Innate damage increase would also enable fitting of tracking enhancers, instead of 3 damage mods.

Current situation is:

Fit damage mods -> Hit nothing;
Fit TEs -> 1 logi cruiser shuts down your damage.

But even if you do manage to overcome their logi, why fly a battleship with TEs in the current meta? Just get a cruiser, which has the same or even better DPS, perfect damage application, warps faster, locks faster, great nanufaget platform, and with EHP probably equal to a battleship if you account for sig tanking.

Heroic cruiser combat. (a+ç -á-¦ -ƒ+ä-£ -í-¦)a+ç

To point out, 1 logi will out rep three rail megathron equipped for damage. That issue is not with battleships but with logistics being overpowered.

How many logi should be required to outrep 1 mega for it to be balanced?

To point out, 1 logi will out rep three rail megathron equipped for damage. That issue is not with battleships but with logistics being overpowered.

What James said is correct.



What do you people think of this idea?

To point out, 1 logi will out rep three rail megathron equipped for damage. That issue is not with battleships but with logistics being overpowered.

Yes, but by outsourcing reps onto a cruiser, isn't the logi a priority target, which is softer than the ships it supports?

Do we want self sufficient throns to outfight an equal number of BS that rely on logi support?

I wish that in Eve, there was diminishing returns on logi, so much that no matter how many you had, they could never prevent the destruction of a ship in fleet, but at best, buy that ship a little more time before it goes boom. Fights would be much more chaotic. Many more ships would blow up, on both sides. Did I mention I like stuff that blows up?

Eventually I'd like to see huge fleet fights where every individual pilot has to start making every move count, such as whether to shoot at a primary target that they expect to yield little result with, or to shoot at another target which they are more certain will inflict more damage in the long run. While not strategically sound, it would be a lot of fun to be flying through a huge battle with munitions flying in all directions, not just everybody focused on one single target.

It's in human nature to seek the most return in exchange for the least effort.

If we were to diminish the capabilities of logi, which may not be a bad idea at all, then we would need to balance that somehow.

Perhaps if we limited how many ships could lock onto each hull size, so a BS only needed to worry about a limited number of ships for an alpha.

I also like to see results from my efforts, but at the same time I don't want to pop in the first 20 seconds of an encounter either.

I am somewhat leery of any idea which changes the fittings so radically, and for only one class. I also worry about the ships with 7 turrets being seriously over or under powered if this isn't taken into account (looking squarely at the megathron and machariel). It probably also forces a fittings change on several battleships so that you can't get an octuple plated abbadon or other really messed up scary fits.

On the upside, it would bring a sharp uptick in reasons to bring battleships, even if it is at the expense of some of the better ships right now.

Let me lock my friends to be sure the enemy can't lock them... We need more drone doctrine not using their high slots to put a few passive targetter for additional "defensive" locks...

Taking the Megathron with 7 Turrets as an example:

Mega has 7 * (1/(1-0.25 RoF bonus)) = 9.33 Effective turrets, by reducing the Turret hardpoint count to 4, we get 5.33 Effective turrets, so to compensate that, a 75% Role damage bonus brings it back to 9.33.

Taking the Megathron with 7 Turrets as an example:

Mega has 7 * (1 / (1 - 0.25 RoF bonus)) = 9.33 Effective turrets, by reducing the Turret hardpoint count to 4, we get 5.33 Effective turrets, so to compensate that, a 75% Role damage bonus brings it back to 9.33. ...

You are describing a work-around to create a sensor jamming effect.

You make a good point with that, but at the same time, for each friend you protect in this manner, you are able to target one less opponent.

Would that trade off be a good or a bad thing?

It's not good or bad but just stupid to give such tool to some doctrine while it is absolutely impossible to replicate with anything else but drone fleet because they can't reach the same number of locks available. Any BS without 2 utility high won't reach the 12 target cap which is way beyond what you would need to follow basic fleet target calls who would probably stop at 4 if not before that.

important : I made a misstake, it's auto-targetting systems that are needed not passive one but the problem is still there. Turret and missile ship absolutely can't counter this unless they sacrifice their DPS.

Yes, but by outsourcing reps onto a cruiser, isn't the logi a priority target, which is softer than the ships it supports?

Do we want self sufficient throns to outfight an equal number of BS that rely on logi support?

What I want is to kick logi in the nuts in these large fights so we get much bloodier battles. Right now once you have a critical mass of logi then there is no amount of firepower that will break your fleet.

Seriously, go fight a super fleet with any subcap. It doesnt matter how many pilots you bring.

So let's recap. Battleships are nearly useless outside of L4 Mission in High Sec and running Incursions and structure bashes and some other limited PVE aspects(ratting/anoms).
Although, they may not be the best choice for some of those activities, they are at least functional in those.
Did I miss any area where they are useful?

They suck because they are horribly slow. They cost way too much to build/buy in general and in comparison to cruisers they are much more expensive in price per effectiveness for pvp, thus they are very rarely used. They are easy to hit by Dreads and pretty much anything smaller. They can't really hit cruisers and below with their primary weapon systems and Battlecruisers are hardly used so one of the few things they can reliably hit is hardly ever seen. And the new T3 Destroyers can easily scan them down and eat them for lunch.

I'm sure I'm leaving a few things out, but that's mostly what I got out of reading this thread so far.

Suggested stats for navy caldari and minmatar hulls are up in the working space.
Offcially supporting the changes contained in the OP of battlecruiser application bonus thread as the way to go to make CBCs worth flying, and part of a holistically balance sub-cap environment which includes all sizes of sub-caps.

May get other navy hulls done yet this morning.

So, to my casual and fanatical readers, I pose a question.

Should the navy domi double down on drones, as I dislike the current split bonuses (thinking drone speed increase in place of hybrid bonus) or turn into a total brick, similar to the SNI, by swapping the drone bonus for an armor resist bonus?

Non sentry drone speed and tracking because armor resist is an amarr thing.

I actually like the split bonus on the Navy Dominix. It gives the younger Vexor pilots an idea on how this ship would be if they train for it.
And she will not be entirely useless once all the drones have been destroyed.

I actually like the split bonus on the Navy Dominix. It gives the younger Vexor pilots an idea on how this ship would be if they train for it.
And she will not be entirely useless once all the drones have been destroyed.

*snipping the good stuff to smoke later*
The big issue i have is with the fleet cane. The whole "its the old cane" irks me alil. There is no more "old cane" anymore, the old cane died with TE and speed nerf, now its just an overpriced husk of its former self. Every other faction BC has tracking/application bonuses, except the cane. Stuck with the same dmg/rof bonus as the t1 version. I would rather see the fleet cane look something like this:
*more good stuff snipped to the stash*