I'm sorry, I can't hear you over my covert cyno activating.

Seriously though, if this were to happen then incursion income would need to be nerfed again to balance it all out.

Just go and shoot the people shooting the mom.

And all those bombers and blackops going POP.
Rats will aggo them , you have omni resist fleet on grid , including logistics.

Sorry , explain me what is wrong with putting more RISK to compensate REWARD you get from running incursion sites?

If CODE. can field enough low-ISK DPS to kill a freighter before CONCORD shows up, surely some incursionbears can field enough DPS to kill part of a logistics chain in that same amount of time, right?

After all, even shiny logi ships don't have the EHP of a freighter - especially if the scrams and weapons are prefired and the gank ships seboed.

Just a brief response to some of the points here

1. I stated pretty clearly already that the hotdrop would be on the way to the system or next door to it. The fact remains that no one is doing the 3 nullsec incursions right now, and the lowsec one is seeing very light activity. Objective reality always trumps theories.

No one runs them in lowsec because it would be crazy to have a 40 man battleship fleet in lowsec. You would be begging to get hotdropped and massacred.

2. Bribing/shooting people doing the MOM early - in addition to being very hard to pull off (incursion fleets shoot back, freighters don't), it's also wildly ineffective. Most people running incursions for a while can easily replace a lost ship.

Couple issues with that

1. Light a scram, pull all the aggro off everything else on field, except something with jams.
2. Then we add in speed and sig tanking, and the fact that only a truely stupid fleet stays on the beacons if there is a credible gank threat.
3. Now, consider that many communities run 100-150% more logistics ships on grid than are necessary if one only has the aggro from sansha to worry about and you see it isn't as simple as ganking a logi or two.
4. Destroying fleet discipline might work, and would be fairly simple if you knew when to time it and had an inside person.

Well then it seems clear that ganking in highsec incursions needs to be buffed in that case!


New proposal: systems with active incursions have CONCORD response delayed by 300%, and security loss for criminal actions is halved. Sanshas are attacking & suppressing concord too, obviously the police response will be ineffective in a warzone.

A lot of us enjoy the PvE content of incursions, and are not looking for PvP gank warfare. There is already ample opportunity for PvP in the game (low/null/wars). The question here is how to make the PvE content of incursions more available to the playerbase, and to prevent a few people from ruining it for everyone.

No, what you want is to stop other people from doing "your" activity without doing anything yourself.

If you cannot be bothered to go kill them then you have no right to complain.

No, what I'm trying to do is change a mechanic where a small group of players have the power to arbitrarily deny the ability to run incursions to everyone else in highsec.

They are doing exactly what is meant to happen, killing the mom. These things were not put into the game for you to farm away to your hearts content, if you don't want people killing the mom then go out there and kill them.

I don't think CCP wants there to be a situation where there are no highsec incursions available to run (note how they recently changed the respawn timer). Your solution, as already pointed out, would not ameliorate the problem.

Why is this a problem? Sounds like player freedom being exercised to me.

For months (and longer) highsec incursions have been plagued by people completing the Kundalini site early. This forces everyone to move and allows one group of players to deny everyone else the ability to run sites together. The natural solution is to extend the time period during which the mothership cannot be destroyed (because it has not yet spawned).

I suggest that in HIGHSEC, and only in HIGHSEC -

The Kundalini site should not spawn until the incursion goes into withdraw (or at the very least until it is deeply into mobolized). This will allow pilots to stay longer at a single incursion site, and will not give any one group the ability to close down incursions early (as nearly all groups have done at one time or another).

Sure it would. You kill them and they cant do it.

Can you inflict enough gank losses on a 40 man (or for a mom site 80 man) battleship fleet with 10+ logi on grid to actually deter doing mom sites? Absolutely not.

I don't think CCP wants there to be a situation where there are no highsec incursions available to run (note how they recently changed the respawn timer). Your solution, as already pointed out, would not ameliorate the problem.

[
Well then it seems clear that ganking in highsec incursions needs to be buffed in that case!

New proposal: systems with active incursions have CONCORD response delayed by 300%, and security loss for criminal actions is halved. Sanshas are attacking & suppressing concord too, obviously the police response will be ineffective in a warzone.

Have you tried? Didn't think so.

Gank every MOM fleet's logi as they undock, see if they still try to run the site.

Sure it would. You kill them and they cant do it.

It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)



It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.


Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.

It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)



It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.


Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.

OK in that case you should throw your support behind this proposal:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372423
so that you can wardec the opposing incursion runners without them being able to dodge.

It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)

It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.

Agree with all these points. Also the solution to any problem in highsec is not "suicide gank them." The game should be flexible enough to accommodate those looking to do PvP as well as those looking to do PvE.

Its in lowsec, decs are not needed.

Stop trying to make excuses for your lack of spine.

OK in that case you should throw your support behind this proposal:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372423
so that you can wardec the opposing incursion runners without them being able to dodge.