Veers Belvar sometimes I laugh so hard at your statements that I fall out of my chair.
You want CCP to step in and stop one group of players because they are ruining your gaming experience, yet the very presence of the incursion and you incursion ISK farmers is ruining the game play of an entirely different group of people. My dictionary defines this behavior as this hypocrisy. I will agree that as incursion farmers you do not have as many options as the locals do but that does not change the fact that many of your posts very hypocritical.


"Incursions are new player friendly. The base fittings are easily achievable by someone with 2-3 months in the game. "
And this one
"I often see new incursion runners in stripped down maelstroms and hyperions (total cost for hull + fit 300 mil or so). It's hardly some elitist activity like flying capital ships or something."
For many players in the 2-3 months age range 300 million ISK is an extremely large sum of ISK to gather, and those who do usually have much of it given to them, or they buy plexes for cash and then sell them for ISK. If you spent more time with these new players and less time in your ivory tower ISK farming Incursion fleets you might have understood this basic fact about the game.
Thinking back on all the hours I wasted waiting to be invited to a fleet I have to laugh at your assessment that incursions are new player friendly. There were very few FC"s willing to risk a new player into their fleets even when they are all skills 5 for BS or logi, I expect that there are even fewer still that would risk a low skills, low time in game new player.

"No, what I'm trying to do is change a mechanic where a small group of players have the power to arbitrarily deny the ability to run incursions to everyone else in highsec."
Put another way you do not want one small group of players to affect YOUR game play. Following this logic we should eliminate war decs because that is one small group affecting the game play of others. We should eliminate suicide ganking because that is another small group of people affecting the game play of others. I can go on on for days on this one but as others have said that is the nature of EVE get used to it.

"My OP was about suggestion to keep the mothership site from being taken down so quickly, and denying highsec players the ability to run incursions."
No you OP is about protecting a very small segment of the high sec player base and their ability to farm ridiculous amounts of ISK at the expense of all of the other players in the affected systems. If you really cared about getting others into incursions then you and all of the other "normal" group of incursions runners would gladly step aside and allow others to take your spots in the fleets. However based on my experiences and those of several dozen other players I know that have tried incursions this is not the case. Those that are in a fleet want to stay in so THEY can make the ISK and LP, they DO NOT want to step out and give someone else a chance.

Not sure what to say here...

1. Categorically false - I personally amassed 600 mil isk within 2 months without Plex or gifts. it's perfectly viable running L4 missions with buddies or mining in a barge. There are communities (like WTM) that specifically cater to new players, are more flexible with fits, and are definitely happy to work with newbros. There are other communities that are more choosy, but even most of them cater to new players. If anything the problem these communities face is lack of interest outside peak time zone. Almost none of them can run 23/7 because of lack of numbers. Another issue is that everyone goes to the same few established communities, and is unwilling to try out new communities, which leads the existing communities to get jammed, especially during peak times. I personally started running HQs at 2.5 months char age, and no one asked me what level my Minmitar Battleship was at ( for the record, it was at 3). But whatever, this is not relevant to my OP.

2. No, I don't want any one group of players to have the power to completely shut down highsec incursions. Just like I would object to shutting down all L4 missions, or shutting down all Ice Belts, or shutting down all highsec markets. No one group of people should be able to entirely remove highsec incursions from Eve, and deny everyone else the chance to run them.

3. Of course people in fleets don't want to voluntarily leave. Who wants to stop having fun and making isk? The solution is to form more incursion communities and make more fleets. The problem is that no one wants to run/FC, since it is a lot of work, and you face a deluge of criticism and complaints. If you think it is so easy, please step up.

Stop asking for a dev solution to a player-created problem which isn't really a problem.

This is again trying to force PvP on PvE players. I personally don't play Eve for PvP, I play it for PvE. I accept that suicide ganking is an important part of the game, and preventing it from happening to me is an important part of my playstyle. Other than that, and much like miners and mission runners, I'm looking to PvE. It would be like some group finding a way to make all mining or mission running impossible, and then telling the miners and mission runners to go wardecc them. That's not what they want to do - they want to mine and run missions, not fight PvP wars. Thankfully the mechanics of highsec are designed so that you can avoid that type of PvP by being in a 1-man or NPC Corp, and then happily live your PvE life. Since I fully support those mechanics, obviously I won't be supporting the nerf of such organizations.

What I will do is to advocate a solution, when, as now, a group of players has found a way to prevent everyone in highsec from engaging in incursion PvE, day after day, without real consequences. Much like no one can "turn off" L4 mission or mining, no one should be able to arbitrarily "turn off" all highsec incursions at will, just to spite everyone else. Because that is not what Eve is about.

No, I don't want any one group of players to have the power to completely shut down highsec incursions. Just like I would object to shutting down all L4 missions, or shutting down all Ice Belts, or shutting down all highsec markets. No one group of people should be able to entirely remove highsec incursions from Eve, and deny everyone else the chance to run them.

Then let's be clear on your statements in the first place:

YOU ARE ALREADY INVOLVED IN ONE TYPE OF PVP.

There are only so many of those sites per system, per incursion. What you do is deny others the ability to run the sites you are running and "compete" with them to get to those sites first.

That is a form of PvP just like "world bosses" being taken by "elite" groups in other PvE games - they prevent others from doing those bosses by taking them first - and that is why they first came up with "instances" for bosses in those games.

So someone else finds a boss and finishes it, stopping your farming of "trash around the boss" and you're hacked off about it?

Suck it up. That is their beating the encounter and nothing more.

You're already doing something similar to any others who might be interested in trying those sites while asking CCP to deny others from doing a larger target.

That is special treatment for just 1 "farming" style of play and very inappropriate "PvE wise" to ask after and support.

I too wish for OP to explain why there's a problem with players being able to affect each other in a sandbox game.

Unfortunately, I don't think he's ever going to do anything other than say "players shouldn't have the power to shut down other players' activities" without explaining why.

I've addressed that (repeatedly). There is no game mechanic available to shut down all highsec mission running, all highsec mining, all highsec hauling, all highsec trading, etc... Certainly not to shut it down for 12-36 hours with a few friends and a minimal amount of effort. Similarly, there should be no mechanic to shut down all incursions in highsec like that. Imagine if there was a site - "highsec trading embargo site" - that if you ran with 40 battleships would shut down the Eve Market for 24 hours. Would anyone thing that's a good idea?

There isn't any game mechanic because this is a sandbox. We don't rely on game mechanics to do things that player interaction can handle just as well (if not better). Players are the mechanic to shut down missioning, players are the mechanic that can, will and do shut down mining, players are the mechanic that shut down shipping, and players are the mechanic that shut down Incursions.

Why is that bad? Why shouldn't it be this way? You still have not answered.

Because to shut down missioning you have to go kill every single mission runner, ditto with mining, etc... With incursions if you complete 3 15 minute sites you shut down incursions in all of highsec for everyone. If you want to globally shut down incursions you should need to do the same thing you would for any activity, go and suicide gank all the active participants, etc....

Except that incursions are designed around being a place for higher skill players to showcase their skills, and their fits by winning. The contest mechanic being based around applied DPS and only rewarding one fleet supports my argument that it is MEANT as an E-Peen measuring stick. One part of such a showoffy, E-peen fueled gaming style is the ability to tableflip. This is the classical table flip as applied to EVE.

Shutting down incursions (which were intended to be mobile, and short lived originally) fits the lore, the intended mechanics and the mindset initially intended. All of the claims that a player should be able to run incursions in 2 months ignores that these characters are completely unready for a regular fleet, do miniscule damage and are generally a drain on a fleet. The lowest SP toons that I can really consider "ready" are m4 arty maelstroms with a full t2 fit, which clocks in around 7M SP.

incursions were not designed as a "kill the boss and move on" gameplay element - they were designed so that it was mutually beneficial for communities to keep the boss up for a reasonable amount of time and complete more sites.

Because to shut down missioning you have to go kill every single mission runner, ditto with mining, etc... With incursions if you complete 3 15 minute sites you shut down incursions in all of highsec for everyone. If you want to globally shut down incursions you should need to do the same thing you would for any activity, go and suicide gank all the active participants, etc....

Now, back to the question you keep dodging: why is it a problem that your gameplay can be affected by others in a Multiplayer PvP Sandbox game built around that core principle?

Not empty quoting.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Preparing_for_Incursions

I would be more than happy to have a 2 month char with this skillset in my fleet. By 3 months the guy is an absolute asset. Obviously if you train in an unfocused manner you are a liability. But as a guy who only focused on combat missions i was more than ready for incursions at 2.5 months (and indeed started to run them consistently with multiple communities).

you want a solution then i suggest you get yourself into a blackbird and join me and my blackbird/falcon fleet on the mom gate.

this is eve harden yourself up grow a pair of hairy nuts, get into a fleet with us and the many other pist off pilots who have had enough of those silly dress wearing sisssy in tvp and isn , and do something about it yourselves

ARE you all sheep, shouting to daddy to come fix this.... its not fair, or are you at the point where the time has come to stop this shite once and for all by doing something about it.


the bob (band of blackbirds) channel exists to co-ordinate mom fleet disruption operations.

You want this stopped? then get out your shiney ATM ships

the fleet will need pilots from all timezones and all skill levels.

get off this forum and into your ships. youll see me floating about in local. mail me for invite to channel.

you want a solution? there is your solution

thread closed

get on with it

Dev, can I (as OP) ask that this thread now be locked?

There is no further purpose to it. It's just devolved into whining

To be said that a thread has devolved, it would have had to not be whining to begin with.

He never did answer the question. I should have known not to expect much after DJ Auger featured him on the "Ragequit Theatre" portion of his EVE Radio broadcast a few weeks ago.

I already answered that (repeatedly). Do you have a link for this radio segment? I never "ragequit" from anything, but should be amusing nonetheless. No one contacted me btw, generally you do that as a fact-check, or to let the person respond. Just saying.

Perhaps you should send him an angry EVEmail about it.

I already answered that (repeatedly). Do you have a link for this radio segment? I never "ragequit" from anything, but should be amusing nonetheless. No one contacted me btw, generally you do that as a fact-check, or to let the person respond. Just saying.

It's just a game, no reason to get angry. I was hoping it would be entertaining and fun.

You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him.

Given that just lost weeks or months worth of effort they are going to be in a far more emotionally vulnerable state than you are