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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:48:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rells on 31/08/2006 03:48:59
The VAST majority of BMs are instas. So let me state my points in brief.
You cant kill instas without replacing them with an alternative or you will loose 2/3 of your customers and you know that, which is why you havent done anythign in 3 years. This upcomming patch is a very thinly veiled attempt to kill instas without putting in an alternative. The outcry is not suprising. A very small percentage of the player base is in favor of it and the vast majority against it vehemently.
Solution is to let people warp right ot within jump range of a gate and dock range of a station (only the very new and very clueless cant do this now). This is a simple solution and requires little to no code. I personally would delete ALL of my gate to gates if this happened and I wouldnt be alone.
Anyone flying for long in eve gets instas where they normally fly. I know I have personally copies all of mine dozes of times and every student in my courses gets sydicate pipes (main routes in syndicate) At any rate, lets analyze combat in eve. It happes in several instances:
1) When attempting to warp away from a gate.
2) When warping to a gate and caught by a bubble or warp disrupt probe.
3) Other tactical situations
Only RARELY do people get popped in 0.0 when crawling up to a gate and mostly those people are alts anyway from my observation. Therefore there is no reason to stop us warping to the gate.
Now there will be a small, very small, percent that disagree with me but who would you rather **** off? WOuld you rather have a huge majority of the player base mad at you or a few empire pirates that lack creativity, imagination and numbers. I personally dont think Jita ganking is so worth saving that we should break fundamental long running mechanics.
In the future you can give more ways to stop players and so on to make the situation more interesting.
Id LOVE to be left with only my tacticals and be able to delete my 31000 other BMs. Give me a chance. 
Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Kyguard
LFC
3rd Front Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:50:00 -
[2]
Rells for the ******* win.
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God is on the side with the best artillery. |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:52:00 -
[3]
Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire...
(The basic idea? Oh yea...)
//Maya |
Magnum III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:53:00 -
[4]
How about ask every one to stop being little babies and quit with depending on all the BM's?
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Kyguard
LFC
3rd Front Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:54:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Maya Rkell
Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire...
(The basic idea? Oh yea...)
Maya ftw too. (sometimes  ) T
This will probably bring the thread off-topic, but the only issue I can see with that is multiple corps camping one gate for different corps with dictor bubbles (imagine the lag.)
===
God is on the side with the best artillery. |
Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:58:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Rells on 31/08/2006 04:00:27
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire...
(The basic idea? Oh yea...)
Faction standing and war based bubbles would be good but that requires design. Lets let them sort this as a quick fix so we dont all get hammered and then they can convert some chineese cash to standing and war warp probes. Then the backstory is that the probe scans the ships and gives them the frequency of warp field to warp out while war and or low standing get caught (depending on kind of probe)
Originally by: Kyguard
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire...
(The basic idea? Oh yea...)
Maya ftw too. (sometimes ) T
This will probably bring the thread off-topic, but the only issue I can see with that is multiple corps camping one gate for different corps with dictor bubbles (imagine the lag.)
Improved graphics engine for the win. Obviously they need a quick fix. Lets fix it like my idea rather than **** off 90% of the plazer base.
Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:00:00 -
[7]
rells ftw i have to say, hit it spot on
Ore Mongers' 3rd lotto
Ebil piwat - Xorus |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:00:00 -
[8]
Wow rells good thing you brought this into peoples attention.They might have not noticed the tons of other threads saying the same thing.
CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? |
Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: xeom
Wow rells good thing you brought this into peoples attention.They might have not noticed the tons of other threads saying the same thing.
Perhaps but less eloquently 
Seriously though some people on this forum have rather bad communication skills. Calling people names when you want them to listen to you is not productive.
Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Tarquin Tarquinius
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:26:00 -
[10]
My idea was to limit the number of bookmarks a player can have. Only allow them to have a few hundred.
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The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. - an Amarr Mercenary |
Syris Anu
Evolutionary Pressure
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:35:00 -
[11]
You merely propose instas by another means. Look deeper. The real problem is that combat currently happens on the wrong side of the gate because of instas. When you blockade a gate, it should be against people warping to it, not jumping through. Currently, because of intas, you have to wait on the other side of the gate and try to get the traveler coming out of jump cloak, who has no chance to respond. This is lame for everyone involved. The way to fix this is to:
1. Eliminate gate instas.
BUT
2. Allow ships to jump back through the gate after 30 seconds *while still in jump cloak* (but still decloak automatically if they take no action for 60 seconds as normal).
Now anyone with half a clue can avoid gate camps, but *they cannot proceed past the gate without running or removing the blockade*. Give and take. Travelers get the assurance of being able to keep their ships safe from jump cloak ambush, defenders can actually hold territory by holding the gate on the warp in side without worry of a fleet or raider using instas to go by. We all benefit from better gameplay and less lag. To throw another bone on the pile, make jump clones easier to get to cut down on travel time.
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:42:00 -
[12]
This is crazy.
Originally by: Syris Anu
You merely propose instas by another means.
No. I didnt propose doing anything to instas except the planned making them slower to copy. Allowing poeple to warp to gates directly would merely mean they arent needed anymore. AT ALL.
Originally by: Syris Anu
Look deeper. The real problem is that combat currently happens on the wrong side of the gate because of instas. When you blockade a gate, it should be against people warping to it, not jumping through.
This is rubbish. Instas are used for multiple things including taking less than 10 hours to move a freighter 10 jumps and flying in 0.0 space (which you dont do obviously). Not having instas in high sec. Not having them in lowsec is annoying. Not having them in 0.0 is suicide.
Originally by: Syris Anu
Currently, because of intas, you have to wait on the other side of the gate and try to get the traveler coming out of jump cloak, who has no chance to respond. This is lame for everyone involved. The way to fix this is to:
No you dont. Use a bubble.
Originally by: Syris Anu
1. Eliminate gate instas.
BUT
And loose a huge percent of the eve playerbase to cancellations?
Originally by: Syris Anu
2. Allow ships to jump back through the gate after 30 seconds *while still in jump cloak* (but still decloak automatically if they take no action for 60 seconds as normal).
Silly, they could just keep jumping and ytou are looking at this from the point of view of a carebear.
Originally by: Syris Anu
Now anyone with half a clue can avoid gate camps, but *they cannot proceed past the gate without running or removing the blockade*. Give and take. Travelers get the assurance of being able to keep their ships safe from jump cloak ambush, defenders can actually hold territory by holding the gate on the warp in side without worry of a fleet or raider using instas to go by. We all benefit from better gameplay and less lag. To throw another bone on the pile, make jump clones easier to get to cut down on travel time.
Avoiding gate camps is only a very small issue in BMs. You clearly dont have the experince to understand how big of an issue it is. It is part of the game and cant be removed. Not to mention i have a couple hundred bms that are not instas.
Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
McTaggart
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:05:00 -
[13]
Edited by: McTaggart on 31/08/2006 05:06:35
Actually, not so sure...
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Syris Anu
Evolutionary Pressure
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:05:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Syris Anu on 31/08/2006 05:09:34
Edited by: Syris Anu on 31/08/2006 05:07:26
Edited by: Syris Anu on 31/08/2006 05:05:55
Rells, your argument for instas is fast movement of freighters, though you mock a carebear perspective. You say that they are essential for movement through 0.0 space. They are not. I can move through 0.0 space at will with proper ship fitting and attention to map. I never, ever get caught at a gate camp on the warp to a gate because I scan ahead, which anyone can do regardless of skill, ship, or mods. I have exactly 0 insta gate bookmarks, I have played for years, I travel wherever I please and quickly, too. Sometimes I don't go somewhere because I know there is a camp. You have to accept that sometimes you cannot go where you want because someone is holding the territory, there is a big blob, etc. Find another route or try another time.
If you are worried about people jumping back and forth every 30 seconds, let them. Who cares? What does that accomplish? How long are they going to keep it up? They are still blocked from proceeding. If you must, allow them to only do this once, after which they have to come out of jump cloak normally after they have jumped back from jump cloak. Plus, since there will be no way of getting easy insta-lock kills on things coming out of jump cloak, gate defenders will move to the other side of the gate and set up a blockade, which can be scanned, attacked, or run at player's choice and this issue will not even generally arise.
Gates are meant to be system switches and terrotorial linchpins, not insta kill zones. You should be able to know what you are facing before you go to one. You should also, from a defender's perspective, be able to blockade movement along a route in low security.
Your and other suggestions are not addressing the underlying problems. The problems are instas for safe travel and instas for fast travel. I have laid out how you take care of the safe travel problem. Fast travel is another problem that has nothing to do with instas. You can do it now with proper ship fits. You have to sacrfice something to move larger bulk. In Eve, that's speed. Jump clones, if available to more players, makes it possible to move your persona to where you want, up to six differnet locations.
You want to be able to move your entire inventory anywhere in the galaxy at a moment's notice at a drop of hat. Tough. If that were the case, there would be no point in playing Eve as everything would be the same price everywhere and territory would be indefensible. Now, if you want to propose NPC haulers or something along those lines to take the drudgery of hauling out of the game, that's an interesting concept, but the tools are already there for fast travel and gate safety with the tweak to game mechanics I described.
Also, even with current mechanics, I can move a freighter through empire without instas as fast as if it had instas. It just takes a team. I leave figuring out how to do this as an exercise for the reader.
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:12:00 -
[15]
0 km warp option is the real solution right now.
However, to prevent a small scale abuse, make it so the Autopilot still uses 15km warp, not 0 km warp. That way people traveling AFK wouldn't get advantage over current system.
The strategy of crippling bm copying is a bad one as it works in favor of old players who already have all the bms they need. It's unfair to all new players.
Many people seem to refuse the idea of 0 km warp on arguements that non-warp ship speed should matter in system travel. But that's a wrong arguement when instas are allowed to be in game. 0km warp would replace the instas, without changing balance of the game. All issues of warping right on top of your gate or station can be addressed separately and they should not depend on how that 0km warp was achieved, by means of insta or another interface option.
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:17:00 -
[16]
One reason why I don't like 0.0 is because I'm forced to copy BM's. I have nothing against travel times and because instas are De Facto in 0.0, I have no business what-so-ever go there.
And today is begining of my 3rd year in EVE. How sad that I don't have 31000+ BM's. 
Unnerf Amarr!
"Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must."
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SamtheDog
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:28:00 -
[17]
Edited by: SamtheDog on 31/08/2006 05:32:07
The OP is giving a thinly veiled rant to something he doesn't like in game...& is trying to use his perceived view of public opinion against CCP.
To the OP.....I say suck it up. CCP isn't nerfing bookmarks, they're not just letting people sit in stn copying thousands bookmarks for hours on end which slows things down. But you didn't want to add that did you? Perhaps it a way of getting rid of bookmark sales. Then again, large scale engagements...some turd decides to lag out the opponents by copying bookmarks! Oh noes! I can't make them crash or lag out so we can kill them easy anymore! OMG CCP is EVIL!!!  I want to have my exploits!
But they...we'll ignore that. So this brilliant lad suggests we all should warp to within 0km. Hmm....so you remove nearly 99% of combat found this way while travelling. Well that kinda sucks....but hey you still have your chance on the other side of the gate right? But that's not what got me. Bubbles in empire...bubbles everywhere....I guess making the game so far less realistic knowing that no TV series or anything thing in that matter in reality or fiction comes out of super faster than light speed EXACTLY on spot....not even the BORG are that good. But hey..I understand you dont' want to spend time burning to the gate in travel...so say screw them all....right? Cause that might get your hauler popped & we all know what Floozie was like when that happened.
What you didn't seem to realize is that CCP hasn't "nerfed" insta's. Then again you're probably just focusing on your problems & not seeing the bigger picture. They're there..you can make them & copy them. The only difference now is you can't copy & walk away. You want a region set? Then sit down & do the work. Need a safespot fast? No problem.
Frankly...anything that speeds up this game & makes your life more frustrating is music to my ears.
Oh yeah...as for "****ing" off the players. We've been around here long enough to know that CCP always tries to do the right thing when improving the game. Try using something credible when making a threat.
Go back to WOW if you can't handle that
Sam
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:49:00 -
[18]
 is he calling me a carebear ?
Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rells
is he calling me a carebear ?
To me the name Rells makes me think of Rens, Rens being the Carebear Capital for mission running :-)
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Wild Rho
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:56:00 -
[20]
Bad idea,
It makes shuttles, pods, frigates, inties, warp core stabbed battleships and warp core stabbed/nano'd indies untouchable.
The bubble argument is only good for people who's only idea of pvp is to sit on a gate and even then when you are actively seeking out targets it would require you to somehow know in advance where they will be to get ahead and drop a bubble.
The whole point of the 15km warp in from a game point of view is to create a distinction between fast travel setups and slow high cargo setups. It's also to provide a chance to intercept a target on either side of the gate, not the few seconds or less you would have to catch it before it aligns and warps.
As for the majority, if the majority had a real say in how the game went we'd be stuck with a space version of world of war craft.
People just don't like inconvienience becuase then they'd have to choose between what they want and what they need (more cargo over speed has always been the best example).
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.31 05:57:00 -
[21]
As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor. CCP is a business and such a big business decision is not to be made lightly. CCP has hated Insta BMs for years and if they could have just flat removed them without ruining thier business they would have.
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Rells
is he calling me a carebear ?
To me the name Rells makes me think of Rens, Rens being the Carebear Capital for mission running :-)
LOL There are FEW people in the game that have called me a carebear.
Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? |
Wild Rho
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:03:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/08/2006 06:02:55
Originally by: Rells
As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor.
That's YOUR opinion and it's nothing more than a scare tactic. There have been more than a few occasions where ccp have added new features and people cried it was going to kill eve/everyone was going to quit (default insurance, jump clones aka implant insurance, xetics little forum invasion when the war dec costs were changed so it wasn't based on corp numbers).
In every case the player base stuck with it, some will quit, others will take their place.
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:04:00 -
[23]
Rells, did you miss the big "Warp to 0km" thread just a few days ago? Its been suggested many, many times before too.
Im in favor of the suggestion, but ccp (wisely) doesnt comment on it... :)
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:13:00 -
[24]
Quote:
The whole point of the 15km warp in from a game point of view is to create a distinction between fast travel setups and slow high cargo setups. It's also to provide a chance to intercept a target on either side of the gate, not the few seconds or less you would have to catch it before it aligns and warps.
That point is consistantly bypassed by instas.
That point may be valid in discussion for removing instas. It is not valid in discussion for replacing current inefficient system of 0km warp with something that does exactly the same thing but more efficiently.
The whole idea of defending inefficient system against replacement by something more efficient is wrong, as it leads you to accept the idea that it is okay for some "lucky" people to get away while punishing the not so lucky ones. The game should be about personal skill, everyone should play by the same rules, no "instas for some, no instas or others!" bullshit
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rells
A very small percentage of the player base is in favor of it and the vast majority against it vehemently.
*snip*
Now there will be a small, very small, percent that disagree with me but who would you rather **** off? WOuld you rather have a huge majority of the player base mad at you or a few empire pirates that lack creativity, imagination and numbers.
2 wrongs dont make a right. And both of the statements above are incorrect. CCP have polled the players and instas are the number ONE issue players want fixed.
Not sure where you get your 'majority' want to keep them but if its from the responses / posts on these forums I dont think the forums are a reliable and equal representation of the desires of the entire playerbase.
Your idea as Avon stated in another thread is a direct attempt to create a new status quo which would be very hard to break once this 'majical solution' your hinting at is thought up.
Additionally important, as has been stated numerous times by players, devs and myself, is the issue of vulnerability. The mass, speed and low slot count is supposed to be a factor in a ships class during travel but at the moment is being completely bypassed by instas jumps.
It was flagged as being THE PRIMARY issue relating to instas by Oveur. Not the DB. Refocus your attention on vulnerability and leave the lag and hardware to the people who can actually do something about it and who have a clue.
Click Me
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/08/2006 06:19:38
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Additionally important, as has been stated numerous times by players, devs and myself, is the issue of vulnerability. The mass, speed and low slot count is supposed to be a factor in a ships class during travel but at the moment is being completely bypassed by instas jumps.
It was flagged as being THE PRIMARY issue relating to instas by Oveur. Not the DB. Refocus your attention on vulnerability and leave the lag and hardware to the people who can actually do something about it and who have a clue.
If they remove bookmarks just to make people slow as turtles when travelling, then I believe alot of people actually WILL quit. Im not saying its right, but people have gotten so used to instas that a replacement basicly needs to do the same thing.
Alot of people simply dont have time to spend 3 minutes per system when travelling. And equipping MWD's etc might work sometimes, but what if you cant dock and switch gear at your destination, before fighting?
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:20:00 -
[27]
Infinity Ziona's point may also be valid, but then the CCP would have to make BM copying as easy as it has previously been.. until they find a completely new solution to bms issue.
Current CCP strategy of crippling bm copying cannot be defended reasonably by popular arguements of anti-bm movement, for reason which I explained previously.
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Syris Anu
Evolutionary Pressure
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Rells
LOL There are FEW people in the game that have called me a carebear.
Yet your end-of-the-known-Eve-world obsession with non-insta freighter movement in empire is distinctly smacking of a touch of the carebearitis. I thought you were the guy that offered PvP courses? Or did ou contract the Alty-McAlty-is-a-carebear disease? Someone get this man some treatment!
For the record, I have no useful alts, industrial or otherwise. My perspective on instas and travel stands. I also think that CCP would experience no discernible decrease in the number of subscriptions if instas were removed.
I challenge you (and anyone else with them) to do us all a favor and delete your 30K+ instas right now and figure out how to move without being dependent on them. Do you really enjoy having to keep all those organized and doing the right clickety on every jump only to get ganked coming out of jump cloak after all your well laid instas? You can break free right now, you just have to adjust your fits and you strategy. You'll be much happier once you get rid of this crutch and the world will not end.
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Wild Rho
Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/08/2006 06:02:55
Originally by: Rells
As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor.
That's YOUR opinion and it's nothing more than a scare tactic. There have been more than a few occasions where ccp have added new features and people cried it was going to kill eve/everyone was going to quit (default insurance, jump clones aka implant insurance, xetics little forum invasion when the war dec costs were changed so it wasn't based on corp numbers).
In every case the player base stuck with it, some will quit, others will take their place.
Rho>Rells 1000 times over
BTW whatcha doin in a n00b corp rho?
CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.31 06:28:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 31/08/2006 06:35:09
Originally by: Magnum III
How about ask every one to stop being little babies and quit with depending on all the BM's?
But this is EVE, where players need to have their hands held, despite the fact they'll never admit it.
Some people will never be happy. You want no travel time in systems, and ask for things that make speed of ships pointless when travelling? Why not give frieghters and indies the agility of a nano'd crow and a 50km/s base speed while we're at it?
Accept that CCP never wanted 'instas' and that they will find a way to remove them and have the game mean something. Anyone who can't play without a full set of instas has no right to call themselves 'skilled'. Giving yourself 0 risk (except for bubbles) instas is not skill, it's a crutch.
Go ahead and quit, all of you, if instas are removed. Those of you who spoke about liking EVE because CCP doesn't hold your hand, you have no right to demand instas stay. You can't have it both ways boys and girls.
If you're worried about lowsec gankers, good, altho nothing is stopping CCP from giving the sentries a 249km lock range, and just making them hit in falloff at extreme range (thus forcing even a maxrange sniper to tank atleast alittle, and making them that much easier to kill if jumped).
Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus |
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