A lot of WH groups make it their business to prey on renters almost exclusively. They kill a lot of ratting carriers. Like, a lot....

Dunno too much about it myself cos we are bad at catching them before they dock/POS up but I think the numbers are negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Phoebe will make rental empires defunct though no?

Renters should be reconditioned. Shown the error of their ways.

They feed the tumorous growths in Nullsec that are too lazy to earn ISK the way the rest of us do - nothing but ISK farms taking up space that, for the sake of "content generation", would be better served in the hands of smaller entities independently where they could establish themselves and build a presence big enough to create "good fights". This would of course mean that the tumorous growths would have to hold off on swallowing the smaller entities whole with their invasive mass which has been left to fester for years.

Not that I expect an honest, legitimate response from any relevant party regarding this matter, but it would be interesting to know just how much of a crutch renters are for the big groups that resort to such income gathering.

I'm also interested to know if there are actually groups out there dedicated enough to bother traversing the mass of bubbles that can be found on the majority of rented system gates just to shoot fear soaked renters. That **** is like frog-spawn. It's ridiculous and unnecessary.

I would assume that the groups that have the ability to rent space out have enough ISK piled up collectively to last a very long time even if all the renters stopped paying and moved out.

I do remember people explaining why renting became a thing and I hope that those people in the know will share their knowledge in here.

Hearsay and biased opinions on the matter aren't helpfull.

I do remember people explaining why renting became a thing and I hope that those people in the know will share their knowledge in here.

Thanks Ka' ... that makes sense ... but I don't see how this is worth it?
I mean... what do systems cost anyway to make it worth renting them away?

And isn't it kind of weird that instead of people from null farming systems ...
... they are being rented away to others?

Can you tell me how that makes sense? It seems contradictionary,
so I guess I am missing relevant information.

I mean... people could just farm sktes themselves and give a part to their alliances.
Its something to do in null too, no?


(yes, I invented the word contradictionary and I LOVE it :p)

I believe renting goes back further than that...
Didn't BoB rent out some of their space?

A lot of WH groups make it their business to prey on renters almost exclusively. They kill a lot of ratting carriers. Like, a lot....

Of every big sov holding alliance there must be people who like to rat. These people could be set up
to farm anoms and deliver parts of the income to the alliances ... which would be bigger income than
from actual renters, no?

Can you, or someone else, tell me more about Pasta, what they do and their impact?

All the turbo jews are not interested in something like this.

Okay ... renters don't mind it ... alliance members do.

Seems weird. One would assume that in alliances containing thousands of people
it would be trivial to find people who wouldn't mind ...

... it's seriously confusing me, but I guess I have to accept this weirdness.


Thanks!

Seems that parts of the lingo are very very old...

Awoxing guarantees citizenship


Please don't tell me you don't know wheniaminspace

back around 2012...i had a main that was part of a renter alliance....we rented at roughly 4 billion isk per system and we had two systems. so 8 bill per month. Though we in the great scheme of things paid our lip service to the Landlord....most of leadership snickered a bit at them.

The reason was on the average our 200 member group at the time collectively made 200 billion isk oer month....with just two systems. We were decently self sufficient when it came to industry. Our only short coming was the super small pvp division that we had at the time supplemented on occassion by our ratting corps. Alliance Coffers obtained taxing our own corps to be out there about 25% of that collective income per month.

So recalling this experience.....I would say 'no' renters are not required in nullsec. And I also call BS on those nullbears that say it isnt possible to fully utilize their space for the projects they are doing. Motivation and a will to actually own something and maintain it is the key....not easy laziness. Things get easy after the work and infrastructure are in place.

I believe renting goes back further than that...
Didn't BoB rent out some of their space? Not in the sense that they got ISS to put up stations for them but in the more modern manner.

The arguement that renting "gets the little guys out to null" brings me to recall people like Mom and Pop Ammo Shoppe - They were a small corp, I guess 20 members (it was a long time ago) and they lived out of a single POS in a single system... When IAC took over the pocket (and later the constellation) they remained in place and remained neutral, I don't believe they paid us anything (except refining taxes when we built The Distillery)...
Getting "the little guys" out to null seems rather an altruistic sentiment - though the method may have a great deal more to do with enlightened self-interest...

Thank you, Brorr, for this really nice post ... even with greetings! :D


And thanks, DaReaper, as well ... for this short trip into the past. :)

A lot of WH groups make it their business to prey on renters almost exclusively. They kill a lot of ratting carriers. Like, a lot....

Dunno too much about it myself cos we are bad at catching them before they dock/POS up but I think the numbers are negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Phoebe will make rental empires defunct though no?

I am not sure if the rents are still the same but if we take your 4 billion per system as a guideline and look at 688 systems with Northern Associates holding sov. we arrive at the not so shabby sum of 2752 billion PER MONTH for the landlords of NA.

Bottinghood of Tangra would earn their PL lords ~1450 billion per month and even the CFC renters would earn their masters ~500 billion a month.

Oh how poor must the land lords be and how terrible the life must be if you get that much isks each month for doing nothing at all. Since there is a no sov war agreement there isn-¦t much to waste isks on.

Phoebe will make rental empires defunct though no?

I am not sure if the rents are still the same but if we take your 4 billion per system as a guideline and look at 688 systems with Northern Associates holding sov. we arrive at the not so shabby sum of 2752 billion PER MONTH for the landlords of NA.

Bottinghood of Tangra would earn their PL lords ~1450 billion per month and even the CFC renters would earn their masters ~500 billion a month.

Oh how poor must the land lords be and how terrible the life must be if you get that much isks each month for doing nothing at all. Since there is a no sov war agreement there isn-¦t much to waste isks on.

How many titans did PL lose again? 33? if we assume 100 bill each including fitting for the sake of easy calculating, those losses were basically replaced as far as isks are concerned within a little over 2 months.
So during this age of the blue doughnut with nothing to waste these insane amounts of isks on what do N3., PL and the CFC do with all those isks? Stockpile cap and supercap fleets at every other system so that the upcoming fatigue system won-¦t bother them at all?

As Pasta has been mentioned as first one,

Phoebe will make rental empires defunct though no?

Not really it will actually make ratting safer due to nobody hot dropping from the other side of new eden.

It very well may.

Expected consequences

Some alliances will immediately start wanting to look for better space
In the longer run, there'll be more conflicts going on, with more localized goals
Newer alliances will have an easier time getting a foothold in nullsec
Coalitions will be marginally less stable
Alliances will have to choose more carefully what space they develop, where their staging systems are, and so on (low truesec systems generally tend to be in strategically inconvenient places)

I do remember people explaining why renting became a thing and I hope that those people in the know will share their knowledge in here.

Hearsay and biased opinions on the matter aren't helpfull.

I would like to remind you people that if you feel the need to talk about this ...
... as absolutely pointless as it is ...
... then you need your own thread for that.


Thanks.

Yeah, dont talk about the thread subject in its thread

You need to make a new thread if you want to do that

Wishfull thinking that ignores the past.

Dear ISD, please know that if you move my thread to COAD,
I will not be able to post anymore ... so that wouldn't really help.

*kinks* (:

Ehhh, idk. Pandemic Legion already ceded a region or three of their rental empire in preperation for Phoebe, so....

And just one other thing: This thread has been moved to Corporation, Alliance & Organization Discussions.
Oh al right, al right...keep calm....sheeezz...

I forgot one tiny little thing: By moving the thread to CAOD I made it impossible for the OP to post without breaking the forum rules.
Therefore, thread moved back to GD.

Wishfull thinking that ignores the past.

The past:



That was 3 and a half years ago. How many times do we (as a game community) have to experience history repeat itself till we realize that a certain way of thinking does not work?

This is really funny, because it's the same [adjective] guy making similar changes for the same reasons.

In reality, Nullsec coalitions change their space a little bit (Like PL putting their space under some alternative management...but it's still their renter space), and logistics and movement gets harder for everyone. Now, the coalitions will be even LESS inclined to fight each other, because they would need to move their assets so far from their home that it leaves them open to attack.

the former renters will be actively engaging in fighting over territory.

Could you enlighten me as to the organizational relationship between xxDeath and PL? Am legit curious.

Ehhh, idk. Pandemic Legion already ceded a region or three of their rental empire in preperation for Phoebe, so....

https://eveskunk.com/e/343706457

Edit: So the blue doughnut is only getting bigger because of the logistical changes and maintaining rental territory. :CCP:'ed yet again.

https://eveskunk.com/e/343706457

Edit: So the blue doughnut is only getting bigger because of the logistical changes and maintaining rental territory. :CCP:'ed yet again.

Looks to me like they're ceding renter space to another group in exchange for security/stability. Sure it isn't ideal, but where before you had 1 rental empire, now you have 2. And this is before the implementation of any changes in phoebe.

So instead of being neutral to XxDeath, they are now business partners in the existing b0t rental program, as all of those emails show, it's a simple transfer and standings/rights are all remaining the same.

Yep, this change is completely going to change up nullsec.

So anyway, here we are today. Nullsec is largely the domain of large, 2-3000 member PvP alliances, grouped up into inevitable coalitions and engaged in not-quite-impossibly large wars. Costs are mosty covered at the alliance level by a combination of old money and high-value moon minerals. The latter continue to rise in price due to ever-increasing demand from invention, and the after-effects of last year's exploit-related burp invalidating the calculations used to construct the Alchemy pressure-release valve. Most of the space that's up for grabs is owned by a clone army of ideologically-distinct but functionally-similar alliances, making the entire political landscape depressingly homogeneous. The state of the military art is not much better - sub-capital fleets are wheeled out for cyno-jammer take-downs and then packed away before they can fall victim to multiple doomsdays, leaving huge capital fleets to park themselves in front of a never-ending procession of starbases. And the smaller groups, the newer organizations hoping to gain a foothold in the Great Game, are left begging for crumbs around the edges. Who's going to let security-risk nobodies into their back yard when they'll never be able to compete pay as much as a single dysprosium moon?

We're not convinced that this is the best, most interesting, most dynamic and most emergence-friendly state of being for nullsec, so we're going to make some changes.

Just like now...Just like once neutral PL and XXDeath being not neutral... How many people who were soooo tired of shooting POSes would love to have pre-Dominion SOV back. I wonder if any of them can remember how happy they were that they didn't have to grind POSes any more??? lol

Hmmm...maybe I missed it, but what changes are you in favor of implementing?

Changes that don't backfire and make a bad situation worse. To do that you have to look at the underlying realities of WHY a situation exists and also keep in mind that we are talking about a game (meaning you must take human nature into account).

Wishful thinking and good intentions don't work.

k...do you have any specific, detailed counter-proposals? It's very easy to say "this idea is ****." Doing so is also completely useless. Vague statements like "account for human nature" are scarcely less useless. Do you have any plan that involves specific buffs (preferably with numerics) e.g. add mexallon ore to nullsec grav sites, nerf/buff null income by x%, implement mechanic X instead of mechanic Y. You know, actual changes?

I'm not a game designer. Being silent when you see a bad way of thinking being repeated for the umpteenth time because one doesn't have godlike powers to decern a better way is dumb.

The difference between me and you is that I KNOW I don't know how to fix 'the problem', and would rather accept that than just go "well DO something, anything" which is the thing that is actually useless. CCP is committed to what they are doing, none of this talk is gonna change anything (you see it din't stop Dominion or the Anom nerf) .

Feel free to ignore my (and others) warning, CCP does lol. But remember that you did so in 6 months after we've had time to see the results of the thing you are (wishfully and without thought) supporting.

Eve Online - the only game where it's mandatory for players to point out game design flaws, propose solutions, gather feedback on those solutions, react to said feedback and introduce required fixes to proposed solution and finally submit it to dedicated forum section where it can be ignored by devs and trolled even more by other players.

Your warning is worse than useless without an alternative. So far, we have 2 choices: CCP's sov revamp or the status quo. If both are ****, present an alternative.

In All Honesty though it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a mass conglomerate together to harass these area's and start breaking up Null sec again.

About sov though, at least we just ~naturally~ have fatigue (in real life) mechanics for shooting structures.

I consider joining Pasta if the CEO of Love Squad approves ...

I am in Deklein.

I see dozens of sites ...
... in every system ...
... and no one seems to run them.


Seriously, wtf?


People can't complain that there is lack of isk making opportunity ...
... if they don't even take the opportunity that is right there ................................

Caught this one before I turned off.

Why run them?

Why not? They are there.
They are doable.

There is nothing keeping these people from doing them.
There are sites available in abundance in systems that were EMPTY ...
... except my own presence, of course.

There is *no* reason not to run them, as they are there ...
... they are doable ... and there's barely any danger.

If all you see is ISK-making ...
... then I have to question your intelligence.

If the only reason to play ...
... is to make ISK ...
... then I think you don't get the point of a game.

And even IF ISK-making was the only thing that counts ...
... which is a bullshit argument to begin with anyway ...
... then they'd still make more money running these sites ...
... than by not doing them and just sitting around!


You just more and more start to sound like a nullsec propaganda parrot.


That being said ... there's really nothing to add to your drivel.


Good night.

This just doesn't make sense!

Given any number of people,
there must be a smaller number of people who would run them,
yet nobody does that. It just makes no sense to me.


Hell, I'm no fan of PvE either but I acknowledge the fact that people exist who run it.
How can it be that of thousands of people, nobody does them?

Because it lights up the PvE counter and people will come and drop onto them?
I understand that it's no fun, but how is it possible that SO many people share the same opinion??

I just don't get it! :O

Because you cannot comprehend what has been posted in this thread:
1) They're too low on income and even at maximum upgrades they cannot support more than a few pilots in space
2) They're extremely easy intel for other groups to come and camp the system for no income at all, see 1)
3) 90% of the sites are garbage, see 1)
4) Shooting crosses is boring

I guess that sums it up nicely.

Do you have first hand experience?

Thanks!

This just doesn't make sense!

Given any number of people,
there must be a smaller number of people who would run them,
yet nobody does that. It just makes no sense to me.


Hell, I'm no fan of PvE either but I acknowledge the fact that people exist who run it.
How can it be that of thousands of people, nobody does them?

Because it lights up the PvE counter and people will come and drop onto them?
I understand that it's no fun, but how is it possible that SO many people share the same opinion??

I just don't get it! :O

Hell, I'm no fan of PvE either but I acknowledge the fact that people exist who run it.
How can it be that of thousands of people, nobody does them?

CCP referred to the lower grade anomalies (which will now become the only ones available to most sovereignty holders) as 'filler' - and indeed that's how they are regarded by the players. So CCP are being quite open about the fact that they want most 0.0 systems to be useless again.

The apparent aim of Dominion was to get more people out in 0.0 which had for a long time been the preserve of already very rich and powerful organisations, and the aim of this reversal seems to be to get those people back to empire.

The Dev blog talks about promoting conflict, but I don't really see any possible change in the state of war in null-sec. The huge power blocks are always fighting, and everyone else is being packed off back to their level-four agents.

Because it lights up the PvE counter and people will come and drop onto them?
I understand that it's no fun, but how is it possible that SO many people share the same opinion??

I just don't get it! :O

I think the problem is that there is a fundamental fact about ratting/missioning/anomolies - it is all really, really dull. If it was in-and-of-itself fun and interesting, it would get people run it for its own sake (think people in other games who quest for the stories, or raid for the challenges). EvE PVE has neither of those qualities - the stories are tepid and you are repeating them (literally, not just figuratively in the "loot 10 boar tusks" sense) several times a day, and any challenge it might have had is broken down and clearly documented to be no challenge at all (unless you make your own challenge like I've seen Jenn mention in the past).

Therefore, in the absence of challenge or story, all you have is isk, which means you have two types of regular "consumers"; those of us who do the bare minimum to get the isk they need so they can run off and pvp, and those who play the game to see their bank balance increase (or to level up their Raven), neither of which want any more out of the experience than raw efficiency, and that's the point where nullsec anomolies trip over, since its not rawly (is that a word) efficient for either the "quick couple of hours without interruption" (because of the potential for interruption) or "putting a blingy at risk" (because of the blingy being at risk) crowds.

Grab a thrasher and go run an anomaly... its fun struggling to survive

This just doesn't make sense!

Given any number of people,
there must be a smaller number of people who would run them,
yet nobody does that. It just makes no sense to me.


Hell, I'm no fan of PvE either but I acknowledge the fact that people exist who run it.
How can it be that of thousands of people, nobody does them?

Because it lights up the PvE counter and people will come and drop onto them?
I understand that it's no fun, but how is it possible that SO many people share the same opinion??

I just don't get it! :O

Yes, I do, thanks for asking. I was playing as a carebear since 2007 and then amended my ways and turned that useless toon into a bag of meat like the idiot I was and went to PvP as I find it more fun.

No I mean ... do you have first hand experience in the space we're talking about.


Edit: She has. ^_^

This just doesn't make sense!

Given any number of people,
there must be a smaller number of people who would run them,
yet nobody does that. It just makes no sense to me.


Hell, I'm no fan of PvE either but I acknowledge the fact that people exist who run it.
How can it be that of thousands of people, nobody does them?

Because it lights up the PvE counter and people will come and drop onto them?
I understand that it's no fun, but how is it possible that SO many people share the same opinion??

I just don't get it! :O

M
If you perma camp all the good ratting systems in a region and have the ability to drop on targets that rat anyways you can be a huge pain in the ass.

Precisely the reason I don't believe any sov changes can be based on residency, industry indicies and so on. It's just too easy to shut a system down with a few cloaky hot-droppers.

This is true when you think of ratting as an individual activity. However sov nullsec itself is not an individual activity and when you're fleeted with friends doing PVE its far less of a risk. So occupancy sov can happen but, unlike ill-timed power projection nerfs you have to have engaging scalable PVE in place before you decide to switch to it. Other wise those of us who heed the advice from the financial wizards of our coalition will continue to do what has been recommended, have highsec alts for isk.

Precisely the reason I don't believe any sov changes can be based on residency, industry indicies and so on. It's just too easy to shut a system down with a few cloaky hot-droppers.

Your thinking is 1 dimensional. Also hot dropping is very overrated right now and will be more so in the future.

The way it generally works is there's not a fleet on standby to come and save your bum every time you get pointed. Perhaps one will form and hit a choke point to try and catch the dropper when he roams out (if he does) but nobody's going to leeroy in to assist you. The most interactive it gets is everyone laughing at your killmail on comms. People just get safe in a POS and either switch out to a PvP ship or goes and makes a cup of tea. Indeed with good intel channels this usually happens before the red hits your system. If there's a known log-off, you move somewhere else.

If it's one dimensional it's because the game doesn't really give you all that many options, especially as you don't know how many and what is going to come through that cyno.

You don't exactly have the experience to back up any of your "the way it works" posts being a Member of the Royal Amarr Institute. Other dude just look at my post a few posts above this.

Most ratters don't bother fighting back and dock up or leave the system instead so if you do it on a grand scale it does indeed have an impact.
If you perma camp all the good ratting systems in a region and have the ability to drop on targets that rat anyways you can be a huge pain in the ass. The problem is that you need enough people willing to have an cloaky alt sitting in system most of the time or to go out and activly hunt. Another big problem is the remoteness of some regions where you on the one hand have to fly your alt trough god knows how many gates to get there and on the other hand have to take multiple mids to bridge there to drop on someone.
You can see this very nice when you compare the NPC kills for the last 24h in for example delve where you have NPC space, close proximity to low sec and AFAIK pizza operating there and cobalt edge where you have no NPC space and no proximity to low sec.

Another great example is if you compare the amount of renters in
PBLRD: 3500
NA: 14000
BOT: 11000

The eastern regions are far more remote and thus more appealing to renters.

Sorry dear, I've been playing the game since Beta. I'm probably one of the oldest characters still active in game.

Sorry dear, I've been playing the game since Beta. I'm probably one of the oldest characters still active in game.

Royal Amarr Institute [RIN] from 2014.07.30 21:35 to this day

The CFC also treats their renters like crap, which is a large part of the reason many people vastly prefer to rent from BOT/NA, beyond just the safety of the space.

No you haven't pretty much everything you say about the topic of nullsec can be ignored. At best you have the understanding of reading some articles.

I'm an alt but don't let that get in the way of your trolling attempt.

Hint, if you want to claim you have experience in something you shouldn't post on an alt that has no evidence of ever doing what you claim.

I'll post with whichever character I want thanks. Perhaps you should make an actual argument rather than engaging in argumentum ab auctoritate.

I'll post with whichever character I want thanks. Perhaps you should make an actual argument rather than engaging in argumentum ab auctoritate.