Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Marox Calendale
Human League
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 15:05:00 -
[121] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:This is interesting, but connectivity is a major, if not the Major risk factor, the class of wormhole in itself does not increase risk. C2 and now C4 space since Hyperion, for example can be particuarly dangerous because of this. Ship class availability also changes the risk factor.(C5/C6) C5 and C6 income seems artificially high, but accordingly needs larger corporations to function well, the income available needs to scale accordingly for them not to become areas where players individually starve, unable to replace losses. Sorry, but the whole discussion seems to me that most people are thinking like this:
C1/C2 = HS C3/C4 = LS C5/C6 = 0.0
It isn-¦t!
With the whole connectivity which comes with hyperion and like everything from the unknown is known today, it is just one big J-Space, with connections to every part of K-Space. We don-¦t have chains anymore. It-¦s a great network. We live in a C2, but we don-¦t have 1 day when LS or 0.0 aren-¦t able to be reached within 4 or 5 WH jumps. Closing all connections doesn-¦t work well anymore, because of the increased amount of wandering wormholes. |
Agrippa Arkaral
Vertical Rebirth
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 15:25:00 -
[122] - Quote
p-p-p-p-pplease don't nerf my capital escalations
how can i survive in eve without my 2b/hour backbone |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
76
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 15:29:00 -
[123] - Quote
Marox Calendale wrote:
With the whole connectivity which comes with hyperion and like everything from the unknown is known today, it is just one big J-Space, with connections to every part of K-Space. We don-¦t have chains anymore. It-¦s a great network. We live in a C2, but we don-¦t have 1 day when LS or 0.0 aren-¦t able to be reached within 4 or 5 WH jumps. Closing all connections doesn-¦t work well anymore, because of the increased amount of wandering wormholes.
This is an important point and has added a lot of interest in everyday wh life, there's more to explore and more opportunities. It does increase the time spent scanning, but it's a reasonable price to pay for better chains.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1233
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 15:45:00 -
[124] - Quote
Marox Calendale wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:This is interesting, but connectivity is a major, if not the Major risk factor, the class of wormhole in itself does not increase risk. C2 and now C4 space since Hyperion, for example can be particuarly dangerous because of this. Ship class availability also changes the risk factor.(C5/C6) C5 and C6 income seems artificially high, but accordingly needs larger corporations to function well, the income available needs to scale accordingly for them not to become areas where players individually starve, unable to replace losses. Sorry, but the whole discussion seems to me that most people are thinking like this: C1/C2 = HS C3/C4 = LS C5/C6 = 0.0 It isn-¦t! With the whole connectivity which comes with hyperion and like everything from the unknown is known today, it is just one big J-Space, with connections to every part of K-Space. We don-¦t have chains anymore. It-¦s a great network. We live in a C2, but we don-¦t have 1 day when LS or 0.0 aren-¦t able to be reached within 4 or 5 WH jumps. Closing all connections doesn-¦t work well anymore, because of the increased amount of wandering wormholes.
This is true, the seperation between lower class wormholes and higher is now really down to the sites they contain, the strength of the effects, and the mass limits of the holes.
Closing holes, is now a very different concept post hyperion, isolation is more of an illusion than it ever was before, and less achievable.
All areas need to be able to support it's residents, if Hyperion had occured with an overall redesign of sites and rewards, then it would have made sense, in isolation, it was just disruptive and made things less enjoyable for no good end. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
738
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 16:01:00 -
[125] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:I may very well get shouted down for this.
But I feel that wormhole space, as a rule, should be more profitable then highsec incursions.
I don't think you will get shouted down on that, in this forum thats for sure. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1236
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 16:52:00 -
[126] - Quote
Quote:Saede Riordan wrote: I may very well get shouted down for this.
But I feel that wormhole space, as a rule, should be more profitable then highsec incursions.
I have Absolutely no problems with incursion runners earning good money.
However.
With the risks, real risks involved, Wormhole rewards, per player, should match them, and as there is no opportunity to chain them, the site rewards should be higher to match.
When new players come into run them then the PVP risk will rise to match. If anyone thinks of them as an isk fountain, then they should see how it draws the predators to the prey.
The ONE certainty of wormholes is that if there is something to hunt, then there are hunters to hunt them................ There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
58
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 17:49:00 -
[127] - Quote
Marox Calendale wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Of course people should be allowed to do solo exploration in wormholes, do you think that wormholes are somehow instantly populated with fully formed corps with no experience? That-¦s a good point and I-¦ll think about it. But where is the problem to start getting experience as a daytripping exploration group? I know much corps who first tested wormholes in groups before they decided to settle in it.
You need a really really good reason to completely shut a valid playing style out of an entire area of space, and I don't see one in this case. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1239
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 18:12:00 -
[128] - Quote
Whilst what wormhole space originated as, is not such an important thing normally, but in this case it never began as something for groups, and not the individual, sure C5 and C6 sites claimed a lot of victims where solo players undertook them, and people learned to run them with additional damage and support, but there is really no basis for removing single players from the game.
We want MORE players in wormhole space, whether solos or groups, all are welcome. It is not our private club. Run for our benefit alone.
if individuals enjoy it they will bring their friends, and their friends too, and wormhole space comes back to life, we cannot wait for fully formed groups to suddenly "discover" wormholes and move in en masse. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
548
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 20:01:00 -
[129] - Quote
If people can make, in W-space, the income levels they expect to see given the precedents of missions, Hisec incursions, and Nullsec ratting above and beyond any costs required for replacing ships lost due to ganking and day-to-day living costs, they will show an interest in W-space again.
If this doesn't happen, you can kiss W-space goodbye. Agree or disagree all you want and cry on the forums with your own anecdotal evidence; you're seeing the effects of it every day whether you want to admit it or not. Sure, an equilibrium will be reached with a few stubborn people still clinging to W-space and market prices, but not at the numbers that would indicate a healthy environment. Most of that will be (Nullsec?) alt farming corps who only exist to churn out ISK and who behave just like they do in Nullsec: log off at the slightest indication that a non-friendly could be thinking about visiting.
If those changes DO happen, people will start coming back to W-space. The risk then becomes one of alpha-predators feeding upon and driving out the prey before a proper food chain can be re-established; there is a risk of repeating the Lowsec population problems of days past. The randomness of W-space will help counter this to some extent.
Rebuilding will be slow, and has its own risks, but it's possible if CCP is willing to come off their disdain for W-space and the fact that it has become something they didn't want it to become and instead embrace and encourage life there.
Edit: It's up to CCP whether W-space thrives or not. |
Thomas Hurt
Future Methods
320
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 21:45:00 -
[130] - Quote
Ratting in W-Space is actually safer than Highsec, in most ways, so W-Space ratting income should be less than that of Highsec. |
|
Fix Lag
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
803
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 21:52:00 -
[131] - Quote
Thomas Hurt wrote:Ratting in W-Space is actually safer than Highsec, in most ways, so W-Space ratting income should be less than that of Highsec.
Don't forget that w-space doesn't take much effort to live in either. Do you have any idea how much highsec station repair costs are these days? It's an outrage. CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3798
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 21:53:00 -
[132] - Quote
Thomas Hurt wrote:Ratting in W-Space is actually safer than Highsec, in most ways, so W-Space ratting income should be less than that of Highsec. are you out of your fkn mind? please, let me know where your entry is next time youre 'ratting' in a WH and i'll come help you out.
PS: when the goons are making fun of your ignorance, you know it's pretty high... Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Thomas Hurt
Future Methods
320
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 22:00:00 -
[133] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Thomas Hurt wrote:Ratting in W-Space is actually safer than Highsec, in most ways, so W-Space ratting income should be less than that of Highsec. are you out of your fkn mind? please, let me know where your entry is next time youre 'ratting' in a WH and i'll come help you out. PS: when the goons are making fun of your ignorance, you know it's pretty high...
Yeah, right. Good luck finding us. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3798
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 23:38:00 -
[134] - Quote
The chance of me finding you is very small. the chance of someone finding you? that's a different story. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
461
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 23:50:00 -
[135] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:Thomas Hurt wrote:Ratting in W-Space is actually safer than Highsec, in most ways, so W-Space ratting income should be less than that of Highsec. Don't forget that w-space doesn't take much effort to live in either. Do you have any idea how much highsec station repair costs are these days? It's an outrage.
I agree.
Nerf nano paste. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
110
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 08:30:00 -
[136] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Thomas Hurt wrote:Ratting in W-Space is actually safer than Highsec, in most ways, so W-Space ratting income should be less than that of Highsec. are you out of your fkn mind? please, let me know where your entry is next time youre 'ratting' in a WH and i'll come help you out. PS: when the goons are making fun of your ignorance regarding WHs, you know it's pretty high...
To be fair to him, you're both right. A fully locked down system is way safer than a HS system. You can't ever discount in HS the chance that the other randoms there aren't going to suicide gank you and you can't run back to station everytime someone new enters local or you'd never get anything done. HS has a low (very low) threat at all times that WS doesn't have.
WS on the other hand, new sig = probably loosing your PvE boat if you don't leave the site.
or shorthand, HS=high potential, extremely low realisation. WS= lower potential, extremely high realisation. |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
45
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:17:00 -
[137] - Quote
corbexx wrote:
I'd like to include C5 and C6 sites with cap escaltions its pretty easy for me to get info very easily. but again it varies depending on how you do stuff (or if you share) 5 characters multi boxing will be insane isk. while 10 people in a site will be good isk but not insane isk. without the cap escalation it drops off alot. will see if i can get numbers.
I have some NoHo numbers but need to get permission to publish them.
and I have no idea on lvl 4 income but its way way lower than highsec incursions thats for sure.
Well, you choosed to run sites on a minimalistic(min nr. of toons). It also varies alot how people are running lower class sites. Why should that be different in c5/6 only? How do you come to the point it's tengu and paladin??? I for example never used one of those ships. Pretty sure you have the experience yourself already for c5/6 and could include the data - no need to ask NoHo. We all apreciate your work on this one, but it's again numbers which will lead to wrong changes made... *sigh*
Just google some **** and you have a good overview:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1270848#post1270848 http://syncaine.com/2012/06/22/eve-c5-isk/ ...
Not to say running c1-4 sites solo in a shiny ship is totaly meh - specially after hyperion. |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
154
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:18:00 -
[138] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote: A fully locked down system is way safer than a HS system. You can't ever discount in HS the chance that the other randoms there aren't going to suicide gank you WAT? Unless you fly one of those super bling fit "I have too much ISK" boats the biggest threat in a HS mission is the "socket closed" message. Even a locked down system is never safe. You can't know who might be locked in there with you. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
739
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:04:00 -
[139] - Quote
umnikar wrote:corbexx wrote:
I'd like to include C5 and C6 sites with cap escaltions its pretty easy for me to get info very easily. but again it varies depending on how you do stuff (or if you share) 5 characters multi boxing will be insane isk. while 10 people in a site will be good isk but not insane isk. without the cap escalation it drops off alot. will see if i can get numbers.
I have some NoHo numbers but need to get permission to publish them.
and I have no idea on lvl 4 income but its way way lower than highsec incursions thats for sure.
Well, you choosed to run sites on a minimalistic(min nr. of toons). It also varies alot how people are running lower class sites. Why should that be different in c5/6 only? How do you come to the point it's tengu and paladin??? I for example never used one of those ships. Pretty sure you have the experience yourself already for c5/6 and could include the data - no need to ask NoHo. We all apreciate your work on this one, but it's again numbers which will lead to wrong changes made... *sigh* Just google some **** and you have a good overview: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1270848#post1270848http://syncaine.com/2012/06/22/eve-c5-isk/... Not to say running c1-4 sites solo in a shiny ship is totaly meh - specially after hyperion.
If you dont use a tengu or paladin feel free to run all them sites in what ever you use and post up the results for people to see. As for the running minimalistic I've also do c1 to c4 in groups of 1 to 3 people but thats on the csm forum which is nda so that has been taken in to account. the c5 or c6 sites is pretty easy to work out just assume 700m a site and split taht between how ever many people you have. yes if your running with 5 people its going to be alot more than if you run with 10 plus people.
as for the results you have linked there over 2 years old and price of nanos has crashed since then.
As for the no need to ask noho, its commen curtacy to ask before publishing stuff. They might not want some stuff publishedon how much we do or do not earn. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
45
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:47:00 -
[140] - Quote
corbexx wrote:umnikar wrote:corbexx wrote:
I'd like to include C5 and C6 sites with cap escaltions its pretty easy for me to get info very easily. but again it varies depending on how you do stuff (or if you share) 5 characters multi boxing will be insane isk. while 10 people in a site will be good isk but not insane isk. without the cap escalation it drops off alot. will see if i can get numbers.
I have some NoHo numbers but need to get permission to publish them.
and I have no idea on lvl 4 income but its way way lower than highsec incursions thats for sure.
Well, you choosed to run sites on a minimalistic(min nr. of toons). It also varies alot how people are running lower class sites. Why should that be different in c5/6 only? How do you come to the point it's tengu and paladin??? I for example never used one of those ships. Pretty sure you have the experience yourself already for c5/6 and could include the data - no need to ask NoHo. We all apreciate your work on this one, but it's again numbers which will lead to wrong changes made... *sigh* Just google some **** and you have a good overview: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1270848#post1270848http://syncaine.com/2012/06/22/eve-c5-isk/... Not to say running c1-4 sites solo in a shiny ship is totaly meh - specially after hyperion. If you dont use a tengu or paladin feel free to run all them sites in what ever you use and post up the results for people to see. As for the running minimalistic I've also do c1 to c4 in groups of 1 to 3 people but thats on the csm forum which is nda so that has been taken in to account. the c5 or c6 sites is pretty easy to work out just assume 700m a site and split taht between how ever many people you have. yes if your running with 5 people its going to be alot more than if you run with 10 plus people. as for the results you have linked there over 2 years old and price of nanos has crashed since then. As for the no need to ask noho, its common curtacy to ask before publishing stuff. They might not want some stuff publishedon how much we do or do not earn.
mh, I just say your data is redundant no matter what ship you use. You are the one bringing up numbers based on ship type, not me. Blue loot price did not change in the past 2 years - thats were the isk is. Ribbon prices got down because of ... numbers c6 groups likes to keep under the carpet.
|
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1242
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:20:00 -
[141] - Quote
Thank you corbexx for all of your efforts, one person trying to replicate all of the data that CCP has is never going to be possible, It will prove however just how accurate or inaccurate their assumptions are and bring everything into the light of day to be looked at. and invaluable as a starting point comparing our own experiences and showing that our results, much more casually attained, are not just one offs,
C1-C2 rewards are just ridiculous and C3 and pre hyperion C4 are better, but pale in comparison to KS alternatives with Much higher risks. Post Hyperion C4 are frankly so out of balance in risk (time in space, distance of spawns, extra static) vs reward people are really wary of running them. C3 are the new C4, with lower income.
You have done more for us than all those who have represented wormhole space did altogether in the past.
We are very lucky to have you.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Bhane Celesto
Hole Violence
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:24:00 -
[142] - Quote
Read the whole thread, some interesting points. I'd like to re-iterate two of them.
Borsek wrote: All in all, your numbers seems correct, but they're also the maximum achievable income, so in reality, you can expect about 20% less, not including the hauling time and rolling time, purely scanning a system out, setting up scouts and especially clicking d-scan or watching alts takes away from your concentration, and makes running sites slower.
This is 100% true, in logical situations and in my personal experience. If I rock 100m/hr in a solo tengu running C3 anoms I'm fine with that, Tengu is paid in 4 hours, rest is profit. If I include scanning, warp in + scout? 90m in the hour is about right.
Furthermore, a bad static = no isk at all. You can't farm an active hole, it's impossible and/or suicidal. This happens, more than you might think. I can run highsec incursions all day once i've got into the fleet, no issues at all.
Secondly -
umnikar wrote: Blue loot price did not change in the past 2 years - thats were the isk is. Ribbon prices got down because of ... numbers c6 groups likes to keep under the carpet.
Both true. MNR price is down from 2 years ago Here's the past year of MNR price history, clear drop and blue loot buy orders haven't changed a single cent. You could 'fix' (and I use that word lightly, income isn't broken, just needs an iteration or two) WH income by updating the prices of bloot buy orders.
Oh, and one of my own points - salvage all your wrecks, keep MNRs, trash the rest. So much salvage and it's all worthless. Giving a solid, new, use for the salvage that is not MNRs would go a long way to smoothing out the kinks right now. |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
58
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:41:00 -
[143] - Quote
Bhane Celesto wrote: You could 'fix' (and I use that word lightly, income isn't broken, just needs an iteration or two) WH income by updating the prices of bloot buy orders.
That would just exacerbate the reward gap between low and high wormholes since blue loot accounts for a lower percentage of the profits the lower the wormhole class according to Corbexx's numbers. |
Aryex
Bastard Children of Poinen
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:14:00 -
[144] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Bhane Celesto wrote: You could 'fix' (and I use that word lightly, income isn't broken, just needs an iteration or two) WH income by updating the prices of bloot buy orders.
That would just exacerbate the reward gap between low and high wormholes since blue loot accounts for a lower percentage of the profits the lower the wormhole class according to Corbexx's numbers.
Note that he didn't say to increase them. He said to update them. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
110
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:33:00 -
[145] - Quote
People need to focus less on the numbers and more on what's being shown.
Questions you should be asking yourself are: Are the class to class ratio's for overall isk right ie. should a C3 be worth ~2 C2's and a C4 ~3 C2's Is the split between Blue (Guaranteed isk) and loot (Market Based isk) right for each Class Are the ratio's between classes for blue and loot scaling right.
If you can do sites faster, slower, with more or less people than Corbexx it doesn't really matter. The numbers when moving your style to a different class should stay roughly the same relative to one another. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
110
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:50:00 -
[146] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:BayneNothos wrote: A fully locked down system is way safer than a HS system. You can't ever discount in HS the chance that the other randoms there aren't going to suicide gank you WAT? Unless you fly one of those super bling fit "I have too much ISK" boats the biggest threat in a HS mission is the "socket closed" message. Even a locked down system is never safe. You can't know who might be locked in there with you.
Sure, back when I used to do HS missions you'd get a random drop in every week or two. Granted this was back when Suddenly Ninja's were in full swing and there's been changes since then that have kinda hurt that playstyle but the potential is still there. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
70
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:37:00 -
[147] - Quote
Thomas Hurt wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Thomas Hurt wrote:Ratting in W-Space is actually safer than Highsec, in most ways, so W-Space ratting income should be less than that of Highsec. are you out of your fkn mind? please, let me know where your entry is next time youre 'ratting' in a WH and i'll come help you out. PS: when the goons are making fun of your ignorance, you know it's pretty high... Yeah, right. Good luck finding us.
We have a winner |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
70
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:58:00 -
[148] - Quote
I see guys here talking indirectly about nerfing cap escalations. So I'd like to openly talk about it 1. We as a corp can cap escalate. Our reality is: four to six guys, average 200-250m isk/h. No we don't particularly suck, but we try and include newbros in wspace. 2. I'm aware that it's possible to make almost 1b per hour if you're multiboxing 7 toons between 2 players. What about it? It means you're multitasking between loki's webs and painters, archon's reps, moros' locks, warping second archon, salvaging in a top noctis, while risking a 15b+ fleet, prone to DC once in a while (yeah some of us live in Brazil), prone to sweet ganks (often; ask lzhx or ssc), being occasionally interrupted by new sig.... 3. From our experience, average site spawn is one per day. That means we can pass a whole week without bearing, during which we ofc whelp ships in pvp attempts ( because we are entitled to suck, what's the problem). Generally we won't be doing sites everyday, we won't be doing more than 2 or 3 in a day, so we won't really be making more than 100m/day/month each. 4. One thing people always forget to mention is: in factional warfare, at tier 4, unless you really really suck, it's very easy to make 300m/h lazily, in a 300m fit stealth bomber, safely because you sig tank the mission sites 100+ km away from the entry beacon. In tier 5 we're talking about 800m/h. I've been there. I've done that. Many militias know how to keep high tier for several weeks till they get bored of raking in isk. Ask the Chesterfield Fancypantz guy. And most have alts in all 4 factions lol meaning they can make it almost everyday, almost all the year. They'll prolly suicide long before that because, lv4 militia missions.
so, if you're risking 15+ billion fleets in order to make much isk in cap escalations, what of it. I'd like to know why it should be nerfed. Specially considering many people don't, most actually use 4-6 or even more players in fleet, averaging Corbexx' numbers in novo. Thx and sorry for long text. |
Eessi
Murderous Inc
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:36:00 -
[149] - Quote
Instead of nerfing income peeps should focus on more ways to spend isk. Be an enabler of players Thomas not a disabler.
Wormholes are awesome isk. If thay gets nerfed we'll find a place to replace the isk source so we can comtinue spending isk. After all somethibg has to pay for billions of isk in subcap loses in a week. |
forsot
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:16:00 -
[150] - Quote
Other then low class (1-2) income doesn't need much of a buff. What it needs is a scaleing mechanism that allows group running to be as or more profitable then solo. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |