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Evelyn Lavi
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Posted - 2006.08.22 21:56:00 -
[1]
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=248
And let me quote:
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)
The rest of the blog is a good read too. It explains what a mess of EVE instas are causing.
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Talidorn
Pandoras Mining Covanant
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.22 21:59:00 -
[2]
Know how to read the date of this devblog?
2005.05.30 17:58:22
Talidorn
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Evelyn Lavi
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:02:00 -
[3]
Are you implying that the problems with instas have magically gotten better within the past year?
On the contrary, considering server stability and lag, and the even greater dependency that junkies have on them, I'd argue for the opposite.
The problem's gotten worse! How about some "evidence" to contradict that statement, hmmmmmm? 
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Nosferatu Zodd
Black-Sun
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:03:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 22/08/2006 22:05:32
Yup, the game has changed a bit.
For example you have warp bubbles now.
Quoted from that blog :
So, this brings us down to the real question with instabookmarks, the one which we ask ourselves;
"How can we decrease the invulnerability factor while still keeping some amount of the travel time deacrease and safety of instabookmarks?"
-------------------------------------------------------
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:05:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Talidorn
Know how to read the date of this devblog?
2005.05.30 17:58:22
Talidorn
Congratulations! You have stated the most ignorant and inane response for today's forum hijinks!
So the blog is a year old. Think the bookmark problem has gotten any better since then? Are you suggesting that a magic wand's been waved and in the past year, rendered the server stress from instas nonexistent?
You, sir, are either a troll or a total insta junkie in denial. 
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 22/08/2006 22:05:32
Yup, the game has changed a bit.
For example you have warp bubbles now.
Quoted from that blog :
So, this brings us down to the real question with instabookmarks, the one which we ask ourselves;
"How can we decrease the invulnerability factor while still keeping some amount of the travel time deacrease and safety of instabookmarks?"
We had warp bubbles then too.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Nosferatu Zodd
Black-Sun
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 22/08/2006 22:05:32
Yup, the game has changed a bit.
For example you have warp bubbles now.
Quoted from that blog :
So, this brings us down to the real question with instabookmarks, the one which we ask ourselves;
"How can we decrease the invulnerability factor while still keeping some amount of the travel time deacrease and safety of instabookmarks?"
We had warp bubbles then too.
And who used them at that time except you?
-------------------------------------------------------
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:08:00 -
[8]
Oh yeah, on another note, even if we accept the premise that "a year's time has magically fixed all the database issues with the glut of instas, everywhere," the other statements made in the dev blog are still very relevant.
Yes, there are no drawbacks to instas, and rather, there is a drawback to NOT having instas, forcing a dependency and warping game mechanics around them.
There are many, many other issues with instas, if you read the blog and stop plugging your ears. But I really doubt you'll do that, because the thread trolls are probably waiting for the lag from their latest BMcopy to settle down. 
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:11:00 -
[9]
I think the OP tried to do a service, because some very ignorant people were stating, over and over again "there is no evidence that instas cause lag or database overload."
It's really sad that these same people, when given the evidence they asked for, now say "Nyeeeeh! That was a year ago! The problem magically solved itself since then!"
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Deez Nuttzy
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:12:00 -
[10]
quit complaining geez. pirates have it good right now as it is. this game is about all areas not just pirating, hmm don't we have miners, traders, etc. if we get rid of insta BM then lets change the name to EVE-ARGH cause everyone will be pirates then.
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Anti Protagonist
Gallente
Archron Dusyfe Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
Are you implying that the problems with instas have magically gotten better within the past year?
On the contrary, considering server stability and lag, and the even greater dependency that junkies have on them, I'd argue for the opposite.
The problem's gotten worse! How about some "evidence" to contradict that statement, hmmmmmm?
Uhm....lets see. New DB structure, new DB server, new cluster.... Yeah, I'd say there's plenty that's changed that year+ old statements shouldn't be considered still accurate. How about some actual evidence that it is still a problem?  The "lag" could as easily be attributed to the fact that there are many thousands of more players active now....
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Trillian Mcmillan
The Arrow Project
The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:14:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 22/08/2006 22:16:01
Hello again. I am an insta junkie.
Please stop harrasing me already. Im just trying to live here. I have absolutly no trouble with you not having any BMs. Please stop trying to blame every single problem you have on me. I am not responsible for game inblanaces. And no i did not couse any lag. I also have nothing to do with the long patch deployment.
I use bookmarks for personal medical reasons only. I suffer from a condition better known as "wisdom". It can be easily expalind as a state in which i always try to use the tools given to me. I really need bookmarks (g2g insta, ss, insta dock, insta undock, tactical and attack spot) to help me with this medical problem.
I have a prescription from CCP which allows me to use them. If you do not cease your harrasment i may be forced to file a formal petition.
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Kunming
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:15:00 -
[13]
I dont get the point with instas and CCP.. now a days you are deadmeat in 0.0 (and low sec) without them, so they are pretty much mandatory.
A mandatory server load for CCP; they could simply remove instas and add a warp to 0km option with BMs that have not been used for a month to be deleted. No one would use instas anymore and the sole purpose to create BMs would be tactical.
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Capt Ty
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
Are you implying that the problems with instas have magically gotten better within the past year?
On the contrary, considering server stability and lag, and the even greater dependency that junkies have on them, I'd argue for the opposite.
The problem's gotten worse! How about some "evidence" to contradict that statement, hmmmmmm?
Has it gotten worse? His comment reads to me that instas have been around for a long time and the game still works fine. The game seems to have more problems as a result of database configuration issues and buggy patches.
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Capt Ty
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.22 22:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
Are you implying that the problems with instas have magically gotten better within the past year?
On the contrary, considering server stability and lag, and the even greater dependency that junkies have on them, I'd argue for the opposite.
The problem's gotten worse! How about some "evidence" to contradict that statement, hmmmmmm?
Has it gotten worse? His comment reads to me that instas have been around for a long time and the game still works fine. The game seems to have more problems as a result of database configuration issues and buggy patches.
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Evelyn Lavi
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Posted - 2006.08.23 02:44:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Evelyn Lavi on 23/08/2006 02:44:01
The burden's on you now, junkies. Do you have "evidence" that a year's passage has magically removed the database burden "instas" place upon it?
Or are you so self-convinced that absolutely nothing will sway you, not even the lag you get when you copy your thousands of disgusting little bookmarks and slap them onto your "people and places" folder?
This kind of selfish, distorted thinking helps explain for me why most of the United States is still convinced that Iraq had something to do with the 9/11 terrorist attacks. 
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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.23 02:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 22/08/2006 22:05:32
Yup, the game has changed a bit.
For example you have warp bubbles now.
We had warp bubbles then too.
And who used them at that time except you?
/me raises hand, since December 2004.
/Ben
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Ragnar6
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan
Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 22/08/2006 22:16:01
Hello again. I am an insta junkie.
Please stop harrasing me already. Im just trying to live here. I have absolutly no trouble with you not having any BMs. Please stop trying to blame every single problem you have on me. I am not responsible for game inblanaces. And no i did not couse any lag. I also have nothing to do with the long patch deployment.
I use bookmarks for personal medical reasons only. I suffer from a condition better known as "wisdom". It can be easily expalind as a state in which i always try to use the tools given to me. I really need bookmarks (g2g insta, ss, insta dock, insta undock, tactical and attack spot) to help me with this medical problem.
I have a prescription from CCP which allows me to use them. If you do not cease your harrasment i may be forced to file a formal petition.
Amen sister and may I have another!
BMs rule!
Rag,
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Archo X
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:02:00 -
[19]
Wow you guys are friggin rocket scientists!!! A server that handles almost 30,000 simultaneous users, probably 100,000 NPCs, a huge market, an escrow system, probably a million asteriods, and hundereds of other object can only be lagged by instas.
You are n00bs. Sorry. If you want lag to go away get out of Jita, stop farming lvl 4 missions, and stop... well stop everything.
If instas were such a lag factory CCP would/should have been fixed by now. Instead they removed old buggy missions.
Now stop whining.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
I got h4xXx0rzed!!!!11!!on3!!!111!1el3ventEEn!!!11 N3RF teh modz!!! |
Cylynex
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:03:00 -
[20]
Don't you have anything better to do than comment on old dev blogs? Stop whining and adapt to the way things work instead of how YOU want them to work.
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Talidorn
Pandoras Mining Covanant
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Anti Protagonist
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
Are you implying that the problems with instas have magically gotten better within the past year?
On the contrary, considering server stability and lag, and the even greater dependency that junkies have on them, I'd argue for the opposite.
The problem's gotten worse! How about some "evidence" to contradict that statement, hmmmmmm?
Uhm....lets see. New DB structure, new DB server, new cluster.... Yeah, I'd say there's plenty that's changed that year+ old statements shouldn't be considered still accurate. How about some actual evidence that it is still a problem? The "lag" could as easily be attributed to the fact that there are many thousands of more players active now....
Thank you for the obvious reply to the OMFGDON'TUSEINSTAHypocrits.
And to the poster with no pic... I'm a troll? where's your pic you n00bscab? I've played over 2 years now. It has slowly gone up and down with lag. New DB server and wow... WTF happened to the lag...
Look, CCP will nerf instas when they do (Hell they did it to my drones). The skill is already in the list for the future WTFPWNage of instas (seen Warp Navigation rank 4 - Skill at navigating in warp. 10% Bonus to warp accuracy and 10% less max range from desired warp location per level?).
So get off of your high horses and use your instas with pride... at least until the time that Warp Navigation hits and CCP finds someway to "cleanse" all of our unused instas...
Talidorn - stating the obvious for the clueless |
Archo X
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
Edited by: Evelyn Lavi on 23/08/2006 02:44:01
*snipped for trolling and real world political discussion*- Tirg
You probably should not have said that last line... You have proven yourself a tart and I wish you luck and my you not drool on your keyboard too much.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
I got h4xXx0rzed!!!!11!!on3!!!111!1el3ventEEn!!!11 N3RF teh modz!!! |
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Tirg
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:25:00 -
[23]
Heavily moderated for trolling, flaming, and inappropriate discussion. If you have any questions, email us at [email protected].
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Shiraz Merlot
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Shiraz Merlot on 23/08/2006 03:30:48
That just tells you the implementation needs work.
There are loads of ways you could efficiently implement the modelling, view and transactional control of thousands/millions of database objects in a client-server system. CCP just needs teh will to implement one.
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Carter Burke
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=248
And let me quote:
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)
The rest of the blog is a good read too. It explains what a mess of EVE instas are causing.
Easy solution. Push bookmarks down to the client.
Problem solved. Next pathetic whine, please.
CB
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Tohopka
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:42:00 -
[26]
I like how randomly the word "pathetic" is being tossed around. What's pathetic about preferring a working, low-lag server over the hunk of crap we've had to put up with for the last few weeks?
Pathetic is better used to describe something petty, small, and weak. Like a bunch of players who need a bookmark exploit to get by. Or even better, the people that threaten to leave if (boohoo) their bookmark exploit eventually gets removed.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.23 03:52:00 -
[27]
Copying BM's no longer causes lag. It just takes ages because it's low-priority. That's a temportary way of REDUCING the issue.
It needs changing..but making the player more vulnrable by default is NOT the only way of doing it. 0km warp / new active ways to catch also fills Oveur's requirements.
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Father Weebles
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2006.08.23 04:04:00 -
[28]
once ccp fixes tech2 ill give up instas
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.23 04:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Carter Burke
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=248
And let me quote:
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)
The rest of the blog is a good read too. It explains what a mess of EVE instas are causing.
Easy solution. Push bookmarks down to the client.
Problem solved. Next pathetic whine, please.
CB
Yeh great idea then no one needs to make bookmarks ever. We can just map out the systems and create a program that makes 20 different sniping bookmarks for each gate we come across... yay 
Seriously please think these things through.
Insta's ARE a problem, they WILL be changed. Sooner you realise that and start coming up with good solutions instead of trying to stick to what is present, the better. |
DigitalCommunist
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.23 04:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Copying BM's no longer causes lag.
Ahahahahahaha..
..proof?
Originally by: Maya Rkell
It needs changing..but making the player more vulnrable by default is NOT the only way of doing it.
Originally by: Oveur
Now, from my point of view, the far most important part of this equation is the near invulnerability during travel.
Something doesn't quite add up. Oh yes, your suggestion is the exact opposite of what CCP wants. I'm getting deja vu!
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
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Mitchman
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2006.08.23 04:13:00 -
[31]
The problem with the load on the server from instas is mainly due to crappy code, and the CCP devs have already admitted that much. Removing instas because of that is not a valid (enough) reason, if that was really the big problem they would fix the code.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.23 04:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Copying BM's no longer causes lag. It just takes ages because it's low-priority. That's a temportary way of REDUCING the issue.
It needs changing..but making the player more vulnrable by default is NOT the only way of doing it. 0km warp / new active ways to catch also fills Oveur's requirements.
Perhaps new bubbles that work in empire, which have a reduced range and only catch war targets? (perhaps 5km) Also new ones for low sec with better than high sec ones but still worse than 0.0 (perhaps 7km) which catch all however the person who dropped them becomes aggressed no matter where they currently are as soon as someone is dropped into the bubble, so if they are in high sec their shuttle is destroyed, if they are docked they get undocked and attacked by sentrys. If they logoff the bubble goes inactive. If their current ship is destroyed the bubble goes inactive.
Anything i've left out? |
j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.23 04:43:00 -
[33]
"And let me quote:
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)"
Look up "unnecessary". Then come back and explain how you started with "not needed" and arrived to "primary lag source".
(necessity and severity are two entirely different things)
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.23 05:11:00 -
[34]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 23/08/2006 05:11:42
Originally by: j0sephine
"And let me quote:
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)"
Look up "unnecessary". Then come back and explain how you started with "not needed" and arrived to "primary lag source".
(necessity and severity are two entirely different things)
cmon lets not get pedantic, they are bad aspect of the game in that they are needed or else you lose a big advantage. it's annoying to use them, to manage them, to copy them ect. Lets just come up with a better alternative eh? |
j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.23 05:26:00 -
[35]
"cmon lets not get pedantic"
I was actually quite serious there. I mean, if being "unnecessary" is a proof why instas have to go, then there's _lot_ of things that put "unnecessary" lag on the server. Like opening your hangar to put or take out stuff from it, or having turrets on your ship that swing about a lot when you pew-pew the other ships, or having visual missiles that you shoot at these other ships. All these lag sources could be easily removed, but is this (causing not necessary lag) a reason and justification good enough to remove them?
"they are bad aspect of the game in that they are needed or else you lose a big advantage. it's annoying to use them, to manage them, to copy them ect. Lets just come up with a better alternative eh?"
Yup, now this is another matter entirely. As for trying to find alternatives... well, i tried some time ago. CCP tried too, a few times. Hope they eventually think of something good here, but in the meantime 'discussion' that focus just on "instas bad, make them go. amen brother, TESTIFY! damn them server power guzzlers!" doesn't really help in achieving this ^^;
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Ta chaina
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Posted - 2006.08.23 06:36:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ta chaina on 23/08/2006 06:37:02
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=248
And let me quote:
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)
The rest of the blog is a good read too. It explains what a mess of EVE instas are causing.
And once again you tell of no way to fix the problem. So Ill quote from the same blog.
Nevertheless, it is a good thing to have options regarding ways to travel faster. Now, the solution to that does not necessarily lie within changes to instabookmarks.
So now what?
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.23 06:37:00 -
[37]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 23/08/2006 06:37:49
um where did the rest of this thread go? lol i can only see jose's reply with my quote in it...
ah now the rest magically appears... weird.
anyway i think the solution has something to do with stargates themselves, i will work more on my idea before posting it though, it is very good though (i might be biased :P) |
w0rmy
Intensive CareBearz
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Posted - 2006.08.23 06:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
Are you implying that the problems with instas have magically gotten better within the past year?
No, Are you implying CCP have made no changes in regards to bookmarks in the past year?
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Dark Shikari
What single item is larger than a jetcan?
My ego?
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Sonho
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Posted - 2006.08.23 07:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: j0sephine
"cmon lets not get pedantic"
I was actually quite serious there. I mean, if being "unnecessary" is a proof why instas have to go, then there's _lot_ of things that put "unnecessary" lag on the server. Like opening your hangar to put or take out stuff from it, or having turrets on your ship that swing about a lot when you pew-pew the other ships, or having visual missiles that you shoot at these other ships. All these lag sources could be easily removed, but is this (causing not necessary lag) a reason and justification good enough to remove them?
Jo the DEVs have said countless times that the BM's put a heavily strain on the server,their only mistake was not removing them back in 2004 ,now more will whine,say that they will quit ,blablabla.
And they removed the amount of drones that we could had ,if that "fix" went ahead then by all means remove the instas,visual missiles,opening hangar and etc.
Originally by: j0sephine
"they are bad aspect of the game in that they are needed or else you lose a big advantage. it's annoying to use them, to manage them, to copy them ect. Lets just come up with a better alternative eh?"
Yup, now this is another matter entirely. As for trying to find alternatives... well, i tried some time ago. CCP tried too, a few times. Hope they eventually think of something good here, but in the meantime 'discussion' that focus just on "instas bad, make them go. amen brother, TESTIFY! damn them server power guzzlers!" doesn't really help in achieving this ^^;
Well instas got to go CCP needs to start thinking of a way of removing them AND to put that on the test server everything ,anything is better than the instas.
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DemonStar Supernova
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Posted - 2006.08.23 07:23:00 -
[40]
Edited by: DemonStar Supernova on 23/08/2006 07:24:05
Ok. I havent posted on this topic before and I dont plan on posting on it again. And so I dont get angry quotes, this is aimed mostly at the OP.
People complain about large corporations hoarding vital items and having complete non-dispuited control over certain reigions and ded-spaces. Everybody knows that a 15km warp makes you wrechedly vulnerable to attack forces larger than yourself, especially if youre in a situation where you have to travel alone. Every reigion has only a few chokepoints of entry.
So, you wanna kill instas and not propose an alternative? Well guess what, you just gave every large alliance executive control of almost 60% of the surface space of eve, and they can protect those small chokepoints with an incredibly small group of ships. Why? Because everybody and their momma has to slowboat straight up to a blob.
You wanna whine about server loading times? How about knowing that every single empire based person in eve is forced to stay exactly where they are until they join a corp that already has a ridiculous amount of power by owning an entire reigion, unchecked and unchalenged. Rather than having to defend 50 systems, they have to defend 3.
Youre proposing the end of reigional warfare, the end of a fair and competitive economy, and the end of a free and open eve. You wanna save the servers and eliminate 0.0 in the process. Until you can propose a better idea, rather than ranting about increased server load, then youre ideas are useless to me, and everyone in eve that chooses to step foot outside empire.
Truth be told, I live in 0.0. I could care less about travel times. I use Instas to travel through several incredibly hostile reigions just to get a hauler full of ammo to my battleship. The second I open that hauler up to any ship that may just happen to wander up behind me, my supply lines are completely cut. No modules, no ammo = no playing.
All I can say is thank god youre not a Dev. Until a reasonable solution (*Im in the navigation skill camp*) can be integrated, either I have my instas or CCP doesent have my money. |
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Anemus Thuella
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Posted - 2006.08.23 07:33:00 -
[41]
I know I'm a newb and sorry if this has been mentioned before but how about this for a solution.
Make Empire 0.5-1.0 gtg warps be 1-2km from gate on default setting.
Make 0.1-0.4 be 7-10km to give time for a bit of piracy.
And 0.0 would get the full 15km with deadspace added so no mwds on gate approaches.
Instas would work like they do now for all the other uses they have, safe-spots, insta-dock/undock etc.
This would greatly reduce the amount of bookmarks, add more PvP in 0,4-0,0 systems and not mess up the game-mechanics too much. You could even make it part of the fiction saying that CONCORD has upgraded all gates with bubble-tech reducing the travel-time for Empire-inhabitants and protecting the public from pirates by slowing down their incursions into civilized areas with the added dead-space.
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Ilia Farstar
Gallente
Winds of Vengeance
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Posted - 2006.08.23 07:55:00 -
[42]
I'm quite new to the forums and I'm sure it's been suggested before but...
Wouldn't it be cool if you warped within a certain in range of a BM (or object) in a random direction?
Without a skill to decrease your warp-in distance you arrive 15 km away from your target but not necessarily short of it. With a Navigation skill the distance from the target would decrease - maybe with a slightly random result e.g. with Skill V you might end up within 0-5 km from target but still in a random direction from it.
This way the current insta-BMs would actually make you end up further away from your target then just warping to it...unless you're lucky.
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Thelmarr
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Posted - 2006.08.23 09:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Anemus Thuella
Edited by: Anemus Thuella on 23/08/2006 07:39:08
Edited by: Anemus Thuella on 23/08/2006 07:38:24
I know I'm a newb and sorry if this has been mentioned before but how about this for a solution.
Make Empire 0.5-1.0 gtg warps be 1-2km from gate on default setting.
Make 0.1-0.4 be 7-10km to give time for a bit of piracy.
And 0.0 would get the full 15km with deadspace added so no mwds on gate approaches.
Instas would work like they do now for all the other uses they have, safe-spots, insta-dock/undock etc.
This would greatly reduce the amount of bookmarks, add more PvP in 0,4-0,0 systems and not mess up the game-mechanics too much. You could even make it part of the fiction saying that CONCORD has upgraded all gates with bubble-tech reducing the travel-time for Empire-inhabitants and protecting the public from pirates by slowing down their incursions into civilized areas with the added dead-space.
Edit.
I saw your post on 0.0 alliances choking EVE, But couldn't this be solved with more entry points into 0.0? Or maybe Empire residents could create those cynosaurual-thingies and jump into remote, not patrolled areas set up a POS and attack from behind. Or am I missing something here?
Yes. More entries to 0.0 would be good.
On to your suggestion on limitations on warprange. 7-10km is still rather bad for slower ships. As it is when you run into piratecamp you will have multiple snipersetup ships locking in you very quickly and then blowing the hell out of you. It doesn't take more then few moments.
As for 0.0 with 15km warprange and deadspace... It would again play too much into hands of gankers. It would make getting to gate in ganked system something along lines of impossible.
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Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.23 09:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=248
And let me quote:
- 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.)
The rest of the blog is a good read too. It explains what a mess of EVE instas are causing.
the only thing this shows is how obsolete your constant forum spamming is! you are causing more lag than bookmarks!
_________________________________
just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
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Lucre
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.23 09:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
Perhaps new bubbles that work in empire, which have a reduced range and only catch war targets? (perhaps 5km) Also new ones for low sec with better than high sec ones but still worse than 0.0 (perhaps 7km) which catch all however the person who dropped them becomes aggressed no matter where they currently are as soon as someone is dropped into the bubble, so if they are in high sec their shuttle is destroyed, if they are docked they get undocked and attacked by sentrys. If they logoff the bubble goes inactive. If their current ship is destroyed the bubble goes inactive.
Anything i've left out?
This addresses the "catching people in Empire" part. Other bit that needs addressing is travel speed no longer being affected by ship speed (barring variations in base warp speed). Possible solution might be to have more variation in base warp speeds and to also have it affected by speed mods so "faster" ships still have better strategic speed, even with 0km warps.
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2006.08.23 09:25:00 -
[46]
Why won't people go to 0.0 en masse?
Top reason: No instas.
There you go. Enjoy your PvP. 
Unnerf Amarr!
"Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must."
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FireFoxx80
Caldari
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.23 09:52:00 -
[47]
Didn't Valar say somewhere, that instas account for 14% of the total Eve data?
What I do the rest of the time. |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.08.23 10:12:00 -
[48]
The problem, is that no one can think of a way to keep the functionality if instas, without keeping the problem.
Functions:
- grants advantage to those who take the time/effort to obtain instas (sort of like a home-field advantage).
- shortens travel times
Problems:
- creates a large number of database entries.
- the advantage granted may be too powerful in comparison to the time/effort required.
Everything I can think of that would grant advantage to people familiar with the territory (and thus keep the job of surveyer around), still involves large numbers of database entries (due to the need to keep track of what locations you have scouted). |
Khanid Am
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Posted - 2006.08.23 10:25:00 -
[49]
It's not a exploit so stop complaining! If it was, CCP would have made changes or kicked members for using exploits.
If you are a AP player so be it. I don't have time for travel 16 jumps which takes me 3x more time then using insta's.
They need to come up with a other solution, as many are already given or keep it the way it is. If they remove the bm without a new alternive, many people will consider to leave.
Might it be that you hang around in a system with +300 peeps??? Ever been in Jita! Why are there so many people there causing lag. I still haven't figured out the fun of it, but I'm very sure it's not caused by insta's.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.23 10:47:00 -
[50]
Funnily enough, the arguments about instas are quite comparable to the arguments that were had when the highways were removed.
'zomg the world will end'
travel times too long, I can't get to Yulai in 4 jumps
etc.
And now they're gone, we have a distributed market.
I think instas _should_ just be removed. I appreciate that this is not a popular opinion, but there you go. Yes, it'll make travelling 20 jumps take longer.
But it'll also vastly increase the incentive to 'localize' production. So you're less likely to _have_ to travel 20 jumps, and when you do, you're having less competition.
Think about it for a moment. If everyone had instas, and there was a hub 5 jumps away, would anyone sell anything in that system? Nope, they'd shift to the hub to buy and sell, and suffer the round trip.
Now, if they didn't, and 5 jumps became a long way away, then you'd have a local demand. And so you'd quickly get a local supply, because it'd be more profitable than selling in the hub, where competition is fiercer.
There is a safety aspect, which I still don't really see a problem with. I spent 3 months running a starbase chain 15 jumps or so into 0.0. I did so in a badger MK II without instas. It's entirely possible to do. I stopped, because I got fet up with people doing the same thing in a fully expanded iteron, safer and faster.
Today, I do use instas. I dislike doing so, but the advantage that I lose by not doing so is just too pronounced. (Although I do still haul around 0.0 in a blockade runner). But I'd shed no tears at all if they all went.
Better yet, if the campers had to fly 20 jumps with their battleships, they'd also be much less likely to do so.
I _really_ think there should be a difference in travel times between the faster smaller ships, and the bigger slower ships. It'd become economically viable to fly your 'ceptor to Jita, buy whatever snackies you wanted, and then set up a courier mission to get them shipped to your end destination. Yes, it'd cost more, but everyone would have the same limitation.
Oh, and a jumpdrive freighter at the same time would be pretty sweet :).
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Dane Hur
Caldari
DaHOOD Communication
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:07:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Dane Hur on 23/08/2006 11:09:07
I have a hard time seeing the instas being the reason for the majority of the lag. Since I moved out of Motsu, to an area with less people, pretty much all of my lag problems have gone away, seems to me that the lag is caused by 100s of people running missions, where each missions spawns dozens of NPCs, but thats just me.
Keep the instas, I haven plenty of skills to waste my time and dont need another useless skill added to that list. And why is it that some pirates wants priating being dumbed down to just sitting at a gate waiting, those that need this much help getting kills, should find another profession.
Edit: I am all for a warp to 0 km, so BMs are only used for tactical reasons
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.
- Wilfred Owen |
madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:09:00 -
[52]
Edited by: madaluap on 23/08/2006 11:14:33
Edited by: madaluap on 23/08/2006 11:13:33
Originally by: Anemus Thuella
Edited by: Anemus Thuella on 23/08/2006 07:39:08
Edited by: Anemus Thuella on 23/08/2006 07:38:24
I know I'm a newb and sorry if this has been mentioned before but how about this for a solution.
Make Empire 0.5-1.0 gtg warps be 1-2km from gate on default setting.
Make 0.1-0.4 be 7-10km to give time for a bit of piracy.
And 0.0 would get the full 15km with deadspace added so no mwds on gate approaches.
Instas would work like they do now for all the other uses they have, safe-spots, insta-dock/undock etc.
This would greatly reduce the amount of bookmarks, add more PvP in 0,4-0,0 systems and not mess up the game-mechanics too much. You could even make it part of the fiction saying that CONCORD has upgraded all gates with bubble-tech reducing the travel-time for Empire-inhabitants and protecting the public from pirates by slowing down their incursions into civilized areas with the added dead-space.
Edit.
I saw your post on 0.0 alliances choking EVE, But couldn't this be solved with more entry points into 0.0? Or maybe Empire residents could create those cynosaurual-thingies and jump into remote, not patrolled areas set up a POS and attack from behind. Or am I missing something here?
WOW That is a bad idea
So empire gets:
1.saver
2.faster to travel
0.4-0.1
1.easier to avoid getting killed
2.faster to travel
0.0
1. will be totally ******, because people cannot use a mwd , so my mega cant mwd, my inties cant mwd around the gate, nothing can mwd in 0.0 near a gate?
2. So the place where people have absolutely the most measures to get people into pvp will be made not more dangerous, but simply suicidal.
Serieusly i have been choking in interdictors and bubbles and i can tell you that catching a target in 0.0 is really one of the easiest things...compared to 0.1 and higher.
and yeh offcourse let the carebears make cynofields so they can instajump from 1.0 15 jumps into 0.0 and setup a pos...and mine trit all day long.
Edit:
But we can allways strike a deal Every player in a war gets a undock button, so the enemy has to log or after 15 minutes he becomes vunerable to the auto-undock button.
If a player presses this button the target will undock in its current ship and cannot redock for 5 minutes. (scotty the manager says: "go fight you carebear")
Also there is a 50% chance of scotty refusing docking permission for 2 minutes every time someone in war undocks.
_________________________________________________
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:11:00 -
[53]
Bookmarks should need to be stored in a repository at a station. If you have positive faction in the region dictates how many insta's you can have stored in your station in that region. The *places* part of People and Places would be moved into the scanner and you would have to *check out* your instas and load them ( in limited number ) into your ships scanner.
Corps should get their own dedicated repository for *sharing* bookmarks where their office is. There would be no more player trading of bookmarks. Corp bookmarks would need roles to not only *check out* a bookmark but to *check in* one too.
Then... A warp to 5km should be introduced... not a 0km.
Team Minmatar
Carriers need Clone Vats
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Anemus Thuella
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: madaluap
WOW That is a bad idea
So empire gets:
1.saver
2.faster to travel
0.4-0.1
1.easier to avoid getting killed
2.faster to travel
0.0
1. will be totally ******, because people cannot use a mwd , so my mega cant mwd, my inties cant mwd around the gate, nothing can mwd in 0.0 near a gate?
2. So the place where people have absolutely the most measures to get people into pvp will be made not more dangerous, but simply suicidal.
Serieusly i have been choking in interdictors and bubbles and i can tell you that catching a target in 0.0 is really one of the easiest things...compared to 0.1 and higher.
and yeh offcourse let the carebears make cynofields so they can instajump from 1.0 15 jumps into 0.0 and setup a pos...and mine trit all day long.
Edit:
But we can allways strike a deal Every player in a war gets a undock button, so the enemy has to log or after 15 minutes he becomes vunerable to the auto-undock button.
If a player presses this button the target will undock in its current ship and cannot redock for 5 minutes. (scotty the manager says: "go fight you carebear")
Also there is a 50% chance of scotty refusing docking permission for 2 minutes every time someone in war undocks.
Hey, I've never been to 0.0 so what do I know :)
My thinking behind my idea was to get more PvP in 0,0 which I understand is lacking at the moment. Balance the gate-camping thing with the cynos-thing and more entry points to 0,0 space so that 0.0 becomes more of a free for all. By making the 0,1-0,4 systems a bit faster/safer it would force more pirates out in 0,0 to find good prey. Fast/safe travel in civilized-space should be added on RP-grounds alone I feel :)
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Alberta
Gallente
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: DemonStar Supernova
Edited by: DemonStar Supernova on 23/08/2006 07:24:05
Ok. I havent posted on this topic before and I dont plan on posting on it again. And so I dont get angry quotes, this is aimed mostly at the OP.
People complain about large corporations hoarding vital items and having complete non-dispuited control over certain reigions and ded-spaces. Everybody knows that a 15km warp makes you wrechedly vulnerable to attack forces larger than yourself, especially if youre in a situation where you have to travel alone. Every reigion has only a few chokepoints of entry.
So, you wanna kill instas and not propose an alternative? Well guess what, you just gave every large alliance executive control of almost 60% of the surface space of eve, and they can protect those small chokepoints with an incredibly small group of ships. Why? Because everybody and their momma has to slowboat straight up to a blob.
You wanna whine about server loading times? How about knowing that every single empire based person in eve is forced to stay exactly where they are until they join a corp that already has a ridiculous amount of power by owning an entire reigion, unchecked and unchalenged. Rather than having to defend 50 systems, they have to defend 3.
Youre proposing the end of reigional warfare, the end of a fair and competitive economy, and the end of a free and open eve. You wanna save the servers and eliminate 0.0 in the process. Until you can propose a better idea, rather than ranting about increased server load, then youre ideas are useless to me, and everyone in eve that chooses to step foot outside empire.
Truth be told, I live in 0.0. I could care less about travel times. I use Instas to travel through several incredibly hostile reigions just to get a hauler full of ammo to my battleship. The second I open that hauler up to any ship that may just happen to wander up behind me, my supply lines are completely cut. No modules, no ammo = no playing.
All I can say is thank god youre not a Dev. Until a reasonable solution (*Im in the navigation skill camp*) can be integrated, either I have my instas or CCP doesent have my money.
Well thanks for that little outburst Chicken Little. Don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on what being in the "navigation skill camp" means to you. What exactly would it involve more than just adding a new skill which lets you warp on top of objects at lvl5?
If that's all there is to it then it's already been shot down several times over in the S&M forum, I'm afraid. Personally I'm more in favour of the module approach. I don't think there's been a version of this suggested which has convinces the dev's it would be able to address all the issues yet though.
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Serapis Aote
TBC
Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:32:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Copying BM's no longer causes lag. It just takes ages because it's low-priority. That's a temportary way of REDUCING the issue.
It needs changing..but making the player more vulnrable by default is NOT the only way of doing it. 0km warp / new active ways to catch also fills Oveur's requirements.
Where is your quote that it no longer causes lag.
He exactly said that they wanted something to make players more vunerable. You just dont like that idea.
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Gretchen Dawntreader
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:36:00 -
[57]
an insta is a set of 3 x,y,z coodinates in space of a certain system. That's all it is, data. And a very small amount of data, unless someone decided to keep 3 million decimal places or something.
So the storage of a lot of bookmarks may be a data storage issue but as far as a server strain, frankly I do not believe that, even if someone puts it in a dev blog.
Note that the recent underhanded fleet tactic of jettisoning thousands of bookmarks to cause local lag would be due to the sudden appearance of *many many new system objects in space.* Not due to many many items in someone's People & Places, or even in cargo prior to jettison, if so the lag bomb would not be caused by the containing ship jettisoning them into *object space* or being blown up and spilling them out into *object space.*
Bookmarks are data. Data is just data and doesn't cause lag or server strain. This is a popular myth and I'm surprised frankly that CCP upholds it.
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Gretchen Dawntreader
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:44:00 -
[58]
note that I probably have more data in the form of hundreds of notes in the ingame notepad than I do in my 200 or so sets of bookmarked coordinates. Gonna nerf notepad?
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Moghydin
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:46:00 -
[59]
In my opinion, instas have to go. May be it's not a major lag cause, but this factor will only increase. Instas are mostly added and nearly never deleted. In many cases, it's a "must have" thing, just like some kind of navigation skill would be, if the devs will ever create it. The best solution is to shorten the warp-in distance to 5-7km. That's it. You aren't warping at 0km for an insta jump, and you aren't forced to see your ship go BOOM if you have no instas. Large enough gate camp still have a chance to blow up the traveller (especially if bubbles are present), and slow and massive ships can be caught on the other side of the gate by tacklers.
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Jackkal
Order of Melekel
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:47:00 -
[60]
stop gate griefing people and there would be no need for gate insta's
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:48:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Gretchen Dawntreader
an insta is a set of 3 x,y,z coodinates in space of a certain system. That's all it is, data. And a very small amount of data, unless someone decided to keep 3 million decimal places or something.
So the storage of a lot of bookmarks may be a data storage issue but as far as a server strain, frankly I do not believe that, even if someone puts it in a dev blog.
Note that the recent underhanded fleet tactic of jettisoning thousands of bookmarks to cause local lag would be due to the sudden appearance of *many many new system objects in space.* Not due to many many items in someone's People & Places, or even in cargo prior to jettison, if so the lag bomb would not be caused by the containing ship jettisoning them into *object space* or being blown up and spilling them out into *object space.*
Bookmarks are data. Data is just data and doesn't cause lag or server strain. This is a popular myth and I'm surprised frankly that CCP upholds it.
You say this while looking under the hood at their tables and python code? No? Then where is your myth-buster proof? It certainly isn't in this thread... maybe you should give Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman a call to break this one.
Team Minmatar
Carriers need Clone Vats
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Bhaal
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.23 11:56:00 -
[62]
At this point in time I think CCP needs to just go to the 0km warp to option, and then just liberalize the usage of warp disruption modules & such.
We'll of course need some kind of warp bubbles for low sec empire and empire wars.
I hate insta's. I hate not having the right ones, copying the damn things, the way they break some PvP aspects of the game etc...
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Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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dabster
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.08.23 12:00:00 -
[63]
This thread is stupid, this is why:
People have known since *forever* that instas cause lag.
/me wishes he could delete the 5-6k he has on each both accounts. But I wont until CCP removes the need for them.
___________________________
Brutors Rule!
My Eve-vids; Click. |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.23 12:05:00 -
[64]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 23/08/2006 12:06:50
Originally by: Lucre
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
Perhaps new bubbles that work in empire, which have a reduced range and only catch war targets? (perhaps 5km) Also new ones for low sec with better than high sec ones but still worse than 0.0 (perhaps 7km) which catch all however the person who dropped them becomes aggressed no matter where they currently are as soon as someone is dropped into the bubble, so if they are in high sec their shuttle is destroyed, if they are docked they get undocked and attacked by sentrys. If they logoff the bubble goes inactive. If their current ship is destroyed the bubble goes inactive.
Anything i've left out?
This addresses the "catching people in Empire" part. Other bit that needs addressing is travel speed no longer being affected by ship speed (barring variations in base warp speed). Possible solution might be to have more variation in base warp speeds and to also have it affected by speed mods so "faster" ships still have better strategic speed, even with 0km warps.
Simple, move stuff closer together and increase the warp speed differential (is that the way to say it?).
Example: move Planet 1, station at planet 1 and stargate near planet 1, ALL within 100km of each other. This makes a lot of sense as why wouldn't you build stuff close together. This means in a fast ship you can just fly to the station/gate you are near, if you in a slow ship it take longer or you have to warp out and back. (which will take longer than a fast ship can do it (fast frig for example). Also make it so its not too far apart that a fast frig isnt encouraged to warp out and back to get there.
Next: make indys ect warp at current speed or slightly slower to make up for the 0km warp to option.
Make cruisers warp at same speed but the slow part of coming out of warp should be faster. make interceptors drop out of warp near instantly. This way interceptors get their proper place back in eve, intercepting ships. An interceptor should be able to easily overtake an industrial that is using instas. Currently it's not that simple if the indy has a headstart.
------------
i often feel like it doesnt matter what ship i'm in, every warp (even if its only 2,000km) still has this extended slowing down part which makes it feel like ive been warping for 30 seconds. this part should change imho.
Give different ships different travel times.
A giant fleet of battleships should not be able to travel as fast as a cruiser fleet (this means more fun for pilots cos they get to fly different ships in fleets :P).
OR
if a battleship fleet should be able to move as fast as they currently do across 20 jumps, then a cruiser fleet should be able to do the same trip in half the time.
edit: also having stuff in flying distance would mean we get to see ACTUAL TRAFFIC, not just ships undocking and warping to gates, then approach gate and jump (boring). If you have a popular gate next to a popular station say 15km apart you would see ships flying back and forth, much more intresting  |
merc999
Caldari
Turbulent Subversion
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Posted - 2006.08.23 12:06:00 -
[65]
Some one. some where on these forums suggested a reasonable alternative.... but I cant find it now..
Essential it would be a navigation skill
It would be a high ranked skill
with each level trained dropping you closer to the gate/stn till lvl 5 drops you within jump/dock range.
being high ranked it would mean that noobs would still be vunerable in 0.0 so not encouraged to go there till they have enough skills/experience to survive
MERC999 Public Relations Director TBSV
Keeping Empire and Syndicate ship builders in business |
BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.08.23 12:08:00 -
[66]
Originally by: dabster
/me wishes he could delete the 5-6k he has on each both accounts. But I wont until CCP removes the need for them.
QFT. Ordinary day to day living in Eve becomes unbarably tedious and difficult without them. Ergo, for me to continue playing, I need them in the absence of an alternative.
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Anti Protagonist
Gallente
Archron Dusyfe Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.23 14:33:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tohopka
What's pathetic about preferring a working, low-lag server over the hunk of crap we've had to put up with for the last few weeks?
So....you're saying that instas have only suddenly become a problem that's causing the past couple of weeks of lag? That'd be very false, since all the posts from GMs have said that it is database configuration issues that have been causing the lag and crashes, nothing to do with instas. So, complain about the use of "pathetic" all that you wish, but blaming instas for server issues just because it suits your agenda is pathetic.
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.23 15:19:00 -
[68]
a) Allow warp to 0km.
b) Allow interdictors to pull ships out of warp, using bubbles, in low-sec.
c) Allow bubbles in low-sec space also.
d) Limit the amount of bookmarks a user can have to 100.
\\ contact me in-game for sig-purchase \
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Fellhand
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Posted - 2006.08.23 15:22:00 -
[69]
Saw the blog teh first time and it's still wrong. Instas don't make you anything like invulnerable. I couldn't count the number of ships I've lost while alligning to warp.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
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Merdaneth
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Posted - 2006.08.23 15:25:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Fellhand
Saw the blog teh first time and it's still wrong. Instas don't make you anything like invulnerable. I couldn't count the number of ships I've lost while alligning to warp.
Without insta's you would probably have lost a hundred times that many ships (if you could afford it). It makes someone relatively invulnerable, as opposed to not using insta's.
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Exioce
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.23 15:27:00 -
[71]
while the recent horrible server may not have been all down to instas, i don't think anyone can say the removal of instas wouldn't improve performance significantly. and the only way to ensure everybody gets rid of their gate and station instas is simply to make them obsolete, which is to say implement a "Warp to 0.0 KM" option. not a perfect solution, but the best of the bad solutions, easiest to implement too. but there's a thread about that already on this page.
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DemonStar Supernova
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Posted - 2006.08.23 16:01:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Alberta
Well thanks for that little outburst Chicken Little. Don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on what being in the "navigation skill camp" means to you. What exactly would it involve more than just adding a new skill which lets you warp on top of objects at lvl5?
If that's all there is to it then it's already been shot down several times over in the S&M forum, I'm afraid. Personally I'm more in favour of the module approach. I don't think there's been a version of this suggested which has convinces the dev's it would be able to address all the issues yet though.
I personally was thinking along the lines of "advanced warp field projection". each level in the skill would have a distance modifier that would offer inside a range of 3km or so improvement of warp in, with a chance of failure. so level one would be a chance of dropping in 12-15km of a gate, with a random modifier on the exact distance. by level 5 the spectrum would run from 2500-15km. The skill would only affect warp ins to stargates, so no snipers warping to 100km to find themselves accidently deposited 30km off.
Chicken little? Yeah ok, go ahead and dispute any of my points and ill be happy to chat with you about them. Or, you could come out to my neck and try to fly through without instas to prove your point, afterall we always say when 3 xelas pilots die one BOB dies. So a BOB kill is always fun for the killboards. You wont last 3 systems, lesse how your opinions weigh in then.
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StarStryder
Wise Guys
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Posted - 2006.08.23 16:07:00 -
[73]
To be perfectly honest, I don't know why CCP haven't put in a warp to 0km option by now.
I know it maybe not be the ideal solution but it would allow exactly what everyone already does with instas anyway and would instantly lighten the DB load.
So long as they made it clear that that new functionality was simply a stop gap measure and might well be taken away again at a later date when they come up with a better solution, I don't see a problem.
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Tekka
Caldari
Dark Cartel
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Posted - 2006.08.23 16:07:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ben Derindar
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 22/08/2006 22:05:32
Yup, the game has changed a bit.
For example you have warp bubbles now.
We had warp bubbles then too.
And who used them at that time except you?
/me raises hand, since December 2004.
/Ben
Me too... Remember camping MHC in my crow with some friends I made back then.
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digitalwanderer
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.23 16:22:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Anti Protagonist
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
Are you implying that the problems with instas have magically gotten better within the past year?
On the contrary, considering server stability and lag, and the even greater dependency that junkies have on them, I'd argue for the opposite.
The problem's gotten worse! How about some "evidence" to contradict that statement, hmmmmmm?
Uhm....lets see. New DB structure, new DB server, new cluster.... Yeah, I'd say there's plenty that's changed that year+ old statements shouldn't be considered still accurate. How about some actual evidence that it is still a problem? The "lag" could as easily be attributed to the fact that there are many thousands of more players active now....
And you forgot to add that many of those new chars are also using a lot of Instas by now....For reference,i specifically know one char in particular that has no less that 20 000 instas,that lead in and out to pretty much every region in eve,and he's definately not the only one...
You basically can't keep adding hardware to try and patch a behaviour,that shoudn't be done to the extent as the above example,and even though the vast majority of those who do use them,may not have as many as the example i gave above,almost everyone who's been palying for a while has at least several hundred of them on average,so multiply that by the registered user base(140 000 users now),and it's beyond a doubt that it causes a lot of database lag,because it goes into the tens of millions of database entries just for BM's,used on a daily basis.
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Morgana Janan
GalacTECH Unlimited
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Posted - 2006.08.23 16:28:00 -
[76]
Any skill-related solution isn't a solution at all. It's just another week or three everyone has to train and we end up right back where we started. Imagine this "Warp Accuracy" skill was deployed today. Everyone and their mom is going to grab this skill immediately and train it up to level 5 just to function in 0.0 space... and so then in mid-September or October we get threads titled "WAAAAHH!!! WARP ACCURACY IS TEH DEVIL!!111 NERF IT!" Probably the same bunch of folks posting them, too.
Actually, deleting bookmarks would save massive space on the server. CCP wouldn't need to have entire systems created, just a series of nodes. The gates, the stations, the belts, the planets, and the moons. You warp, you load up that node, not unlike when you gate to the next system. We can't have a lot of big empty space in a space MMORPG, no siree Bob.
... yeah, it sounds stupid now, dosn't it?
And for all you folks who still think it sounds smart, fine, put your money where your mouth is. I want you guys to reimburse me for the stashes and stations I can no longer reach because I didn't put them anywhere near warp-in spots (I'm a big believer in inconviencing people trying to kill me).
The "no-BMs within 20km" of the gate idea has some merit, certainly more than the others. But it does make things a mite too easy for campers. As the victim of more than my share of camps (because I'm an idiot), I can attest that instas certainly don't make you invincible. Any camp worth it's salt is going to have interdictors and/or warp bubbles set up, or just be on the exit side of the gate.
Really, I'd be more than willing to support a good idea. So far I havn't seen any of those.
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When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. |
Cryptic Myst
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Posted - 2006.08.23 16:48:00 -
[77]
I use them mostly for the time savings in travel; also lets not forget instas do nothing for you when you jump the gate and the is a interdictor camp on the other side with crows and other assorted ships. Im sure if bms were nerfed we would find another way around the delima. |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.23 16:52:00 -
[78]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Copying BM's no longer causes lag.
Ahahahahahaha..
..proof?
Originally by: Maya Rkell
It needs changing..but making the player more vulnrable by default is NOT the only way of doing it.
Originally by: Oveur
Now, from my point of view, the far most important part of this equation is the near invulnerability during travel.
Something doesn't quite add up. Oh yes, your suggestion is the exact opposite of what CCP wants. I'm getting deja vu!
No, that's your spinning causing that.
Firstly, do you know what "low-priority" means? It means the node does that when not otherwise busy. This is why trying to copy BM's in say, Jita, simply dosn't work.
And the term is better "partial protection" than "near invulnerability", as discussed before. Regardless, there needs to be risk.
This can be done in several ways.
1. The traditional "players should be more vulnrable by default". 2+ years of looking for a way to apply this has come up with no good soloution.
2. The new "there should be new ways to interdict players". It fills the requirement, and it's a new and refreshing approach which I have come to agree with.
You're caught up in an old record.
James Lyrus, no, we have a few hubs. There is one LESS trade system than pre the split, and the markets outside those regions are less health..and declining, not improving. If you make traveling harder, people won't stop doing to the hub. They'll move closer TO the hub, making lag far worse.
"I _really_ think there should be a difference in travel times between the faster smaller ships, and the bigger slower ships."
There is. Travel time ratios are NOT grossly distorted by using instas.
One thing and one thing only keeps the markets penned - sell order limits.
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Nosferatu Zodd
Black-Sun
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Posted - 2006.08.23 22:30:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 22/08/2006 22:05:32
Yup, the game has changed a bit.
For example you have warp bubbles now.
Quoted from that blog :
So, this brings us down to the real question with instabookmarks, the one which we ask ourselves;
"How can we decrease the invulnerability factor while still keeping some amount of the travel time deacrease and safety of instabookmarks?"
We had warp bubbles then too.
I checked the market history and it goes back to 1 July 2005, that's one month after the dev blog was posted.
Maybe you didn't check the year? On 2006.05.30 most people had bubble's.
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Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
Jomero
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Posted - 2006.08.23 23:02:00 -
[80]
You guys are aware that in the official Eve Online Player Guide it tells you not only how to make insta bookmarks, but suggests it's also a great idea? You're aware of this, right? Yes? Hmmm?
Why would they leave this information here, especially accessible by new players, if it was a "bad thing?" Riddle me that, batman.
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g05.asp
Scroll down to the "Addressbook (AKA People & Places)" and read the section under Places.
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DropZone 187
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Posted - 2006.08.23 23:17:00 -
[81]
Snore. It is amazing how people with absolutely no clue whatsoever can make outlandish suggestions or claims to knowledge. So let me shed some info. If it is wrong, then please, Devs clarify as I am assuming that you are following industry best practices/standards for design
1. Bookmarks (instas or anything else) are unique items in the db and do eat up system resources on their own. This is contrary to regular items, such as ships and modules which are stored in their own table/db and linked to each player. So a person with 5000 shuttles will use up less system resources than a person with 5000 bms.
2. Moving the bms in cargo holds causes even more lag as the system resources now have to update each and every one of those unique items' locations. Going from one node to another further intensifies this. I am not sure as to the extent/if just traveling in space (i.e. orbiting something) would impact resources as it would depend on if CCP had the locations updated in real time, etc.
3. Changing the state of these bms also eats up system resources. i.e. Moving them from hanger to cargohold, cargohold to secure container, etc. This can be easily demonstrated by trying to open up a cargo hold with 500+ bms in it while in station or warping into a pos with many secure cans/shuttles/noob ships full of bms.
4. When the dev blog was published, it was mentioned that the majority of players had 100s of bms. That undoubtably has grown to the 1000s, plus added with the increased number of players, player alts, the overall impact is much higher than it was when the original blog was posted. As it was mentioned back then that bms use up system resources, there is no reason to believe that there has been some magic improvement made to the bms system since then. As such, if you think that the bms = resource statement is now not valid, then you are an idiot.
5. CCP has broken an unwritten rule in multiplayer persistant games where you don't let your userbase create unique content. The reason for the rule is quite simple - if you allow it, then a portion of your userbase will exploit it and use it to create a denial of service attack against your game. This is not anything new; it has been around since the MUD/MOO days all the way up through the UO series. It is also not the fault of CCP - the concept is good, it just wasn't implemented in the best fashion and now a solution has to be found.
So simply, the problem is to rid the game of bms/opportunities for the userbase to create unique content. Removing them at this point will put the community up in arms so a balance has to be found. Moving them client side is the remedy for both and allowing warp in at 0km will balance the playing field by reducing the unpopular for all travel time. The only group really affected are the low class pirate griefers, but they can always come out and play in 0.0 where they should be in the first place. Oh that is right, they don't have the skills to survive out here - b00 h00.
Oh and did I mention that it also reduces complexity?
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.23 23:25:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Gretchen Dawntreader
Bookmarks are data. Data is just data and doesn't cause lag or server strain. This is a popular myth and I'm surprised frankly that CCP upholds it.
You are right. Data just sitting there in a cell in a row in a table costs nothing to speak of.
Accessing that data is what causes lag and server load. You do want to use your bookmarks, don't you? Then they need to be accessed.
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Neon Genesis
Gallente
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2006.08.23 23:31:00 -
[83]
Really wish there were no instas at all. The 15km approach is a fundamental part of the game, or was and should be imo
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.23 23:33:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 23/08/2006 23:34:24
Originally by: Jomero
You guys are aware that in the official Eve Online Player Guide it tells you not only how to make insta bookmarks, but suggests it's also a great idea? You're aware of this, right? Yes? Hmmm?
Why would they leave this information here, especially accessible by new players, if it was a "bad thing?" Riddle me that, batman.
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g05.asp
Scroll down to the "Addressbook (AKA People & Places)" and read the section under Places.
It even tells you how to make instas.
Quote:
A very good use for a bookmark would be if you are often mining at the same belt. Instead of setting the bookmark at the location you want to mine, you can bookmark a position 15km beyond the asteroid in a line from the station that you are flying from, so when you warp to the bookmark from the station, you will stop right over the spot at which you want to be. The same can be done going back, setting the bookmark about 8km behind the station (stations are big, so you don't have to go all 15km away), with station directly in the flight line between you and your asteroid bookmark. Then next time you need to fly from the asteroid to the station, just select Warp to - 15km and you will end right at the station. Then simply right click on the station and select "Dock."
Anyone who cannot immediately see how this is applicable to gates and travel would be an idiot. CCP seems to have shot themselves in the foot with this one, and real good too.
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Paradice Lost
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Posted - 2006.08.24 00:39:00 -
[85]
You know, this whole database load and everything could be solved by 2 simple things. First thing is allow warp to 0m. Add an item for pirates that kills incomming warp bubbles at 15km (but allows outgoing which will keep the need for stabs and such)in a 360 degree circle around the gate, make it Concordable if used in 0.5 and up. It speeds up travel and doesn't change the game much if any for PvP players.
This can be achieved by doing something like coding it so your warp engines shut down when they hit this barrier, but it does not supress them from being activated again.
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Lonmax
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Posted - 2006.08.24 00:44:00 -
[86]
As an IT person on the network engineering side.... I don't know **** about programming. But from what I know in a database, there should be only 1 of every location.... and every person that has that bookmark jsut has a small pointer that points to the location.... if it is location 12336 then each person has a very small marker in hex that = 12336, and 12336 is a spot in the database that is much larger than hex12336.... is this game not written that way???
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DropZone 187
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Posted - 2006.08.24 00:54:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Lonmax
As an IT person on the network engineering side.... I don't know **** about programming. But from what I know in a database, there should be only 1 of every location.... and every person that has that bookmark jsut has a small pointer that points to the location.... if it is location 12336 then each person has a very small marker in hex that = 12336, and 12336 is a spot in the database that is much larger than hex12336.... is this game not written that way???
Nice thought, but no, it isn't like that. Or else you would have a very very large number of them as you would need one for each coordinate point in each system.....
But what you did bring up is that the warp to @ celestial object is probably like that. It works fine so your solution could be re-worded to support warp @ 0km :)
Sorry for twisting, but in a round about way it is the same thing.
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Azerrad
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Posted - 2006.08.24 01:45:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Morgana Janan
Any skill-related solution isn't a solution at all. It's just another week or three everyone has to train and we end up right back where we started. Imagine this "Warp Accuracy" skill was deployed today. Everyone and their mom is going to grab this skill immediately and train it up to level 5 just to function in 0.0 space... and so then in mid-September or October we get threads titled "WAAAAHH!!! WARP ACCURACY IS TEH DEVIL!!111 NERF IT!" Probably the same bunch of folks posting them, too.
Personally I'd rather waste a week training a skill than waste a week copying bookmarks.
Originally by: Morgana Janan
The "no-BMs within 20km" of the gate idea has some merit, certainly more than the others. But it does make things a mite too easy for campers. As the victim of more than my share of camps (because I'm an idiot), I can attest that instas certainly don't make you invincible. Any camp worth it's salt is going to have interdictors and/or warp bubbles set up, or just be on the exit side of the gate.
No BMs within 20km just forces the bookmarks to be at 30km and warp to 30km instead of 15km. It doesn't change a single thing. Also, interdictors/warp bubbles don't function in low sec or empire space (there is pvp in empire as well).
Best solution I can come up with is no BMs within 115+km of the gate and change the lowest warp to distance to 5-10km. That way travel is sped up a bit and people aren't invulnerable. You could force autopilot to be 15km from the gate and still allow manual warping to be 5-10km from gate to give an advantage to the people who aren't afk jumping as well.
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