considerable more time moving and re positioning than actually mining.

I can only ask something on the order of 10% to 50% more than I'd pay in jita.

or an ore counter on your strip miners so that you can turn it off at exactly the right second so you don't waste any valuable time.

1000 m3 of ore isn't a cubic kilometer.

Welcome to the free market.

People have over supplied the market for the highends, and undersupplied the lowends.

So the lowends are worth more than you'd have thought they were.

People keep saying that hisec mining is the best ISK/hr and that veldspar is the most profitable. Have any of you actually done the math? Every other ore except omber is more valuable than veldspar. If you're not a bad, you should park at a belt and just strip everything within range (except omber) for the most actual isk gained per played hour.

If you have a 100% perfect Hulk- all V's, t2 drones with 100% uptime, a 100% max orca booster and a hauler, you're making roughly 45 mil an hour mining pyroxeres (+10-20% if you sell compressed version). With that same hulk, veldspar is making roughly 36 mil an hour.

Just because "there is more" veldspar doesn't mean that it's more isk/hour- if you're cherry picking the veld and leaving everything else, you need to learn some math.




If only there were an in game mechanic to see the mining volume within a given system...hmmm

It's pretty clear that CCP doesn't understand that this imbalance is an actual issue stemming from ore anomalies, despite repetitive attempts to have them fix it.

Supply and demand has far less effect than CCP setting the mineral amounts for things. CCP have continually pushed up the value of low end minerals and pushed down the value of high ends since release through either changing mineral amounts or creating new things with the amounts out of whack.

Truth is ccp has either been incompetent in this regard for 10 years or it is deliberate policy. Either way pointing it out in this forum is perfectly valid.

There is a huge surplus of high end minerals from nullsec ore anomalies. The null ore anomalies are extremely top heavy and are short on low ends. Because there are tons of miners in null stripping ore anomalies, this imbalance in high end minerals is reflected in the market.

At this point in time, Omber is the least valuable ore followed by Spod/Arkonor.

It's pretty clear that CCP doesn't understand that this imbalance is an actual issue stemming from ore anomalies, despite repetitive attempts to have them fix it.

Let's see how long we can keep high end minerals in the gutter before CCP realizes they need to fix ore anomalies.

Fix:
-Reduce volume of high end ore in null anoms
-increase volume of low end ore in null anoms

or

-change sites to only spawn one or two types of ore at most
-sites spawn randomly and upon being mined out, spawns a new site of a random type
-site odds are based on a balanced distribution of ore rather than being top heavy

Mineral imbalance in null is still a very big issue and nullsec industry will never be prevalent as CCP wants it to be unless this is fixed.

So im sure lots of you have noticed how the 2 highest end minerals are next to worthless. Ark is on the bottom of the list and bist is in the middle.

Something needs to be done as the rarest ores arnt worth **** anymore. Nocx is worth more than zydrine.

What are some ideas on what to do?

I had a personal suggestion of trippling the zydrine and mega amount used in capital components. Mind you im a big builder of capitals so this would effect me in production, but it would also make nullsec ore worth somthing again.

If all that mattered was market forces, then all processing skills would have the same base training time. Furthermore, right in the descriptions of the ores for ABC it talks about their rarity, the same with Mercoxit. Finally, the invention costs and times for making ABC crystals also do not conform to equal market forces as they take longer to produce than veld, scord, etc. The system isn't reflecting how CCP envisioned it and it doesn't seem like "rebalancing" is having the intended effect.

But the skill system does not reflect free markets - it reflects a clear hierarchy of ore values determined by CCP. You can't claim free markets if all things are not generally equal and while EVE has a great market, much of it is centrally controlled by CCP's overall design decisions.

If all that mattered was market forces, then all processing skills would have the same base training time. Furthermore, right in the descriptions of the ores for ABC it talks about their rarity, the same with Mercoxit. Finally, the invention costs and times for making ABC crystals also do not conform to equal market forces as they take longer to produce than veld, scord, etc. The system isn't reflecting how CCP envisioned it and it doesn't seem like "rebalancing" is having the intended effect.

Perhaps a better system would be to set training times equal (Rank 3), allow all ores to spawn in all systems, and scale all ore spawn sizes to to increase from High to Low to Null sec. So nullsec would have the best ore access but because of sov bills and the cost of living in null, it fits greater risk = greater reward. Also, this way markets can determine the best ore to mine based on its refining rates instead of constantly mucking with the system to achieve some "balance" that players will mess up anyway.

I'm sure there are other ideas out there and I know people who mine in highsec will hate the idea that "null gets buffed again" but I think we can all agree something should be done.

Mineral imbalance in null is still a very big issue and nullsec industry will never be prevalent as CCP wants it to be unless this is fixed.

e followed by Spod/Arkonor.

It's pretty clear that CCP doesn't understand that this imbalance is an actual issue stemming from ore anomalies, despite repetitive attempts to have them fix it.

The best solution to low prices is low prices. Once people stop mining these ores the prices will increase.

Thank you for contributing to the thread while not comprehending any other post therein.


Mineral supply still is not fixed in null, starting to tally the months that it takes after Greyscale actually acknowledged that it needed to be looked at.

I'm just missing the part where your choice trumps everyone else's game experience? When I run the risk/reward assessment about parking my hulk in a belt in highsec, I have to live with the costs of either choice. (loss of ship -vs- lower yield) Why do you feel you get to keep your hulks out of belts entirely and yet still get the yields you want?

I don't know any other way to explain this to you, but mining in actual belts in nullsec will never happen except in order to level up the industry level, or unless CCP makes a significant change in null belts/anoms.

Even cherry picking static belts, anyone using more than one miner could net more low end minerals in an anom than at a static belt because of the significant time lost micromanaging lasers and moving through the belt. The problem still arises that there is significantly more supply of high end ore throughout null than can be possibly used, reflected in the price of high end minerals and excess stockpiles that people are just sitting on waiting for a change to happen.

CCP could simply lower the volume/size of the high end rocks in null, and that would go a long way towards fixing the imbalance. They really don't need to add anything, just make high ends more scarce so that belts can be cycled more frequently, thus netting overall more lows and less high ends.

The point is not the refusal to go into the belts. The point is that if you look at the numbers, going to the belt in null is always a significant net loss, especially if you have multiple miners. Until a major change is made by CCP, it will always be more efficient to strip out null anomalies and import missing minerals from high sec (or just not mine at all, since mining income is still abysmally low).

Null belts are still littered with high end ores, just like anomalies. So cherry picking the low end ores out of null belts still requires a ton of movement, switching rocks, etc. All of which takes time, which cuts your actual income down to a pittance per hour.

If the goal of CCP is to encourage localized nullsec production further, then they will need to make a change to null anomalies to provide some sort of better balance to the mineral supply in null.

When you say, "The point is not the refusal to go into the belts.", what you mean is "The point is not the refusal to go into the belts for purposes of avoiding risk." Because.... ya know... you're still refusing to go into the belts. You're just doing that because it's easier and more efficient to use the anomalies. (Larger rocks for the hulks to chew on, so less movement, etc.) The anomalies are *so* much better than the belts that they've rendered the belts unusable.

The only downside to using the anomalies and completely ignoring the belts is that the higher-end minerals are over-harvested, and null has no discipline to avoid destroying the market. (Which isn't an unrealistic situation.)

All of this makes sense. But this is Eve, and 'everything is pvp'. You're in-effect waging war against non-null miners not by shooting them, but by asking CCP to increase your effectiveness which will hurt their effectiveness. (ie, what you're asking for will have an impact in the market place beyond JUST the high-end minerals.) Also, what you're asking to change would remove the *only* downside to null anomaly mining, would it not? Isn't that similar to a highsec miner asking to have the hulk receive a skiff's tank & drone bonus? (all of the benefits, none of the drawbacks)

One last point: if null becomes too 'self sufficient', doesn't that remove the potential for content/conflict by removing supply lines?

If you put them in an asteroid belt, they each have to shoot different rocks, and depending on skills/boosts, may have to switch rocks every cycle. You have downtime targeting and switching rocks, moving to the new "cherry" rocks to pick, etc. Not to mention the cluster of clicking that is required to manually target, change crystals, etc- every cycle.

If anomalies didn't exist, mineral prices would be through the roof and all items would cost a hell of a lot more than they do now.

The changes suggested would rebalance the entire mineral market- normalizing supply to match the "rarity" of ores. All they really need to do is reduce the volume of high end minerals in null anomalies. Simply remove 2/3 of the m3 of high end ores from the null anoms. They could add that m3 back as veld. Or any other ore. Or not at all.

Thinking about it, they should remove 90% of the volume of high end ores out of null anoms. Anomalies could supply large amounts of low/mid ends, and high ends are exclusive to belts only (except for some high ends at the larger anoms). That would be a solution that would help individual (ninja) miners as well as large scale multibox miners- since it would be impossible to realistically strip asteroid belts without Broadcasting being legal after the 1st of the year.

Maybe im too newb to get the idea of whats going on, but, if youre short on x, why not mine x? Instead of telling ccp to change the anoms and belts

As an example, i have an indy alt, i use that alt to do a few different things, one of those things is mining. When i need zydrine, i mine jaspet, when i need isogen i mine kernite etc etc. when i need tritanium, like always, i mine some veldspar.

So i honestly dont really see the problem here.

Why not mine what you need?

Seems kinda dumb to mine the ever loving crap out of high end ores when the demand for the mineral volume you get out of these ores just isnt there. When supply outweighs demand, there will invariably be a decrease in price level of x product. Meaning less profitability, and, by extension, and increase in demand for lower end minerals that arent being mined.

I believe you should indeed mine what makes a profit, but with anomolies you dont have that option. You have to strip the intire anomolybelt for it to respawn
> you used to strip the belt completely to recycle the A B C's, and you mined out the lowends and stockpiled them
> now you have to mine the A B C to cycle the lowends again

So to get the good ore you mine the ones that are "uselss" and basicly, you end up with "wastage" highend minerals.

However you turn this, there will always be a bottleneck mineral. At this moment its not a mineral primarily found in the highend ore types...

Its in ccp's hands now, until they change demand/supply the highend mineral stockpiles will grow and grow...

The point is not the refusal to go into the belts. The point is that if you look at the numbers, going to the belt in null is always a significant net loss, especially if you have multiple miners.

Null belts are still littered with high end ores, just like anomalies. So cherry picking the low end ores out of null belts still requires a ton of movement, switching rocks, etc. All of which takes time, which cuts your actual income down to a pittance per hour.

prices will be f*** as long as minerals are only available in a fixed relation to each other. As long as people are forced to mine X in order to get Y, the price of X is going to be ****.

Ok, maybe the anoms need tweaking, idk. But, if youre trying to tell me that you cant get low ends cuz you wont mine the asteroid belts,,, im not following you at all haha. Null belts are huge and have everything, or atleast most of what you need. Sure, the rats are a pain, but im sure someone in those huge alliances has a combat alt that they can sit in a belt to pew red crosses when they show up.

The point is not the refusal to go into the belts. The point is that if you look at the numbers, going to the belt in null is always a significant net loss, especially if you have multiple miners. Until a major change is made by CCP, it will always be more efficient to strip out null anomalies and import missing minerals from high sec (or just not mine at all, since mining income is still abysmally low).

two miners are in a belt mining ore A. One miner says to the other "I can't beleive how much the price of ore A has dropped. Ore b is worth more then ore A now." Second miner looks at the first miner and says "ore B is worth more then ore A?"

"Yea, by a lot now. CCP needs to fix this immedialty, it's cutting into my profit!"

The second miner then truns off his strip tool on ore A, and then proceeds to mine ore B right next to it "Yea, CCP don't need to fix nothing, Im gonna do fine, you just keep on keeping on over there"

If the market is shifting, shift with it or die.

That would be true if Eve was a real sandbox and resources were equally distributed.....

The problem is that the game is designed so that everything in the game has it's rarity based on location.

However due to null-sec politics and anomaly mechanics you've now have a situation where what's supposed to be Ultra rare ores are being harvested almost non-stop by huge multi-boxed fleets with little or no harassment.

You've got insane amount of megacyte and mophite being mined to exhaustion every single day, so they'll respawn tomorrow.

There are currently 92 mil worth of sell orders for Mega up, but only 34 mil moved yesterday. To compare that to Trit where there are 8.4 bil sell orders up and 15.1 bil trit moved yesterday..... You can see there is WAY TO MUCH MEGA on the market and even more that people are just hording because the prices are so low.

Now you can say that the market will correct it self eventually.... which is true... but the problem is that the game is designed so that A,B,C ore is super ultra rare and that it's the pinnacle of what miners should be trying for, risking super dangerous space.... Not on AFK farm by fleets of 15 Rouq boosted hulks.


There are a lot of things that are to blame( ease of multiboxing, Sov null space, Mining Mechanics, Anomaly mechanics) but at the end of the day SOMETHING does need to be done. As currently one of the fundamental principles of the game( risk and reward) is just not true for one of the games core professions.

Please stop calling ABC's super rare. They are in most null sec system and all wh systems. purple loot is super rare ABC's aren't

Let me put it this way:

Mining in asteroid belts in null will never happen because it takes so much micromanagement that you could do any other activity in null and make at least double the income.

Or daytrip into a wormhole and make 100mil/hr or more in a venture mining gas there as a newer player.

Mining in null only happens in anomalies because you can (could) multibox large numbers of miners in an anomaly without having to break lock every cycle on each ship. Even after the nerf come the 1st, people will still be able to multibox in anomalies because they can shoot one rock to completely fill 27.5k m3- even manually clicking through each miner. Mining in belts after the ISBoxer nerf takes even a harder hit because you won't be able to broadcast lock or trigger your lasers.

Thus, mining in any belts (high sec or null) is going to get considerably harder, while mining in null anomalies will only get marginally more annoying.

The imbalance is only going to get worse after the ISBoxer nerf.