Income - Cost = Profitability

Wrong equation. That's the industry one.

The ganking one is destruction + tears = joy

Mr Epeen

Income - Cost = Profitability

I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.

Cost

1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed
2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

I do, or should I say did when the person I shot had a great attitude the last time I played.

But when they start shouting in local with personal attacks and threatening RL acts, laughing at their tears is the only course I will then accept.

I do, or should I say did when the person I shot had a great attitude the last time I played.

But when they start shouting in local with personal attacks and threatening RL acts, laughing at their tears is the only course I will then accept.

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

And nobody's judging* you if you'd like to do that.

We don't say you're a bad person for enjoying your legitimate in-game activities, why are you so keen to say others are bad people for enjoying their legitimate in-game activities?

Aren't you the one always calling for civility?


*At least not on moral grounds.

Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears."

Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears."

It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible

There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty.

legitimate purpose - ... killboard padding

Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears." There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty. It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible, and then used to mock and humiliate the victim. It is the precise opposite of civility, and not really an "in-game" activity at all. Rather it is using Eve to attempt to inflict emotional harm on people, and the more vulnerable/unbalanced/impaired they are - the better.

That's the difference between ganking for a legitimate purpose - be it isk, territory, killboard padding, or what not, which I am fine with, and ganking to intentionally inflict emotional distress, which I find abhorrent.

Income - Cost = Profitability

I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.

Cost

1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed
2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

So you are saying that pods should drop implants?

A change in loot mechanics allowing gankers to profit from a high-sec podding would make it 'more acceptable' than it is now, in your eyes?

I like they way you think, Veers.

I look forward to reading your full throated support for this, when and if CCP ever floats it in a Dev Blog. Lord knows we've been asking for it for years now - giving people a reason to gank, collect and reprocess corpses......

We actually don't really need pods to drop implants. I've gotten plenty of my victims to buy back their corpses for exactly that purpose. Oh, the sweet, sweet tears. One can only imagine the joy I feel, the beat my heart skips, when a victim actually agrees to buy his own corpse back so that he can get his implants back. Of course, I'm always generous enough to sell the corpse back at a price that is lower than the total cost of the implants.

We actually don't really need pods to drop implants. I've gotten plenty of my victims to buy back their corpses for exactly that purpose. Oh, the sweet, sweet tears. One can only imagine the joy I feel, the beat my heart skips, when a victim actually agrees to buy his own corpse back so that he can get his implants back. Of course, I'm always generous enough to sell the corpse back at a price that is lower than the total cost of the implants.

Income - Cost = Profitability

I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.

Cost

1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed
2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

"whispers"?!?

What the **** is this? WoW? Get out...

Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears." There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty. It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible, and then used to mock and humiliate the victim. It is the precise opposite of civility, and not really an "in-game" activity at all. Rather it is using Eve to attempt to inflict emotional harm on people, and the more vulnerable/unbalanced/impaired they are - the better.

That's the difference between ganking for a legitimate purpose - be it isk, territory, killboard padding, or what not, which I am fine with, and ganking to intentionally inflict emotional distress, which I find abhorrent.

Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears." There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty. It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible, and then used to mock and humiliate the victim. It is the precise opposite of civility, and not really an "in-game" activity at all. Rather it is using Eve to attempt to inflict emotional harm on people, and the more vulnerable/unbalanced/impaired they are - the better.

That's the difference between ganking for a legitimate purpose - be it isk, territory, killboard padding, or what not, which I am fine with, and ganking to intentionally inflict emotional distress, which I find abhorrent.

Income - Cost = Profitability

I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.

Cost

1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed
2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

It's the subsequent baiting...the goading in local, the attempt to get people on TS and rile them up...and then to capture an emotional breakdown and get twisted amusement from it. Gank all you want, just stop looking for "tears." Focus on the game, and accomplish things in it...don't use it as a mechanism to inflict emotional distress.

All of which largely happens in your head. The people who are going to explode will do so immediately and without prompting once they've had their baubles taken away (much like a toddler with a favorite toy).

I was the recipient of a lengthy harassment campaign (across several of the harassers alts) because someone didn't like my forum posting.

The important question being, were they SEX harassers?
And did they pour some sugar on you (in the name of love)?

And again folks....the ganking isn't the problem.

It's the subsequent baiting...the goading in local, the attempt to get people on TS and rile them up...and then to capture an emotional breakdown and get twisted amusement from it. Gank all you want, just stop looking for "tears." Focus on the game, and accomplish things in it...don't use it as a mechanism to inflict emotional distress.

As an industrialist the equation is easy:

[Profitability of ganking me] << [Profitability of ganking someone else]

Reminds me of a joke I can never quite get right when I'm telling it to someone without the internet in front of me.

two guys are hiking thru the woods when they come across a blood thirsty bear. The first guy starts taking off his boots and putting on running shoes. The second guy says " hey, what are you doing, you can't outrun that bear!" and the first guy replies " I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun you"

Never been a fan of the Walking Dead. I do enjoy Breaking Bad though, that's a Barium, Neodymium, Tungsten, Silver, Oxygen, Nitrogen and Sulfur that I can jump on.

I have yet to watch Breaking Bad, but it is on my Netflix hitlist.

Reminds me of a joke I can never quite get right when I'm telling it to someone without the internet in front of me.

two guys are hiking thru the woods when they come across a blood thirsty bear. The first guy starts taking off his boots and putting on running shoes. The second guy says " hey, what are you doing, you can't outrun that bear!" and the first guy replies " I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun you"

Mr Epeen

You know you have a SIG for that... Trying to propfile yourself like that on every post LOL it is just annoying m8.

...Because what you describe is harassment and a good way to get banned, so gankers don't do it...

What he describes is, what a lot of code-guys do.
loyalanon is one of them and some more, proven by their own page the mb.com.
So "gankers don't do it" feels very wrong for me.
Do you differ codies from regular gankers?
Or should the pretense of "roleplaying" excuse such behavior?
In my oppinion it does not excuse this behaviour, in my oppionion it shows a lack of respect for the other players.
To those guys i would recommend to play "the Sims 4" and then come back to play EvE.

What he describes is, what a lot of code-guys do.
loyalanon is one of them and some more, proven by their own page the mb.com.
So "gankers don't do it" feels very wrong for me.
Do you differ codies from regular gankers?
Or should the pretense of "roleplaying" excuse such behavior?
In my oppinion it does not excuse this behaviour, in my oppionion it shows a lack of respect for the other players.
To those guys i would recommend to play "the Sims 4" and then come back to play EvE.

What he describes is, what a lot of code-guys do.
loyalanon is one of them and some more, proven by their own page the mb.com.
So "gankers don't do it" feels very wrong for me.

Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears." There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty. It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible, and then used to mock and humiliate the victim. It is the precise opposite of civility, and not really an "in-game" activity at all. Rather it is using Eve to attempt to inflict emotional harm on people, and the more vulnerable/unbalanced/impaired they are - the better.

That's the difference between ganking for a legitimate purpose - be it isk, territory, killboard padding, or what not, which I am fine with, and ganking to intentionally inflict emotional distress, which I find abhorrent.

Statements like "Next time follow the Code as described at minerbumping.com" are the furtherance of the extortion racket, and probably not harassment (wording dependent, of course).

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

Thank you, i decide on my own what i will petition.
In Sokhars case i did before Ripard postet on his blog.

However.



And i am not talking about that.
I am talking about 2 hour session, easy to follow since pictures of the convos where posted.
There is more, but i do not report and do not care minor cases.

Another question:
postal secrecy, does it exist in eve?

Veers, I think that is an interesting post and I hope ISD folks allow this thread to continue for a bit as I would like some clarification.

Say someone ganks others without regard to a "legitimate purpose" and doesn't taunt the victim and the victim gets upset. Do you consider that harrassment?

Same question, but let's say the ganker enjoys seeing his victims lose their ships and is amused when theyy complain about being ganked but doesn't provoke more tears by word of mouth and simply blows stuff up. Is that harrassment?

I am curious if the intent of the ganker figures prominently in your assessment or is it simply observable actions?

It's pretty impossible to know real intent....so I tend to focus on actions.

1) At least in my view, is clearly fine. People are entitled to play Eve just to try and burn things down and cause mayhem, just like they are entitled to mass wardecc highsec corps, to pad killboards, etc.....

2) This is closer, but still fine in my view. When people blow up empty ships with no real killboard value, I strongly suspect they are doing it in the hopes of getting rage/tears, but as long as they don't actively start baiting for it, there is no conclusive evidence, and I think you have to give the benefit of the doubt that they are getting in-game value from it, maybe just the entertainment value of blowing things up.

Now this doesn't mean I agree with the ability of -10 sec status gankers to just blow up ship after ship every 15 minutes without stronger action by CONCORD....but at least in my view merely performing in game actions (whether its ganking, awoxing, scamming, etc...), even if those actions are likely to cause upset, is not a EULA violation/harassment or whatever.

To me it gets problematic when the situation gets escalated to back and forth chat or coms, especially when one party is clearly losing control (as opposed to a song ransom of a CCP Dev when everyone is entertained).

Now personally I think that some of the people ganking are specifically looking for the tears/anger, and are going to do their best to actively elicit them, and that's where I think the crackdown is (and should be), not on the actual in-game actions.


Edit - I think a big factor is also why there is such a movement to target "carebears" in highsec, as opposed to killing the people who are looking for a fight in low/null. Is it because

1. They don't tank ships properly and ganking is good isk (legit)
2. It's really easy to kill them (legit)
3. They fly blingy ships that look good on a KB (legit)

or is it

4. They are "carebears" and wan't to avoid PvP, and grrr.... we are going to force them to realize that Eve is a PvP game even in highsec (borderline)
5. Since they live in highsec, try to avoid PvP, and think they are protected by the law, they are much more likely to have an angry metldown when you blow their ship up and will then rage all over local, providing great entertainment value (in my view, not legit - but hard to enforce unless there is active baiting)

It's pretty impossible to know real intent....so I tend to focus on actions.

1) At least in my view, is clearly fine. People are entitled to play Eve just to try and burn things down and cause mayhem, just like they are entitled to mass wardecc highsec corps, to pad killboards, etc.....

2) This is closer, but still fine in my view. When people blow up empty ships with no real killboard value, I strongly suspect they are doing it in the hopes of getting rage/tears, but as long as they don't actively start baiting for it, there is no conclusive evidence, and I think you have to give the benefit of the doubt that they are getting in-game value from it, maybe just the entertainment value of blowing things up.

Now this doesn't mean I agree with the ability of -10 sec status gankers to just blow up ship after ship every 15 minutes without stronger action by CONCORD....but at least in my view merely performing in game actions (whether its ganking, awoxing, scamming, etc...), even if those actions are likely to cause upset, is not a EULA violation/harassment or whatever.

To me it gets problematic when the situation gets escalated to back and forth chat or coms, especially when one party is clearly losing control (as opposed to a song ransom of a CCP Dev when everyone is entertained).

Now personally I think that some of the people ganking are specifically looking for the tears/anger, and are going to do their best to actively elicit them, and that's where I think the crackdown is (and should be), not on the actual in-game actions.


Edit - I think a big factor is also why there is such a movement to target "carebears" in highsec, as opposed to killing the people who are looking for a fight in low/null. Is it because

1. They don't tank ships properly and ganking is good isk (legit)
2. It's really easy to kill them (legit)
3. They fly blingy ships that look good on a KB (legit)

or is it

4. They are "carebears" and wan't to avoid PvP, and grrr.... we are going to force them to realize that Eve is a PvP game even in highsec (borderline)
5. Since they live in highsec, try to avoid PvP, and think they are protected by the law, they are much more likely to have an angry metldown when you blow their ship up and will then rage all over local, providing great entertainment value (in my view, not legit - but hard to enforce unless there is active baiting)

This game is designed around the idea that someone can always ruin your day, some of us enjoy it...imagine that.

Re: 5

I view it as an education process to teach them the difference on expectations of what high security means versus absolute security. It is...unfortunate...that such a learning process prompts an emotional meltdown.

What I find unfortunate is that such a learning process has to take place for some people in the 1st place. Even after it does, some people react to it the wrong way.

The right way to react is to say "wow, didn't know that could happen, I better be smarter next time so that there is no next time". What we usually get, however is "this is BS, I pay for this game and the game makers shouldn't let this happen to me, off to the petition system and/or the forums I go to falsely threaten to quit unless they change this game to prevent this kind of thing!!!!".

Income - Cost = Profitability

I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.

Cost

1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed
2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

I've spent 7 years avoiding ganks, learning how to not get ganked and haven't been ganked. Not once have i flet the need to post a screed about gankers. Perhaps I was to busy playing the game to worry about it....

Only thing I measure is "will I have the dps to pop the target before CONCORD saves them".

If you gank just for Isk profit you miss out on fun killmails such as that random pod with 3bil of implants in it. I rarely even bother with looting wrecks (unless the mail shows something nice).
Isk is easy to come by (just buy a PLEX and sell it), the fun in making spaceships explode is all that matters.

Thank you, i decide on my own what i will petition.
In Sokhars case i did before Ripard postet on his blog.

However.



And i am not talking about that.
I am talking about 2 hour session, easy to follow since pictures of the convos where posted.
There is more, but i do not report and do not care minor cases.

Another question:
postal secrecy, does it exist in eve?

Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.

How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

To me it gets problematic when the situation gets escalated to back and forth chat or coms, especially when one party is clearly losing control

(as opposed to a song ransom of a CCP Dev when everyone is entertained).

It's pretty impossible to know real intent....so I tend to focus on actions.

I think a big factor is also why there is such a movement to target "carebears" in highsec, as opposed to killing the people who are looking for a fight in low/null. Is it because

1. They don't tank ships properly and ganking is good isk (legit)
2. It's really easy to kill them (legit)
3. They fly blingy ships that look good on a KB (legit)

or is it

4. They are "carebears" and wan't to avoid PvP, and grrr.... we are going to force them to realize that Eve is a PvP game even in highsec (borderline)
5. Since they live in highsec, try to avoid PvP, and think they are protected by the law, they are much more likely to have an angry metldown when you blow their ship up and will then rage all over local, providing great entertainment value (in my view, not legit - but hard to enforce unless there is active baiting)

It's pretty impossible to know real intent....so I tend to focus on actions.

Not as long as you, but the rest is the same.
Still since the sokhar / e1 incident, code and the secties of new order (not the gankers per se) are an entitiy that i can despise wholeheartly. And i like to tell them what kind of sad little people they are. Call it my kind of EvE Metagaming.

dat gank though

just a game lol

no need to bully people

and veers you make some really bad assumptions sometimes

How is inviting someone to voice comms to get them to do a singing ransom in exchange for their stuff different from inviting them to voice comms to get them to do a singing ransom just because one ransomee gets mad? The actions are identical.



What happened to:

That entire last paragraph is you railing against the intent you assign to other people's actions.

Thankfully CCP seem to have taken the same approach.

And again, ask the gankers themselves, they will freely admit that a lot of what they are doing is enjoying TEARS.

Just quickly, because as per usual you completely missed the point.

That's why I focus on actions.

And if you invite someone to voice coms (even if you initially you claim to have had noble intentions) and then spend the next hour goading them into more and more anger

And if you gank someone and then plaster local with mocking chat, and get the person angrier and angrier while exalting in the scene

Income - Cost = Profitability

I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.

Cost

1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed
2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

You remind me of a girl I used to date a long time ago. Once, she asked me to spell orange, so I said, "O-R-A-N-G-E".

And she looks at me with a scowl and says, "No, I mean the colour, not the fruit."

I can't stop laughing at your ex. My god!! I think we might have dated the same woman. :(

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if she was seeing other dudes tbh. She was a bit like a fart that way.

I always had to pretend she wasn't mine when in public.

Income - Cost = Profitability

I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.

Cost

1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed
2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities

Income

1. What you can salvage from the wreck
2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics
3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local
4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior

Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?

Veers is claiming a number of things that he (characteristically) is unwilling to provide evidence for:
1) Gankers gank for no legitimate in-game purpose
2) Gankers harass their targets to produce tears
3) Gankers are bad people for doing their in-game activity
4) Verbal abuse isn't really agaist the rules if you're really mad because of someone's legitimate in-game activity
and several others.

So Veers is on a mission like this j315 guy.

1) I do not have a problem with ganking, since it keeps highsec interesting.

Point 2) however is some problem, where some sad entities want to elicit rage.

3) This is to general, some Point 2) entities lack social competences. Ganking alone is not evil.

Point 4) Another Problem case: Those Point 2) entities try to elicit rage and provoke Verbal abuse. That might not excuse every outbreak, but it excuses quite a lot. If one needs others despair and anger so badly, they should play "the Sims4". Everywhere else, halve a Brain and human decency should forbid to much rage-fishing. This way its just another try to kick other people from the game.
I see a difference in legit game mechanics and human behaviour. It is legit to gank ships, but there is no reason to hoss around and humiliate the victim further. Again, i do not see that in a standard ganker, but quiet often from codies.

Play EvE and not "as?hole"!

Point 2) however is some problem, where some sad entities want to elicit rage.

Point 4) Another Problem case: Those Point 2) entities try to elicit rage and provoke Verbal abuse. That might not excuse every outbreak, but it excuses quite a lot.

but there is no reason to hoss around and humiliate the victim further. Again, i do not see that in a standard ganker, but quiet often from codies.

Roleplaying is perfectly legitimate gameplay, and I haven't seen anything from Code. that amounts to much more than posting the killmail in local and suggesting that the target pay into the extortion scheme part of Code.'s business model, dressed up in their roleplaying framework.

Like ... seriously ... all you are saying is that "I do not know anything about that" ...
... as if that meant anything. It doesn't.

All it needs is people who are skilled in listening and interpreting what others are saying.
Like ... hell, neurolinguistic programmers.
You probably call these "psychics" too, right?

"Be the villain" means "I can do whatever I want".
"Roleplaying" means "I get away with everything as long as I pretend to be nice".

At least in their disconnected minds.

But lots of carebears are in no way better.
These people are united by hypocrisy and lack of *understanding* of empathy.

You have to consider that too many people are bears.
Be it nullbears, carebears or gankbears, these people share a weak mind and low actual self esteem.

The only solution is to get rid of *all* of them.

So Veers is on a mission like this j315 guy.

1) I do not have a problem with ganking, since it keeps highsec interesting.

Point 2) however is some problem, where some sad entities want to elicit rage.

3) This is to general, some Point 2) entities lack social competences. Ganking alone is not evil.

Point 4) Another Problem case: Those Point 2) entities try to elicit rage and provoke Verbal abuse. That might not excuse every outbreak, but it excuses quite a lot. If one needs others despair and anger so badly, they should play "the Sims4". Everywhere else, halve a Brain and human decency should forbid to much rage-fishing. This way its just another try to kick other people from the game.
I see a difference in legit game mechanics and human behaviour. It is legit to gank ships, but there is no reason to hoss around and humiliate the victim further. Again, i do not see that in a standard ganker, but quiet often from codies.

Play EvE and not "as?hole"!

Sure. But unless they *do* something *wrong* to elicit that rage, CCP would need a team of mind readers to punish them.

Nope. This is a game for adults (and near adults due to CCP's silly T rating). If someone cannot prevent themselves from hurling insults and/or threats over losing at a *game* that they freely choose to participate in, the fault is entirely on them.

Roleplaying is perfectly legitimate gameplay, and I haven't seen anything from Code. that amounts to much more than posting the killmail in local and suggesting that the target pay into the extortion scheme part of Code.'s business model, dressed up in their roleplaying framework.

I play EVE as an ******** with pride thank you very much,

and the emotional reactions I elicit are intentional. I don't care what you think that makes me,

I'm out to make my enemies mad so that they're more likely lose when it comes time to fight. I'm out to get them emotional so they'll slip up and shoot me when I'm baiting. I have a bunch of reasons, as do others, to elicit emotional knee jerk reactions that are perfectly valid methods of psychological warfare.

You think this doesn't happen in other games? Do you know what teabagging in Halo was intended to do? Elicit a rage response that would cause people to blindly come after you for revenge. In their emotional state, they become predictable and easy to drop. I could literally write a novel on the different forms of psychological warfare used in various online games. The only people that have a problem with it are the people that fail at it, and demonstrably so. As a result, they're the ones losing to it.

I believe your forum dribble amounts to nothing more than an emotional response itself, actually. Which is why you're failing to think before you speak.

Since they often are to narcistic and do it in the open:
No mindreaders needed, one needs just to check their homepage.

I expect the same from the griefers. Beeing adult.

That might not excuse every outbreak, but it excuses quite a lot.

Then you must be looking with closed eyes or ignore every reference that there is.

You are welcome.


Obviously, you do care.

You are fishing for those emotions and emotions is what you get.
You can not act surprised if anyone gets back on you in real life therefore.


No Halo, but BF2, BF3, BF4, so yes. You teabag to long and you "enemy" respawns and shoots you in the balls.
Then: Its not warfare, its wargames.
Nagging in BF2, BF3,BF4: nag me to much, i change the server.
Making someone angry, well thats ok. Humiliating them? Why would one need that, if that one would not lack certain social skills and assets?



Its you having foam around your mouth atm.

LALALALALALALALA I READ NOTHING!!!

stuff

In my oppinion, singransoms, kills, wardecs, scams, even bonusrooms are doable. Still you need to keep in mind, that you are playing with other humans and have at least a basic amount of respect.

You are fishing for those emotions and emotions is what you get.
You can not act surprised if anyone gets back on you in real life therefore.

Wait what? Are you saying you condone bad RL actions, over in game ones that could make people upset?

And again, if it's so easy to find this evidence of harassment or abuse, why haven't you presented it?

Actually, you seem to expect *more* from gankers.

Why do some players get a pass from you for abusive behavior and not others?

Also, griefing is against the rules in EVE, and any instances should be reported.

Well said.

He's just a forum troll and openly admits it. Just report his posts as such and move on. It's easier and has a better chance of doing some good.

Am I the only one that, as a miner, enjoy the risk of getting attacked, even in high sec. What is the game if there is no risk to it, wouln't that be plain and boring in the long run?

Well i took him for serious, when he claimed to be an inocent victim of RL threats and RL actions. But after discussing with him, i can not believe anymore, that he is realy inocent.

Anyway after a while he went from discussing to trolling, so be it.

CCP acts on RL threats, but despite some guys saying CCP is stupid, they are not.
They also can see when RL threats where provoked by previous actions of the aleged "victim"

Am I the only one that, as a miner, enjoy the risk of getting attacked, even in high sec. What is the game if there is no risk to it, wouln't that be plain and boring in the long run?

Actually I want the same adult behavior from both parties.
Why is that "expecting more from gankers?"
Are gankers somewhat excused?

That might not excuse every outbreak, but it excuses quite a lot.

No pass for any party, but still the one who provokes is a hypocrit when he acts suprised.

CCP acts on RL threats, but despite some guys saying CCP is stupid, they are not.
They also can see when RL threats where provoked by previous actions of the aleged "victim"

I want the same adult behavior from both parties.

No pass for any party, but still the one who provokes is a hypocrit when he acts suprised.

They also can see when RL threats where provoked by previous actions of the aleged "victim"

Am I the only one that, as a miner, enjoy the risk of getting attacked, even in high sec. What is the game if there is no risk to it, wouln't that be plain and boring in the long run?

Meh ... not happy with this new portrait.

Yeah, you're starting to look old and haggard. Your immediately preceding one was solid.

I am afraid that I have to ask you to stop posting in this thread until you fix yourself up. Sorry!

Going back to your original question the first couple of replies seem the best as alot of the others have drifted off-topic.

For me it was never about cost vs. benefit although it makes sense to go for a higher value target when you have a choice.

Some people just have alot of isk to burn. Back in the days of Hulkageddon when i was -10 both myself and some corp mates would buy 100 thrashers and fittings at a time and Red Frog them to a staging system then hand them out fitted to anyone who wanted them.

CCP acts on RL threats

They also can see when RL threats where provoked by previous actions of the aleged "victim"

Let me clear something up, for all of you dirt-for-brains carebear scum around here.

If I blow up your ship, you are not a "victim" of anything. That is an interaction that you expressly agreed to when you signed up for this game. If I laugh at you afterwards, too damn bad; I am allowed to derive satisfaction from victory, even if it is only over worthless excuses for gamers like you.

If you threaten my life, or the lives of my loved ones? You are the offender, every time. It does not matter in the slightest what happened in the game up to that point, the second you flip your lid and start screaming death threats or vile sexual insults at me, YOU ARE IN THE WRONG, no exceptions. You are the only real "bad guys" in EVE Online.

And the fact that this routinely happens in the game, and no one is punished, is something that CCP should be ashamed of.

Look at the underlined. Look at how it's an attack on real people.

It's not an attack. That's a statement of fact, anyone who thinks that videogame actions justify real life threats probably has sediment between their chin and their hair.

Nor is it an attack on "real people". I am characterizing them entirely by their expressed beliefs, and by their actions taken in a videogame.

There are a few ways to make it work. First off, you need to be using the right ship with the right fit. People like to fly around in Talwars and Thrashers for their suicide ganks. Which is fine, but a Catalyst is cheaper. Another thing I've seen a lot of new gankers try is fitting T2 stuff. If you're guaranteed a ship loss, why waste the money on T2 mods? A meta4 fit catalyst (fits can vary a bit) with the right skills and implants can take down a fairly well tanked Hulk before the Concordoken. All together, I usually never spent more than 3.5mil on my Cat fits. The implants can be pricy depending on where you buy them, but you can avoid having to replace implants by warping to a safe spot immediately after the Concordoken, then dock up as soon as is safely possible (I use the term "safe" relatively, of course).

Secondly, when you loot the wreck in your alt, you want to be looking for something specific. For me, it was the strip miners (especially the T2s). Skiffs and Procurers aren't the best targets because they only have one high slot, so unless they have strip miners in their hold (which is unlikely) you're only going to get one strip miner from them. That's assuming the strip miner drops, of course. Then what you do is sell the strip miners BACK to the miners on the market at an elevated price. It's important that you at least sell them in the same region that you ganked them. No point in selling to miners who you aren't ganking. Naturally, the requires you to gank a LOT. Ganking with a pirate corp will help a lot, too. The more people there are ganking strips, the higher demand there will be for strips. The higher the demand for strips, the more you can inflate the price.

Sorry if this isn't the algebraic answer you were looking for, but that's basically how it works. Basically, you're stealing a ~3.6mil (Hek prices) lolly-pop from a toddler and selling it back to them for 4 or 5 mil (or what ever you've managed to elevate the price to). Considering the meta4 Cat only costs a total of ~3.5mil, you're making a decent amount more than you're losing. Even if you only manage to sell one strip miner for the normal price of ~3.6mil, you're still making more than enough to replace your loss. I hope this helps you to understand the profitability of suicide/hisec ganking. It isn't exactly the most lucrative profession (especially when the miners catch on and won't come out to play for a few days), but it gets the job done.

Wrong equation. That's the industry one.

The ganking one is destruction + tears = joy

Mr Epeen

This is genius. Perhaps we could consider the cost of ganking a pod with no implants a price worth paying for the good ones to be found?

were that true there would be a lot more ganking going on. Last time I was in a mission hub it was just overflowing with people running missions. pretty sure most gankers care about making isk.

I'm assuming you're referring to the large drop in sec status for popping a pod. It really isn't a bad price to pay at all. Indeed, negative sec status does become a bit of a nuisance. It can be worked around, though. Provided you are fast and accurate enough. If it becomes too bothersome, you can always farm rat tags and turn them in at a CONCORD station. It's a bit of a grind, but it's a good way to pass the time if your targets have become particularly mindful of your presence. When they start hiding from you, disappear into lowsec for a while to collect tags. Turn the tags in for sec status increase, then go back to your hunting grounds. By that time, your targets will be nice and complacent again. Might even have a few new faces eager to meet their demise. :)

Well, that's the most clueless thing said in the thread so far.

If gankers were in it for the money, mission hubs are exactly where they'd be plying their craft. But are they going after those juicy, blinged out, multi-billion ISK piggy banks? Of course not.

They're ganking untanked miners and empty haulers. For every decent gank you link, I'll link a hundred that were completely valueless.

It's for the tears, dude. No more. No less. And there's nothing wrong in admitting it. Don't be ashamed. Be proud. It's a perfectly valid game mechanic.

Mr Epeen

Oh no lol I forgot about sec status. But you can pop pods as an outlaw anyway, even in 1.0 systems

Yeah I was referring to the cost of the gank thrasher. Bout 1.2 mil lol.

Wow. Since when is a Thrasher cheaper than a Catalyst? lol. I've been out of game too long...

Profitablitiy.
It doesn't really matter to me.

What matters is to kill them out of the blue ..............

So you would gank empty shuttles just because?

So you would gank empty shuttles just because?

So you would gank empty shuttles just because?

No. I do not do things "just because".
I never have and the universe does not work that way anyway.
There is not a single being in existence that does things "just because".

"Just because" usually either means that someone does not want to bother telling the reason,
does not want to tell the reason or does not know the reason.

Causality......... it's weird, right?


"Out of the blue" means that I engaged "by surprise" or "without them seeing it coming".

So what do you get out of popping an empty shuttle?

So what do you get out of popping an empty shuttle?

So what do you get out of popping an empty shuttle?

So what do you get out of popping an empty shuttle?

I have many times. So what?

I do not get anything out of it personally.
The answer to your question lies in March 2012, in Hek.
It was a means to an end, which I managed to achieve. (I apologise if that's not the proper saying)


If you noticed ... or, actually, even CARED to notice ...
... I do not share the attitude or even gameplay of absolutely most other gankers.

No hiding behind excuses.

Having a little bit of creative fun is hiding behind excuses?

There are, absolutely, a lot of people who hide behind excuses.

Not really connected to my post.

"Doing something for fun" is no honest reason either.

Meh ... not happy with this new portrait.

So what do you get out of popping an empty shuttle?

I miss the most important part in the OP - the economical aspect as a producer of ships. Ganks become a complete different value then - i dont really calculate the value of destruction needed because i profit from both participants.

What is the increase in demand per ship ganked?

And what fraction of the market do you control?

Calculate your marginal profit per gank and you will realize how absurd that angle is.

For the most part, 1 to 1. They lost one ship, they need one ship. The only variance is that they may buy a different ship or stop the activity that got them ganked, but that's an outlier.




It's not about the entire thing, you pusillanimous imbecile.

It's about what you control *near* the gank area. If I am the only person who sells Procurers, Retrievers and mining lasers in Teonusude, then I benefit directly from every ganked ship, since most people would rather eat a ten percent markup if it's right in system. If I am one of two people, then I benefit on about a 50/50 scale. That is incredibly beneficial.



The people who actually bother to do the math are the ones helping to fund the ganking.

You must be kidding me. There is no way there is a 1-1 correlation for ganks and ships purchased. Many victims give up the occupation or leave the game entirely.

Many others cannot afford to replace the ship.

Local monopolies are of little value when the guy can just go to jita and buy it for cheap. Good luck extracting economic rent based on avoiding a 20 minute Jita. The idea that masses of gank victims are going to go next door to replace their losses at a significant markup is nothing shy of delusional.

The people who support ganking are those looking for entertainment and tears.

How many of the top CODE shareholders are ship manufacturers of repute?

The people who support ganking are those looking for entertainment

1. People frequently come on the forums and explain that they are leaving eve because of out of control suicide ganking.

It's also an extremely rational economic response to stop mining if you get ganked.

Number of people from manufacturing corps? 0.

1. People frequently come on the forums and explain that they are leaving eve because of out of control suicide ganking. It's also an extremely rational economic response to stop mining if you get ganked. It surely drives many into nullsec alliances for better protection. And few purchase permits, as people don't like giving in to extortion.

Nonsense. What is the increase in demand per ship ganked? Maybe 0.1 ships demanded for each ganked? And what fraction of the market do you control? Calculate your marginal profit per gank and you will realize how absurd that angle is.

BTW Sol, yer new avatar is hawt. Rawr....

*kinks* (:

Thank you, kind sir!

Would you like to request a full list of features? :)

Generally you look at the cargo.

You are soooooooooo old fashioned man....time to retire.

The new meta is to blow up empty ships and concoct incredibly unlikely reasons why this is somehow profitable. Time to embrace the new age.

Yeah, you would had to have ignored everything I said debunking this bullshit you just said, since otherwise you couldn't carry on with your narrative.

Which is, as I already laid out, complete nonsense.

Yes, you have conclusively proved that blowing up empty freighters is now a profitable activity, defying all known laws of economics in the process. Congratulations.

Yes, you have conclusively proved that blowing up empty freighters is now a profitable activity, defying all known laws of economics in the process. Congratulations.

It's cheaper to gank with more people since you can use Catalysts instead of Taloses (~1:7). To keep a large group interested or to even motivate them to join the fleet you need a stream of targets so they don't have to wait for hours and desert the fleet. After all it is a game, people play it to have fun, at least in our little corner.

There will be valuable targets among the randomly picked freighters that completely pay for the rest of the ganks and beyond.

Since this is a very social game it's often more about the people than about pure economics. Some people simply understand that, others cry forever on the forums because they don't actually have a clue what's going on.

no tangible impact

not being done to make a profit

would at least bother to scan the ships beforehand