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Solution to the bookmark madness

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TWD TAOSP	Posted - 2006.08.30 08:40:00 - [1] Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players.
Angry Sheep Amarr Aur0ra	Posted - 2006.08.30 08:42:00 - [2] I prefer previous solutions: 1. remove the column with 'no of jumps to' in it - this seems to always have to update and is irrelivant. 2. As previous make maybe corp BM folder 3. Make copying a station service as per industry, you select your folder or BM to load, select a slot and pay. On date 'x' they become available It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.30 08:42:00 - [3] While were at it, after that bookmarks should be shared per corp. Result; Less BMS in the DB (No need to store all 100 corp safespots for each of the 50 members), less lag (No need to copy all 100 bms 50 times, simply make them and use them) and it would be pretty damn useful ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.30 08:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Angry Sheep 1. remove the column with 'no of jumps to' in it - this seems to always have to update and is irrelivant. Actually that column is uber, i can instantly view how far i am from the nearest location agent, corp office or plex that i can *****. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:08:00 - [5] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 30/08/2006 09:07:59 Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. You forgot that it removes the prerequisite hours of copying/making instas before heading to a new region. The fact that this hasn't been done means either it is impossibly difficult to implement, or CCP are just thick. ----------
Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:11:00 - [6] /signed Simple, effective and represents the current realities in EvE, not the "utopia" they are hoping for.
Miyau Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:16:00 - [7] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. Removing all bookmarks within 150km of the gate would remove a lot of tactics from PvP. Terrible idea. Warp at 0km would also make it too easy to safely travel anywhere in the game. At least with instas you have to prepare by getting the bookmarks.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:17:00 - [8] Enough with the bookmark threads. The devs already know people want something done, but anything they do has good and bad that needs weighing up so we don't need 10 suggestions a day. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Darius Shakor The devs already know people want something done. And yet nothing is done or has been done. Instead they spend time working on spiffy new stuff, asian servers and nerfing other things ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Darius Shakor The devs already know people want something done. And yet nothing is done or has been done. Instead they spend time working on spiffy new stuff, asian servers and nerfing other things Read further into my post Josh. I know you can. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3

Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:23:00 - [11] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. The above has been suggested before, and truth be told looks "ok" to me. I'm the best Bookmark maker in Eve (others make more, but my quality is better than anyone else. I do not sell my BMs on the public market). I "like" that BMs give meaning to forward scouting. "Recon" in the TRUE meaning of the word. Getting rid of Instas will eliminate this valuable aspect of the game (Doubt terrain recon is important??? Read some history, almost any history, for example (one example of MANY) Rommel and his tanks and getting recon of ground conditions (not empty troops, but "ground" conditions, such as "can I drive tanks here?".....) Recon done long before a fleet reaches a system SHOULD have value. This has been vital sense Triremes, and will remain so, even in space. Having said all that, if BMs gotta go, the above is probably the best way. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Darius Shakor Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Darius Shakor The devs already know people want something done. And yet nothing is done or has been done. Instead they spend time working on spiffy new stuff, asian servers and nerfing other things Read further into my post Josh. I know you can. K i tried but i cant find anything. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Darius Shakor Read further into my post Josh. I know you can. Perhaps CCP should take this as a sign to act and not sit around banging their heads off a wall waiting for the "perfect" solution (which will never come) It's been how long? It's a viable and elegant solution from someone who knows the game and is not prone to posting any old thing. The worst that can be said for it is that "it makes travel easier and the universe small". Well so what? That's where we are now with instas because the alternative is not palatable for the playerbase. In short, stop procrastinating and do something about the root cause.
DigitalCommunist Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:33:00 - [14] While it solves the lag issue, it does nothing to solve the gameplay issue. Giving everyone 0km warp distance is just a replacement for what we have. What we have is utter crap, and should not exist. Period. Thus, its not a very good solution as it doesn't address several bad things about instajumps: - they make travel too safe - they make travel too fast - they cost nothing to use - they never fail Sorry TWD Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:35:00 - [15] Edited by: Darius Shakor on 30/08/2006 09:35:41 OK how about this: They remove bookmarks at any range to make instas. Problem solved? No. - Every trader and hauler pilot will moan about being easy prey for pirates, and every fleet commander will moan about taking too long to take his fleet 10 jumps. They introduce a warp to 0km option. Problem solved? No. - Because every pirate will moan about being nerfed and how eve is carebear country and the sky is falling. They introduce a random distance like they did on sisi once. Problem solved? No. - Just look back at the whining that generated anyway from both parties. Haulers want to be sure they are safe and pirates want to gank easily. And they don't want the other having their fill beacuse it is all me me me me in this game. They make it set to 15km again, and introdue a Skill and module to fit for insta travle. Problem solved? No. - Then the anti-skill mob come out of the woodwork and moan about another time sink. Anyone getting the picture yet on what the devs actually have to debate and think about? ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Kay Han Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:38:00 - [16] Originally by: DigitalCommunist While it solves the lag issue, it does nothing to solve the gameplay issue. Giving everyone 0km warp distance is just a replacement for what we have. What we have is utter crap, and should not exist. Period. Thus, its not a very good solution as it doesn't address several bad things about instajumps: - they make travel too safe - they make travel too fast - they cost nothing to use - they never fail Sorry TWD But you use them too, digi. if you remove instas, you have NO encounter to gatecamps Thats means less, battles in 0.0. less peeps overall in 0.0. You get bored and you quit the game ;) Like TWD said: Quote: I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. ___________________________________________ A wise man said once: 'Violence is the escape of the mentaly poor guys.'
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Kay Han if you remove instas, you have NO encounter to gatecamps Technically thats not true. Running around or through a bubble camp isnt all that hard. You just need to know the camp is there, then you can use a planet or safespot to warp to the gate from another direction. Obviously you wont get through without an MWD so indys would have to find another route but it works fine for friggys, ceptors, cruisers and battleships ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
PSEWAR Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:41:00 - [18] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. I also like the idea that bookmarks can only be copied in stations and a shared bookmark folder for the corp and all bookmark problems are removed. The solution really is that simple.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:41:00 - [19] Originally by: DigitalCommunist While it solves the lag issue, it does nothing to solve the gameplay issue. It isn't supposed to. The point of this solution is to keep the gameplay the same as it is now, but reduce server load. Hence having good effects, with no bad side effects. Originally by: Darius Shakor Anyone getting the picture yet on what the devs actually have to debate and think about? There really is nothing to debate with regard to this solution, as it is designed not to affect gameplay. ----------
Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.30 09:42:00 - [20] Originally by: Darius Shakor They introduce a warp to 0km option. Problem solved? No. - Because every pirate will moan about being nerfed and how eve is carebear country and the sky is falling. It's a pretty well known fact the danger to most players is on the exit side of a gate. I'm willing to lose easy kills on idiots slowboating into a gate, it's a worthwhile price. Read my previous post, a perfect solution isn't going to happen, 3 years later the dog is still chasing his tail.

Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 10:08:00 - [21] Edited by: Darcuese on 30/08/2006 10:10:14 Make BM copying impossible. Want them? .... Make them yourself. dont have them?...Make them yourself or fly with someone that have them for safer/faster journey. Lot less Lag in game. EDIT: For those that will say..."Its easy for you to say when you allready bought BMs before"... Well...Remove all BMs all remove location of gates/stations.....I dont care. Starting all over without them woudl certanaly make some things more interesting :) -------------------------------------------- Space available for advertising atm
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 10:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Darcuese Edited by: Darcuese on 30/08/2006 10:10:14 Make BM copying impossible. Want them? .... Make them yourself. dont have them?...Make them yourself or fly with someone that have them for safer/faster journey. What he said. When nerfing instas, spare a thought for the guys like me who actually DID spend many hours making their own BM's I also freely admit that I have bought several regions too, but 85% of my bookmarks are created by yours truly. Are you calling for all the time(Many hours) I have already commited to making these bookmarks to be have been for nothing? Bookmarks DO NOT NEED more nerfing. In 0.0 a bm only gets you as far as the next bubble. As for always creating corp ops to haul your stuff around: What a naive suggestion. In an ideal world we always have friendly helpful corpmates just waiting to drop everything to help me haul my shopping cart to and from Jita. However we live in the "Real World" in EVE, unless you can make it financially viable for most people you wont get much help(scheduled, mandatory corp ops being the only exception, provided your corp is well organised and tight knit) And for all your information, catching a wartarget/Prey in Empire is certainly possible, instas or no instas. People do it every single hour. Someone is out there doing it RIGHT THIS MINUTE instead of whining more on the forums. What I am in favour of is the Devs finding a way for BM's to cease being such a damn load on the server. Thats what the main problem is. If you are not able to catch your targets in empire then you are doing it wrong, only fast frigates are "Almost" uncatchable but they are usually not worth the bloody effort in the first place and secondly any decent inty pilot can get some points on em. Any viable target can be run down, bookmarks or no bookmarks. Originally by: Posidrive So technically being a pirate is't quite as easy as I thought after reading this guide.
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.30 11:47:00 - [23] I'm a BM ***** but I'm with TWD on this one.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.30 11:51:00 - [24] I'm actually with digi on this. Remove instas, no 0km warp to. Just about every ship in this game, with the exception of freighters and capital ships, can be made to go quick enough for reasonable travel time through gates. At the present time, a ships maximum speed has no bearing on travel speed. Merely agility and warp velocity. I don't like it like this. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.08.30 11:53:00 - [25] very hotly debateable issue with no clear outcome
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 11:55:00 - [26] twd is right, it would solve this huge problem. copying bms is the most frustrating aspect of the game, and its getting even far worse, warp to 0km is the best solution. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
rig0r 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:02:00 - [27] Agreed with TWD. Eve rocks on Linux
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:05:00 - [28] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. This is probably the best solution I've seen so far.
Burlock Ironfist Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:05:00 - [29] from the next patch you will only be able to copy 5 bm's at a time.... that will be fun! BOOBIES!
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:21:00 - [30] I might not understand whole concept, but i dont see why everyone should have option "warp to 0 km" given as present by CCP? Then you could be tackled and killed only when you jump out or ending in bubble while warping to gate (For low sec its not an option then). Im not sure how much problem for game itself existing bookmarks do. Im sure that process of bm copying itself is what cause big problems. So, for safer or faster journey, the one would have to spent time and effort to make BMs himself and not take it from someone else. Since its not very interesting work (pain in the a.s.s really)there will be many ppl that want eb able to warp to gate closer then 15km...so, lot more variaty then removing them and give "warp to 0 km" option. At least its my opinion -------------------------------------------- Space available for advertising atm

Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:32:00 - [31] Originally by: Darcuese I might not understand whole concept, but i dont see why everyone should have option "warp to 0 km" given as present by CCP? Because everyone who has a clue about avoiding PVP combat losses while travelling already has a "warp to 0 km" option by default. Quote: Im not sure how much problem for game itself existing bookmarks do. Im sure that process of bm copying itself is what cause big problems. Pvp combat dynamics make BM possession mandatory. Hence the expanding server population leads to more and more BM's and more and more copying thus nerfing your gameplay experience with lag and poor performance. Quote: So, for safer or faster journey, the one would have to spent time and effort to make BMs himself and not take it from someone else. Since its not very interesting work (pain in the a.s.s really)there will be many ppl that want eb able to warp to gate closer then 15km...so, lot more variaty then removing them and give "warp to 0 km" option.At least its my opinion Its a bad idea to make an enjoyable part of the game (pvp combat) dependent on a hideously boring and irritating part of the game (insta bm making). Can you imagine how popular a single-player space game game would be if you had to make insta-jump bookmarks to move around starsystems in a reasonable space of time? Its a naff part of the game. Time for it to go. _________________
Gunship Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:36:00 - [32] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. DONT MAKE STUPID STRAIT FORWARD SUGGESTIONS LIKE THIS, YOU ONLY PLAY THE GAME, SO S T F U !!!! Ohh yes and stop posting with your ALT you n0OB !!! So you want to join us?
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:39:00 - [33] Edited by: Darcuese on 30/08/2006 12:42:24 Well, many ppl dont have all needed boomarks no matter how PvP and expirianced they are . Since it is boring aspects of game, many ppl wont hastle with making them so they will fly without them in PvP rather then to "lose" time for making them. Maybe better choice might be to give "warp to 0 km" option only for main routes which are aspected ppl have Bookmarks for. But giving "warp to 0 km" option for each system will make harder when you chase hostile gang or something. I bet that not each member og that gang have all Bms....and often at least one member is a bit slower to catch gang warp. With him not having BMs he would be killed. If he would have option "warp to 0km", it wouldnt be a caise. I know that when you open ppl/places with many bms in it, it creat lag for a player for a few seconds. I just wonder if that lag would exist if option of copying bms anywhere in EVE would be impossible -------------------------------------------- Space available for advertising atm
Cavtrooper A.W.M Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:43:00 - [34] Remember that bookmarks are not only used for travel (Those this is what they are mainly used for). If you strip away bookmarks you lose the ability to set sniping points, observation points, and even safe spots. With the ever increasing range of weapons and tactics we need to be able to set our ranges. How can this be addressed also? Yea, Im too lazy for my sig
Havelcek Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.30 12:57:00 - [35] Edited by: Havelcek on 30/08/2006 12:58:03 Edited by: Havelcek on 30/08/2006 12:57:48 These suggestions don't address the most immediate problem with BMs, which is their creation as an exploit mechanism. We all know that shuttles full of BMs are parked in POSes to create artificial lag and CCP does nothing about it. The new patch fix of copying 5 at a time does absolutely nothing to fix this as a dedicated person can still create just as many bookmarks, just with a lot more clicking. So as usual, CCP penalizes the 98% without stopping the 2% of players. There are so many simple solutions to bookmarks that it almost makes my head hurt: 1) BMs can only be copied out of your P&P in a station 2) BMs cannot be placed in a ship hold, only in your station hanger Voila! Problem solved. Was that so difficult? If CCP really wants to fix their game, they could eliminate the code that requires my client to be made aware of everything in everyone elses' ship hold in the same vicinity as me, but that's just too simple a concept I guess. Why my client needs to be aware that PlayerX has 1200 BMs in his cargo hold is beyond me. null
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:01:00 - [36] WhatÆs the issue here. Instas or bookmarks? Firstly instajumps are pretty much a need for low sec and 0.0 travel, simple we know that, you know that and we all have æbookmarksÆ for that very purpose. So making a 0km warp-to is fine because nearly everyone does it anyway. Lets free the server from those system bmÆs and reduce some of this lag that plagues us. What about instadocks, pos bmÆs and of course safe spot bmÆs? I think bmÆs should only be made while your in warp and a pos bm should automatically be made when your alliance or corp sets up a pos etc. So many ideas have surfaced about this issue but I for one believe that Bookmarks are the issue here and not instas. However æinstas and stabs,Æ now that just sucks.
Megan Ryder VentureCorp CORE.	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:10:00 - [37] ok, whilst I can see the need to address the issues that bms have created, one of the aspects of bms that I have always liked is that having bms mapped gives you a localised advantage when travelling. Since the massive trade in bms has flooded escrow, this effect has lessened, but you still need time or money to travel safely/quickly through an area. Getting stuck in hostile territory, off your insta route, or investing time in bm'ing a regular trade route, not to mention the peeps that earn a living making bms. These are things that, I for one will miss, and I don't see anything proposed to save them. Several Possibilities... Region Maps - These would be un-copyable, dropped by npc's / agent rewards, tradeable via market or escrow. Having the current region map would improve your warp to stats. Sovereignty Bonus - Alliances would get bonuses in regions where they held sovereignty. Area of effect greater that single system, but with fall off. Home System Bonus - In accordance with the 'Systems I've Visited' display in the map. Any systems regularly visited would gain a bonus, with falloff over time. My main concerns with what may come is that it will have a global effect, irrespective of where you go. Some people may say that these ideas will favour the defender too much. Maybe, but they are counterable... Region maps, buy one if u can find the right region for sale or go npc'ing in the region Sovereignty, make a fast strike with pos' ready for deployment, this may not be that easy without the other two bonuses, but hey who said getting pos' into hostile territory should be easy? Home Systems bonus, sustain the attack, eventually this will equal out. My ideas are based on my experiences in 0.0, but I think they should be fit for purpose within empire, allbeit with the limitations of where pos' can be anchored. Addition: Region maps could be copied like blueprints, but should only be dropped in their own region, unless by a v. rare commander. NPC faction standings could also have an effect, ie travel through Gallente space would be hard for me, but this may cause too many probs for the pirates amongst us. Megan
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:12:00 - [38] One of the best ideas I have heard was: Warp to 15k - Alignment time + 0 secs Warp to 10k - Alignment time + [low additional computation time] Warp to 5k - Alignment time + [med additional computation time] Warp to 0k - Alignment time + [higher additional computation time] Or My idea ======= Set all warp to 0k Increase aligning time by factor of X (being a dev decided number) Click Me
nozaj	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:20:00 - [39] How about every Player is limited to say 100 BM's If you want new ones, you will have to delete others to make room. This way a Commander can still have instas for his fleet to get to X and everyone will be able to keep instas for their favorite routes, missions or ratting holes.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:27:00 - [40] TWD, with all due respect, I think you are wrong about a warp to 0 option. Whilst it would alleviate the server problems, it also legitimises a very broken game mechanic. If we are to allow players to insta-jump (and I am not sure that we should) then there must be a drawback to balance the advantage gained. Without this Eve remains fundamentally broken, with ship speed being nothing more than a filler statistic. Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Avon TWD, with all due respect, I think you are wrong about a warp to 0 option. Whilst it would alleviate the server problems, it also legitimises a very broken game mechanic. If we are to allow players to insta-jump (and I am not sure that we should) then there must be a drawback to balance the advantage gained. Without this Eve remains fundamentally broken, with ship speed being nothing more than a filler statistic. Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. I'd rather have EvE fundamentally broken but without the lag.
Masu'di Es and Whizz	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Infinity Ziona My idea ======= Set all warp to 0k Increase aligning time by factor of X (being a dev decided number) nice idea. have a warp to 15km option at normal alignment time, and the warp to 0km at something slower. would be still nice to see things beeing quicker for frigs and faster smaller ships. bms were never intended to be used the way they are, and now with the 5 bms at a time copying, it's going to hit the newer players really hard. particularly when they venture out into 0.0 and low security for the first time.
Serapis Aote TBC Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Darius Shakor Edited by: Darius Shakor on 30/08/2006 09:35:41 OK how about this: They remove bookmarks at any range to make instas. Problem solved? No. - Every trader and hauler pilot will moan about being easy prey for pirates, and every fleet commander will moan about taking too long to take his fleet 10 jumps. They introduce a warp to 0km option. Problem solved? No. - Because every pirate will moan about being nerfed and how eve is carebear country and the sky is falling. They introduce a random distance like they did on sisi once. Problem solved? No. - Just look back at the whining that generated anyway from both parties. Haulers want to be sure they are safe and pirates want to gank easily. And they don't want the other having their fill beacuse it is all me me me me in this game. They make it set to 15km again, and introdue a Skill and module to fit for insta travle. Problem solved? No. - Then the anti-skill mob come out of the woodwork and moan about another time sink. Anyone getting the picture yet on what the devs actually have to debate and think about? You could have 3 different systems. 1 for high sec empire - that is safe for haulers. I warp to 0k type thing. 1 for low sec - not an insta jump but much closer - a reason to use transport ships and fly with an escort in dangerous space. 1 for 0.0 is 15k warp in. Because of the added danger involved, and time involved. The rewards for operating in low sec and 0.0 should be increased dramatically to reflect the added risk. You can increase rewards by increasing bounties, increasing mission rewards and boosting the mineral needs of manufacturing to reflect the added value of 0.0 and low sec ore and stuff from moon mining and reactions.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Avon TWD, with all due respect, I think you are wrong about a warp to 0 option. Whilst it would alleviate the server problems, it also legitimises a very broken game mechanic. If we are to allow players to insta-jump (and I am not sure that we should) then there must be a drawback to balance the advantage gained. Without this Eve remains fundamentally broken, with ship speed being nothing more than a filler statistic. Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. I, for one, am completely lost. a) Warping to 0km is broken? I would argue warping to 15km is broken, done deliberately because CCP couldn't think of a better way to make you stop and actually fight people. b) Ship speed a filler statistic? WTS: Performance in combat? Also, align to warp time? c) Fast travel from an appropriately fitted ship: We are travelling using warp and stargates. The ship's sublight speed shouldn't even come into it. ----------
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.08.30 13:58:00 - [45] as a "temporary" solution (as temporary as the current one we have)... go with TWD's idea It is simple, fair, effective, less lag, less serverload. AFTER THIS work out a better way of travel/stargates as a whole ect ect. but DONT make us queue to get into systems, DONT make us copy bm's 5 at a time and DONT do stuff without telling us anymore. If you change something let us know and start doing it in evemails or something so we dont have excuses for dying after you change something because of what you changed (cloaks/queues for examples). We love you CCP but when you don't tell us stuff it's like you: leaving the seat up/down (whichever u find more annoying) putting the toilet paper roll on the wrong way (it rolls over the top and down not underneath and out for all you toilet noobs) etc Good communication will keep this marriage ...err i mean... game... going along smoothly.
Auman Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:00:00 - [46] Originally by: Avon TWD, with all due respect, I think you are wrong about a warp to 0 option. Whilst it would alleviate the server problems, it also legitimises a very broken game mechanic. If we are to allow players to insta-jump (and I am not sure that we should) then there must be a drawback to balance the advantage gained. Without this Eve remains fundamentally broken, with ship speed being nothing more than a filler statistic. Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. I'd agree with you if this was 3 years ago. But right now instas have been around for so long the functionality cannot be removed from this game without the forums exploding and probably lost subscriptions. A manual warp to 0km option wouldn't really change a lot for me. I have most of 0.0 bookmarked x3 and I'm hardly unique. Even with the recent nerf on copying all it's going to do is slow the increase. If deleting all those millions of instas would reduce lag then at this point we might as well do it.
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:00:00 - [47] Originally by: DigitalCommunist While it solves the lag issue, it does nothing to solve the gameplay issue. Giving everyone 0km warp distance is just a replacement for what we have. What we have is utter crap, and should not exist. Period. Thus, its not a very good solution as it doesn't address several bad things about instajumps: - they make travel too safe - they make travel too fast - they cost nothing to use - they never fail Sorry TWD For me who lives in 0.0 it wouldn't make any difference. Everyone use bookmarks and I can't remember the last time I killed something that warped 15km to the gate instead of insta. And yet I manage to kill players in 0.0 just fine. Why do you want it to cost isk, I don't get that. If travelling was faster people would move more and you would have more encounters. I think that removing bms would encourage newer players to explore eve instead of hiding in empire. Alliances would attack different regions without worrying about bookmark sets for every player that comes along. I can't see anything wrong with what TWD suggested, I would love it if we had it like that. Celes vs Xelas
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:01:00 - [48] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/08/2006 14:02:02 Again, a lot of people do not relise why CCP made this drastic action so quickly. This is because of semi-exploit techniques that are starting to be used as a real, genuine "I-Win" Buttons. Imagine having a gatecamp where the victims cannot do anything for 5mins+? Imagine a POS that is able to solo a entire fleet before they can even activate seige mode. These techniques are spreading fast and will ultimatly destroy pretty much any node in eve. CCP have to remove BM's? Not really - they just need to state that these semi-exploit techniques are bannable and thats it. Otherwise - they need a replacement fast. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Sarah Aubry Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:14:00 - [49] Originally by: Auman Originally by: Avon TWD, with all due respect, I think you are wrong about a warp to 0 option. Whilst it would alleviate the server problems, it also legitimises a very broken game mechanic. If we are to allow players to insta-jump (and I am not sure that we should) then there must be a drawback to balance the advantage gained. Without this Eve remains fundamentally broken, with ship speed being nothing more than a filler statistic. Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. I'd agree with you if this was 3 years ago. But right now instas have been around for so long the functionality cannot be removed from this game without the forums exploding and probably lost subscriptions. A manual warp to 0km option wouldn't really change a lot for me. I have most of 0.0 bookmarked x3 and I'm hardly unique. Even with the recent nerf on copying all it's going to do is slow the increase. If deleting all those millions of instas would reduce lag then at this point we might as well do it. Could you please post with your dev alt so we can get all excited that you have a solution? :)
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:16:00 - [50] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/08/2006 14:02:02 Again, a lot of people do not relise why CCP made this drastic action so quickly. This is because of semi-exploit techniques that are starting to be used as a real, genuine "I-Win" Buttons. Imagine having a gatecamp where the victims cannot do anything for 5mins+? Imagine a POS that is able to solo a entire fleet before they can even activate seige mode. These techniques are spreading fast and will ultimatly destroy pretty much any node in eve. CCP have to remove BM's? Not really - they just need to state that these semi-exploit techniques are bannable and thats it. Otherwise - they need a replacement fast. They could have solved it in another way. Restrict bookmark copying to when you are in stations or even better in npc stations. Celes vs Xelas

qrac Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:16:00 - [51] TWD's suggestion coupled with the alignment suggestion solves the problem imo. It'll also force gatecampers to maybe warp after the victim if he uses the longer range option to escape them faster at the jip. -------------------------------------------
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Pehova Mindtriq Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 30/08/2006 14:02:02 Again, a lot of people do not relise why CCP made this drastic action so quickly. This is because of semi-exploit techniques that are starting to be used as a real, genuine "I-Win" Buttons. Imagine having a gatecamp where the victims cannot do anything for 5mins+? Imagine a POS that is able to solo a entire fleet before they can even activate seige mode. These techniques are spreading fast and will ultimatly destroy pretty much any node in eve. CCP have to remove BM's? Not really - they just need to state that these semi-exploit techniques are bannable and thats it. Otherwise - they need a replacement fast. They could have solved it in another way. Restrict bookmark copying to when you are in stations or even better in npc stations. Makes little or no difference. I am not going to reveal the tactic here, as within 5 minutes, every gate around jita will get the supercamp, as there is no defence at all against the semi-exploit gatecamp. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.30 14:34:00 - [53] There shouldn't be insta jumps/docks at all anyway. Travel times too long? Fit your ship for speed then. The whole point of the speed penalty on cargo mods was to create a need to compromise between fast travel and cargo capacity. Insta's essentially erase this issue. Gate camps in your way? Either try to run it, get an escort to clear it out, find another route or try to negotiate passage. Safer travel? Get a scout or some escorts to check the way ahead. Setup your ship to suck up some damage or get more speed. Instas remove the need to interact with other players or try to find balances between needs (e.g. speed over cargo capacity) as well as basically having to use your brain. The real problems aside from the server realated issues is people have become used to being able to cross most of the galaxy in a very short time without travel setups and are now under the illusion that suvival in 0.0 is impossible without them. Having been and survived in 0.0 quite happily for quite some time without them I already know how wrong this is. I've been killed traveling through 0.0 solo in a battleship or similar before, but these all came down to me being careless and not using scouts etc. The warp to 0km may help reduce the issues with insta bms but it will make ships such as inties, pods, shuttles and nano fibred/wcs indies untouchable. Eve isn't meant to be safe, it's meant to be a challenge. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.08.30 15:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Avon Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. I agree and this is why I support a Navigation Mod solution. A module dependant on the existing navigation skill would force pilots to decide whether fitting their ship for this option is a priority. Navigating to within a few kilometres of any target has strategic consequences outside of travel in any case. Many blaster boat pilots would love to get their hands on a faction navigation mod that allows extremely close range warp in. This would then have benefits for the trade side of the game, by adding a new range of high demand named mods into loot tables. Carebears will queue up for their top named navigation mods, like they do with cargo expanders. A mod like this meets all the other requirements for a good alternative to BM's but goes further by adding better balance, choice and variety to the game.
Dorah Hawkwing Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 16:20:00 - [55] The problem with removing current instas without replacement is that currenty low sec sentry'sare broken, as due to long range ammo gate snipers can camp gates with maximum gang + minimal lock time without fear of retaliation by the gate sentry's. Also, current snipers are out of optimal + falloff of sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors. here lies the true problem. The tools to deal with snipers are reduced to doinga s niper fit yourself, and the in-game mechanism of 'pirate at gate and face sentry's' is broken due to snipers being able to ply their traed out of rang. And yes, Sentry's need a scramble strenght of 4, range 250 km.
Dukath	Posted - 2006.08.30 17:02:00 - [56] sorry twd: but this idea just sucks. Warp to 0 is not an option. Instajumps cause a lot more problems than just the amount of bookmarks lazy people make. They take away a core element of eve online. The fact that you need to make decisions while playing. Will i fit a but of extra tank or will i fit a bit more speed? More cargo? More guns? .. Instajumps remove a very large part of this decision with as result that people simply fit extreme setups. All low stabs, all low expanders, pure gank, ... Why? Because getting at your destination is just as fast as it would be when you fitted for travel. That is what is wrong with instajumps. Not the fact that they lower travel time per se, but that they completely remove a core decision in eve-online. And that is the main reason why warp to 0 without any serious drawbacks is not an acceptable solution.
ElCoCo Gallente KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.08.30 17:18:00 - [57] Agreed with TWD here. Just curious as to the ammount of server power we'll be saving if the instaBM's are removed.
Nerkal	Posted - 2006.08.30 17:24:00 - [58] The thing is bm's have been inn the game since the start. Wheter people like it or not its a huge part of the game. Travel times are allready long. Removing them or nerfing copying is daft for this sole reason. The dev's know it and that's why they havent been nerfed acordingly before. Removing them will lead to more blobbing, more equals to safer. Nerfing the copy'ing will sqrew over the newer players wich dont have them. It will lead to less activity inn 0.0, traveling now becomes a hazzard. Whining that you cant kill stuff because they use insta jumps is daft. A small bubble to drag people out of warp is cheap, they can bee thrown away like candy. Not to mention that you can have tacklers on both sides of gates Twd's solution solves both the problem with lagg and travel times.
thoth foc Destructive Influence	Posted - 2006.08.30 17:29:00 - [59] Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Avon TWD, with all due respect, I think you are wrong about a warp to 0 option. Whilst it would alleviate the server problems, it also legitimises a very broken game mechanic. If we are to allow players to insta-jump (and I am not sure that we should) then there must be a drawback to balance the advantage gained. Without this Eve remains fundamentally broken, with ship speed being nothing more than a filler statistic. Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. I'd rather have EvE fundamentally broken but without the lag. tbh.. /signed ppl can argue about game design until the cows come home.. but what we effectively have now is a warp to 0km option in the form of BM's.. so what TWD suggests isnt a hugh change of design, but fixing a system everyone is used to already.. >: )
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 17:51:00 - [60] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Avon TWD, with all due respect, I think you are wrong about a warp to 0 option. Whilst it would alleviate the server problems, it also legitimises a very broken game mechanic. If we are to allow players to insta-jump (and I am not sure that we should) then there must be a drawback to balance the advantage gained. Without this Eve remains fundamentally broken, with ship speed being nothing more than a filler statistic. Fast travel should come from using an appropriately fitted ship. It is not a right, it is an option. I'd rather have EvE fundamentally broken but without the lag. tbh.. /signed ppl can argue about game design until the cows come home.. but what we effectively have now is a warp to 0km option in the form of BM's.. so what TWD suggests isnt a hugh change of design, but fixing a system everyone is used to already.. With a module based solution you can still have all the benefits of warp to 0km IF YOU FIT YOUR SHIP TO DO SO. That is compromise. I can live with insta-jumps if they come with a drawback, but without that compromise we still have a broken system. Very broken. People complain about having to 'nerf' their setup if they need mods to insta, but should we really listen to them? Do they want a better Eve, or are they looking out for their own selfish desires? It isn't like Warp to 0km wouldn't be good for me, of course it would. However, that still doesn't mean I want it. Easy mode for all sounds like a good plan, until you realise that means making things easier for the already more powerful groups. If they become more efficient, it makes things harder for those who think they will benefit. Warp to 0km without suitable compromise is a mistake, not because I fear it, but because I know what I could do with it. Think about it. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:02:00 - [61] I would prefer warp to X km + Random(10000) km off gates and a ship module that reduces the random off range. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
R0ze Hounds of Basgerin	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:08:00 - [62] I dont really get how the BMs are now a problem from the technical point of view. Is there a lack of DB server resources (well I understand without knowing the whole architecture its just speculation)? Maybe somebody could explain.. From my point of view BM is kinda a single db record which holds like solarsystem / owner id and coordinates. The problem could be to always calculate the jump ranges to different solarsystems (by taking the autopilot settings in note) on the other hand the distances between 2 solarsystems is more or less static (offload it to the client if is that hard for servers). So lets say there are 10 mil users for example each has average ~100 BMs (to know the real stats could be interesting) having a db with 1 bil indexed records isnt that problematic or MS SQL can't handle that?
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:13:00 - [63] Delete all bookmarks within 50km of a gate. Leave the 5 at a time restrictions to copying. Defualt warp to distance set at 5km Done. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
R0ze Hounds of Basgerin	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:15:00 - [64] And the next will be delete all assets / cargo contents which havent been used for a month? No DB data - no problems..
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:18:00 - [65] Originally by: R0ze I dont really get how the BMs are now a problem from the technical point of view. Is there a lack of DB server resources (well I understand without knowing the whole architecture its just speculation)? Maybe somebody could explain.. From my point of view BM is kinda a single db record which holds like solarsystem / owner id and coordinates. The problem could be to always calculate the jump ranges to different solarsystems (by taking the autopilot settings in note) on the other hand the distances between 2 solarsystems is more or less static (offload it to the client if is that hard for servers). So lets say there are 10 mil users for example each has average ~100 BMs (to know the real stats could be interesting) having a db with 1 bil indexed records isnt that problematic or MS SQL can't handle that? We are all a bit fuzzy on the problem exactly. But let me run you thru a few things. Players commonly have 10's of thousands of bookmarks. I do, and I despise them. They are simply required. So 10,000 or more BMs per player, times 20k players online, times updating 10k bms per jump thru gate. Times hundreds of players copying thousands of bookmarks all the time. Thats a few million IO operations on the DB server every few hours. That of course doesn't even look at escrow, market, hangers, cargo etc etc etc. The DB has a limited amount of IO operations possible in a given minute. (the current db server is something like 10,000 a second) Bookmarks, and the related crap that come with them use alot of those IO operations. Slowing everything else down. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:22:00 - [66] Originally by: R0ze And the next will be delete all assets / cargo contents which havent been used for a month? No DB data - no problems.. You need certain things to make a game. Items is one of those things. Bookmarks are not. Bookmars aren't important. The functionality they provide is. There are many ways to get the same functionality. For instance, you could integrate the new scanner into the travel system and if you want to "insta" to a gate, you have to scan the gate for x seconds first. Say, thirty seconds, and you can't do it while cloaked. But at the same time, this would change alot of other things. You could also, using the scanner, allow players to warp to anything their scanner can see. (you'd have to screw with max range of the scanner to make this work, it would need to be shorter) Thereby, you don't need BMs to find your cans again. But at the same time, anyone else can show up there at any moment. The suggestions you see in this thread mostly only deal directly with insta travel, because it's the single biggest issue around bookmarks. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
thoth foc Destructive Influence	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:26:00 - [67] Originally by: Avon I can live with insta-jumps if they come with a drawback, but without that compromise we still have a broken system. Very broken. I understand your opinion about game design.. But as I already said, i dont really care about that part of the design.. Someone is always going to complain about the system whatever way it's fixed.. i would prefer they implemented a fix that replicates current behaviour NOW, than wait for 6 moths while various ppl argue about game concepts THEN start a change.. which in the end just as many ppl will complain about anyway.. You are piggybacking ur arguement about ur dislike for a the design of travel on the arguement to remove the lag caused by BMs.. and then ignore that not everyone shares your passionate dislike for that aspect of the design.. >: )
Sky Marshal	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:27:00 - [68] * Warp at 0Km in Empire \|> Or official "Shared Empire's BMs" who anyone can access with an ISK monthly subscription. So this will be only one set of BM accessible by all players for Empire (drastic reduction of BMs for the database). * Classical Warp and BMs system for Low Secs. This would reduce the number of BM and copying acts, but not reduce the danger situation of Low Sec where copying and making would stand.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:27:00 - [69] I wonder who was the first to suggest bookmark lag and when was it suggested? --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:32:00 - [70] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. //Maya

Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:33:00 - [71] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. That works for 0.0. For Empire...add warp bubbles which only catch war enemies. There are other aspects to discuss, but we need v1.0 of this fix, and as soon as possible. THEN we can discuss minor side issues. //Maya
R0ze Hounds of Basgerin	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:33:00 - [72] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Players commonly have 10's of thousands of bookmarks. I do, and I despise them. They are simply required. So 10,000 or more BMs per player Do they actually? Okay besides some which have all the regions in their folders.. What really counts is the average. If the problems are made by some extra large BM holders make a limit to what one person can hold at a time. Quote: So 10,000 or more BMs per player, times 20k players online, times updating 10k bms per jump thru gate. Times hundreds of players copying thousands of bookmarks all the time. Here comes the tricky and interesting part.. Why wont you let the client do that? The client should get info about the jump range between 2 systems which (without making new gates and closing some) is pretty static. There are a lot of 'find shorter route' algorithms. Quote: the current db server is something like 10,000 a second Its not that high with all that Ramsan(s) between it should handle a bit more.. Cause I'm sticking a bit with pretty large social network site development and administration, so the stats/peaks doesnt seem to me so high. Anyways its kinda interesting from the technical side.
Toy God StarHunt	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:35:00 - [73] All I know is that the insta changes really hurt my wallet, since insta copying is the easiest way for me to make isk with my low sp. And I just found out about it like last week. :(
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:41:00 - [74] Originally by: thoth foc You are piggybacking ur arguement about ur dislike for a the design of travel on the arguement to remove the lag caused by BMs.. and then ignore that not everyone shares your passionate dislike for that aspect of the design.. Not at all. I have been arguing the same thing, including the lag aspect, since before Oveur made a post requesting ideas how to solve the problem. What was that, a year and a half ago? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
R0ze Hounds of Basgerin	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:44:00 - [75] And what where the solutions if any (besides deleting / denying something)?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:45:00 - [76] Originally by: R0ze And what where the solutions if any (besides deleting / denying something)? No dev feedback really since the debate was opened. They are scared. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Skogen Gump	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:46:00 - [77] Only problem is that it's really tough to remove all those bookmarks, unless you removed all of them; and then you might be removing bookmarks for peoples Caches, ships, cargo cans and safe spots. So you gotta consider that there'll be a shed load of Petitions and a not inconsiderable amount of time processing billions of insta's to ensure that they're in a certain radius of a number of different vectors. However, I'm happy that they've introduced this 5 at a time limit, it will definately stop certain alliances and corps from using it as a tactic against more honest people. But if they must remove insta's; they should let recon ships have a 0km warp option and other ships that have a "precise warp engine" module fitted. Also; Bubble camps should have a percentage change of working based on the Anchoring + some other skill, of the person who anchored it. imho
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:51:00 - [78] Yes, Skogen, of COURSE it stops newer players and alliances from competing with the "honest" existing alliances. The removal issue is quite simple IMO too - remove all those in the same grid as a gate or a station. //Maya
Skogen Gump	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:54:00 - [79] If you're copying hundreds, the only way to do it is copy 5-10 at a time; or else it takes 3 times as long - I can't see why it affects any of the newer players that much. Anyway, Maya, that wasn't my point :p I was referring to the nefarious practise of copying bookmarks to lag out systems.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 18:59:00 - [80] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/08/2006 19:00:07 Untrue. Quickest way has been to copy them all, and once they start going close people and places and wander off for a while. After the usual pause (which appears to be the same no matter HOW many BM's are copied, which is why this change is so bad), BM's then copy quite quickly. And yes, I was poking you for sloppy wording :P I know precisely who did it and I have no sympathy for them, but this change remains extremely poor. I'd be up for preventing copying in space, if that's what it takes.... //Maya

Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.30 19:00:00 - [81] Originally by: R0ze Originally by: Locke DieDrake Players commonly have 10's of thousands of bookmarks. I do, and I despise them. They are simply required. So 10,000 or more BMs per player Do they actually? Okay besides some which have all the regions in their folders.. What really counts is the average. If the problems are made by some extra large BM holders make a limit to what one person can hold at a time. I would say, from my experiance, that 10k bms is not uncommon for members of 0.0 alliances. EVERYONE in my corp has at least 6-10 regions worth of BMs. And if you don't, you go get them. Quote: So 10,000 or more BMs per player, times 20k players online, times updating 10k bms per jump thru gate. Times hundreds of players copying thousands of bookmarks all the time. Here comes the tricky and interesting part.. Why wont you let the client do that? The client should get info about the jump range between 2 systems which (without making new gates and closing some) is pretty static. There are a lot of 'find shorter route' algorithms. I don't know that it's really about client side/vs/ server side. One way or another, you have a huge amount of DB action directly associated with BMs. When bms were entirely client side, they could be hacked and that allowed for cheating, which is no good. Therefore BMs must be server side, and therefore must have a large load on IO operations. Even if they are cached in when you log in they still have to be updated regularly. Quote: Quote: the current db server is something like 10,000 a second Its not that high with all that Ramsan(s) between it should handle a bit more.. Cause I'm sticking a bit with pretty large social network site development and administration, so the stats/peaks doesnt seem to me so high. Anyways its kinda interesting from the technical side. Keep in mind they have 1 ramsan. (AFAIK) And it services the entire eve server. Stop and think about the number of IO operations generated by the jita market place alone. Then start factoring in the rest of the player base and you start to see why even the best hardware begins to have problems keeping up. It's not an issue of data size. It's an issue of data access. No matter how small a single IO operation is, it's still one of a limited number of operations per cycle. And EVERYTHING you do in eve has some affect on the DB. Causing 1 or 100 DB IO operations simply be opening the market, or whatever. You could offload work to the client. But thats problematic in it's own way. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Skogen Gump	Posted - 2006.08.30 19:03:00 - [82] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/08/2006 19:00:07 Untrue. Quickest way has been to copy them all, and once they start going close people and places and wander off for a while. You find that ? For me, if I grab 10 at a time and shift+drag them, they copy in seconds as opposed to minutes if I grab more, the time it takes is also exponential - so if you sit and manually do it; I assure you that it's always been faster for me
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 19:17:00 - [83] It's network-connecyion specific it seems. It used to work for me that way...since NTL changed our connection (faster generally now...), it's worked the other. It does vary between people, but is usually one or the other (and some people who plain can't copy em). //Maya
Skogen Gump	Posted - 2006.08.30 19:20:00 - [84] I've got 10Mbit NTL too ... weird, but then again, we're not in the same part of the country so that doesn't mean anything, I guess :)
R0ze Hounds of Basgerin	Posted - 2006.08.30 19:20:00 - [85] Originally by: Locke DieDrake I would say, from my experiance, that 10k bms is not uncommon for members of 0.0 alliances. EVERYONE in my corp has at least 6-10 regions worth of BMs. And if you don't, you go get them. Ok thats for some experienced and older characters.. How many there are just few days/weeks/months old. But okay its anyways not clear until any of the devs wont inform us about the real statistics. Quote: I don't know that it's really about client side/vs/ server side. The real power is in distributed computing (why the internet fears all those backdoor/trojan zombies :) ).. to handle evrything in a single core system is hard or even impossible. Quote: One way or another, you have a huge amount of DB action directly associated with BMs. When bms were entirely client side, they could be hacked and that allowed for cheating, which is no good. Okay there should be understanding how the client operates now. When you click warp to Bookmark are the coordinates selected from server or reside in client cache (after first select). Theoretically if you are experienced python programmer with a bit of network programming knowledge you can try to alter the information anyways between the server and client. Besides all you could "hack" are the X,Y,Z location .. which you can with your ship set as you want anyways (of course it takes time to get to some point in system). Quote: Keep in mind they have 1 ramsan. (AFAIK) And it services the entire eve server. Plug in the next :) Quote: Stop and think about the number of IO operations generated by the jita market place alone. The bottleneck pretty always is the permanent storage IO limits starting from cheap SATa untill high-end optical fibre disc storages.. Quote: You could offload work to the client. But thats problematic in it's own way. I agree with this.. still there are some nice technical samples and cases where it works like a charm - skype / torrents / multicasts and so on.. Imagine what a computing power has 20K conected workstations :)
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 20:02:00 - [86] Edited by: Darcuese on 30/08/2006 20:03:52 * Im for solution "Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km)" * Im for solution "Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again)" * Im for solution "Make warp to at 0km possible" BUT ALL this above togather only for MAIN ROUTES. ------------------------------------------------------------------ *For other systems (not on main route) there should be an option for creating BMs at gates, without option "warp to 0 km"........and + not possible to copying Bms AT ALL. WHy would they be need for copying anyway? Since main routes are covered, those that are lazzy to make them will "only" need to fly to main route. For SS, POS, Container someone can take you to location so you can bookmark place yourself. Because of making bms by yourself (instas) is a pain in the a.s.s. many ppl wont have instas (if they dont make them themself) so there would be lot more fun in local All this above + not possible of copying BMS out of your ppl/places anywhere.** Result - LOT less lag, warp to 0 km option (main routes), not copying BM for somebody or just for purpose of creating a lag, many ppl without instas (joy for campers) -------------------------------------------- Space available for advertising atm
SkeletonDenial Caldari ExCav Conglomerate The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.30 20:09:00 - [87] Well if your gonna copy them doit b4 thrusdays release clip from release notes [ Bookmark copying is now limited to 5 bookmarks at a time. Attempting to copy more than 5 bookmarks will result in only 5 being copied. ] Will that slow down bm selling? should raise the price up a good bit.
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2006.08.30 20:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Avon With a module based solution you can still have all the benefits of warp to 0km IF YOU FIT YOUR SHIP TO DO SO. That is compromise. I can live with insta-jumps if they come with a drawback, but without that compromise we still have a broken system. Very broken. People complain about having to 'nerf' their setup if they need mods to insta, but should we really listen to them? Do they want a better Eve, or are they looking out for their own selfish desires? It isn't like Warp to 0km wouldn't be good for me, of course it would. However, that still doesn't mean I want it. Easy mode for all sounds like a good plan, until you realise that means making things easier for the already more powerful groups. If they become more efficient, it makes things harder for those who think they will benefit. Warp to 0km without suitable compromise is a mistake, not because I fear it, but because I know what I could do with it. Think about it. Originally by: Avon With a module based solution you can still have all the benefits of warp to 0km IF YOU FIT YOUR SHIP TO DO SO. That is compromise. I can live with insta-jumps if they come with a drawback, but without that compromise we still have a broken system. Very broken. People complain about having to 'nerf' their setup if they need mods to insta, but should we really listen to them? Do they want a better Eve, or are they looking out for their own selfish desires? It isn't like Warp to 0km wouldn't be good for me, of course it would. However, that still doesn't mean I want it. Easy mode for all sounds like a good plan, until you realise that means making things easier for the already more powerful groups. If they become more efficient, it makes things harder for those who think they will benefit. Warp to 0km without suitable compromise is a mistake, not because I fear it, but because I know what I could do with it. Think about it. Avon wins, hands down. best post I read in this month although I would remove instas Greetings Grim
Thundercat Doom	Posted - 2006.08.30 20:31:00 - [89] Dunno if this has been stated, and I am too lazy to read through all the posts, but here is my thought. Dunno if would be possible though... or if it would be, how much time and trouble it would be. My thought is perhaps make a way to store them on one's own computer, and where they can be copied outside of the game so as not to put any extra stress on the system? Probably blowing hot air here, but was just a thought I had. Desperately wanting to remove the exclamation point!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 20:36:00 - [90] Grim, That's funny, a limited and identical set of people are agreeing there. Skogen Gump, yea, I'm on NTL and the change happened in the 2MBit -> 4 MBit upgrade. So... //Maya

BurnHard	Posted - 2006.08.30 20:36:00 - [91] Originally by: Avon Originally by: thoth foc You are piggybacking ur arguement about ur dislike for a the design of travel on the arguement to remove the lag caused by BMs.. and then ignore that not everyone shares your passionate dislike for that aspect of the design.. Not at all. I have been arguing the same thing, including the lag aspect, since before Oveur made a post requesting ideas how to solve the problem. What was that, a year and a half ago? Although you have been arguing the same thing, the poster here is correct. You are piggy-backing your game design change on the back of this issue. If BM's are such a problem it's a simple matter to "fix" that problem with a 2k jump-in and then if you want to introduce other balance changes to take into account the way people actually play the game now you are free to do so. The simple fix doesn't effectively change anything, apart from a vast reduction in the number/requirement for insta-bookmarks and a big disadvantage to gate campers who hit the unfortunate player who didn't happen to have that mark in his set. Well I'm sure 90% of players wouldn't give a monkeys about that in any case.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 21:46:00 - [92] Originally by: BurnHard Originally by: Avon Originally by: thoth foc You are piggybacking ur arguement about ur dislike for a the design of travel on the arguement to remove the lag caused by BMs.. and then ignore that not everyone shares your passionate dislike for that aspect of the design.. Not at all. I have been arguing the same thing, including the lag aspect, since before Oveur made a post requesting ideas how to solve the problem. What was that, a year and a half ago? Although you have been arguing the same thing, the poster here is correct. You are piggy-backing your game design change on the back of this issue. If BM's are such a problem it's a simple matter to "fix" that problem with a 2k jump-in and then if you want to introduce other balance changes to take into account the way people actually play the game now you are free to do so. The simple fix doesn't effectively change anything, apart from a vast reduction in the number/requirement for insta-bookmarks and a big disadvantage to gate campers who hit the unfortunate player who didn't happen to have that mark in his set. Well I'm sure 90% of players wouldn't give a monkeys about that in any case. No, because as I have stated before, you don't get two bites of this cake. Some people currently can warp to 0 (with instas), and some can't. Look at the uproar at the thought of removal. Now, imagine if EVERYONE had warp to 0, not only for some gates, but all gates, and then you proposed to remove that. The complaints you hear now are but a pale reflection of what would happen then. If a new system is to be put in place, it needs to happen all in one go. The people who argue for warp to 0km now, and fix it later, do so because they know that no further change would be possible. It is a ruse to make them look pragmatic. Server load was an issue when this was originally officially seen as a problem, and my proposals served to address that issue, along with the other issues that surround the insta debate. People who want warp to 0km are asking for the moon on a stick. All I am saying is "bring your own stick and the moon is yours". The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:33:00 - [93] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/08/2006 22:35:44 Avon, Of course you can get 2 bites if necessary. Your doom for keeping instas has not materialised. NONE of the effects you have ever claimed for it have materialised. 0km now IS the soloution, combined with the new bubble. I never claimed otherwise, you're creating rationalisatiosn which don't exist. "this was originally officially seen as a problem" .. it was allready too late for your soloution. "People who want warp to 0km are asking for the moon on a stick. All I am saying is "bring your own stick and the moon is yours"." No, you're saying stuff the stick where the sun don't shine, grin, and make the best of it. Well, some of us would prefer not to be poked. To have FUN. //Maya
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:33:00 - [94] THere are two posts in the features & ideas forum that suggest the same idea. Link to second post is in the first post. It's not the first time I've suggested it, and I can only assume the resistance to it is ideological on the part of the devs. They WANT this to be a PVP game so they WANT people to spend 15km travelling to a gate...it's the best place for combat to occur. Trouble is, the wag who first though of making a bookmark about 9km on the other side of the gate (Oh how I wish I could beat the cra...er...I mean, thank him) busted that system about three years ago. CCP. Wake up and smell the coffee. Your servers are groaning under the weight of a billion bookmarks, and smouldering slowly under the load of copying them all. THEY MUST GO, but the only way to do that without a MASSIVE outcry is the method herein suggested; Scrap all bookmarks within 150km of a gate Add manual warp to 0km option Leave autopilot at 15km. Pirates will learn that it is much more effective to camp the INCOMING gate rather than the OUTGOING one (most do anyway). Those who need sniping point bookmarks at gates will remake them...but at least that won't be thousands and thousands of the damn things. And here's a suggestion (not mine, I've stolen it) since the suggested method COULD co-exist with the current bookmarks, why not TRY it for a week...give us the warp to 0km option and see what happens. If the world doesn't end, if the griefers and PVPers don't pack their bags and unsubscribe in droves, THEN you can consider deleting all the bookmarks from aroudn the gate...and who knows...if you leave it in as a feature, you may even be able to convince people to delete them voluntarily themselves. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:40:00 - [95] Edited by: Grey Area on 30/08/2006 22:41:34 Originally by: Toy God All I know is that the insta changes really hurt my wallet, since insta copying is the easiest way for me to make isk with my low sp. And I just found out about it like last week. :( Sorry to appear heartless, but GOOD. Insta copying takes no effort, incurs no risk and is the root cause of all the problems. I buy Instas from you, I copy them and sell them on at the same price, and I have Instas for free. Where is that on the "risk vs reward" curve? Module based solution; (I run the risk of both agreeing with Maya AND sounding like her here, but hey, she had to be right eventually) I see two problems with a module based solution 1. One module is a much bigger deal to a frigate than it is to a BS. I know BS pilots will argue over that, but if (for example) it were a hi-slot module, you'd give over 1/8th of most BS's firepower...for some frigates it would be one half. Haulers would strangely be less affected as they always wonder what to do with that spare hi slot anyway. 2. It gives even more advantage to defenders of a system. They don't have to travel, so don't need the module. Their attackers do. The defenders already have the advantage of their supply chain and POS being right in their back yard...they don't need a further boost. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Jallen Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:47:00 - [96] Sorry if this was suggested earlier. But many of the posts were saying the same thing, and it seems about even on the side that says warp to 0 is good and the side that says warp to 0 is bad. How's this. Warp to 0 = Warp Core Stabs don't work?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:51:00 - [97] Originally by: Jallen How's this. Warp to 0 = Warp Core Stabs don't work? Warning! Thread Hijack attempt detected! --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:52:00 - [98] Your attitude to a nerf which has nothing whatsoever to do with the real insta problem and is nothing more than a nerf to newbies is disgusting Gray, and I'll certainly remember your attitude towards them. Further, "defenders?" Say what it will be - Pirate Snipers. //Maya
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:58:00 - [99] Edited by: Grey Area on 30/08/2006 23:01:06 Typical Maya. I agree with her and she still takes a shot. I have said that I 100% think the 5 copy limit is a lousy idea. However I'm not going to weep crocodile tears for people who sit in a station all day copying bookmarks and selling them on. Yes, some of them use macros to do it too. If macro miners are so hated, why are you stepping up to defend macro bookmark copiers? Edit: I'm not having a go at TOY GOD for being new. I'm having a go at a system which allows him to make money for no effort. It is, in my opinion, NO different to macro mining. It's an abuse of the game (I hesitate to use the word "exploit" as it's too emotive) and I think CCP have finally seen that...hence the limit. And the suggestion as made by the OP and which I fully support levels the playing field for ALL players. The 5 copy limit is a BAD idea...but if it opens THIS level of discussion on a REAL bookmark fix, then MAYBE some good will come of it. Try and see past our old differences long enough to get the job DONE, eh Maya? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:08:00 - [100] Originally by: Maya Rkell Of course you can get 2 bites if necessary. Your doom for keeping instas has not materialised. NONE of the effects you have ever claimed for it have materialised. lol What claims would they be, exactly? Oh, hang on, you are just making stuff up again, aren't you? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Jallen Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:11:00 - [101] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Jallen How's this. Warp to 0 = Warp Core Stabs don't work? Warning! Thread Hijack attempt detected! Not my intention. However, I do believe that if they allow a warp to 0 then some sort of side effect comes into play. WCS just seems to be a logical choice. Other choices would be an increase in warp time (which was suggested), or a jump timer like you get from aggressing someone at a gate (can't jump through for 30s or whatever).
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:18:00 - [102] Originally by: Jallen Not my intention. However, I do believe that if they allow a warp to 0 then some sort of side effect comes into play. WCS just seems to be a logical choice. Not really...it's kind of pointless...if you warp to 0km, you're going to jump through the gate, so you wouldn't feel the benefit of a WCS anyway...unless you're suggesting it shouldn't work on the other side, in which case you're into the territory of "how LONG does it not work for"? Originally by: Jallen Other choices would be an increase in warp time (which was suggested), or a jump timer like you get from aggressing someone at a gate (can't jump through for 30s or whatever). I think this gets outside of what we are considering...currently, you can use an Insta that you can buy from the market, and you don't pay ANY of these penalties. As I've said, you can then copy and sell on the instas so that their net cost to you is ZERO. If insta's didn't need any increase in warp time, jump delay or stealth nerf to WCS, then neither does the replacement system as outlined. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:26:00 - [103] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Maya Rkell Of course you can get 2 bites if necessary. Your doom for keeping instas has not materialised. NONE of the effects you have ever claimed for it have materialised. lol What claims would they be, exactly? Oh, hang on, you are just making stuff up again, aren't you? yes, mock because you have no point, no momentum and no ability to see beyond your very narrow take on gameplay. Grey Area, it's not a shot - it's the same as on the other thread. Do y'really think I could let it pass. For someone who's spent a lot of time advising corps how to build up, this is a pure nerf and allI can do is advice them to freeze recruitment... without someone allready having the right instas, they can't work alongside the corp outside highsec. "why are you stepping up to defend macro bookmark copiers" I'm not. I'm calling for a real soloution. You're hailing a nerf to newer players. Great, BM copiers are out of order (except not, just slowed). Newer players who need instas? They're out too. Totally. They'd be entirely justifyied in quitting on the spot, and at least one I know allready has. (He was expecting delivery of the BM's he needed a soon, perfectly legit BM corp just defaulted due to the changes and is out of business and his corp app is thus rejected). But no, your attitude to new players is noted. And yes, it is going to be a factor in future. //Maya
Naxxiz GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:28:00 - [104] Add constelation sovereignty, if you have a + standing to the alliance/corp that has sovereignty, you get 0km warp distance to gates. For empire, if you have certain standing to the state that controls the region, you get 0km warp distances. Randomize warp to distance from 5 to 15km in all other cases thus making insta bookmarks worthless. Now there's great strategic value with sovereignty which add a new dimension to the game. Also incentive and negatives to running missions for a certain faction. For pirates, create an implant that allows them 0 warp distance. Implants has -negative modifier to all personal and corp standings, thus they show up red on everyone's(who has neutral standing towards the pirate) overview and flags the wearer as a criminal in empire allowing anyone to blow them up. Implant also has negative -2 warp stab bonus because pirates with stabs makes baby pandas cry. Cost of implant should be cheap around $5 million and sold at every npc in 0.00.
Kyguard LFC 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:32:00 - [105] Edited by: Kyguard on 30/08/2006 23:32:35 Originally by: DigitalCommunist While it solves the lag issue, it does nothing to solve the gameplay issue. Giving everyone 0km warp distance is just a replacement for what we have. What we have is utter crap, and should not exist. Period. Thus, its not a very good solution as it doesn't address several bad things about instajumps: - they make travel too safe - they make travel too fast - they cost nothing to use - they never fail Sorry TWD - If CCP makes travel any more dangerous, it will destroy solo pvp and encourage even more blobbing, no thanks. - Travel should be fast, I'm sure you as much as me don't like to travel across the vast eve galaxy without BMs. - I agree with this. To make BMs universal and there as soon as you start doesn't seem to be the most logical approach. - Neither do most insta-BMs (well most of the time eh) Only problem I see with this approach TWD is that instas now become universal and there will be no one not instaing to gates unless they're afk. But to scrap insta BMs altogether is probably the most hindsighted of ideas. === God is on the side with the best artillery.
Kobi Ashi Encompus Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:38:00 - [106] The problem is and has been this. 0km warp is something all players WANT. And as for pirates complaining they cant snag people at the gates? There's still the other side of the gate. And dont even start on WCS's.. Players want 0km so bad they pay for sets of instas. People make instas and copy them for isk. There is no risk vs reward, only sanity vs reward. Copying bookmarks currently is mind numbing, painful, and the demand is enough to make a person cry. (the amount of orders we recieved a day is scary) Implimenting a 5bm limit only does one thing. Make the copying process more predictable time wise and number wise, and thus makeing it much more macro'able. I have not met a bookmark seller yet that uses a macro to copy them. I know we dont. But all this patch is doing is saying "hey. no human is going to sit there and click and drag and keypress 408 times to copy one region. So make a macro to do it" Fix it, remove it, or leave it alone. But this is the most retarded "solution" i've ever seen. * Why was Dragon code suppose to make everything run more effiently, yet they didn't even attempt a code re-write of how bookmarks work to lessen the server load? If they are THIS big of a load on the server, you think that would have been high priority.. years ago. *
Vincae Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:39:00 - [107] Edited by: Vincae on 30/08/2006 23:44:20 Imho, bookmarks are one of the most serious design issues with EVE. Because they're so useful, they become required. Since they're not stored locally (too easily hacked, could just distribute bookmark files over the internet to others), they take up database space. In order to fix the data problem : Delete any bookmark within 20km of a gate. Limit future bookmarks to 10-20 per character (or a target number which does not place stress on the database). Grant a 30 day grace period before bookmarks in excess of the desired total number of bookmarks are deleted. After the 30 days, any bookmarks beyond the target number on a character are deleted. These steps cannot be taken without also addressing the question of why bookmarks are so widely used, and whether the reasons people use bookmarks should be addressed. I'd offer that travel is a boring mechanic and an unsafe one, thus leading to the wide use of bookmarks. Since piracy is a valid playstyle in EVE, and it's desired that it remains so, allowing players to warp to gates directly is out. So here would be possible suggestions to preserve piracy while still removing the frustration of travel between systems: Introduce a new skill: Warp Drive Navigation. Each level of the skill subtracts 2km from the minimum warp-to distance. At level 5, this would lower the minimum warp distance from 15km to 5km. During warp, and for 15 seconds after a warp is completed, increase ship signature radius by 200%. This would allow people at gate camps enough time to lock their target & scramble them with the appropriate skills, thus preserving piracy as a valid career path without needing to introduce some other method of stopping players. Allow autopilot to use your minimum-range warp-to distance based on the Warp Drive Navigation skill. There are other possiblities too. Introducing a benefits for system exploration with the exploration system being designed for Kali would be a reasonable method of adding further value to the system. Perhaps when a warpgate is visited, the minimum warp distance to that gate is lowered to 5km (from the base 15km). Just my opinions, of course.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:44:00 - [108] Originally by: Maya Rkell Further, you've never mentioned macro bookmark copiers before, and I challenge you to provide evidence for their existance. OK, I can't provide evidence, but I can make reasoned argument. Macro miners use macros because they are good at dragging stuff from one window to another, automating a boring repetitive task. It doesn't really matter whether "stuff" is ore or bookmarks. If you think someone hasn't thought of doing it, you're a hell of a lot more naive than I thought. Originally by: Maya Rkell But no, your attitude to new players is noted. And yes, it is going to be a factor in future. This supposed "attitude to new players" is a figment of your imagination, coloured by our previous disagreements. I have stated plainly that I think the 5 copy limit is a lousy idea. I don't know how to make it any clearer. You're in danger of becoming a parody of yourself. Maybe I should change my sig to include your name instead of Cleese? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
DriveCrash Malium Imperium	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:53:00 - [109] Originally by: Vincae Edited by: Vincae on 30/08/2006 23:44:20 Imho, bookmarks are one of the most serious design issues with EVE. Because they're so useful, they become required. Since they're not stored locally (too easily hacked, could just distribute bookmark files over the internet to others), they take up database space. Lets think why they have become SO useful and so required? Has that changed? Why would removing all the bookmarks change this? It would only serve to isolate all alliances in 0.0 and cut off all travel through unsafe space. Gate gankers already have a high advantage over people trying to travel. Make travel even more unsafe and costly, and all you have is less players. Quote: Since piracy is a valid playstyle in EVE, and it's desired that it remains so, allowing players to warp to gates directly is out. Right Quote: So here would be possible suggestions to preserve piracy while still removing the frustration of travel between systems: [list=i] Introduce a new skill: Warp Drive Navigation. Each level of the skill subtracts 2km from the minimum warp-to distance. At level 5, this would lower the minimum warp distance from 15km to 5km. What? you just pretty much contradicted yourself, not to meantion who IS NOT going to train that skill to level 5? thus makeing it a instant time sink, not a viable skill. lame. I give up, i'm not replying to anymore of this.. The code / hardware should have been addressed along time ago. CCP better come up with a solution fast. thats all i have to say. Then again, it's been 3 years.. maybe it's time to look for that new groundbreaking MMO. shrug -DCO ./~Malium Imperium~\.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:54:00 - [110] "but I can make reasoned argument" No, you can't. People you NEVER mentioned or complained about before, that you made up for this argument. Previous reference and I'd believe you. None such. And no, it is your clearly stated attitude. Shrug, it's a datum now. //Maya

jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:56:00 - [111] Avon is right, EVE is broken with instas. I vote "No warp to 0" -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Jallen Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:56:00 - [112] Originally by: Grey Area Not really...it's kind of pointless...if you warp to 0km, you're going to jump through the gate, so you wouldn't feel the benefit of a WCS anyway...unless you're suggesting it shouldn't work on the other side, in which case you're into the territory of "how LONG does it not work for"? That's a very good point, and I guess I'll try to elaborate abit. Currently, the majority of gate camps happen on the "entry" gate, rather than the "exit" gate to a system. This is primarily due to the fact that a large number of the low sec and 0.0 inhabitants have insta bm's. So, what this would mean is that if you are utilizing a "Warp to 0" function so that you can jump right when you reach the "exit" gate, your WCS wouldn't work during the "warm up" process of activating warp. Giving the Pirates/System Defenders a chance to lock you down and send you back to your chosen cloning facility. Granted this won't affect interceptors and the like because they warp so bloody fast to begin with, but in that instance there'd be no change in game play anyway. Now if they just decide to remove bm's from around gates and stations in entirety, and make it so that bm's can't be made within 200km of an object (thereby making insta's impossible) it also inhibits combat bm's for around a gate/station as well. Frankly we can't be having that. (btw, only reason I brought this up is because it was mentioned a couple of times) If they were to do something like this, you can bet there'd be alot of WBMing going on these forums and they'd probably crash. This option would move the camps from the "entry" gate to the "exit" gate. Honestly I really don't see a difference here. Fast ships are gonna get through, slow ships will be caught. Now, if CCP were going to do anything that reduces the warp to option closer to the gate, but yet not within jump range, people will still make/use bookmarks and it doesn't solve anything. Sorry I kinda went off what I was trying to put across about the WCS, but I wanted to cover the bases. Now, if they decide to make it so that WCS don't work on the otherside of the gate, that would be highly debatable. To long and people would WBM. To short, and people would just wait till that timer was killed by staying cloaked on the other side of the gate. Unless they were to make it conditional where the timer doesn't start until your ship starts moving in which case 5-10s should be plenty of time for a good tackler in a lag free environment. Personally, I don't like this solution as it just means more calculations for the server to do, and the less calculations the server has to do the better. Quote: I think this gets outside of what we are considering...currently, you can use an Insta that you can buy from the market, and you don't pay ANY of these penalties. As I've said, you can then copy and sell on the instas so that their net cost to you is ZERO. If insta's didn't need any increase in warp time, jump delay or stealth nerf to WCS, then neither does the replacement system as outlined. This is true, but remember the OP stated that all bm's within 150km of a gate/station are deleted, and that you can't make bm's within 150km of a gate or station (I'm not in favor of the second part as indicated in my response above). And I'm not saying to stealth nerf WCS, I'm against stealth nerfs of any kind. You make a change to something, you tell the players your making that change. All they'd have to do in this instance is put a line in the patch notes that says something along the lines of: "Research into warp drives has given pilots the option to close in on Stargates and Stations so that they may dock, or jump, instantaneously apon (upon? I always get that mixed up) arrival, however as a result the effectiveness of warp core stabilizers has been nullified when using that option."
Kobi Ashi Encompus Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:57:00 - [113] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Maya Rkell Further, you've never mentioned macro bookmark copiers before, and I challenge you to provide evidence for their existance. OK, I can't provide evidence, but I can make reasoned argument. Macro miners use macros because they are good at dragging stuff from one window to another, automating a boring repetitive task. It doesn't really matter whether "stuff" is ore or bookmarks. If you think someone hasn't thought of doing it, you're a hell of a lot more naive than I thought. Mining is timeable. and might I add very predictable. how often do you have a database lockout and a batch of ore doesn't show up in your hold? how often does a batch of bookmarks not copy due to the database giving you the finger? A macro bookmark copyer in the OLD system would simply make crap sets. It would be innacurate and unable to cope with all then unknowns and random things that happen while copying bookmarks. In the new system, it becomes MUCH more like mining in it's predictablity. Just a thought.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 00:01:00 - [114] Kobi Ashi, "how often does a batch of bookmarks not copy due to the database giving you the finger" All the time. Dunno on mining. //Maya
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.08.31 00:21:00 - [115] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Maya Rkell But no, your attitude to new players is noted. And yes, it is going to be a factor in future. This supposed "attitude to new players" is a figment of your imagination, coloured by our previous disagreements. I have stated plainly that I think the 5 copy limit is a lousy idea. I don't know how to make it any clearer. You're in danger of becoming a parody of yourself. Maybe I should change my sig to include your name instead of Cleese? Michael Palin: Another noted New Player Hater. For instance, see the Spanish Inquisition skit. Your true colors are finally showing through, you ruthless, fanatical, red-uniformed cad! * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Vincae Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.31 00:35:00 - [116] Quote: What? you just pretty much contradicted yourself, not to meantion who IS NOT going to train that skill to level 5? thus makeing it a instant time sink, not a viable skill. lame. I'm not sure how I contradicted myself. Within 5km of a gate with a giant sig radius allows any astute pirate a reasonable chance to intercept the player, thus preserving piracy. As to who is not going to train the skill... well, who is NOT going to train Navigation to 5? Who is NOT going to train Engineering to 5? Who is NOT going to train Electronics to 5? etc, etc. It's as viable a skill as any other in the game. Come on. Seriously, to even make an alliance or corp requires a skill. How is navigating closer to your intended destination any more of a timesink or less of a viable skill? -V
Kobi Ashi Encompus Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.31 01:25:00 - [117] Originally by: Maya Rkell Kobi Ashi, "how often does a batch of bookmarks not copy due to the database giving you the finger" All the time. Dunno on mining. I've never had it happen mining. And i've done my share. Heck i've mined for such long periods of time when i fell asleep at the keys, I'm pretty sure i kept mining in my sleep. Thats how macroable it is. Bookmarks at current. yeah, no. Not to meantion the funky server glitch that unselects the bm in PNP and drops it to the bottom of the list, causeing you to loose your place. Wonder how a macro would deal with that. Whatever. Why not make it like research or factory? put region in, set number of copies, let it run. takes a week . yay! the server can process the information at it's convenience. shrug
Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 01:45:00 - [118] Originally by: jamesw Avon is right, EVE is broken with instas. I vote "No warp to 0" Well now it'll be broken with less lag. Isn't that a step in the right direction?
Lonewolfnight Gallente Celestial Janissaries	Posted - 2006.08.31 01:45:00 - [119] I'd like to suggest something different to this matter. Currently, jump gates assist you in warping at FTL speeds into a new system. Now with that concept in mind, what about requiring ships to become aligned to the jump gate and being jumped to that new system only when the ship has become aligned? Thoughts?
Eloc Peptabysmal Caldari Madison Industrial Co.	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:01:00 - [120] Noobish question, and forgive me if it's been asked already. But what's keeping the game from storing BMs client side and only 'dialing' them when necessary? Other than that, my only input to first remove instas, retard copying of BMs, then make BMs disappear after an hour and a half if keeping them is too much a strain.

Kimeah	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:07:00 - [121] Originally by: Eloc Peptabysmal Noobish question, and forgive me if it's been asked already. But what's keeping the game from storing BMs client side and only 'dialing' them when necessary? Other than that, my only input to first remove instas, retard copying of BMs, then make BMs disappear after an hour and a half if keeping them is too much a strain. Because eventually someone will create a program to ***** the instas so they can make ss whereever they want in a system.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:09:00 - [122] Heh. Using a deacent algorythm, you can easily make ones which would take a supercomputer a year to break. Then change the server key every 6 months at patches... //Maya
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:24:00 - [123] Originally by: Maya Rkell Heh. Using a deacent algorythm, you can easily make ones which would take a supercomputer a year to break. Then change the server key every 6 months at patches... I'm sure that would do wonders for cpu usage. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:32:00 - [124] james, compared to serving them up as they do now? Eh, it can be relatively light. There's a P233 which serves up 500 per second using an large RAMdrive in a friend of mine's workplace. And its NOT at 100% CPU at all. //Maya
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:35:00 - [125] fair enough. it still doesnt change the fact that the gameplay mechanics built around instas need to go. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:38:00 - [126] What, most of the game? It needs an equivalent replacement. And there are several quite simple ones which ar being put foward by a lot of people (and the same few people calling, predictably, for nerfing it all). A sensible move, not a rushed, slash-the-gameplay nerf which kills off newer players chances for an indefinate period. //Maya
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:49:00 - [127] It needs to go, so that such things that should be a part of the game are resurrected. Things such as Regional markets, where people actually have to think about whether they actually need to go somewhere. Traders who take the time to haul goods in between markets can actually make a profit. Instead, we have the mindnumbing lagfest called Jita which is 20 mins travel from anywhere in empire, and EVERYONE goes there. Travelling through low security, and zero space. It requires pretty much zero skill at present. If you want to travel in a hauler or BS, it should be slow. They are slow ships! Fitting 7 cargo expanders to an indy reduces travelling speed by ZERO at the moment... why would you fit anything else? Seriously, tell me what about instas is good for the game. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Porven	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:02:00 - [128] The problem with instas are that everyone has bookmarks to basically the same locations (gates and stations). If CCP wants to keep instas a part of the game, then CCP should be the ones to set the bookmarks to these gates. Instead of 50,000 bookmarks "kind-of-close-to-each-other" per gate stored as inventory items in multiple accounts, there would be 1 system-bookmark per gate shared among everyone who bought it... the official CCP sold bookmark. This would be the 0km location of the gate that server already knows about just like it already knows the location of a planet or asteroid belt, etc. Since it is only a single location rather than a collection of thousands of nearly identical locations, it could be cached in server memory rather than being the result of a SQL query. Safespots and other BMs could work like normal since these aren't the bookmarks that are causing the problems. Sets of these gate and station BMs could be bought from NPCs and serve as a much needed money sink for the game as well. As for bookmark copying... bookmark copying could be disallowed just like frigate copying or wcs copying is disallowed (not counting BP's of course). This might mean initally clearing all bookmarks from the game to get everyone to use the NPC bookmarks but at least it would preserve the current gameplay for better or worse while potentially geting rid of a lot of the lag.
Wrayeth Omerta Syndicate Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:03:00 - [129] Originally by: jamesw If you want to travel in a hauler or BS, it should be slow. They are slow ships! Fitting 7 cargo expanders to an indy reduces travelling speed by ZERO at the moment... why would you fit anything else? Seriously, tell me what about instas is good for the game. I must disagree here. It would take between an hour and twenty minutes and an hour and forty minutes to travel just 20 jumps in a raven without instas. Say I only have two hours to play on a given day, but the hostiles I'm looking to kill are 20 jumps into 0.0 - what am I supposed to do? For those of us who don't enjoy wolfpacks, it would pretty much ruin the game. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:09:00 - [130] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/08/2006 03:11:47 James W, Nothing will be "resurrected". Just killed. People allways believe in the myth of the time that was...no different from the Greenpeace who want to put us back to an age when you're dead well before 50. "Things such as Regional markets" Oh, you mean missing basic T1 modules from the market, when Eve had too few players to provide them, right. Because there ARE pricing differences today - which you conveniently utterly ignore. That you further ignore the fact that the limit on markets is not speed of travel, but sell order limits. "Traders who take the time to haul goods in between markets can actually make a profit" Yes, and they do. That you can't is hardly indicitive of a wider failure in the system. The hub-based market occured purely because CCP klled off most of ther big manufacturers and traders when they put in the sell order limits without the Tychoon skill, and drasically nerfed their ability to do what they found fun in Eve...a small amount of people, but ones who were important until they were nerfed. And the market STILL suffers today, yes. Remove the market order limits, and instas or NOT, you'll see markets bloom. Kill instas, and people will move closer to the hubs rather than go without basic T1 items they require. "Travelling through low security, and zero space. It requires pretty much zero skill at present" Absolute rubbish. Moreover, misleading. There is zero skill involved, instas or no instas in watching a ship move. Not only do instas not grossly distort the ratios of movement speeds (except for freighters), biggers ships longer alignment times make them vulnrable the other side of the gate, as you well know. Instas are a core game system which enable much of the current gameplay. They ALLOW people outside the few big alliances to enter 0.0, to sometimes get past the pirates camping the 0.4's. To be able to move mass items via freighters, the entire gameplay based arround bubbles and interdictors - an intricate and interesting piece of strategic and tactical gameplay. "Fitting 7 cargo expanders to an indy reduces travelling speed by ZERO at the moment... why would you fit anything else?" Untrue. Of COURSE they reduce traveling speed with instas. Each and every one which is an expander is not a nanofiber or an intertial stabliser. Welcome to the balance factor called "opportunity cost", which lies behind most of Eve's module balancing. You cannot compare to a null, you have to compare to the reasonable alternatives - and we see there is indeed a cost in travel speed, "even with instas" for cargo expanders. There's plenty which is good, and a functional equivalent is needed. For the good of the game, no later than next week. Litterally. Of course you're going to dismiss this - the 23 is revealed, y'know. The 23 people who want to rip the heart out of the game, the formerly secret viper in our midst (yes, that was RP Angst, deal). Porven, I used to think like that, wanting scanning and a limited number of 0km BM's stored - I was persuaded it wasn't radical enough and 0km warps (and the need for new interdiction methods) were the correct path. //Maya

jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:12:00 - [131] Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: jamesw If you want to travel in a hauler or BS, it should be slow. They are slow ships! Fitting 7 cargo expanders to an indy reduces travelling speed by ZERO at the moment... why would you fit anything else? Seriously, tell me what about instas is good for the game. I must disagree here. It would take between an hour and twenty minutes and an hour and forty minutes to travel just 20 jumps in a raven without instas. Say I only have two hours to play on a given day, but the hostiles I'm looking to kill are 20 jumps into 0.0 - what am I supposed to do? Well there are lots of options. - Decide if you really need to go that far to kill something. 20 jumps is a long way for a bs without instas. - Move base closer to the area you operate in. A nightly 40 jump round trip in a bs? thats exactly one of the problems caused by instas - Use a faster fitting. (Wow, a reason to fit an MWD!) - Use faster gang members to warp to, as a form of mobile instas. There are lots of ways to address a problem. Being inflexible and stubbornly sticking to a powerhouse setup that really should be as slow as hell is not a reason for instas to stay. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:16:00 - [132] "Decide", right. Decide what, if you're not going to go and to log off and play something else? Right. And people will. "Move base closer to the area you operate in." And you're going to pay for the outpost, POS, ffreighter fuel etc right? Because these things are not free. Telling people "oh move" is all well and good when you're not the one doing it. "Use a faster fitting. (Wow, a reason to fit an MWD!)" Uh-huh. Now run the maths and see how little you get for this. Then remember you're selectively nerfing certain ships. And... "Use faster gang members to warp to, as a form of mobile instas." That IS an insta, yes, and if the other instas go that absolutely MUST go as well. It's selective otherwise, and forces people to run instabots. Buffbots and their like are the BANE of many MMO's, and you want them in Eve? No, 15km minimum warp MEANS 15km minimum warp. Period. "There are lots of ways to address a problem." Correct. And your one of "rip it out, seed the soil with salt and then use napalm on it" is not a constructive one. You're the one who's stubbornly trying to go back to the time that never was. You're the one who's trying to dicate that alliances except the biggest few are not viable, that snipers should have free kills. That... //Maya
Wrayeth Omerta Syndicate Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:27:00 - [133] Originally by: jamesw Well there are lots of options. - Decide if you really need to go that far to kill something. 20 jumps is a long way for a bs without instas. Exactly why removing instas without a replacement would kill the fun. Quote: - Move base closer to the area you operate in. A nightly 40 jump round trip in a bs? thats exactly one of the problems caused by instas Half the time I don't know what area I'm going to be operating in until I undock. Quote: - Use a faster fitting. (Wow, a reason to fit an MWD!) That's a nice thought, but doesn't work for the raven. If you fit a MWD, you can't scramble; the raven is just too midslot-intensive in regards to its tank. If you fit a scrambler, you can't fit a MWD. The 'geddon has the same problem regarding a web and a MWD - it can either use a scrambler, web, and cap injector, or a MWD, scrambler, and cap injector and get wtfpwned by anything that gets in too close for its guns to track. Quote: - Use faster gang members to warp to, as a form of mobile instas. I've found you hardly gain any time at all by doing this - by the time the gang member has the leapfrog setup, you could've already been close to jump range by approaching the gate from 15km. I.E. travel times are still ridiculously long. Quote: There are lots of ways to address a problem. Being inflexible and stubbornly sticking to a powerhouse setup that really should be as slow as hell is not a reason for instas to stay. ANY raven tank setup is screwed when it comes to midslots. The minimum realistic PvP setup requires five slots: XL booster, boost amp, 2 invulnerability fields, and cap injector. This leaves one slot empty for a MWD or scrambler, and if you fit the MWD on a torp setup you can't even fit medium nos since you lack the fitting requirements, effectively wasting your last two highslots...and, again, you can't scramble anything. People keep talking about the four-slot armor tank of two EANMs and either two large reps or one large rep and a plate, but that's not really a four-slot setup at all - you still need a midslot for the cap injector, making it five-slot. The armor tankers just have more midslots leftover after they fit their tank, meaning they don't get totally screwed by nerfing instas with no replacement. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Pitt Gallente Loot	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:28:00 - [134] Edited by: Pitt on 31/08/2006 03:31:29 Originally by: Locke DieDrake Delete all bookmarks within 50km of a gate. Leave the 5 at a time restrictions to copying. Defualt warp to distance set at 5km Done. Best suggestion on the board at the moment. -Skills just add more "must have" skills to train. -I like the mod idea avon has, but let's face it the insta people would shake the earth with their anger. -Warp to 0km isn't a fix to the problem with insta's just cure's one of the problem about insta's. -Warp to 5k, jump/dock at 2.5km takes both sides and appeases and disgruntles them both. Warp to 5km doesn't negate ship fittings, 2.5kms is a long way in a bs or indy with no speed mods fitted. Warp to 5km isn't an insta jump per-se, but it's about as close as it gets. Warp to 5km makes keeps travel times close to what they are now with insta's and it's definatly not 15km's. Deleting all bm's within 50km (I would say 100-150 but..) is a step we're all going to have to take one day. Can't we comprimise with each other about what that first step is? *How many must die in the name of God before the Devil is satisfied*
Wrayeth Omerta Syndicate Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:30:00 - [135] Originally by: Maya Rkell "Decide", right. Decide what, if you're not going to go and to log off and play something else? Right. And people will. QFT. If I have a choice between being forced to fly a frig in PvP due to instas being nonexistant or logging off, I'd just log, TBH. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Sheha	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:37:00 - [136] Originally by: TWD - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. What??? You mean scrap Autopilot?
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:39:00 - [137] No. Essentially, making a new option avaliable of 0km warping, but ONLY for manual piloting. Autopilot remains exactly as it does today. //Maya
Gorath Vaan	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:50:00 - [138] I'll agree with anyone who says that removing instas will stagnate 0.0 unless something REALLY spectacularly good is deployed to replace them. This is not a 'Dev Dig' but most of the older players will not be hampered by the insta-copy-nerf... many have bookmarks for almost all of eve and swap them in and out of cans and folders depending on where they are. All they have to do is reload their folders to relocate. The people who the insta-copy-nerf will hurt most are those who wish to leave Empire and head for 0.0. A few months back there was a determined call from CCP to repopulate 0.0 because no-one was there. The current increased useage of low-sec is due mostly to the fact that instas were copied so that players could get there. Never mind combat... you could hold fleet battles in prearranged locations at prearranged times... you could 'deadspace' all pvp... what is lost with the insta-nerf is the everyday travelling to and from 0.0 where your autopilot will get your ship killed. My best shot at a solution is here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386887
DriveCrash Malium Imperium	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:55:00 - [139] ok, first off.. what numbskull would fly a hauler around in 0.0 with all cargo expanders?? I've never done this. 2 stabs and 3 nanofibers. Because even WITH insta's, i'm still a sitting duck as i align to jump to the next gate. I've lost more ships that way than any other. Fleet battle, 1v1 combat, belt fights, pos attacks.. anything. I get ganked USEING insta's all the time. Unless I'm really prepared to get through a blockaid. Second, Kobi made a point about makeing bookmarks copy in a factory or something simular. this is a good idea IMO. I sorta like the idea of "corp bookmarks" everyone uses, but again, it's not my call. As far as 5 copy limit not effecting copying bm's? Where do you people get off? Go try to copy 1 region, say a smaller one like essence. Now you have to copy that 22 times for your corp mates because your getting ready to go to war with a corp there. You MIGHT finish 2 regions in one day before your wrist cramped to the point you couldn't play. So what do people do instead? Same thing I do, find a bookmark seller with a good reputation and order 22 sets of said region. The person I bought bookmarks from has a 10 day waiting period, and uses 20 accounts currently to copy bookmarks, and still cannot keep up with demand. No they are not in jita causeing massive lag. They are in a remote 0.5 sec system just off 0.0 space. No one is every there but them and people picking up thier orders. How is this causeing problems? I'll tell you what WILL cause problems.. copying 5 bm at a time, means no more 20 accounts.. means 1 account. if that. and some serious real life physical pain copying the bookmarks. Thus price of regional bm's will not only go up due to supply vs demand, but also because of physical and mental pain caused by copying this way. And to anyone who says bookmark sellers make too much money without risk.. try copying a few regions yourself. several times. I personally have 4 accounts that I play (each does something different) and I gladly pay the isk to save myself from haveing to copy a region 3 times every time I move. This is not a matter of hours, but days. It litterally took me 2 days to copy 1 region for my accounts. At that point I decided the money was well spent. But now I will not be able to AFFORD regional bms on escrow.. and i'm not even a noob. So instead I will attempt to copy the bm's myself, become horribly frustrated, suffer (as i have carpal tunnel syndrom) and in short, quit playing. Why not stay in the same area? because I'm a merc. My enemys dont stay put, and neither can I. This is all just a load of rubbish. -DCO ./~Malium Imperium~\.
Alekto Erinys Platinum Investments	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:32:00 - [140] ugh, just make 'em client-side for now ... this entire issue is a pain in the rear, and if they're causing lag, it needs to be mitigated quickly. if it's determined that a gameplay mechanic change is warranted after the lag problem is solved, a decision can be made on that issue alone.

Clementina God's of Eve	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:39:00 - [141] I counted all my bookmarks, I have exactly 1663 bms. Not "tens of thousands". Everyone add the number of bms that you posses. Let's see how many there actually are.
Horb Kings of Kill	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:59:00 - [142] Edited by: Horb on 31/08/2006 04:59:08 Originally by: DigitalCommunist While it solves the lag issue, it does nothing to solve the gameplay issue. Giving everyone 0km warp distance is just a replacement for what we have. What we have is utter crap, and should not exist. Period. Thus, its not a very good solution as it doesn't address several bad things about instajumps: - they make travel too safe - they make travel too fast - they cost nothing to use - they never fail Sorry TWD Digi, We don't know each other but we've both been playing a long time and I respect everything you've done for this game. But I completely disagree with making travel too fast. Travel is the main reason I don't play as much as I like. For example if I want to take ship A and meet up with gang B who left an hour ago and are now in deep 0.0 space in system named C...what does that mean? I know that me going to meet up with them is completey pointless because I can only play 2 hours tonight and it's gonna take me that long just to get fitted and meet up with them. So what does A+B+C = ? The hell if I know because I'm drunk and have no clue where I'm going with this. But shortening travel is not a bad thing. Otherwise you make some good points.
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:03:00 - [143] I'm with TWD. While in a perfect world, they could pull out all instas and just call it good, the reality is, after 3 years... it's to late for that solution. Eve;s travel times are attrocious enough as it is, especially compared to other mmogs. Since the day they nerfed mwds a few years ago instas became a requirement if you wanted to DO anything. Not everyone can play the game hrs a day. I've done 2-3hr transits without instas in a bs and to be frank... it sucks donkeynutz. POS Online... or "Approaching Stargate Online" I'm not sure which would be worse to be honest. Dukkie... you're hardcore man but the player base would never stand for it. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Kronarty Amarr Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:48:00 - [144] Make it also impossible to carry bookmarks in your cargo hold, otherwise the current exploits (shuttles with tons of bm's in hold) will be performed, with useless bookmarks but performed nonetheless, and nothing will be solved.
Infrared Raven Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:30:00 - [145] Originally by: Vincae Because they're so useful, they become required. Since they're not stored locally (too easily hacked, could just distribute bookmark files over the internet to others), they take up database space. The argument of "too easily hacked" is imho not valid. If you encrypt the bookmark-file with a personal key, generated and monitored by the server, there is no copying of bookmarks between different characters, and there is no hacking either. It probably takes a while when you start-up Eve to decrypt and load the bookmars to the client, but if someone has 10k bookmarks, he has to live with that... For Caracal, Thorax, Blackbird, Vexor, Osprey, Maller, Rupture and more Cruiser BPOs - Contact me.
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:32:00 - [146] What a lot of people are forgetting here is that once instas are removed everyone will be in the same boat. Which means: Q. What if I want to log on and go and play with friends 20 jumps away in deep 0.0. A. Your friends most probably wont be 20 jumps away anymore, since they only got 20 jumps away because of the fast travel insta. Q. Travel time is really boring. Why should I travel without instas for 2 hours? A. You dont have to travel that far. Its your choice to do so. Just because you are used to a certain method of play doesnt mean you cannot adjust to the speed EvE was originally designed to be played at. You can always quit EvE but I dont think you will be doing that now will you. Threaten all you like. Q. I will make much less isk per hour? A. Since the cost of most items is based entirely on the work it takes to get that item, prices may change but profits will still scale to the amount of work that you are doing. Click Me
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:12:00 - [147] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/08/2006 23:26:23 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Maya Rkell Of course you can get 2 bites if necessary. Your doom for keeping instas has not materialised. NONE of the effects you have ever claimed for it have materialised. lol What claims would they be, exactly? Oh, hang on, you are just making stuff up again, aren't you? yes, mock because you have no point, no momentum and no ability to see beyond your very narrow take on gameplay. Okay... I seem to be the one making the reasoned arguements, and you are the one who just screams "No!" whilst doing a little feet stomping, but let us continue regardless. In this mornings post we shall address the claim that I have "no ability to see beyond your very narrow take on gameplay." What do I want: No instas. What do I not want: Warp to 0km What do I propose: Warp to 0km funtionality to be available only via module usage. My proposal takes the middleground between what I consider the best and worst possible solutions. What would benefit me most personally is Warp to 0km, and Eve would best be served by removing instas completely. I am able to put to one side my selfish urges to gratify myself by crying for warp to 0km, because I can see there is a bigger picture. Why bother making the game easier for me when all it will serve to do is cheapen the game as a whole? Ultimately all warp to 0km would do is make it easier to play a game no longer worth playing. Let me leave you with a little poem before I head out to work: Originally by: "IF" by Rudyard Kipling If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream-and not make dreams your master; If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two imposters just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!" If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings-nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And-which is more-you'll be a Man, my son! The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:24:00 - [148] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. This seems reasonable to me. Though I would increase the 150km to 500km to ensure that you remove the sniper points as well. Other than that seems good. The game is going to be severely hurt by the removal of mass copying of bms or removal of bms. Travel is the main reason they were invented, not as a means of escaping gate camps. Of course they increased in popularity because they were really pretty much the only defense against gate camps. I sincerely hope they will implement your suggestions above, though I'd go out to 500km instead of 150km. You could extend this to stations as well as stargates as well. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Infrared Raven Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:27:00 - [149] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Q. Travel time is really boring. Why should I travel without instas for 2 hours? A. You dont have to travel that far. Its your choice to do so. Just because you are used to a certain method of play doesnt mean you cannot adjust to the speed EvE was originally designed to be played at. Oh you are right, I can just sit in the same system for the two hours a day I play EVE, on my own with all these fancy roids and npc pirates and die because of boredom... Unfortunately there is not enuff "stuff" (and players) in one system (0.0) to keep you busy for more than 15 minutes, we are forced to travel around... For Caracal, Thorax, Blackbird, Vexor, Osprey, Maller, Rupture and more Cruiser BPOs - Contact me.
Sharcy Sonnema	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:44:00 - [150] With so many BM/insta thread, as much as I hate crossposting, I'll repeat myself here: *Warp-in distance = System Security rating 20.000 0.0: 0km 0.1: 2km 0.5: 10km 1.0: 20km Eliminate the possibility to create a BM within 150km of a station or gate. -- Sonnema is recruiting!**

Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:57:00 - [151] Originally by: Sharcy With so many BM/insta thread, as much as I hate crossposting, I'll repeat myself here: *Warp-in distance = System Security rating 20.000** 0.0: 0km 0.1: 2km 0.5: 10km 1.0: 20km Eliminate the possibility to create a BM within 150km of a station or gate. This wouldn't work good. Why should you be allowed to warp in closer in 0.0 than in 1.0. Wouldn't 1.0 be more secure? It needs to be the same no matter where it is in the game. The Instas were originally made by people seeking to save time on travel. Without them the game takes really far to long to play. Making it such that folks would have to travel that much further just to do simple level 1 and 2 missions is really going to hurt the retention of future players. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:05:00 - [152] Originally by: Maya Rkell People you NEVER mentioned or complained about before, that you made up for this argument. Previous reference and I'd believe you. None such. Actually, I can't take credit for "making up" macro bookmark copiers...I saw it in another thread, and it seemed a reasonable proposition. And this is just another example of you setting an impossible task before you'll agree to anything. To get your "proof" I'd have to get someone to state somewhere that the use macros for copying bookmarks...since that's a bannable offence, I don't see much likelihood of that. I think we can BOTH agree though...the 5 copy limit will only INCREASE the tendency for macros to be used. And no, it is your clearly stated attitude. Shrug, it's a datum now. Never stated any such thing. How IS the weather on your planet? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:06:00 - [153] Originally by: Jallen Now, if they decide to make it so that WCS don't work on the otherside of the gate, that would be highly debatable. To long and people would WBM. Since I don't support the "not allowed to make bookmarks within 150km of a gate" idea, this is the problem point for me...ANY penalty to using the 0km warp option and people will revert to what they know...they'll make insta's again to avoid the penalty. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Sharcy Sonnema	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:11:00 - [154] Originally by: Mecinia Lua This wouldn't work good. Why should you be allowed to warp in closer in 0.0 than in 1.0. Wouldn't 1.0 be more secure? It needs to be the same no matter where it is in the game. The Instas were originally made by people seeking to save time on travel. Without them the game takes really far to long to play. Making it such that folks would have to travel that much further just to do simple level 1 and 2 missions is really going to hurt the retention of future players. With this proposal, the carebears and traders loose a little and gain a little: longer travel times in high sec (invest in MWD's and AB's), have more security in low sec. No solution can ever make everybody happy. I think this one is fair and what's more, it might lure a lot more people to low-sec, which has been a goal for CCP. -- Sonnema is recruiting!
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:29:00 - [155] Originally by: Sharcy Originally by: Mecinia Lua This wouldn't work good. Why should you be allowed to warp in closer in 0.0 than in 1.0. Wouldn't 1.0 be more secure? It needs to be the same no matter where it is in the game. The Instas were originally made by people seeking to save time on travel. Without them the game takes really far to long to play. Making it such that folks would have to travel that much further just to do simple level 1 and 2 missions is really going to hurt the retention of future players. With this proposal, the carebears and traders loose a little and gain a little: longer travel times in high sec (invest in MWD's and AB's), have more security in low sec. No solution can ever make everybody happy. I think this one is fair and what's more, it might lure a lot more people to low-sec, which has been a goal for CCP. Apparently you've never moved a barge or industrial or transport very much. Because even with a ab or a mwd it still takes 3 or 4 times the time any other ship. Your proposal is a bad one, it will not work. If you want to run people off from the game be sure they implement that. It doesn't give anything to the miners/traders, all it would do is ensure more griefer Hi Sec wars because they know that the traders would have to pop out at 20km and would never stand a chance of making the gate before they destroyed them.... Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Sharcy Sonnema	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:38:00 - [156] Edited by: Sharcy on 31/08/2006 08:39:06 Originally by: Mecinia Lua If you want to run people off from the game be sure they implement that. It doesn't give anything to the miners/traders, all it would do is ensure more griefer Hi Sec wars because they know that the traders would have to pop out at 20km and would never stand a chance of making the gate before they destroyed them.... Risk vs. rewards. People would adapt. In some cases, prices would rise because some traders would be put off. But then higher prices would make the risk and time worth it again. Traders might hire armed escorts (new careerpath?). I am a trader and yes, I run industrials occasionally, without insta's, if the reward is big enough for my time. You are looking at this from a single point of view, and like I said, that's impossible with this issue. The BM's have to go, that's for sure. Warping to 0km everywhere would be too easy and ruin more of EVE than gain. -- Sonnema is recruiting!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:10:00 - [157] Originally by: Grey Area ANY penalty to using the 0km warp option and people will revert to what they know...they'll make insta's again to avoid the penalty. Which is why CCP have to delete all current instas, and make it impossible to create new ones. You know what the common term for avoiding intended penalties is, right? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:24:00 - [158] We're way past that Avon. Once it was crime to be *, then someone accepted it was human nature, and now it's largely accepted. Bookmarks are the same (including being a bit *). Since there ARE valid reasons for bookmarks to be made within 150km of a gate, the easiest solution is to have nothing that makes people want instajump bookmarks nay more...so no penalties for the new system. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Arrianne Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:27:00 - [159] Originally by: Avon CCP have to delete all current instas, and make it impossible to create new ones. No. CCP have to delete all current instas, then make it POINTLESS to create new gate to gate instas. And, for clarification, all other BMs can stay. . . . . . . . . . To relent against the adept path of the past is key in developing a sense of unambigious faith in what the former brings to the latter - Jefferson Thorpe
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:16:00 - [160] No, Avon, you argue nothing aginst 0km warps except "they're too easy". Well, I and the majority of the players in this and other threads disagree with you and the others of the Nerf [23]. You propose a straight-up selective nerf to ships, based on your extremely narrow big-3 alliance gameplay, and claim that they can be forgone in most situations. You also claim that it distorts travel time ratios (proven untrue), and so on. There is no "comprimise", that can only be achieved via negociation. Nerfing ships is your first-offer, and one which I cannot engage seriously with as a proposal because of the selective nerfing effects. And yes, Avon, the common term for doing something which is outside the current systems is called "inovative" and "smart". There is one one company which can call something an exploit and that is CCP - who are the sole arbitrators of said definition. Grey Area, it's WHEN you introduced them as a "special surprise" to win an arguiment. And yes yes, you hate newbs. We know. //Maya

ParMizaN Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:25:00 - [161] Agreed on removing instas entirely in liu of something else such as TWD's idea. sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris Pink is overrated, yellow is the new pink - Xorus
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:53:00 - [162] Edited by: Athren Soulsteal on 31/08/2006 19:54:38 Look at Mecinia LuaÆs post on page 2 of this post, QFT Quote: Originally by: Syris Anu Just because people have been exploiting game mechanics in a certain way for years doesn't mean that: 1. It shouldn't be changed. 2. Everyone will leave if it is This also true, but I offer a different truth: Quote: ItÆs not a bug unless itÆs derogatory to the game play, if it is simply an annoyance then itÆs not a bug or loophole itÆs an unintended game feature. This was the DevÆs response to the first gate camp. Do your points 1 and 2 apply here? There are two (2) different issues here: 1.Travel time. EVE is a game and a game must be fun. Long travel times are not fun for anyone. I personally have started a 30 plus jump through high sec and went shopping for the months groceries and have come back to have 5 jumps left so by the time I have put up the groceries and had time to take a shower before finely arriving at my destination 4.3 hours after starting. I can not see anyone having fun spending most of their play time watching your ship move from gate to gate. Instas are used to try and relive some of the boredom of traveling but realistically it like playing a game of whack-a-mole with only one (1) hole. 2.Gate camps have become the main place to catch other players to dish out some pain. Most fighting in EVE now happens at gates because you can be lazy and have your victims come to you. The point here is that even though gate camping was originally thought of as an exploit CCP allowed it, and Instas, to remain in game so both have become the de facto play style. They are counterbalancing issues, instas are there to balance camping and camping is thereà err sorry I forgot the reason CCP allowed camping, was something to do with the same reason the Romans had coliseums, it kept the players from noticing the state of things. Anyway, jumping to 0 dist would be good for travelers, builders, traders and such but would suck for those that did not want to work for their isk. Keep in mind that CCP is historically based in PKer culture so donÆt look for a change that would make life harder for that crowd. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:56:00 - [163] Originally by: PSEWAR I also like the idea that bookmarks can only be copied in stations and a shared bookmark folder for the corp and all bookmark problems are removed. That sucks. Players in NPC corps don't get any bookmarks? When you leave your corp you lose your bookmarks for the region all your stuff is in? How about - NOT. I have been given copies of some of my corp mate's and alliance mate's bookmarks. I can't tell what half of them are for, the naming scheme is so inscrutible. -- Guile should always trump hardware --
Zirator Times of Ancar R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:58:00 - [164] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. /signed I can only hope that we actually get an official reply on this hotly discussed topic.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:10:00 - [165] Originally by: Maya Rkell No, Avon, you argue nothing aginst 0km warps except "they're too easy". Well, I and the majority of the players in this and other threads disagree with you and the others of the Nerf [23]. Tin foil hat time Originally by: Maya You propose a straight-up selective nerf to ships, based on your extremely narrow big-3 alliance gameplay, and claim that they can be forgone in most situations. You also claim that it distorts travel time ratios (proven untrue), and so on. First, I made these proposals well before I joined ANY alliance .. in fact, probably before there were in-game alliances. Second, I never made any claims about time ratios, that was someone else. However, we all know you aren't one to let facts get in the way of dogma. Originally by: Maya There is no "comprimise", that can only be achieved via negociation. Nerfing ships is your first-offer, and one which I cannot engage seriously with as a proposal because of the selective nerfing effects. Nerfing ships to travel faster? Is a MWD a nerf? Is an afterburner a nerf? Is an overdrive a nerf? /me shrugs. Originally by: Maya And yes, Avon, the common term for doing something which is outside the current systems is called "inovative" and "smart". You are slightly misrepresenting what I said. Still, that's nothing new for you, is it? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Maketa	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:26:00 - [166] i suggest also to put in warp in 0 km off gate ,because as couriermissionrunner in high sec there is no danger for getting in collision with gatecampers . But than in low sec the option also has to be 0 km because of pirates or other pilots wants to gatecamp they have to use a module that can break your warp bbefore you reach jumpdistance through gate . It is easy and a cowwerd act to lay gatecamping and wait till a indy warps at 15 k off a gate and pop him , you gatecampers have to do some effort to get one popped and use modules to break warp , voila that is my point off view and i know one thing when you remove bm's and don't put in a warp to 0 km i leave and many will follow !!!!! So ccp think and do this time something for the ones that are empire pilots and not always give the 0.0 pilots all the presents because that is what happened in the past !!!
Akorin Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:31:00 - [167] Edited by: Akorin on 31/08/2006 20:32:20 I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I like insta's and the bookmark system the way they are. They take quite a lot of time and effort to get right and when you finally do get them up it feels like a real accomplishment and like you "own" that piece of space after carefully planning your way around the gates. I know there's still the lag problem but a "warp to 0km" option doesn't sound practical, may as well just outfit all ships with jump drives The only real problem I see is the mass bookmarkers doing it for profit and the people who buy them. I think I have about 200 bms I collected over 2 years of play (each one made personally) and I rather feel entitled to em after that much playtime.. Not like our whinging will make a difference anyway.. CCP will work something out edit: re: gatecamping, just use a bubble already
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:05:00 - [168] Originally by: Clementina I counted all my bookmarks, I have exactly 1663 bms. Not "tens of thousands". Everyone add the number of bms that you posses. Let's see how many there actually are. I have about 2500 but half of those are offline in shuttle cargo bays. Once I put them back in P&P, they won't be copied out of P&P to cargo bays ever again, because of the 5 BM copy limit. I try to keep BM in P&P only for the area I am operating in, because I realize they cause lag and strain the system every time I jump or dock, and it's also a pain to deal with the one-level folder structure in P&P. But with the 5 BM copy limit, will be forced to always keep them in P&P to avoid the even more arduous copying process that is coming. So considering the way I use BM, the copy limit will cause me to impose more strain on server resources than I had been. -- Guile should always trump hardware --
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:12:00 - [169] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 31/08/2006 22:13:52 Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) Can't sign on to that, not unless you can choose your warp-to distance out to 150km or more. I think you ought to be able to warp to within any desired distance of a warpable object, from 0km to Distance-to-Object minus Minimum-Warp-Distance (150km). If you want to warp to within 12AU of a gate that is 30AU away, I see no reason not to enable that. Doing this would also eliminate the need to make coordinate bookmarks, and would not nerf sniping or other tactical uses for the ability to come out of warp 10s or 100s of km from a gate. If you need a SS for an ammo stash or whatever, anchor a can and BM the can. -- Guile should always trump hardware --
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.31 23:45:00 - [170] Originally by: Infrared Raven Originally by: Infinity Ziona Q. Travel time is really boring. Why should I travel without instas for 2 hours? A. You dont have to travel that far. Its your choice to do so. Just because you are used to a certain method of play doesnt mean you cannot adjust to the speed EvE was originally designed to be played at. Oh you are right, I can just sit in the same system for the two hours a day I play EVE, on my own with all these fancy roids and npc pirates and die because of boredom... Unfortunately there is not enuff "stuff" (and players) in one system (0.0) to keep you busy for more than 15 minutes, we are forced to travel around... Maybe you should play another game. Click Me

Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.31 23:46:00 - [171] From my earliest days in Eve, I have been seriously involved in BMs. The thing I am most well known for, is superior Insta BMs (at least for the ones I make) I will lose a LOT of invested labor if Insta BMs are deleted from game. Its in my personal interest, in a BIG way, for Insta BMs to stay in game. But I don't worry about it much. I don't restrict myself to one narrow aspect of the game. Keeps the mind from becoming frozen and narrow..... If Insta BMs are gone from the game tomorrow, I'll adapt, even if there is no replacement. Having said all of that...... 1. Everyone knows that BMs have an effect on the server. The exact nature of that effect is debated (some folks would blame global warming on BMs....), but that there is an effect is not debated. At minimum there is a problem of BM copying inducing lag IN THAT SYSTEM. Some folks claim that other lag and server problems are also BM related..... It is this first issue that has spured CCP to action. Specificly, the "in that system" lag problem. ----------------- 2. There is debate on BMs making folks nearly immune to harm. In an Interceptor or some of the fastest frigs, maybe, assuming your reflexes are good and you have a good computer. In all other cases, only blind fools make this argument, and everyone knows the details why such folks are fools, including the fools in question (If you want to be taken seriously, state the situation as it is, not as you want people to believe it is....). Only an idiot thinks he can run an Iteron V with Instas through a serious gate camp and live. However, this second issue is NOT what has spured CCP to action..... -------------------- 3. If BMs are made harder to get, it will strengthen veterans who have them, while nerfing newbies who will have a harder time getting them. If BMs remain available on the market, just at a higher, but "attainable" price, and if Corps can make them available to their members, then this point is actually fairly minor. It will not be the first time, nor the last time, that a problem was fixed this way. And rightly so. Never let "fairness" freeze you into inaction. Only failure can be achieved by such devotion to fairness. Fairness comes at a cost, sometimes a cost FAR higher than the unfair situation. However.... If BMs become completely out of reach, harder to obtain than a character's first battleship, then the situation would be "broken". BMs being expensive is ok. BMs being unabtainable for typical players is NOT ok (noobs are not "typical"). ---------------------- 4. And then there is the "red herring" issue of deleting all Insta BMs. CCP is dealing with a specific problem (see point #1). The problem in question has NOTHING to do with the existance of Insta BMs. Even if all Insta BMs were deleted, it would not fix the problem CCP is addressing (go ahead, prove you can't read and try and debate me on this) Deleting all Instas IS a valid issue for debate, but on this patch it is a pure red herring issue. Still, this thread started as, and has remained, a debate on Insta BMs, so its a valid topic for the thread. ------------------ 5. Then we get to the issue of this thread. If Instas are deleted, should there be a "replacement"? The game mechanics surrounding Instas are a CORE part of the game. While this undebatable fact is so clear that only a moron among morons could disagree, it is not, by itself, a valid argument that Instas should not all be deleted. Deleting Instas would fundamentally change the game. All sane folks agree on this. Those who do not are so disconnected from reality that their opinions should be ignored as meaningless raving. The question is this: Eventually, if Instas are deleted without replacement, there will be a new equalibrium. Would this new equalibrium be an improvement? TWD's suggestion deletes Instas, but no new equalibrium. DC's makes a new equilibrium snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Lake The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.01 00:01:00 - [172] This has been mentioned a few times already but I think alot of people are still missing one major point about this suggestion: It's crunch time. BMs are a huge issue technically. There needs to be a fix now. Immediate gameplay changes without extensive careful testing and evaluation can be disastrous. The proposal offers a technical solution with a virtually net-zero gameplay change. This allows a well considered and thoroughly examined solution to be introduced whenever it's ready. Even potentially phased in slowly, letting the player base adjust as well as providing feedback for other adjustments to balance the changes. One note about the suggestion itself though: I don't think you need to actually eliminate the ability to create BMs within 150km of a gate. Traveling BMs make up such a large portion of the total BMs that simply purging the DB of any BMs within, say, 30km of the gate should eliminate enough entries in the table to alleviate load issues (and thus load-related exploits). People won't replace them so long as there's no need.
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.01 00:24:00 - [173] Originally by: DigitalCommunist While it solves the lag issue, it does nothing to solve the gameplay issue. Giving everyone 0km warp distance is just a replacement for what we have. What we have is utter crap, and should not exist. Period. Thus, its not a very good solution as it doesn't address several bad things about instajumps: - they make travel too safe - they make travel too fast - they cost nothing to use - they never fail Sorry TWD Well, quite frankly, I dont think the PVPers will be happy until every last person has to slow boat 30KM to the gate at a max speed of 3kms. IMO. If you want to PVP, the hunter should be the one at a disadvantage. The huntee should be the favored. In any solution. ________________________________________________________
Muthsera S.A.S	Posted - 2006.09.01 00:48:00 - [174] Edited by: Muthsera on 01/09/2006 00:50:39 God damnit. How long do we have to argue about this. The solution is right there. It have close to no drawbacks. And the small ones it have, sure as h* get overshadowed by the positive impact it have. Do the damn warp to 0m thing allready. And the autopilot to 15km. 95% of bookmark problem solved. In an instant. Sick and tired of having 3k bookmarks and having to copy 300 bm's when ever I'm moving somewhere new. Simply saying that not everyone have all gtg bm's in eve is a bull argument. Becus if you have any hopes of excelling in deep. You simply have to have them. Fact is. You got to be close to stupid if you travel in 0.0 whitout bm's. You spend 30 days on a skill that gives you 2% more damage and you whould not even bother to sort out something that whould save your pod? BM's are not an option, it's a must in 0.0 P E R I O D** Doing a "warp to 0m" change just levels the playing field to everyone, and not just to the ones who bother to take the effort of actually copy/make them. *Edit: Either that or just get rid of them entierly. No bm's on the gate grid at all. Rabble
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.01 02:01:00 - [175] To the three posters above. Warp to 0 is not an immediate fix, warp to 0 is an immediate screwup that will require a fix later. So please, shut up, and let the people that have been working on EvE and have the complete picture in front of them, decide, what is the required response to the insta problem. Suggestions are great but statements of fact based on speculation are not. Click Me
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.09.01 02:40:00 - [176] Edited by: Siege on 01/09/2006 02:42:49 No, the 'warp to 0' option is really not a valid one. It basically eliminates a massive amount of pvp combat. If you can 'warp to 0', then you will basically be able to dock at any station you want and evade almost any gate camp that doesn't have a bubble or interdictor. Some combat will still happen.... but if everybody can just warp to a gate at 0, then turn on autopilot while in warp, you're just not going to see much combat anywhere. I don't remember it myself, but some folks from back in Beta claim to it being there, and combat was almost nonexistant. If anybody can confirm or deny that, please do so, because it was 4-5 years ago probably. So, use bubbles/interdictors you say? Bubbles are too static and expensive already for newer players. Interdictor spheres are skill intensive and expensive too. So newer corps and players without the money and skills won't be able to engage or disengage combat except at a big disadvantage. And if you basically make bubbles a mandatory item for PvP, then the prices will get even more out of reach than they are now. What about a skill based system? Again, penalizes newer players harshly when they are waiting long enough as it is to hit Small Turret III or other skills we take for granted. Ok, so what about a module that makes you warp to 0 if fitted? I can just imagine the howling calls for NERF by the PVP crowd if you make another "Can't Catch Me" type module. We get enough complaining about stabs right now. But my big issue is that without instas, the current system most penalizes ships that are big and slow. 15km in an interceptor with MWD is just a few seconds, which is less time than it takes for many larger ships to even get a lock on them. But larger ships at 15km can take a minute or more. And they are instantly lockable and fast ships can swarm and tackle them real quick. So the issue isn't really the distance itself, the distance is only PART of the equation. The real issue is the TIME it takes to come out of warp and approach a gate/station. Make this time too short, and some ships are too close to invulnerable. Make this time too long, and travel time goes up dramatically as does vulnerability. Instas or fast ships cause problem number one. No instas and big ships cause problem number two. So, what about if the warp-to distance wasn't based on a specific distance or player skill or module, but on the ship class itself that gives an average time to approach the gate. For instance, have freighters warp in at something like 5km, which just a wild guess would take about 10 seconds to travel to the gate. Battleships at 7km. Cruisers at 10km. Frigates at 12km. Interceptors at 15km. Of course this would have to be tweaked depending on how it pans out, I am just tossing the numbers in to give an idea of the concept. But this would give players a valid alternative to instas (good). It would cut down on travel times (good). ALL players would have immediate access (Good in most opinions I have seen). PvP guys would still have a chance (good). But so would slower ships getting through (good). Anyways, that is just an alternate train of thought. Flame away folks.
Ramjam Giles Trading Union Corp Free Space Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.01 03:22:00 - [177] Warp to 0 km is the only replacement they can have for bm's. PvP'ers would still get their action as most combat happens at the entry gate which would remind uneffected.
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:16:00 - [178] Originally by: Siege Edited by: Siege on 01/09/2006 02:42:49 No, the 'warp to 0' option is really not a valid one. It basically eliminates a massive amount of pvp combat. If you can 'warp to 0', then you will basically be able to dock at any station you want and evade almost any gate camp that doesn't have a bubble or interdictor. Some combat will still happen.... but if everybody can just warp to a gate at 0, then turn on autopilot while in warp, you're just not going to see much combat anywhere. I don't remember it myself, but some folks from back in Beta claim to it being there, and combat was almost nonexistant. If anybody can confirm or deny that, please do so, because it was 4-5 years ago probably. So, use bubbles/interdictors you say? Bubbles are too static and expensive already for newer players. Interdictor spheres are skill intensive and expensive too. So newer corps and players without the money and skills won't be able to engage or disengage combat except at a big disadvantage. And if you basically make bubbles a mandatory item for PvP, then the prices will get even more out of reach than they are now. What about a skill based system? Again, penalizes newer players harshly when they are waiting long enough as it is to hit Small Turret III or other skills we take for granted. Ok, so what about a module that makes you warp to 0 if fitted? I can just imagine the howling calls for NERF by the PVP crowd if you make another "Can't Catch Me" type module. We get enough complaining about stabs right now. But my big issue is that without instas, the current system most penalizes ships that are big and slow. 15km in an interceptor with MWD is just a few seconds, which is less time than it takes for many larger ships to even get a lock on them. But larger ships at 15km can take a minute or more. And they are instantly lockable and fast ships can swarm and tackle them real quick. So the issue isn't really the distance itself, the distance is only PART of the equation. The real issue is the TIME it takes to come out of warp and approach a gate/station. Make this time too short, and some ships are too close to invulnerable. Make this time too long, and travel time goes up dramatically as does vulnerability. Instas or fast ships cause problem number one. No instas and big ships cause problem number two. So, what about if the warp-to distance wasn't based on a specific distance or player skill or module, but on the ship class itself that gives an average time to approach the gate. For instance, have freighters warp in at something like 5km, which just a wild guess would take about 10 seconds to travel to the gate. Battleships at 7km. Cruisers at 10km. Frigates at 12km. Interceptors at 15km. Of course this would have to be tweaked depending on how it pans out, I am just tossing the numbers in to give an idea of the concept. But this would give players a valid alternative to instas (good). It would cut down on travel times (good). ALL players would have immediate access (Good in most opinions I have seen). PvP guys would still have a chance (good). But so would slower ships getting through (good). Anyways, that is just an alternate train of thought. Flame away folks. If you want to take a big combat fitted ship through fast then you gang with a frigate, can be a disposable alt and you do that little bit of work to take the frig 15k past the gate and then warp to it. That way you get insta jump, you get to scout first and the benefit of very fast travel is offset by the requirement of a bit of work. Otherwise, I can get my Raven to 1.9kms by itself with a travel setup. You know how fast that gets it to the gate? Click Me
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:30:00 - [179] Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 01/09/2006 06:44:36 Originally by: Infinity Ziona To the three posters above. Warp to 0 is not an immediate fix, warp to 0 is an immediate screwup that will require a fix later. So please, shut up, and let the people that have been working on EvE and have the complete picture in front of them, decide, what is the required response to the insta problem. Suggestions are great but statements of fact based on speculation are not. Getting rid of Instas has zero relationship to what CCP is fixing also. Absolutely 100% zero relationship. Not even a tiny relationship. ANY Bookmark, insta or not, could be used for the problem CCP is fixing. Which is why this whole thread is one big red herring on the issue of alternatives to what CCP is fixing. Still, the thread is not invalid as a debate on an issue that is important to players and to CCP. It just has no bearing on the "5 BMs at a time" nerf. Warping to zero keeps game mechanics roughly as they are, but without using Insta Bookmarks. It might be a screw up, but not an Earth shattering one, as CORE game mechanics remain largely unchanged. No Instas and no warp to zero makes a fundamental CORE changes to game mechanics. You say it screws up nothing, others say it does. If they are right, it WOULD be earth shattering, because it IS a CORE mechanics change. Those who want "warp to zero" are suggesting the equivalent of an Oil Change. Those who want no instas and no "warp to zero" are suggesting the equivalent of removing the existing engine and putting in an UNPROVEN experimental engine that is NOT approved by the manufacturer. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.01 08:24:00 - [180] Edited by: Darcuese on 01/09/2006 08:24:31 ONE OF BIGGER problems with option "warp to 0 km" is this: IT will CUT DOWN current role of bubbles or sphere...make it less valuable. Why? Cause,atm, insta work from gate to gate mostly. With option "warp to 0 km" pilot can avoid that bubble if he warp from any direction other then gate. Cause ppl are puting bubbles judging on the traveling of other ppl (so its mostly on gate to gate direction...and not some belt or planet to gate) -------------------------------------------- Space available for advertising atm

Thelmarr	Posted - 2006.09.01 09:23:00 - [181] Originally by: Infinity Ziona If you want to take a big combat fitted ship through fast then you gang with a frigate, can be a disposable alt and you do that little bit of work to take the frig 15k past the gate and then warp to it. That way you get insta jump, you get to scout first and the benefit of very fast travel is offset by the requirement of a bit of work. Otherwise, I can get my Raven to 1.9kms by itself with a travel setup. You know how fast that gets it to the gate? So you first log in two accounts and clients in one computer (one trial since I damn sure wouldn't pay for 2 accounts just to have warpalt) (my comp and soon connection too can take it, but can others?). You warp in the frigate 15km from target, fly 30km, warp in the big ship and jump, fly 15km back to gate, jump your scout (while BS is waiting in safespot or such), warp to BS, warp to gate, rinse and repeat. Doesn't sound fast, definitely doesn't sound fun and sounds VERY much like work. How about we stop trying to push all the work to victims and instead think how to make travel fast, relatively dangerous but only in such situation where piwat actually WORKS for his kill. If pirate wants to do it easy and just lay back... Let him get no kills.
Lo3d3R Implant Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.09.01 09:34:00 - [182] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. Oh what a great idea, removing insta's by giving everyone a whole free map set of insta's if they are not afk, lowering the 'jump to' range wil ruin every pirates gameplay (and every other pvp-minded player for that matter), i doubt there be any left... well maybe some hardcore belt only pirates but for that part of the pirate profession you almost need to be some sort of masochist, as there are not allot of peoples in the belts. Pirates are a part of the game if there is not going be room for this in the future the game will end up beeing a combination of a npc grinding factory and blobwars 'pvp' in 0.0 with a touch of empire wars, the spice is gone. (yes also for you temporary pirates that just want to shoot that hauler in 0.3 because you can and have enough sec-status anyway, you know who you are ) So in my not totally objective point of view this would be a very bad insta fix, the word insane and gamebreaking keep coming to mind in a future where you can't chase, or catch anyone at a gate or station. Even a compromise like lowering the 'jump to' range isnt an option the 12 ~ 16 km (about) wasnt chosen because they were such pretty numbers, they did it for a reason i hope CCP remembers this themselves also, lowering it is also a bad idea... sure you could chase someone but hey not much use anymore, it can be hard enough to chase someone as it is. I hope CCP doesnt listen the people that want 'free insta's' and say no to the descruction of non-consentual pvp wich is one of the key features of EVE and whats made this game fun atleast for me and allot of others. ahoy ___________________ Eating Chopped Bear:
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.01 09:47:00 - [183] FIRST: mods need to sticky an insta thread, this 200 threads per month on instas is just silly. SECOND: CCP has stated something should change and that the current insta situation is causing problems FACT. So all posts saying "no this is stupid idea leave instas how they are you are all noobs" should be deleted for off topic. THIRD: WE need to come up with some format for posting ideas so they are quick to review, easy to understand. Any proposals? FOURTH: LOSE the smacktalk and flames! This helps nothing, no one and most of all makes you looks silly. FIFTH: We need to summarise at the start of such a thread the current proposals and their advantages/disadvantages. Think of the ship index thread, it's mostly neat organised and easy to look at. CCP has asked us for suggestions so we should give them what we think in an easy to understand, flame free, constructive manner. SIXTH: Once we have summaries of all existing ideas, all previous threads on the topic should be locked. This stops people searching and then replying to old threads. This is a topic that comes up so often there needs to be a sticky/index of suggested solutions. Maybe use the Ship setups index thread and link to the different ideas? IMHO: There needs to be a complete overhaul of the stargate system of travel, obviously this won't happen before Kali so a temporary solution needs to be implemented. I would like to see some balance met between 0-10km warp + low sec bubbles + war target selective bubbles + removal of all existing instas. I don't like the idea of a module or skill. I like the idea of ship class/speed affecting travel time. ----------- Could a mod please address the sticky part (if not why not) and can we please keep these threads to ideas and constructive criticism and NOT flames and personal attacks. -elliott
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.01 09:51:00 - [184] Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. The problem i see here is the removal of all bookmarks within 150km. What about for people who don't have t2 ammo who want a sniping point? What is the problem with autopilot being able to warp to 0km? (i have some idea why some won't like this)
rig0r 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:00:00 - [185] Edited by: rig0r on 01/09/2006 10:00:59 I don't understand why so many people think how the warp-to-gate-at-0km idea is different from the current situation, using insta's. Both get you on the gate. Both will get you in a bubble if it is anchored. Both will get you in a sphere if one is launched. I understand the pirate argument, that's why bubbles & spheres should be deployable in <= 0.4, or <= 0.2 perhaps. Besides, those without bookmarks after the patch will be seriously ****** by those who do have bookmarks. The older players will get an even bigger advantage over the noobs. So, like TWD said, implement a warp-to-gate-at-0km option. Gates only. Autopilot still warps @ 15km. Remove all bookmarks within 100km from gate, or let people remove them theirselves as they are prettymuch useless anyway. While you're at it, make people unable to jump or dock if they are scrambled for enough points. Advantages: - fast travel for those at keyboard - no changes for those that travel afk - does not affect PvP (bubbles/spheres still work) - speed up the client ppl & places loading time - making bookmarks in warp would be accurate again - save a lot of db space Disadvantages: - none kthxbye. Eve rocks on Linux
Dukath	Posted - 2006.09.01 10:12:00 - [186] Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: TWD Collected from previous ideas. - Remove all bookmarks close to gates (within 150km) - Make it impossible to create them close to gates (within 150km again) - Make warp to at 0km possible - Make minimum default warp range 15km so people can't afk travel and benefit from the instant jumping. This will effectively make no difference to players at all, while solving the bookmark problem. I believe this will satsify the majority of the players. The problem i see here is the removal of all bookmarks within 150km. What about for people who don't have t2 ammo who want a sniping point? What is the problem with autopilot being able to warp to 0km? (i have some idea why some won't like this) Instajumps are one of the bugs that ruin player content in 0.0. Sure you'll get more people in 0.0 with warp to 0 and instas but a lot less player content. And player content is the ONLY core feature of the game. Remove player content and eve is a mere shadow of the great game it could have been. Like it or not but slow travel is a core requirement for getting good 0.0 player content. Right now you simply cannot create an empire in 0.0, or at least it is impossible to defend it. Simply because any invader has a completely safe base of operations closeby (closeby meaning less than 20 jumps) Also there is no bonus for the defense since the invaders can simply fit their ships for maximum combat in stead of mixing speed with combat module. It is not the only problem (non persistent ships are another big problem ruining 0.0 space) but it is a big factor. Just replacing it by warp to 0 legitimises this problem and will only cause more problems later in eve. Instas cause nerfs. why? because thanks to instajumps people can always fit their ships to the max. All gank modules in low slot, uber tanks while still getting max travel speed. Those setups are very powerfull, people get ganked everywhere and think they are overpowered, thus they want them nerfed. But without instas those setups would be a lot more rare. People won't be able to afford to fit pure gank or tank or they can't get anywhere. (of course some carebears would rather leave the game than sacrifice a low slot, but do you really want the game dumbed down even more?) Instas make NPC 0.0 stations too powerfull. Why create your own outpost or place a POS when you can easily haul stuff to an NPC station 10 jumps out anyway? They make defense impossible. Ever tried to catch a roving gang in your space? By the time you hear someone has been ganked they are already back in empire. Travel while being boring sometimes simply needs to be slow, otherwise the game will die.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.01 11:05:00 - [187] Originally by: Darcuese Edited by: Darcuese on 01/09/2006 08:30:14 ONE OF BIGGER problems with option "warp to 0 km" is this: IT will CUT DOWN current role of bubbles or sphere...make it less valuable. Why? Cause,atm, insta work from gate to gate mostly. With option "warp to 0 km" pilot can avoid that bubble if he warp from any direction other then gate. Cause ppl are puting bubbles judging on the traveling of other ppl (so its mostly on gate to gate direction...and not some belt or planet to gate----that ppl dont have insta for) lol, its people like you who created Instas in the first place.... using your damn brain..... Good point. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.01 12:15:00 - [188] Edited by: Darcuese on 01/09/2006 12:22:15 BAh, pause on work again so i can write again on this subject. Problems with LAG that is influanced by Bookmarks are not bookmarks themself. Problem started when it was enabled for them to be copied. Bookmark has it own purpose. To create a spot (ss, cans, etc), for you to travel faster (and in time, safer). The one that need speed and safety should have made some sacrifices. And that is spending time of making them. So, in return, he got BIG REWARD for TIME SPENT FOR MAKING THEM. And then came some lazzy ppl yaling.." I NEED THOSE BMs. GIVE THEM TO ME". And in time you got all community copying bookmarks all over space. And now you wonder why is there so many of them. Imagine situations if copying was prevented back in the past THose that are lazzy and dont wanna bother making bms WONT HAVE THEM. So you would have percentage of ppl flying insta from gate to gate ...and you would have those that would lose nerves when their target is playing with them. Definatly it would be lot more intersting near gates then it is now. And ofcourse...you would have many ppl that would whine about how long is take them to travel somewhere. Well..I dont give a crap about LAZZY ppl (not willing to make BM or fit some faster travel setup) that want all things to be brought for them on plate...or be EASIER -------------------------------------------- Space available for advertising atm
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.01 12:54:00 - [189] Originally by: Thelmarr Originally by: Infinity Ziona If you want to take a big combat fitted ship through fast then you gang with a frigate, can be a disposable alt and you do that little bit of work to take the frig 15k past the gate and then warp to it. That way you get insta jump, you get to scout first and the benefit of very fast travel is offset by the requirement of a bit of work. Otherwise, I can get my Raven to 1.9kms by itself with a travel setup. You know how fast that gets it to the gate? So you first log in two accounts and clients in one computer (one trial since I damn sure wouldn't pay for 2 accounts just to have warpalt) (my comp and soon connection too can take it, but can others?). You warp in the frigate 15km from target, fly 30km, warp in the big ship and jump, fly 15km back to gate, jump your scout (while BS is waiting in safespot or such), warp to BS, warp to gate, rinse and repeat. Doesn't sound fast, definitely doesn't sound fun and sounds VERY much like work. How about we stop trying to push all the work to victims and instead think how to make travel fast, relatively dangerous but only in such situation where piwat actually WORKS for his kill. If pirate wants to do it easy and just lay back... Let him get no kills. Another lazy post. Its an option, you dont have to do it, if you take the option, you get a reward, after a bit of work. If you say, 'oh no!' 'thats much too hard' then you dont take the option, do no work and get no benefit. Thats called reality. You can also get a 2nd person in your gang, a real person, fancy that, who can set the bookmark up for you with his frig. You can even pay him? Wow, wish we could pay people to do stuff for us in RL, oh wait, we can. Fancy that. The problem is you dont want to, you dont want to share any profit, all yours right, just want CCP to magically zip that ship over to the gate, no cost, no penalty, free free free. Fancy that. Click Me
Infrared Raven Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.01 13:49:00 - [190] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Infrared Raven Originally by: Infinity Ziona Q. Travel time is really boring. Why should I travel without instas for 2 hours? A. You dont have to travel that far. Its your choice to do so. Just because you are used to a certain method of play doesnt mean you cannot adjust to the speed EvE was originally designed to be played at. Oh you are right, I can just sit in the same system for the two hours a day I play EVE, on my own with all these fancy roids and npc pirates and die because of boredom... Unfortunately there is not enuff "stuff" (and players) in one system (0.0) to keep you busy for more than 15 minutes, we are forced to travel around... Maybe you should play another game. Maybe you should actually play the game and leave empire for a second. For Caracal, Thorax, Blackbird, Vexor, Osprey, Maller, Rupture and more Cruiser BPOs - Contact me.

Serapis Aote TBC Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.01 14:43:00 - [191] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 01/09/2006 14:44:23
Slaaght Bana Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.01 15:55:00 - [192] I'll join this thread as it seems to be the biggest on the Insta topic. My preferred solution would be to have a sliding scale of warp range down to 2km depending on how often you have travelled the route It makes sense that someone with a lot of prior local knowledge could drop their ship onto a penny, and can choose to override the default accuracy of the jump computer. Familiarity with the local solar winds etc. if you need a reason for RP. However a stranger to a system would have to trust their computer's accuracy which remains at 15km best. Current mechanisms seem to track how many times you've visited a system, and could perhaps be expanded to track how many times you've visited gates and stations.
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.09.01 15:59:00 - [193] I agree with TWD 100%. The goal is improved performance. I'd much rather have the ability to fight in a large fleet fight without lag than I would gank a dumb noob who doesn't have any bookmarks. People who don't have bookmarks tend to drop crappy loot.
Razor Jaxx Blind Vengeance	Posted - 2006.09.01 16:12:00 - [194] Ditto. 0km or 15km doesn't change a thing for me. The objective is to get rid of the instas' overhead, and put everyone on the same level. Instas for all, or instas for none, and lag for none. - [ BL1ND killboard ]
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.01 16:23:00 - [195] Originally by: Infrared Raven Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Infrared Raven Originally by: Infinity Ziona Q. Travel time is really boring. Why should I travel without instas for 2 hours? A. You dont have to travel that far. Its your choice to do so. Just because you are used to a certain method of play doesnt mean you cannot adjust to the speed EvE was originally designed to be played at. Oh you are right, I can just sit in the same system for the two hours a day I play EVE, on my own with all these fancy roids and npc pirates and die because of boredom... Unfortunately there is not enuff "stuff" (and players) in one system (0.0) to keep you busy for more than 15 minutes, we are forced to travel around... Maybe you should play another game. Maybe you should actually play the game and leave empire for a second. Yeah Your Right I should go to 0.0 and pretend it makes me special because of some sort of perceived 'hardness' of living out there. I have spent considerable time in all security space, and been involved in pretty much every activity you can be involved in. My comment stands, if you are unable to manage enough time to play eve the way it was designed then you should quit rather then whine and groan because your exploitmarks might be nerfed. IMO its not WHERE you live in EvE but HOW you live as this clearly shows: Fight Click Me


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