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Dixon	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:17:00 - [91] This graph shows that I am right and you asshats are wrong... stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and try to back your arguments up FFS! THE GRAPH OF TRUTH And don't try telling me omg but I was talking about the Megathron, because if you thought I was comparing Rails vs Projectile raw... then you haven't read my posts. I might add that there is no projectile gunship without this RoF bonus and to compare without it would be moronic at best. Originally by: Dixon The Rokh will use railguns. Railguns use lots of CAP. The Rokh has no damage bonus. Rails have crappy damage. The Rokh will use a sheild tank. Sheild tanks use lots of CAP. The Maelstrom uses Projectiles. Projectiles use no CAP. Projectiles with RoF bonus do more damage (with more versitile damage types also) than railguns. The Maelstrom will have a huge alpha and 100% cap to it's certain-to-be-great tank. The Maelstrom will be great at artys.. don't know about autocannons. But it will have a strong tank. The Rokh will probably outrange it but it will never outdamage it... Originally by: Jim McAsshat Naah, you started this argument that railguns have crappy damage, so you run some comparisons if you want to convince me Yeah, and like always before, you will stay convinced until the next time you feel like whining about things you know nothing about... Originally by: Ath Amon not really proj have poor dps, way lower than hybrids so proj + rof is more or less equal to rails OHRLY? why do you feel the need to post without knowing? Originally by: Kaylana Syi 425mm Rails have better DoT then 1400s. Sorry but there are too many graphs in this forum to prove you wrong. Search feature 4tw. You are wrong, I was right... btw Originally by: Kaylana Syi Please know what you are talking about before posting plz Hypocracy ftw? Originally by: SengH Pass the pipe please cus your smoking something good Shove that pipe up your ass.... Originally by: Nafri The 8 rails on the rokh outdamges the 8 howitzers on the mealstrom Proven wrong... Originally by: Nafri I guess your new, so I explain it for you: I've been playing for over 3 years I know how these things work. And that thing you wrote about damage bonuses was one of the dumbest posts ever to reach these forums. The turret systems are different in many ways that cannot be simplified into: Originally by: Nafri Lasers without ship bonus: 1 Hybrids without ship bonus: 1 Projectiles without ship bonus: 0 ... ? THE GRAPH AGAIN I declare victory over all you asshats with my mighty graph and demand plunder and women!!!
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:26:00 - [92] Give it 7 mids. And Add EW hardpoints, and give it one.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:31:00 - [93] i don't see your point... as everyone said they are pretty close 1400 + bonus is similar to 425mm no bonus is what everyone said here and your graph just show it so minmatar ships are using one of their bonuses to be near the dps of hybrid ships whitout bonuses.
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:37:00 - [94] 7 meds or you go to hell. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Dixon	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:39:00 - [95] Originally by: Ath Amon i don't see your point... as everyone said they are pretty close 1400 + bonus is similar to 425mm no bonus is what everyone said here and your graph just show it so minmatar ships are using one of their bonuses to be near the dps of hybrid ships whitout bonuses. No everyone said rails did more damage, I didn't read yours carefully enough however and for that I apologize. You were actually not wrong. Quote: The 8 rails on the rokh outdamges the 8 howitzers on the mealstrom Quote: 425mm Rails have better DoT then 1400s. Sorry but there are too many graphs in this forum to prove you wrong. Search feature 4tw Originally by: Ath Amon proj have poor dps, way lower than hybrids so proj + rof is more or less equal to rails Here is your quote, notice that yours is different because you actually made a clear distinction between the projectiles with and without rof. So you were right, but still underestimated projectiles a little... So apologies to Ath, finger pointing at the others...
Double TaP The Establishment	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:42:00 - [96] Edited by: Double TaP on 26/07/2006 16:43:40 Sure, as long as you slap another mid on the raven. The fact is that any shield tanking ship, albeit caldari or minmatar, needs more midslots. The game need not ever be balanced around PVE, even if 1 ship comes out better than the others in that department. PvP wise, all your active modules are midslots, so right off the bat you put a scrambler on which hurts your tank; then if you ever want to use siege missiles for anything ever you put on a target painter; no way you could ever be allowed to move around using an ab or mwd; how about a webber? -nahh no room. So like said, I think the Maelstrom should have seven midslots to make it useful and proper, but so should the raven.
SengH Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:46:00 - [97] your mighty graph is pretty retarded... why the **** would you have 2x tracking enhancers and 1x tracking comp on a ship that with SPIKE L already has an optimal of 216km WITHOUT any tracking modules. Fitting 1x tracking comp II gives you an optimal of 248.4 KM. You can fit 2 more damage mods if you want or up the tracking comps and up the damage. Since you said to discount T2 ammo. Go redo the graphs with Carb L and come back.
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:48:00 - [98] Originally by: SengH your mighty graph is pretty retarded... why the ** would you have 2x tracking enhancers and 1x tracking comp on a ship that with SPIKE L already has an optimal of 216km WITHOUT any tracking modules. Fitting 1x tracking comp II gives you an optimal of 248.4 KM. You can fit 2 more damage mods if you want or up the tracking comps and up the damage. Since you said to discount T2 ammo. Go redo the graphs with Carb L and come back. because he expects his fc to warp in gang at 250 just because it's him Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:48:00 - [99] 8/7/4-5 for both the Rohk and the Maelstrom.
Imperial Coercion	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:49:00 - [100] Originally by: Dixon Edited by: Dixon on 26/07/2006 16:40:13 This graph shows that I am right and you asshats are wrong... stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and try to back your arguments up FFS! Hey there. Does that graph count resistance? No? Then it doesnt represent the truth of damage given. Now log off and rethink your comeback.
Dixon	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Dixon Edited by: Dixon on 26/07/2006 16:40:13 This graph shows that I am right and you asshats are wrong... stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and try to back your arguments up FFS! Hey there. Does that graph count resistance? No? Then it doesnt represent the truth of damage given. Now log off and rethink your comeback. Wow, one bitter amarrian response here... This graph doesn't count resistance, I wasn't comparing resistance. I was comparing DPS (DAMAGE PER SECOND). But since you asked nicely I can tell you that spike does better against sheilds while tremor will do better against armor, now lets not go into numbers of armor tankers vs sheild tankers. Originally by: SengH your mighty graph is pretty retarded... why the **** would you have 2x tracking enhancers and 1x tracking comp on a ship that with SPIKE L already has an optimal of 216km WITHOUT any tracking modules. Fitting 1x tracking comp II gives you an optimal of 248.4 KM. You can fit 2 more damage mods if you want or up the tracking comps and up the damage. Since you said to discount T2 ammo. Go redo the graphs with Carb L and come back. Why can't you admit you were wrong? Carbonized lead does 20% more damage than iron charges (both are the long range t1 ammos), so yeah maelstrom does more damage with t1 also. btw: Tracking enhancers don't matter in dps comparison.
SengH Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.07.26 17:02:00 - [102] You dont get my point do you. At the range the tempest pilot is fitting carb L, you can easily be using a higher damage ammo. Ie you can use antimatter to hit at the same optimal as lead.
Dixon	Posted - 2006.07.26 17:22:00 - [103] Originally by: SengH You dont get my point do you. At the range the tempest pilot is fitting carb L, you can easily be using a higher damage ammo. Ie you can use antimatter to hit at the same optimal as lead. Yeah, now that's a good point. This is clearly one of the Rokh's strong points, it's able to use high damage ammo at longer ranges. True. But this still wasn't the debate, this you know. We were talking about DPS, I said the Maelstrom would out-damage the Rokh. That I have shown to be true. The Rokh will still be a kick-ass sniper, but it doesn't outclass the Maelstrom in every situation. And it does have shortcomings... Originally by: SengH I think the main problem is that the rohk has NO SHORTCOMMINGS in its design. Its a longrange railboat, tracking doesnt matter so that frees up mids. It has a resist bonus so it can passive tank decently and doesnt need to worry about tanking. It excells in its role where all the other BSes are pretty halfassed, theres something that can compete with it in that role. The rohk is alone in its fleet sniper platform. Now given the statistics I have shown wouldn't you agree this is a bit exaggerated? The Rokh will probably be a better long range sniper, that we can almost be sure of (remember we still know very little about these ships) but it's rails come with cap usage that the Maelstrom doesn't need to worrie about. The Maelstrom doesn't look like a crap ship IMO, it has better DPS than the tempest and will tank like a beast. Minmatar will have a great new fleet ship... why isn't that good enough?
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.07.26 17:33:00 - [104] not really in topic but want to spend 2 words for the Rokh personally i'm not that worried for the actual railrokh it can do good damage at around 100km but it's tank will suffer a lot, it will be easy to get at max range but the damage will not be probably overpowered (it also depends but fitting and slot allocation) the fear i have about that ship is that devs plan to "nerf" combat range... now if it will be done in a way to preserve the current stats (eg a reduction to max lock range) will be ok... if instead will be something like... let's cut range and faloff in half then there will be huge umbalancing problems for this ship as it will stand (by far) outside the turret range of every other ship making it outperform every fleet ship (possibly every "long range" fleet will be composed by them) another thing that was not mentioned is that yes this is a railboat but it can perform not bad even in a blaster config + void for high damage up to 15km or null for higher distance
SengH Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.07.26 17:42:00 - [105] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: SengH You dont get my point do you. At the range the tempest pilot is fitting carb L, you can easily be using a higher damage ammo. Ie you can use antimatter to hit at the same optimal as lead. Yeah, now that's a good point. This is clearly one of the Rokh's strong points, it's able to use high damage ammo at longer ranges. True. But this still wasn't the debate, this you know. We were talking about DPS, I said the Maelstrom would out-damage the Rokh. That I have shown to be true. The Rokh will still be a kick-ass sniper, but it doesn't outclass the Maelstrom in every situation. And it does have shortcomings... Originally by: SengH I think the main problem is that the rohk has NO SHORTCOMMINGS in its design. Its a longrange railboat, tracking doesnt matter so that frees up mids. It has a resist bonus so it can passive tank decently and doesnt need to worry about tanking. It excells in its role where all the other BSes are pretty halfassed, theres something that can compete with it in that role. The rohk is alone in its fleet sniper platform. Now given the statistics I have shown wouldn't you agree this is a bit exaggerated? The Rokh will probably be a better long range sniper, that we can almost be sure of (remember we still know very little about these ships) but it's rails come with cap usage that the Maelstrom doesn't need to worrie about. The Maelstrom doesn't look like a crap ship IMO, it has better DPS than the tempest and will tank like a beast. Minmatar will have a great new fleet ship... why isn't that good enough? The thing is trying to tank in fleet gets you killed. You want your agility as high as possible. Theve already said the mael "isnt going to be the most agile ship ever". Combined with to make use of your bonus, most likely you'll get 1-2 cycles off your booster before your dead. However for the rohk, you'll be applying your bonus the whole time your in shield. This can easily be extended using extenders giving you a larger buffer in which to get out. For fleet, this is an ideal ship. I dont think people comprehend how far exactly 250km is ingame terms. Its almost 25 seconds with a max speed gistii+snake set crow. For all of us poor guys who cant afford to fly gistii crows and snake sets into battle. At 4km/s it'll take over 60s to just reach the target and tackle it assuming they approach it directly (suicide). The rohk obsoletes every other fleet ship out there. A mega using spike to hit at 200+ km, you can do the same with just T1 iron AND without taking the tracking penalty. In the more average 120km ranges, with an extra trackign comp, it makes javelin viable. Whereas most other BSes would have to be right up in their face to use high damage t2 ammo.
DJ Markus	Posted - 2006.07.26 17:48:00 - [106] Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol Btw, 6 meds with a tanking bonus is pretty damn good dont get greedy. Indeed.
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2006.07.26 18:15:00 - [107] I would be cool with a 8/6/6 slot layour IF we get 8turrets 8 missiles and 125m¦ dronebay. otherwise I want a 8/8/4 just to show whiners to f*** off or make things worse :P
Mangus Thermopyle Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.07.26 20:19:00 - [108] Originally by: Severa Crest Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/07/2006 12:16:57 Originally by: Tiuwaz sarm got sunglasses /me starting new char to get respect. Edit: By the way, I wouldnt mind if the minnie had gotten the hyperion and the gallente had gotten the maelstrom. A fast, agile autocannon platform with a damage bonus... yummie. So i dont really see any reason to whine for the gallente. At all. I have to agree Jim, the Gallente get a fast and agile ship. We get a fat shield tanker (thats fat not phat). I seem to remember MWD cap bonuses are Minnie racial ( vindi + vigi). These Gallente fools are gonna stomp all over our crappy dps and now we're slower than them.... Disappointed to say the least Well, you would wine like madmans if you got a BS thats hardly better (and in many case worse) than one of the existing ones. But would it not be fun if Tuxford changed it, and gave you a tempest with 30km locking range, and we got a domi with shield boost bonus
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:12:00 - [109] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Amy Wang Originally by: nahtoh I do think 7 meds is pushing it, you already get a free boast amp with BS lvl5... Well, Rohk is getting a free invul. field, so whats your point again? Great so 7 mids for it as well then? After all someone may want to fit blasters on it. That work for you? I would me more than happy for the Rokh to get 7 mids so long as the Maelstrom gets the same. The Rokh is a giant Ferox, the Maelstrom a giant cyclone. Why are they allowed the same amount of midslots at the battlecruiser level but not at the battleship level? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:18:00 - [110] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Amy Wang Originally by: nahtoh I do think 7 meds is pushing it, you already get a free boast amp with BS lvl5... Well, Rohk is getting a free invul. field, so whats your point again? Great so 7 mids for it as well then? After all someone may want to fit blasters on it. That work for you? I would me more than happy for the Rokh to get 7 mids so long as the Maelstrom gets the same. The Rokh is a giant Ferox, the Maelstrom a giant cyclone. Why are they allowed the same amount of midslots at the battlecruiser level but not at the battleship level? Maelstrom needs 7 medium slots to fulfill its purpose as a medium range shield tanking artillery boat. Ive written a post on page 2 in the "What should the Maelstrom bonuses have been" post. Check it out and comment. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:32:00 - [111] These topics are giving me a headache, stinkin bunch of speculating annoying bunch. Also, Rohk with rails? Don't even TRY to say that they have good damage with T2 Ammo. Rohk is a shield tanker, Javelin nerfs your shield HP, load 8 turrets and your little battleship now has the shield HP of a Caracal. Keep making tons of topics to say the same crap over and over, it's just so worth it. KILROCK'S GIRLY SIDE / WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
Kitty O'Shay Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.07.27 22:39:00 - [112] 8/6/5 You can have 8/7/5 when Tux fixed Khanid. I hold your mid-slot hostage until Khanid Mk II. -- [THARS] is recruiting 1 ebil pirate. Be the one!

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