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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:48:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 31/08/2006 03:48:59 The VAST majority of BMs are instas. So let me state my points in brief. You cant kill instas without replacing them with an alternative or you will loose 2/3 of your customers and you know that, which is why you havent done anythign in 3 years. This upcomming patch is a very thinly veiled attempt to kill instas without putting in an alternative. The outcry is not suprising. A very small percentage of the player base is in favor of it and the vast majority against it vehemently. Solution is to let people warp right ot within jump range of a gate and dock range of a station (only the very new and very clueless cant do this now). This is a simple solution and requires little to no code. I personally would delete ALL of my gate to gates if this happened and I wouldnt be alone. Anyone flying for long in eve gets instas where they normally fly. I know I have personally copies all of mine dozes of times and every student in my courses gets sydicate pipes (main routes in syndicate) At any rate, lets analyze combat in eve. It happes in several instances: 1) When attempting to warp away from a gate. 2) When warping to a gate and caught by a bubble or warp disrupt probe. 3) Other tactical situations Only RARELY do people get popped in 0.0 when crawling up to a gate and mostly those people are alts anyway from my observation. Therefore there is no reason to stop us warping to the gate. Now there will be a small, very small, percent that disagree with me but who would you rather ** off? WOuld you rather have a huge majority of the player base mad at you or a few empire pirates that lack creativity, imagination and numbers. I personally dont think Jita ganking is so worth saving that we should break fundamental long running mechanics. In the future you can give more ways to stop players and so on to make the situation more interesting. Id LOVE to be left with only my tacticals and be able to delete my 31000 other BMs. Give me a chance. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
Kyguard LFC 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:50:00 - [2] Rells for the ******* win. === God is on the side with the best artillery.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:52:00 - [3] Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire... (The basic idea? Oh yea...) //Maya
Magnum III Journey On Squad	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:53:00 - [4] How about ask every one to stop being little babies and quit with depending on all the BM's?
Kyguard LFC 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:54:00 - [5] Originally by: Maya Rkell Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire... (The basic idea? Oh yea...) Maya ftw too. (sometimes ) T This will probably bring the thread off-topic, but the only issue I can see with that is multiple corps camping one gate for different corps with dictor bubbles (imagine the lag.) === God is on the side with the best artillery.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:58:00 - [6] Edited by: Rells on 31/08/2006 04:00:27 Originally by: Maya Rkell Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire... (The basic idea? Oh yea...) Faction standing and war based bubbles would be good but that requires design. Lets let them sort this as a quick fix so we dont all get hammered and then they can convert some chineese cash to standing and war warp probes. Then the backstory is that the probe scans the ships and gives them the frequency of warp field to warp out while war and or low standing get caught (depending on kind of probe) Originally by: Kyguard Originally by: Maya Rkell Rells, well, and the Empire war argument? That's why I want bubbles which only trap war enemies for Empire... (The basic idea? Oh yea...) Maya ftw too. (sometimes ) T This will probably bring the thread off-topic, but the only issue I can see with that is multiple corps camping one gate for different corps with dictor bubbles (imagine the lag.) Improved graphics engine for the win. Obviously they need a quick fix. Lets fix it like my idea rather than ** off 90% of the plazer base. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:00:00 - [7] rells ftw i have to say, hit it spot on Ore Mongers' 3rd lotto Ebil piwat - Xorus
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:00:00 - [8] Wow rells good thing you brought this into peoples attention.They might have not noticed the tons of other threads saying the same thing. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:12:00 - [9] Originally by: xeom Wow rells good thing you brought this into peoples attention.They might have not noticed the tons of other threads saying the same thing. Perhaps but less eloquently Seriously though some people on this forum have rather bad communication skills. Calling people names when you want them to listen to you is not productive. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Tarquin Tarquinius Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:26:00 - [10] My idea was to limit the number of bookmarks a player can have. Only allow them to have a few hundred. ------------------------ The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. - an Amarr Mercenary
Syris Anu Evolutionary Pressure	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:35:00 - [11] You merely propose instas by another means. Look deeper. The real problem is that combat currently happens on the wrong side of the gate because of instas. When you blockade a gate, it should be against people warping to it, not jumping through. Currently, because of intas, you have to wait on the other side of the gate and try to get the traveler coming out of jump cloak, who has no chance to respond. This is lame for everyone involved. The way to fix this is to: 1. Eliminate gate instas. BUT 2. Allow ships to jump back through the gate after 30 seconds while still in jump cloak (but still decloak automatically if they take no action for 60 seconds as normal). Now anyone with half a clue can avoid gate camps, but they cannot proceed past the gate without running or removing the blockade. Give and take. Travelers get the assurance of being able to keep their ships safe from jump cloak ambush, defenders can actually hold territory by holding the gate on the warp in side without worry of a fleet or raider using instas to go by. We all benefit from better gameplay and less lag. To throw another bone on the pile, make jump clones easier to get to cut down on travel time.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 04:42:00 - [12] This is crazy. Originally by: Syris Anu You merely propose instas by another means. No. I didnt propose doing anything to instas except the planned making them slower to copy. Allowing poeple to warp to gates directly would merely mean they arent needed anymore. AT ALL. Originally by: Syris Anu Look deeper. The real problem is that combat currently happens on the wrong side of the gate because of instas. When you blockade a gate, it should be against people warping to it, not jumping through. This is rubbish. Instas are used for multiple things including taking less than 10 hours to move a freighter 10 jumps and flying in 0.0 space (which you dont do obviously). Not having instas in high sec. Not having them in lowsec is annoying. Not having them in 0.0 is suicide. Originally by: Syris Anu Currently, because of intas, you have to wait on the other side of the gate and try to get the traveler coming out of jump cloak, who has no chance to respond. This is lame for everyone involved. The way to fix this is to: No you dont. Use a bubble. Originally by: Syris Anu 1. Eliminate gate instas. BUT And loose a huge percent of the eve playerbase to cancellations? Originally by: Syris Anu 2. Allow ships to jump back through the gate after 30 seconds while still in jump cloak (but still decloak automatically if they take no action for 60 seconds as normal). Silly, they could just keep jumping and ytou are looking at this from the point of view of a carebear. Originally by: Syris Anu Now anyone with half a clue can avoid gate camps, but they cannot proceed past the gate without running or removing the blockade. Give and take. Travelers get the assurance of being able to keep their ships safe from jump cloak ambush, defenders can actually hold territory by holding the gate on the warp in side without worry of a fleet or raider using instas to go by. We all benefit from better gameplay and less lag. To throw another bone on the pile, make jump clones easier to get to cut down on travel time. Avoiding gate camps is only a very small issue in BMs. You clearly dont have the experince to understand how big of an issue it is. It is part of the game and cant be removed. Not to mention i have a couple hundred bms that are not instas. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
McTaggart Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:05:00 - [13] Edited by: McTaggart on 31/08/2006 05:06:35 Actually, not so sure...
Syris Anu Evolutionary Pressure	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:05:00 - [14] Edited by: Syris Anu on 31/08/2006 05:09:34 Edited by: Syris Anu on 31/08/2006 05:07:26 Edited by: Syris Anu on 31/08/2006 05:05:55 Rells, your argument for instas is fast movement of freighters, though you mock a carebear perspective. You say that they are essential for movement through 0.0 space. They are not. I can move through 0.0 space at will with proper ship fitting and attention to map. I never, ever get caught at a gate camp on the warp to a gate because I scan ahead, which anyone can do regardless of skill, ship, or mods. I have exactly 0 insta gate bookmarks, I have played for years, I travel wherever I please and quickly, too. Sometimes I don't go somewhere because I know there is a camp. You have to accept that sometimes you cannot go where you want because someone is holding the territory, there is a big blob, etc. Find another route or try another time. If you are worried about people jumping back and forth every 30 seconds, let them. Who cares? What does that accomplish? How long are they going to keep it up? They are still blocked from proceeding. If you must, allow them to only do this once, after which they have to come out of jump cloak normally after they have jumped back from jump cloak. Plus, since there will be no way of getting easy insta-lock kills on things coming out of jump cloak, gate defenders will move to the other side of the gate and set up a blockade, which can be scanned, attacked, or run at player's choice and this issue will not even generally arise. Gates are meant to be system switches and terrotorial linchpins, not insta kill zones. You should be able to know what you are facing before you go to one. You should also, from a defender's perspective, be able to blockade movement along a route in low security. Your and other suggestions are not addressing the underlying problems. The problems are instas for safe travel and instas for fast travel. I have laid out how you take care of the safe travel problem. Fast travel is another problem that has nothing to do with instas. You can do it now with proper ship fits. You have to sacrfice something to move larger bulk. In Eve, that's speed. Jump clones, if available to more players, makes it possible to move your persona to where you want, up to six differnet locations. You want to be able to move your entire inventory anywhere in the galaxy at a moment's notice at a drop of hat. Tough. If that were the case, there would be no point in playing Eve as everything would be the same price everywhere and territory would be indefensible. Now, if you want to propose NPC haulers or something along those lines to take the drudgery of hauling out of the game, that's an interesting concept, but the tools are already there for fast travel and gate safety with the tweak to game mechanics I described. Also, even with current mechanics, I can move a freighter through empire without instas as fast as if it had instas. It just takes a team. I leave figuring out how to do this as an exercise for the reader.
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:12:00 - [15] 0 km warp option is the real solution right now. However, to prevent a small scale abuse, make it so the Autopilot still uses 15km warp, not 0 km warp. That way people traveling AFK wouldn't get advantage over current system. The strategy of crippling bm copying is a bad one as it works in favor of old players who already have all the bms they need. It's unfair to all new players. Many people seem to refuse the idea of 0 km warp on arguements that non-warp ship speed should matter in system travel. But that's a wrong arguement when instas are allowed to be in game. 0km warp would replace the instas, without changing balance of the game. All issues of warping right on top of your gate or station can be addressed separately and they should not depend on how that 0km warp was achieved, by means of insta or another interface option.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:17:00 - [16] One reason why I don't like 0.0 is because I'm forced to copy BM's. I have nothing against travel times and because instas are De Facto in 0.0, I have no business what-so-ever go there. And today is begining of my 3rd year in EVE. How sad that I don't have 31000+ BM's. Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must."
SamtheDog	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:28:00 - [17] Edited by: SamtheDog on 31/08/2006 05:32:07 The OP is giving a thinly veiled rant to something he doesn't like in game...& is trying to use his perceived view of public opinion against CCP. To the OP.....I say suck it up. CCP isn't nerfing bookmarks, they're not just letting people sit in stn copying thousands bookmarks for hours on end which slows things down. But you didn't want to add that did you? Perhaps it a way of getting rid of bookmark sales. Then again, large scale engagements...some turd decides to lag out the opponents by copying bookmarks! Oh noes! I can't make them crash or lag out so we can kill them easy anymore! OMG CCP is EVIL!!! I want to have my exploits! But they...we'll ignore that. So this brilliant lad suggests we all should warp to within 0km. Hmm....so you remove nearly 99% of combat found this way while travelling. Well that kinda sucks....but hey you still have your chance on the other side of the gate right? But that's not what got me. Bubbles in empire...bubbles everywhere....I guess making the game so far less realistic knowing that no TV series or anything thing in that matter in reality or fiction comes out of super faster than light speed EXACTLY on spot....not even the BORG are that good. But hey..I understand you dont' want to spend time burning to the gate in travel...so say screw them all....right? Cause that might get your hauler popped & we all know what Floozie was like when that happened. What you didn't seem to realize is that CCP hasn't "nerfed" insta's. Then again you're probably just focusing on your problems & not seeing the bigger picture. They're there..you can make them & copy them. The only difference now is you can't copy & walk away. You want a region set? Then sit down & do the work. Need a safespot fast? No problem. Frankly...anything that speeds up this game & makes your life more frustrating is music to my ears. Oh yeah...as for "****ing" off the players. We've been around here long enough to know that CCP always tries to do the right thing when improving the game. Try using something credible when making a threat. Go back to WOW if you can't handle that Sam
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:49:00 - [18] is he calling me a carebear ? Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Rells is he calling me a carebear ? To me the name Rells makes me think of Rens, Rens being the Carebear Capital for mission running :-)
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:56:00 - [20] Bad idea, It makes shuttles, pods, frigates, inties, warp core stabbed battleships and warp core stabbed/nano'd indies untouchable. The bubble argument is only good for people who's only idea of pvp is to sit on a gate and even then when you are actively seeking out targets it would require you to somehow know in advance where they will be to get ahead and drop a bubble. The whole point of the 15km warp in from a game point of view is to create a distinction between fast travel setups and slow high cargo setups. It's also to provide a chance to intercept a target on either side of the gate, not the few seconds or less you would have to catch it before it aligns and warps. As for the majority, if the majority had a real say in how the game went we'd be stuck with a space version of world of war craft. People just don't like inconvienience becuase then they'd have to choose between what they want and what they need (more cargo over speed has always been the best example). WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 05:57:00 - [21] As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor. CCP is a business and such a big business decision is not to be made lightly. CCP has hated Insta BMs for years and if they could have just flat removed them without ruining thier business they would have. Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Rells is he calling me a carebear ? To me the name Rells makes me think of Rens, Rens being the Carebear Capital for mission running :-) LOL There are FEW people in the game that have called me a carebear. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:03:00 - [22] Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/08/2006 06:02:55 Originally by: Rells As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor. That's YOUR opinion and it's nothing more than a scare tactic. There have been more than a few occasions where ccp have added new features and people cried it was going to kill eve/everyone was going to quit (default insurance, jump clones aka implant insurance, xetics little forum invasion when the war dec costs were changed so it wasn't based on corp numbers). In every case the player base stuck with it, some will quit, others will take their place. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:04:00 - [23] Rells, did you miss the big "Warp to 0km" thread just a few days ago? Its been suggested many, many times before too. Im in favor of the suggestion, but ccp (wisely) doesnt comment on it... :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:13:00 - [24] Quote: The whole point of the 15km warp in from a game point of view is to create a distinction between fast travel setups and slow high cargo setups. It's also to provide a chance to intercept a target on either side of the gate, not the few seconds or less you would have to catch it before it aligns and warps. That point is consistantly bypassed by instas. That point may be valid in discussion for removing instas. It is not valid in discussion for replacing current inefficient system of 0km warp with something that does exactly the same thing but more efficiently. The whole idea of defending inefficient system against replacement by something more efficient is wrong, as it leads you to accept the idea that it is okay for some "lucky" people to get away while punishing the not so lucky ones. The game should be about personal skill, everyone should play by the same rules, no "instas for some, no instas or others!" bullshit
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Rells A very small percentage of the player base is in favor of it and the vast majority against it vehemently. snip Now there will be a small, very small, percent that disagree with me but who would you rather **** off? WOuld you rather have a huge majority of the player base mad at you or a few empire pirates that lack creativity, imagination and numbers. 2 wrongs dont make a right. And both of the statements above are incorrect. CCP have polled the players and instas are the number ONE issue players want fixed. Not sure where you get your 'majority' want to keep them but if its from the responses / posts on these forums I dont think the forums are a reliable and equal representation of the desires of the entire playerbase. Your idea as Avon stated in another thread is a direct attempt to create a new status quo which would be very hard to break once this 'majical solution' your hinting at is thought up. Additionally important, as has been stated numerous times by players, devs and myself, is the issue of vulnerability. The mass, speed and low slot count is supposed to be a factor in a ships class during travel but at the moment is being completely bypassed by instas jumps. It was flagged as being THE PRIMARY issue relating to instas by Oveur. Not the DB. Refocus your attention on vulnerability and leave the lag and hardware to the people who can actually do something about it and who have a clue. Click Me
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:17:00 - [26] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/08/2006 06:19:38 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Additionally important, as has been stated numerous times by players, devs and myself, is the issue of vulnerability. The mass, speed and low slot count is supposed to be a factor in a ships class during travel but at the moment is being completely bypassed by instas jumps. It was flagged as being THE PRIMARY issue relating to instas by Oveur. Not the DB. Refocus your attention on vulnerability and leave the lag and hardware to the people who can actually do something about it and who have a clue. If they remove bookmarks just to make people slow as turtles when travelling, then I believe alot of people actually WILL quit. Im not saying its right, but people have gotten so used to instas that a replacement basicly needs to do the same thing. Alot of people simply dont have time to spend 3 minutes per system when travelling. And equipping MWD's etc might work sometimes, but what if you cant dock and switch gear at your destination, before fighting? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:20:00 - [27] Infinity Ziona's point may also be valid, but then the CCP would have to make BM copying as easy as it has previously been.. until they find a completely new solution to bms issue. Current CCP strategy of crippling bm copying cannot be defended reasonably by popular arguements of anti-bm movement, for reason which I explained previously.
Syris Anu Evolutionary Pressure	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Rells LOL There are FEW people in the game that have called me a carebear. Yet your end-of-the-known-Eve-world obsession with non-insta freighter movement in empire is distinctly smacking of a touch of the carebearitis. I thought you were the guy that offered PvP courses? Or did ou contract the Alty-McAlty-is-a-carebear disease? Someone get this man some treatment! For the record, I have no useful alts, industrial or otherwise. My perspective on instas and travel stands. I also think that CCP would experience no discernible decrease in the number of subscriptions if instas were removed. I challenge you (and anyone else with them) to do us all a favor and delete your 30K+ instas right now and figure out how to move without being dependent on them. Do you really enjoy having to keep all those organized and doing the right clickety on every jump only to get ganked coming out of jump cloak after all your well laid instas? You can break free right now, you just have to adjust your fits and you strategy. You'll be much happier once you get rid of this crutch and the world will not end.
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/08/2006 06:02:55 Originally by: Rells As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor. That's YOUR opinion and it's nothing more than a scare tactic. There have been more than a few occasions where ccp have added new features and people cried it was going to kill eve/everyone was going to quit (default insurance, jump clones aka implant insurance, xetics little forum invasion when the war dec costs were changed so it wasn't based on corp numbers). In every case the player base stuck with it, some will quit, others will take their place. Rho>Rells 1000 times over BTW whatcha doin in a n00b corp rho? CCP where are our t2 shield power relays?
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:28:00 - [30] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 31/08/2006 06:35:09 Originally by: Magnum III How about ask every one to stop being little babies and quit with depending on all the BM's? But this is EVE, where players need to have their hands held, despite the fact they'll never admit it. Some people will never be happy. You want no travel time in systems, and ask for things that make speed of ships pointless when travelling? Why not give frieghters and indies the agility of a nano'd crow and a 50km/s base speed while we're at it? Accept that CCP never wanted 'instas' and that they will find a way to remove them and have the game mean something. Anyone who can't play without a full set of instas has no right to call themselves 'skilled'. Giving yourself 0 risk (except for bubbles) instas is not skill, it's a crutch. Go ahead and quit, all of you, if instas are removed. Those of you who spoke about liking EVE because CCP doesn't hold your hand, you have no right to demand instas stay. You can't have it both ways boys and girls. If you're worried about lowsec gankers, good, altho nothing is stopping CCP from giving the sentries a 249km lock range, and just making them hit in falloff at extreme range (thus forcing even a maxrange sniper to tank atleast alittle, and making them that much easier to kill if jumped). Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Rells As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor. You have no proof to back this up. A few dozen people *****ing on the forums is not the majority of EVE (anymore). Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:41:00 - [32] Originally by: Syris Anu I challenge you (and anyone else with them) to do us all a favor and delete your 30K+ instas right now and figure out how to move without being dependent on them. Do you really enjoy having to keep all those organized and doing the right clickety on every jump only to get ganked coming out of jump cloak after all your well laid instas? You can break free right now, you just have to adjust your fits and you strategy. You'll be much happier once you get rid of this crutch and the world will not end. Deleting all your instas and flying in 0.0 would be suicide. Pure suicide. The only way you could even hope to have that is to have suicide interceptors to warp to and then that would put in SO MUCH downtime, wasted time and crap in the game that i would not be the only one considering leaving the game. The fact is that your solutions are indicative of pirate mentality: namely to get kills as easily and safely as you can. The fact is it is easy to stop people in 0.0 comming into a gate via warp in 0.0. VERY easy and we do it all the time. As for the idea of increasing travel time in the game 20 fold to "balance" it, that would be corporate suicide as putting that much downtime into the game would make many many people leave. CCP has hated instas for years and if they thought they could do that then they would have long ago. The fact is the game is balanced quite well. Your inability to stop people probably results from your desire to stay in empire and try to snipe people crawling up to a gate while aligned and at full speed. Or is it your jita ganking business? Either way, the only valid empire argument is the one maya said and that one is easily solvable. If you want ot stop people, you should have to be ACTIVE in doing so. I knew the opposition was vehement but I also know that CCP knows where the majority of the playerbase stands on the issue. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Syris Anu Evolutionary Pressure	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Jim McGregor Alot of people simply dont have time to spend 3 minutes per system when travelling. And equipping MWD's etc might work sometimes, but what if you cant dock and switch gear at your destination, before fighting? Why do you have to refit for fighting? You wanted fast movement, you got it. In real world combat, do you get to ride into the battle on your equine or motorized, possibly flying, steed, get off, and shout to the guys trying to kill you, "Hey, wait a minute, I gotta don my tank before we fight"? It's about the trade offs, not the play offs. And what's the hurry such that people don't have 3 minutes to go through a system (which is only true of a fat, slow ship that is meant to be... fat and slow)? Eve is big. It has to be as a non-sharded system. It also promotes regionalization and localization. Jump clones already provide instant travel anywhere in the galaxy, there's just the matter of getting your stuff setup ahead of time. You think that it would improve your trade routes if you could magically travel quickly? Well, guess what, everyone would do your trade route and it would be worthless to do. Travel takes time for a reason. Just because people have been exploting game mechanics in a certain way for years doesn't mean that: 1. It shouldn't be changed. 2. Everyone will leave if it is. Let's seek a balance where people don't get to insta anymore, but they also don't get ganked coming out of jump cloak. If hauling is so onerous, it doesn't matter if you are waiting a long time or having to sit there right clicking to warp to an insta over and over again - it's not fun. Find a way to have NPC haulers do bulk transit for a fee, or make that an actual mini-profession for players who like to haul that actually pays fair wages (unlike current player courier deals).
Kyguard LFC 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia You have no proof to back this up. A few dozen people *****ing on the forums is not the majority of EVE (anymore). I don't think Rells is basing his claim based on the number of forum whiners, but on common sense. There are a lot of players in empire / 0.0 that need these instas so that they can survive the odd gank. I would like instas removed too so that I can kill a couple more targets, but if you think about it, in the long term, it's not beneficial. I would compare it to how electricity-dependent we are in society, you can't just remove it. === God is on the side with the best artillery.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Rells As for moving frieghters and so on, your PERSONAL opinion is neither popular nor relevant. The fact that the VAST majority of the plazers of this game would quit if that was done is the only important factor. You have no proof to back this up. A few dozen people ***ing on the forums is not the majority of EVE (anymore). Proof is in the fact that it wasnt done 2 years ago as CCP would have wanted. That and the prevalence of instas, their widespread use and trading and the fact that the first thing a player needs is the instas when joining a 0.0 alliance or corp. In fact players without instas are regarded as fools. They also die a whole lot. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:45:00 - [36] As long as instas are in game, choosing not to ever use them is not "brave", it doesn't make you more "skilled" or "hardcore". It just makes you a little stupider than someone who takes full advantage of the game rules :-) I'm sorry, but any highly competetive player has to consider all the game mechanics and take full advantage of them to achieve his objectives. Even if something is considered bad taste, or an exploit, the player has to take advantage of every little quirk in the game. It is CCP's job to set the rules by which players play. It is not the responsibility of player community to make up rules of "fair play", as they have no power to police any such rules. Any limition that you impose on your playing style works against you. CCP changes the rules and the real skilled players will adapt, but one thing will never change - they will always seek to exploit game mechanics in every possible way to gain an advantage. It is a driving force that cannot be artificially hindered.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:51:00 - [37] Originally by: Syris Anu Just because people have been exploting game mechanics in a certain way for years doesn't mean that: 1. It shouldn't be changed. 2. Everyone will leave if it is. Most grown adults dont have time to spend 3 to 5 minutes per system. Not to mention that moving in 0.0 without a large fleet would become near impossible for anything bigger than a frig. I GUARANTEEE that if you warp into agony at 15km your MWD and nanos arent going to save you. We will have 5 webs on you before you can blink and you will die. This would have the effect of having a bubble on every gate in eve. That would be absolutely horid in 0.0. Essentially, you would have to move in massive fleets. And people in 0.0 arent going to wait around for a fleet to pick up their ship from empire. This would totally blast balance and mechanics out the window and the only people that would proffit would be empire pirates. It would also make 0.0 nearly uninhabitable. For the empire bound they would need 5 to 10 times longer to get anywhere and that time is just dead time where nothing is happening. That kind of thing makes people go elsewhere. Stopping people should be an ACTIVE task requiring SKILLS, not passive so pirates can shoot fish in a barrel. I know the pirate lobby is active but this one they wont win. Why? No, it has nothing to do with me. They wont win it because CCP is not stupid. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Syris Anu Evolutionary Pressure	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:57:00 - [38] Originally by: Rells The fact is that your solutions are indicative of pirate mentality: namely to get kills as easily and safely as you can... Your inability to stop people probably results from your desire to stay in empire and try to snipe people crawling up to a gate while aligned and at full speed. Or is it your jita ganking business? I think you really need to go back and think through my proposal. I could EASILY get kills by slapping some mods and tech II ammo on my battleship, sitting far from the gate, and obliterating people coming out of jump cloak before they get into warp. I don't do this because I think it is a lame tactic (sniping gate camping). I'm actually saying make that impossible by giving people the chance to jump back through the gate without exposing them to my (theoretical sniper fire), which actually takes away options for me. (I am actually an old-school soloist belt pirate when in pirating mode). What is NOT a lame tactic is sitting at a gate blockading it and engaging whatever warps in. Right now, because of instas, this is a losing strategy, so it drives everyone into the lame tactic of sniping on the other side of the gate at people coming out of jump cloak who have no chance but to issue a warp command and pray for hte best without any prior warning (except expert map skills, which are not 100% foolproof). From your other statements, do you really not understand that: 1. You can scan a gate before you warp to it. 2. You are most vulnerable when coming out of jump cloak, not warping to a gate. 3. If someone blocks your way through a low security or 0.0 system you do not have a inalienable right to proceed without removing them by force or persuasion - that they have as much 'right' to block it as you do to travel through it, a situation resolved by who can bring greater force to bear? ?
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:06:00 - [39] There's a tremendous contradiction in the naysayers here. They say that the 15km warp in and the subsequent ganking is a desirable and necessary thing in EVE. Yet, they scream and whine about how their "instas" are necessary. Soooooo in other words, anyone without "instas" must be ganked. And anyone with "instas" gets an "I win" button for escaping camps. Good plan. So glad you insta-junkies are thinking of the greater good here.
Sharcy Sonnema	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:31:00 - [40] It's so simple... *Warp-in distance = System Security rating 20.000 0.0: 0km 0.1: 2km 0.5: 10km 1.0: 20km Eliminate the possibility to create a BM within 150km of a station or gate. -- Sonnema is recruiting!**
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:43:00 - [41] I dont see the problem of ccp THe majority of Bookmarks are the same for everyone. its like fixed region BMS who are copied from one to another. instead of keeping the bm`s on the client CCP chose to keep them on the server. Ill try to explain in a diagram ( And ill try to keep it as simple as possible ) Atm it should look something like this \| CCP SERVER \| \| User \| \| User \| \| User \| \|BM region1 \| \| BM region1 \| \|BM region1 \| \|BM region1 \| \| BM Region1 \| \|BM region1 \| \|BM Region1 \| \| BM region1 \| \|BM region1 \| However theys hould try to program it in such a way \| CCP server \| \| BM region 1 \| \| User \| \| User \| \| User \| So instead of give everyone there own BM folder you have 1 folder with all the BM`s and just point out that the user has acces to those coordinates. So in that way you only have to save it just one`s. for everyone and take way less time and cpu of the server.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:45:00 - [42] CCP just needs to have the balls to : -Destroy the instas and prevent that they can be made again . Done fixed.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:04:00 - [43] Rells FTW @Syris Anu, as someone who spends the vast majority of their time in-game hauling in 0.0, I like it just as it is, ta very much. Long travel times hurt Eve Putting everyone at the mercy of anyone with a gun and a webber on every gate in their route hurts 0.0, and thus hurts Eve. @Syris again, what you call sniping I call ambushing. I was recently taken out by a pair of BSes with T2 guns who one-vollied me when I decloaked. Kudos to them, that is how you camp a gate. Or the other people who, between decloacking and warping, put >3 points of scrambling on me and emptied my cap. Again, a good camp. The only argument (being presented) against the invulnerabilty instas give, is that people want to be able to attack in a situation where you don't need good firepower and/or good tacklers to pop ships. ----------
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:12:00 - [44] Originally by: SamtheDog But they...we'll ignore that. So this brilliant lad suggests we all should warp to within 0km. Hmm....so you remove nearly 99% of combat found this way while travelling. *****s 99% of combat while travelling takes place on the jump-in side of the gate, not the warp in side. Unlessyou are in a fast figgie in which case you c Pardon me I just realised you must be talking about lowsec. Well Boo hoo, no more sniping haulers from 200km with a stabbed out megathron for the leet pirates then eh, they might have to get into belt piracy like anyone with a pair. Or learn to tank sentries, not like thats all that hard either. As for empire war targets escaping.....send a friggin inty after them to get in the tackle while your HAC''s catch up. It doesent take a rocket scientist to figure out ways to adapt. Anybody worth killing uses instas for gates already. Only noobs slowboat at wartime. I support this proposition. Originally by:** Posidrive So technically being a pirate is't quite as easy as I thought after reading this guide.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:17:00 - [45] At this time, removing instas or the ability to mass produce instas will have drastic consequences on the game population. I think Rells is right about that. The database cannot currently handle the number of BMs, and some are using this exploit in battle to lag out their opponents thus some action is needed. The limit to copying that the Devs wish to implement is not a good method. It will penalize newer players, and will overly favor pirates/brigands. Instas were not created initially as a means of escaping gate camps. They were created as an efficient means of travelling from one system to another system because at 15km to each gate it takes an inordinate amount of time to run from one system to another system. Most folks have a limited amount of play time so instas were born. The defensive nature of them came later. The primary purpose of them still is to facilitate travel. The game cannot survive without some means of faster travel because folks will become bored. One thing SOE did right in SWG is they realised that 10 minute shuttle times was to long, they first lowered them to 5 minutes and then to a minute. People value their play time. If you completely remove all instas and do not give the option such as Rells suggests and others have, then you will lose customers. You will probably lose a majority of them. Many folks have expressed concerns that Kali might be the NGE of EVE, I hope not. But one thing can kill the game faster than any other, that is the removal of this time saving device. Make Warp to 0 km a reality. It would take little coding. Then remove all bookmarks within 500km of any station or stargate. This would still leave the miners with their BMs for asteroid fields, as well as rat hunters that use them, thus not having a great effect on the game economy. This is a solution that would require minimal effort in coding, and one that would reap the best reward. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:19:00 - [46] Originally by: Sharcy It's so simple... *Warp-in distance = System Security rating 20.000** 0.0: 0km 0.1: 2km 0.5: 10km 1.0: 20km Eliminate the possibility to create a BM within 150km of a station or gate. This is not a workable solution, it fails to address teh main reason why instas exist. They exist to facilitate fast travel, not as a purely defensive maneuver. If you make it such that folks in "safe space" have to warp at 15km to 20km then the number of griefer corps that prey on them will expand. Then you will steadily see folks get fed up and quit the game. Since most people reside in Hi Sec, you can subsume that a majority would within a few months of such a change as you are proposing quit the game. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Noluck Ned Originally by: SamtheDog But they...we'll ignore that. So this brilliant lad suggests we all should warp to within 0km. Hmm....so you remove nearly 99% of combat found this way while travelling. *******s 99% of combat while travelling takes place on the jump-in side of the gate, not the warp in side. Unlessyou are in a fast figgie in which case you c Pardon me I just realised you must be talking about lowsec. Well Boo hoo, no more sniping haulers from 200km with a stabbed out megathron for the leet pirates then eh, they might have to get into belt piracy like anyone with a pair. Or learn to tank sentries, not like thats all that hard either. As for empire war targets escaping.....send a friggin inty after them to get in the tackle while your HAC''s catch up. It doesent take a rocket scientist to figure out ways to adapt. Anybody worth killing uses instas for gates already. Only noobs slowboat at wartime. I support this proposition. QFT. Combat takes place at the other side of the gate. To prevent someone from warping at 0km (equals insta nowdays) and insta jumping there're bubbles and interdictors. Removing instas alltogether without any replacement will only encourage lame gate snipers and tbh, it'll make a job of making a freighter runs, literally a job. Besides that it'll make any travel in 0.0 in anything bigger than a frig nearly impossible due to a random gank encounters. So, I'd vote for 0km warp for anyone, when dictor and bubble effects continue to work as they are working atm.
Balklanac Freezoner	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:25:00 - [48] Edited by: Balklanac on 31/08/2006 15:26:38 What happens to safe spots? edit: not that i disagree with the 0km warp in to the gate, it has merits. But there are other things instas are used for beside travelling. --------- I would love to see a bounty pilot get some friend or an alt to pod them to collect the isk if that resulted in a two week delay before their 'personality' was uploaded to a new clone.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:38:00 - [49] Meh, as long as bubbles get a drastic boost, I'm all for it. A Bubble should be buffed to not have to be in flight line, int the asame grid. It pull any target that exits warp 125 and 250 Km respectivly, from it. As for Empire, they should only ever pull war targets, much like towers can. And Sentries should not kill them ever, so they can be used freely in .4 and down.
Cosy Ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:43:00 - [50] Edited by: Cosy Ceaon on 31/08/2006 15:43:19 IMO the best way can be if u warp to a stargate get a random warp distance between 2,5 km - 15 km then will be the luck that give u that distance
Resetgun Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:48:00 - [51] Just add warp disruptor fields to all stargates and stations. Problem solved - no need change BMs, because instant BMs would be useless. Whiners and exploiters - go home to your mama. "As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire
Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Resetgun Just add warp disruptor fields to all stargates and stations. Problem solved - no need change BMs, because instant BMs would be useless. Whiners and exploiters - go home to your mama. Your "solution" solves nothing. It changes travel for the worse for the whole playerbase and makes simple travel stupidly dangerous. If this solution was viable it would have been implemented years ago but guess what? It sucks.
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:21:00 - [53] Just so we're clear on this: I disagree with everything in this thread for no apparent reason. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:27:00 - [54] Originally by: Dixon Just so we're clear on this: I disagree with everything in this thread for no apparent reason. So does that mean you disagree with your own post? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Ramjam Giles Trading Union Corp Free Space Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:38:00 - [55] I'm with Rells. Just bring in a 'Warp to 0km' option. That would make 99% of bm's useless and ppl would them delete reducing the lag. Tactical bm's would stay.
Bombasy Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:39:00 - [56] I much prefer Weirda's sexy sexy solution.
Syris Anu Evolutionary Pressure	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:48:00 - [57] Edited by: Syris Anu on 31/08/2006 16:52:46 Originally by: Crumplecorn Rells FTW @Syris Anu, as someone who spends the vast majority of their time in-game hauling in 0.0, I like it just as it is, ta very much. Long travel times hurt Eve Putting everyone at the mercy of anyone with a gun and a webber on every gate in their route hurts 0.0, and thus hurts Eve. @Syris again, what you call sniping I call ambushing. I was recently taken out by a pair of BSes with T2 guns who one-vollied me when I decloaked. Kudos to them, that is how you camp a gate. Or the other people who, between decloacking and warping, put >3 points of scrambling on me and emptied my cap. Again, a good camp. The only argument (being presented) against the invulnerabilty instas give, is that people want to be able to attack in a situation where you don't need good firepower and/or good tacklers to pop ships. Wait, you LIKE putting millions in your cargo hold, happily instaing along, then suddenly you find yourself in jump cloak surrounded by 5 insta-locking battleships? You like having absolutely no warning, no chance, and no ability to change the outcome, which is the destruction of your ship? You currently ARE at the mercy of someone with a scrambler and a gun. My proposal puts the integrity of your hull in your hands, not in the hands of random chance at what you are going to find after you jump blindly into the unknown. No offense, but I guess from the statements in this thread that many people really don't understand game mechanics and features available to them in the current build. Do you not realize there are full scanners on all your ships that can tell you if someone is camping a gate BEFORE you warp to it? Do you not realize that with the right fits and/or teamwork you can still carry cargo and move at very high speeds? Using instas and not scanning ahead is pure laziness. Edit: If my tone sounds aggrieved, I'm actually chuckling over here. This has turned into quite an amusing thread, though it has shaken my confidence in some forum warriors.
Khabok Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:50:00 - [58] Wow, what a hotly debated topic. First, to clarify, bookmarks and instas are two completely seperate things: While all instas are used via bookmarks, not all bookmarks are instas. Only those that allow you to warp within 1.5km of a gate or station are considered instas. Bookmarks are used for a variety of other reasons, as well. Safespots and loot/ammo dumps being a couple that quickly come to mind. So, the issue of removing bookmarks altogether is a moot one: Too many players would lose far too many good and viable uses of the bookmarking system to make complete removal a reality. Personally, I use the currently in-game mechanics to my advantage. At this point in the game, instas make travel faster, gatecamps practically useless, and travel through lowesec infinitely safer than it would be without them. Almost effortless, and far too easy, in my opinion. That being said. . . I would love to see instas removed from the game. All bookmarks within 150km of a gate or station completely removed. Warping in at 15km as the nearest option, as it currently is now. None of this adding a "Warp to 0km" option that some people keep mentioning. The reasons are simple: It would make the game infinitely more interesting, and far less "safe". Do I fit for cargo capacity or for speed? Do I fit for survivability, or gank? Do I stop and scan the next gate from a distance, or do I just hope that it's clear before I warp to it? Seriously: The game would take a new and exciting turn. It wouldn't be about ganking people as they loaded into the system. If you wanted to defend a gate, you could do so easily. If they want through, they need to bring more ships or bigger guns. That's how territory is supposed to work. It's supposed to be easier to keep people out than it is to get through. Defenders are supposed to have the natural advantage. In EVE, with instas, this is currently NOT the case. Instas are a serious problem. Removing all bookmarks with a 150km radius of all gates and stations is a simple and effective solution, that I feel will greatly enhance gameplay. Khabok ------------------------------------------ There are only four things in life.The first one is love: Cherish that one, and keep it safe, because the other three are fear, hatred, and sorrow.
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:52:00 - [59] If ur flying fast agile ships than having no instas is only a small annoyance, but imagine freighters or haulers... imagine having to crawl the 15km to the gate every time on a 20 or 30 jump haul... First it would destroy long range travel and people would stay in their own nick of the woods, which in turn would prolly destroy the game as a whole in the end. Lets face it, the majority of the playerbase uses instas cuz if it wasn't true then instas wouldn't be the problem. So if they want to remove gate and station instas then they do need to replace it with a 'warp to 0km' option. Oh and this doesn't mean u can remove all instas (roidfields and safespots and so on) cuz that will most likely **** of a very large group, namely the miners and missionrunners don't forget that. Banner will be updated shortly
Brooke Trout	Posted - 2006.08.31 16:59:00 - [60] The fix IMHO is very simple. Get rid of server side BMs Make them 128 bit encrypted client side files. They only need contain a few pieces of information. X, Y & Z coordinates and a system ID. Each system could cache, in the client's working set, a spherical max value, rendering any "off the grid" BM's invalid if they exceed that system's boundaries. No more lookup, easy to copy, easy to use, easy to share. That's certainly a far more robust solution than the lag inducing big brother approach in place today.
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:01:00 - [61] Threads like these make me wish for a "Dead Horses" sticky with all of the topics that have been beaten to death, resurrected, then beaten to death again in the last 3 years. This would be the top of the list. 1. Instas/Warp to 0 km 2. Get rid of the T2 lottery 3. Kill the macro miners 4. HACs are too expensive 5. Lag sucks - get more servers 6. Nerf/boost Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/Jove 7. Get rid of escrow scams 8. Bounties are useless 9. Nerf high-sec suicide ganks 10. Let me change skills out of game Any posts on these topics should be locked for indirect necromancy. I know folks mean well, and I am certainly sympathetic to both sides' concerns, but anything that can be said has been said, and we're still where we are today. So learn to live with it and just trust that CCP will get to it when they feel like it.
Syris Anu Evolutionary Pressure	Posted - 2006.08.31 17:04:00 - [62] Originally by: Khabok Very informed post. Everyone would do well to go back and read Khabok's post - he is eloquently stating the case of why no instas will improve the game. FYI - some people may have been thinking that I am referring to scan probes in terms of scanner and discounting that as beeing too onerous (which I agree with, scanner probes are currently very difficult to use, but let's see what comes in Kali before getting hot over that). I am not. You have a scanner onboard that can instantly tell you if the gate ahead is camped (on the warp in side). It's quite easy and if you don't know how to do it, you really shouldn't be in low sec, much less 0.0 as I consider it an essential survival tool. The visual space that you see around your ship and appears in overview is just a tiny microcosm of the surrounding space that your ship can see - your sensors can resolve things up to approximately 4.3 million times further out.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.08.31 18:26:00 - [63] "The OP is giving a thinly veiled rant to something he doesn't like in game...& is trying to use his perceived view of public opinion against CCP. To the OP.....I say suck it up. CCP isn't nerfing bookmarks, they're not just letting people sit in stn copying thousands bookmarks for hours on end which slows things down. But you didn't want to add that did you? Perhaps it a way of getting rid of bookmark sales. Then again, large scale engagements...some turd decides to lag out the opponents by copying bookmarks! Oh noes! I can't make them crash or lag out so we can kill them easy anymore! OMG CCP is EVIL!!! I want to have my exploits!" Don;t know why people like you just don;t get it. There is nothing for the OP to suck up, he has 31k bookmarks he already warps to 0km everywhere he goes, he is pushing to remove or limit bookmarks clearly he isn;t saying I want to have my bookmarks! PS even worse is people who claim bookmarks are somekind of game exploit lol. They are the furthest thing from a game exploit of any type. They are being used EXACTLY as designed, to allow you to warp to a preset destination, to make travel much mroe convenient. You used to be able to WARP 2.5km to a gate anyways which is why this is REALLY stupid.
Drusan	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:30:00 - [64] Edited by: Drusan on 31/08/2006 19:30:37 Is it just me or do people avoid the beleaguring obvious point when they start commenting on ship speed as a justification for insta's? I admit i'm wholeheartedly in the 'pitch them' camp, as they to me seem an abuse of a convenience mechanic (i.e. marking a place i have been to return there later) into a game altering speed advantage. Bookmarks I have little doubt were intended to be quality of life improvments to save us headaches in finding frequently travelled too places, very much like bookmarks for websites. Using them to circumvent the game balance characteristics of a given ship is tantamount to exploitive. Fast small ships advantage is... you guessed it, that they are small and fast. Those giant lumbering behemoths with massive combat input and output or cargo are, again you guessed it, intended to lumber as that is their disadvantage. Big slow ships are supposed to be slow. Kind of the point, isn't it? I agree that can feel extra tedious on these super long runs in various ways, but hey, wasn't that the point of Jump drives to span systems in a blink (perhaps freighters and transports need jump drives...)? Why do we argue that it's a good thing that we bypass the entirety of a game limit because we feel like it? Isn't it at all sensible to conclude that gate camping in part is not being aggressively redressed as an undesirable aspect of travel because we already break the inherent limiter we are supposed to be facing to keep us in check a bit, that of our ship travel speeds? I'm not for one moment going to say I'm correct in this interpretation, but it seems to me the questions should be asked more often and don't appear to be in the many threads that exist on the topic. Drusan
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:33:00 - [65] /SIGNED IN TRIPLICATE Reduce warp-travel speeds if you really want the universe to be slow, but let us warp to 0 (bubbles excluded ofc.) Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:44:00 - [66] Rells, well, I don't see that the war bubble is so complex. But yea, if it would delay the 0km fix..push it back a few weeks. We can survive with a few weeks of difficulty catching in Empire. And people calling you a carebear are...amusing. I'd call you a lot of things, but not a carebear. Syris Anu, "currently happens on the wrong side of the gate because of instas". Cite? PS, your method won't work, they'll have seen the jump flare and they can put a ceptor on the other side to catch and kill you. Your agenda is transparent, as are the rest of the [23] who want to nerf the game. Infinity Ziona, and 0km warps fix instas. You're equating "fix" to remove, and these threads clearly indicate otherwise. "mass, speed and low slot count is supposed to be a factor in a ships class during travel but at the moment is being completely bypassed by instas jumps." Absolutely and totally UNTRUE. You've heard this before, I know - and it remains true. Agility (which IS tied to opportunity cost of lowslots and mass) means that instas do NOT grossly distort travel speed ratios except for freighters. Malthros Zenobia, "Accept that CCP never wanted 'instas' and that they will find a way to remove them and have the game mean something" Three completely disconnected statements. Further, when are you quitting? Because that's rpecisely what you're doing. Your hand is the one you're asking to be held. I'm proposing an equivalent for todays situation, you're asking for the radical welfare change to your viewpoint. Nanobotter Mk2, no, they're nerfing newer pilots. It's no less than a direct attack on them. If the node is overloaded, prevent copying there entirely. Thus your complaint is gone - and your true agenda, to prevent any competition from newer players in supporting this nerf is clearly revealed. //Maya
Zirator Times of Ancar R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:51:00 - [67] I can only hope that CCP implements a true fix, at the same time of before they remove G-G bm's completely/
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:53:00 - [68] Not a great system, but tonnes better than the current one. If a good alternative can't be found (and no-one I have seen has come up with one I am totally happy with), this is well worth implementing.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:59:00 - [69] Originally by: Rells Now there will be a small, very small, percent that disagree with me but who would you rather ** off? WOuld you rather have a huge majority of the player base mad at you or a few empire pirates that lack creativity, imagination and numbers. Maybe its the huge majority of the player base who lack creativity, imagination or numbers to avoid / fight back against pirate camps? TBH, just delete instas and thats that. Theyre pointless bits of crap. Just fly carefully. I've got on total 23 instas, all but 1 are to stations, and I've only 1 ship to a pirate camp in the past 6 months. --------------------------- Originally by:** inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar the Organ Grinder and Company Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:10:00 - [70] Make it module based. Give it an extremly unpleasant penalty to fit on combat ships(do the same for wcs while you are at it). Give players 2 weeks to delete all but 100 bms then delete all but 100 bm's on all characters. done.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:12:00 - [71] Mayby, lofty. But on the balance of probabilities, the small, over-forum-reprisented and very vocal griefPKs.... are the issue, not the majority. Yes, yes, you can operate as a hunter without them at least in theory. (In practice it tends to go bad). Anything else? It's better economically to stay in lowsec. //Maya
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:33:00 - [72] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Make Warp to 0 km a reality. It would take little coding. Then remove all bookmarks within 500km of any station or stargate. This would still leave the miners with their BMs for asteroid fields, as well as rat hunters that use them, thus not having a great effect on the game economy. This is a solution that would require minimal effort in coding, and one that would reap the best reward. Id rather they not spontaneously remove them within 500km of gate or station because I have a couple hundred of near-gate bookmarks that are not instas. These are called tactical bookmarks. They comprise a vanishingly small percent of instas. However, as long as I could remake my tacticals I would live with them being blasted. -- Rells Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:35:00 - [73] Originally by: Rafein Meh, as long as bubbles get a drastic boost, I'm all for it. A Bubble should be buffed to not have to be in flight line, int the asame grid. It pull any target that exits warp 125 and 250 Km respectivly, from it. As for Empire, they should only ever pull war targets, much like towers can. And Sentries should not kill them ever, so they can be used freely in .4 and down. Bubbles are quite strong enough. They dont need to be an instakill. Warping above a bubble is a tactical trick that balances out the bubbles because it makes them possible to avoid. If your proposal were granted the only way to break a bubble camp would be a head on collision with massive force. Right now there are more subtle ways to do it. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:39:00 - [74] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Make it module based. Give it an extremly unpleasant penalty to fit on combat ships(do the same for wcs while you are at it). Give players 2 weeks to delete all but 100 bms then delete all but 100 bm's on all characters. done. Yes, done. Done in 0.0 for everyone except the big 3 alliances. //Maya
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:41:00 - [75] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Make it module based. Give it an extremly unpleasant penalty to fit on combat ships(do the same for wcs while you are at it). Give players 2 weeks to delete all but 100 bms then delete all but 100 bm's on all characters. done. Yes, done. Done in 0.0 for everyone except the big 3 alliances. Drusan, its a moot point. Instas don't grossly distory travel time ratios...except for freighters. //Maya
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:58:00 - [76] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Rells Now there will be a small, very small, percent that disagree with me but who would you rather ** off? WOuld you rather have a huge majority of the player base mad at you or a few empire pirates that lack creativity, imagination and numbers. Maybe its the huge majority of the player base who lack creativity, imagination or numbers to avoid / fight back against pirate camps? TBH, just delete instas and thats that. Theyre pointless bits of crap. Just fly carefully. I've got on total 23 instas, all but 1 are to stations, and I've only 1 ship to a pirate camp in the past 6 months. Sniping from 100km using an alt to pick up the loot while remaining aligned and stabbed is not exactly dangerous. I have lost lots of ships in the last 6 months but then I take chances, fly in 0.0 where it is dangerous and do crazy fun things. Nerfing the whole game so you can get easy snipe kills is not very intelligent for CCP who would see a rash of cancellations. If you want to stop someone warping to the gate, get a bubble and go stop them. Get an interdictor and go stop them. Nerfing travel for the 1% of the time the gate is camped or to preserve Jita suicide ganking is not worth it in my opinion. @Maya> A corpmate had a great idea ... deploable warp disruption mini-towers that can be configured for standings as well as war status and security status. That should solve your valid issue and with minimal recoding and prevent horid graphics lag from overlapping faction bubbles in empire. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 23:02:00 - [77] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Make it module based. Give it an extremly unpleasant penalty to fit on combat ships(do the same for wcs while you are at it). Give players 2 weeks to delete all but 100 bms then delete all but 100 bm's on all characters. done. Yes, done. Done in 0.0 for everyone except the big 3 alliances. Drusan, its a moot point. Instas don't grossly distory travel time ratios...except for freighters. Very true. The mass of a freighter and BS and so on affect how the ship gets into warp and that is important. It is much easier to lock down a BS than an interceptor without a bubble as it should be. What these naysayers seem to leave out Maya is that the game IS balanced for speed. Have you ever heard a freighter pilot do anything other than whine about how slow he is WITH instas? Totally removing instas would totally *** the balance in a very nasty way. The game is balanced as is and the only people suffering are those too new or too silly to use instas. Can you immagine flying 0.0 without instas? The idea that anyone could even consider that is amazing. That is what makes me wonder if most of the naysayers are empire bound. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.31 23:39:00 - [78] Like Oveur stated in his post, he doesnt really care about speed, he cares about the vulnerability afforded by instas. Its true that if instas were removed, people would have to adjust accordingly since they have seriously screwed the game up in terms of disabling normal combat. They were also responsible for the implementation of bubbles, interdictors etc which probably wouldnt have even needed to have been put into the game. Things you will need to do if instas were removed: - Protect and claim smaller areas of space - Be prepared for more combat (more wins and more losses) - Use frig scouts / covert ops insta for fleets to move fast (see you still have instas) - Accept that during war or while in low sec / 0.0 that you shouldnt be flying an unescorted hauler, BS (yes they are weak compared to a smaller faster ship when travelling) or other weak or easily kill ship. Click Me
Auldare S.A.S	Posted - 2006.08.31 23:46:00 - [79] Instas should never have gotten to stage they are in now. CCP should have nipped it in the bud when it became known to them. People have gotten used to zipping around making eve small, markets mean little etc etc. Eve is too small with instas. I could rant on and on about the loss of tactical viability of different ship classes. But to sum it up, nothing in eve should be easy. ================================================
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.01 02:44:00 - [80] Edited by: Rells on 01/09/2006 02:44:35 The history is irrelevant and Instas are balanced now. The result of removing instas without replacing them with something else would be a MASSIVE drop in subscribers as it suddenly takes you 4 hours to fly an industrial 20 jumps. You can say use scouts and covops all you want but then those pilots are massivley exposed. To move in 0.0 without instas you would need to do the following. Jump in and warp to safe spot. Send an interceptor to another sage spot short of the other gate. Then have that interceptor scan the gate and then warp to that gate. He would then crawl away from the gate being MASSIVELY exposed to instant death by anyone warping in. If he gets to the spot you would bring your whole fleet up to the gate by warping to him. Result .. 2 hours to fly 20 jumps and LOTS of cancelled accounts. In high sec instas are a convenience and needed to escape suicide ganking. In lowsec they are needed to avoid gate sniping pirates sitting at 200km stabbed and aligned (translation, unkillable). In 0.0 not having instas is just pure SUICIDE. Dont believe it? Fly through Syndicate without them and you will get an education. Even with a scout, try it. Your scout will be massively **ed for losing his inty. If you do manage to fly from Harroule to Conomette and back in prime time without instas it will take you three to four hours. Whether you like them or not it would be business SUICIDE to remove them. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
Michael McNeil	Posted - 2006.09.01 03:41:00 - [81] Removing Instas for gets would results in cancelations unless relplaced with an equavlent jump ability. as stated just before this replay. travel would be too long for freighters, and huallers. as for reality um jump gates would bring you to your location you want to go to with only one gate. so a replacement could be do away with the jump system and have a menu for gate a heading to gate b. so you choose out of the many systems in this game what gate you want to go to. then i would say you can do away with the instas. becuase it would be only 4min to move the ships to the gate. only down side is you could have massive lag, and or confuesed ppl trying to learn the new gate system. so this wouldnt work as well because you would have to do MASSIVE reengenaring of the game. so in closing i would say, the skill at maxed brings you to 10km of the gate, then the mods bring you 8km to the gate. you have the jump range at the crueently 2,500m and this leaves you with 5,500 km to kill a person in, leaves room for danger, leaves room for you to turn on a bubble, which you could turn the speed on the activation of the bubbles, and creat a new bubble that increase's ships mass by 5000% which slows them down eminslly making the 5,500km more like 15km. all of these add more needs of skills, yes i ahve them too. but it solves both issues i think if not well cant make everyone happy. truthfly i like the current system. when in a gank squade i you can kill 80-90% of what you seek with the right stratagy, and as the prey, you can advoid 10-20% of the time if you use stratagy. no system should be all incompasing.
rodgerd Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.09.01 03:47:00 - [82] Originally by: Crumplecorn Long travel times hurt Eve No, short travel times hurt Eve, because they facilitate the Yulais, the Ours, Rens, and Jitas. You will never get away from hyper-populated, bogged-down Empire systems so long as it's convenient to load up freighter alts with 0.0 loot and haul them into the market systems.
Clementina God's of Eve	Posted - 2006.09.01 03:59:00 - [83] Originally by: rodgerd Originally by: Crumplecorn Long travel times hurt Eve No, short travel times hurt Eve, because they facilitate the Yulais, the Ours, Rens, and Jitas. You will never get away from hyper-populated, bogged-down Empire systems so long as it's convenient to load up freighter alts with 0.0 loot and haul them into the market systems. No that's a myth. Hubs are created by economic activity, not instas. Level 4 agent runners ensure that Rens, Oursaulat, and Jita remain hubs. Removing instas simply means that travel will take longer from 0.0 to the hubs.
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 04:23:00 - [84] Originally by: Syris Anu Originally by: Khabok Very informed post. Everyone would do well to go back and read Khabok's post - he is eloquently stating the case of why no instas will improve the game. Nope, he most definitely fails to do that!!!!! Why? Because he COMPLETELY ignores the primary reason most people use instas, and that is to reduce travel time. The increased security is incidental to this for most people, but welcome. Also, you want to INCREASE the danger of 0.0??? At the moment, maybe 10% max. of EVE's inhabitants are in 0.0 (look at the map). Isn't it CCP's intention to get more people out there? Increasing the danger (to 'certain death' level as Khabok suggests) is not going to do that. It's just going to leave 0.0 completely in alliance hands with no possible chance of change; no PvP, no hunting intruders, no fleet battles, just endless boring mining/npc'ing/'plex running.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.01 04:41:00 - [85] Originally by: SamtheDog Hmm....so you remove nearly 99% of combat found this way while travelling. I dispute this obviously made up statistic. Anyone travelling regularly in dangerous space will obtain bookmarks. Whole region sets sell for about 20 million, which even the weakest noob can make in a month. So who is dying to all these gate camps? THe only conclusion is...noobs and morons. THe noobs should be given a bit more freedom anyway (and will likely end up dead as they continue to push their luck). The morons will continue to die anyway, through not fitting WCS and various other mistakes. So... /signed (but Rells, I haveta say, it ain't the most original idea...been at least four threads on this topic in various forums) --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.01 04:44:00 - [86] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 You used to be able to WARP 2.5km to a gate anyways which is why this is REALLY stupid. I've been playing since May 18th 2003...it has always been 15km for me. EIther you played in Beta, or you are mistaken. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Auraurious Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.01 04:48:00 - [87] I certainly do agree that instas need to be change, but one thing I find lacking in a lot of solutions is the ability to catch someone your chasing. Right now, to catch someone, you must either already be along their route, or they must be considerably slower into warp than you are. The only really viable solution for chasing anything cruiser size or smaller (bigger if nanofibers are involved) is a sensor boosted inty with a 20km scram. Even these are imo too counterable, a single stab can defeat this setup. Also with instas, it can take 10 jumps to actually catch up with what you are chasing, which I find is way to long, and makes it too easy to get away simply by changing your route or taking a small detour in a 3+ gate system. One thing I would like to see in the insta solution would be some (counterable) way of chasing that is effective without being unbalancing. One idea I had was messing around with decreasing the time it takes to enter/leave warp, thus increasing the importance of warp speed. This would however have to be heavily balanced in such a way that the person getting chased still had considerable opportunity to evade being chased. _____________________________________________
Lo3d3R Implant Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:05:00 - [88] Edited by: Lo3d3R on 01/09/2006 06:13:03 Oh what a great idea, removing insta's by giving everyone a whole free map set of insta's, lowering the jump to range wil ruin every pirates gameplay (and every other pvp-minded player for that matter), i doubt there be any left... well maybe some hardcore belt only pirates but for that part of the pirate profession you almost need to be some sort of masochist, as there are not allot of peoples in the belts. Rells you state your point like a true carebear wich is fine by me, only breaking the game by giving everyone a free bookmark set because you (or your fans ) can't pass a blockade or travel afk in your hauler is quit silly to me. Pirates are a part of the game if there is not going be room for this in the future the game will end up beeing a combination of a npc grinding factory and blobwars 'pvp' in 0.0 with a touch of empire wars, the spice is gone. (yes also for you temporary pirates that just want to shoot that hauler in 0.3 because you can and have enough sec-status anyway, you know who you are ) So in my not totally objective this would be a very bad insta fix, the word insane and gamebreaking keep coming to mind in a future where you can't chase, or catch anyone at a gate or station. Even a compromise like lowering the 'jump to' range isnt an option the 12 ~ 16 km (about) wasnt chosen because they were such pretty numbers, they did it for a reason i hope CCP remembers this themselves also, lowering it is also a bad idea... sure you could chase someone but hey not much use anymore as you jump at 2.500 meters from a gate allready !!! (make gates as stations... 200 m jumprange \0/ ftw <3) ahoy ___________________ Eating Chopped Bear:
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:09:00 - [89] The argument that less people will go to 0.0 is not entirely factual. At the moment the main place of killing is the chokepoint which is frequently bubbled so instas are already disabled in those situations. Once you get out of the chokepoints you come to the alliance space which is generally populated. Then there are the systems that nobody seems to use, many jumps away from stations but which are patrolled occasionally Because Its Easy to Travel with Instas. Take away the ability to move fast and these places are less patrolled and more available to other people. So more people would be able to go in and use them. Deep space is called deep space for a reason. And let me say this again -> YOU CHOOSE to travel to far off places, you are not forced to travel. Technically you could stay in your home system and get rich without ever making a single jump. If you want PvP then you have chokepoints, 1 or 2 jumps from Empire to PvP. Very little travelling. If you want to mine high end ores then mine the damn ores near your POS which CCP have given you to do that very thing. Want to travel fast then train for a carrier and jump drive and your set. There are solutions to every single whine about the removal of instas in the thread but your all too lazy or stupid to acknowledge them. Click Me
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:20:00 - [90] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/09/2006 06:21:50 Originally by: Infinity Ziona And let me say this again -> YOU CHOOSE to travel to far off places, you are not forced to travel. Technically you could stay in your home system and get rich without ever making a single jump. If you want PvP then you have chokepoints, 1 or 2 jumps from Empire to PvP. Very little travelling. If you want to mine high end ores then mine the damn ores near your POS which CCP have given you to do that very thing. Want to travel fast then train for a carrier and jump drive and your set. There are solutions to every single whine about the removal of instas in the thread but your all too lazy or stupid to acknowledge them. This just made me laugh, since it means that only the elite will be able to do this. The average player (which in CCP's own words is 7 months old when he leaves EVE), will never do any of this. These are the majority of people, casual players, bringing in the money to make the game. Shut them out, and no EVE... For this game to continue to exist, CCP has to cater to everyone, but MOSTLY the casual player, not the elite. Simple financial reality.
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:23:00 - [91] So, what solutions are there? 1. Remove instas, no replacements. 2. Remove instas, replace with 0km warp. 3. Remove instas, replace with 5km warp. 4. Remove instas, have skill reduce distance. 5. Remove instas, have equipment reduce distance. 6. Syris suggestion above. 7. others... Pro's (all have the pro of removing insta load on DB) and Con's: 1. No Pro's. Con: Long travel time, 0.0/low-sec lockdown. WORST solution ever! 2. Pro: Keep reduced travel time/vulnerability reduction. Con: Empire wars more difficult due to no bubbles. 3. Pro: Keep most of reduced travel time. Con: 0.0/low-sec lockdown for larger (slow) ships. 4-5. As 2-3, except just another time-sink. Everyone would train it. 2nd worst solution ever. 6. Doesn't work as you say. You jump in, sees gate-camp, jumps out again. Camp will have seen this, so the interceptors jump through and kill you on the other side. 7. I have seen no other, easily implementable solutions. So, what to do? I'm firmly of the opinion that 0km warp is the solution that is best. In effect, it is just the situation we have today, except fairer to new players, and without the DB problems.
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:23:00 - [92] Instas serve two different reasons, travel time reduction, and vulnerability reduction. Most posts in this thread only concern themselves with one of these reasons, which is normally the reason the poster finds most useful. Both reasons however, will have to be adressed by the devs for any replacement solution. Travel Time Reduction: This is the one reason for using instas that the insta opponents never take into consideration, but is probably the most used purpose of the two (90% of EVE lives in empire. Go figure). Why? It's actually very simple: People play a game to have FUN, not to be BORED!!! Watching your screen waiting for your BS/hauler to crawl to a gate is boring. Most players probably don't have endless hours each day to play, but at most 1-2 hours. They want those hours to be fun, not boring. Instas provide them with quality gaming time, thus they use them and continue to play EVE. If forced to do boring crawls, a number (in my estimate a high number) would not play this game. The time savings are (add acceleration time to this): Very fast ships (>1000 m/s): <15s saved per jump Fast ships (500-1000 m/s): 15-30s saved per jump Medium fast ships (250-500 m/s): 30-60s saved per jump Slow ships (100-250 m/s): 60-150s saved per jump Very slow ships (<100 m/s): >150s saved per jump In the start of a players life, you're generally using medium fast to fast ships, but as soon as you get into a BS or hauler, you're into the slow lane. Example: Take a level 4 mission runner in empire. He flies a Raven, going at 141 m/s. Including accel time, this give approx 2 minutes to go 15km. Missions are up to 3 jumps away, meaning for those he would spend 12 minutes crawling, and all for a mission lasting maybe 30-45 minutes. In other terms, he would spend 1/4 of his playtime being bored. Would he stay in EVE? Maybe, maybe not. Vulnerability Reduction: This is the second reasons why people use instas. It reduces the chance of you getting killed while travelling in 0.0 or low-sec. Note that it doesn't eliminate the chance. There's still a fair chance of getting killed if you're in anything but a (very) fast frigate (insta-locking snipers will take care of that, or a roaming fast gang will catch you when you jump through a gate), and bubbles and 'dictors will make sure that it'll still be dangerous. If instas were to be removed without putting some kind of replacement in place, what would happen? Simple, there'd be a complete 0.0 and low-sec LOCKDOWN (something like the EC-P8R lockdown for the whole PvP area). Nobody would be able to travel there unless they were in a stronger group than any of the groups camping their route. Lone travel would be totally out. This result would be guaranteed by the warp line layout (choke-points), and the by now finely honed gate-ganking skills of alliances. For the opponents of instas, who in my estimate are mostly opposing because they want easier kills, the outcome would be not entirely what they want. They would now catch 90% of everyone weaker coming to the gate they camp.... That is 90% of the 0 ships going that way, because nobody would come their way unless they were stronger. Bravo, 0.0 and low-sec is converted to blob-fest! Now, from everything that has been said over the last couple of days/weeks, I think everyone is aware that the load on the database from instas have to go. That means that insta's as we know them today have to go too, and this without putting in something which'll cause similar load. If it is to be done in a reasonable timeframe (unless CCP is already working on the solution), then it also have to be something which is not too difficult to implement. (Continued)
Estelle Matsuko Caldari The Beiatch Corp Inc	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:54:00 - [93] Edited by: Estelle Matsuko on 01/09/2006 06:55:55 Delete all BM¦s not currently installed. Make them Non copyable Limit each pilot to a total of 50 bm¦s You want BM¦s, make your own. I do, and I¦m new(ish) If people are going to leave due to BM¦s being modified..let them leave. Theres enough who wont. at the same time as you carry out the above ccp, ALSO fix warp bubbles that drag you in from outside of thier range.
Resetgun Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition	Posted - 2006.09.01 06:59:00 - [94] Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Resetgun Just add warp disruptor fields to all stargates and stations. Problem solved - no need change BMs, because instant BMs would be useless. Whiners and exploiters - go home to your mama. Your "solution" solves nothing. It changes travel for the worse for the whole playerbase and makes simple travel stupidly dangerous. If this solution was viable it would have been implemented years ago but guess what? It sucks. Here are some news for you: SPACE IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE! "As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.01 07:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Resetgun Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Resetgun Just add warp disruptor fields to all stargates and stations. Problem solved - no need change BMs, because instant BMs would be useless. Whiners and exploiters - go home to your mama. Your "solution" solves nothing. It changes travel for the worse for the whole playerbase and makes simple travel stupidly dangerous. If this solution was viable it would have been implemented years ago but guess what? It sucks. Here are some news for you: SPACE IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE! Nor it is meant to be impossible for new players to survive in lowsec. There are so many people here who are simply not grasping the idea that making gatees warpable at 0 km changes almost nothing. If anything its more fair to newer players. As stated ad nauseum, the only people negatively affected are incompetent empire pirates. Any decent pirate corp in empire will be unaffected by this, except that they will no longer be able to kill the stupid people anymore. Oh and to whoever it was that called Rells a "Typical Carebear"... whats the weather like under that rock? Originally by: Posidrive So technically being a pirate is't quite as easy as I thought after reading this guide.
Dukath	Posted - 2006.09.01 07:59:00 - [96] Originally by: Kerfira This just made me laugh, since it means that only the elite will be able to do this. The average player (which in CCP's own words is 7 months old when he leaves EVE), will never do any of this. These are the majority of people, casual players, bringing in the money to make the game. Shut them out, and no EVE... For this game to continue to exist, CCP has to cater to everyone, but MOSTLY the casual player, not the elite. Simple financial reality. And this is exactly the reason why eve-online is sliding faster and faster towards cancellation. While on the short time catering to carebears seems a good idea financially it does spell certain doom for the game overall. At first the game was harsh and it was good. It was unique and people played it exactly because it was so harsh. There were also less pvp oriented people who lived in safer space and did their thing. However over time they got more and more things handed to them. Some features were abused and not corrected quickly (bookmarks leading to easy instajumps and safespots), others were simply added: highways, high sec high profit missions, implants, warp cores from active mid to low fitting inactive lowslot, insurance going from 1 week to 3 months, default insurance, concord, sentry guns,invulnerable NPC stations in deep 0.0, ... Although highways were limited it is still far from the original vastness of space. Some of these were introduced as a temporary measure but now they can't be removed anymore due to all the whining from carebears. Now since the game has become so much easier more and more 'carebears' (people who want the game to hold their hand without having to think for themselves, i don't consider traders or miners carebears per se) have started playing them game. While YOU got what you wanted this time, a new batch of carebears joining now will get what THEY want next time. And the game will be dumbed down even more to get even more carebears. If CCP bows down to the pressure and leaves warp to 0 in the game without any drawback then they have taken yet another step in caving in to the carebears. Now one critical aspect of a carebear is that they expect the game to hold their hand, as i said. The game must provide content since they are incapable of doing so themselves. In the end eve-online might have more players in short term, but the flow will be much worse. They'll join, play a few months and leave again. Player content will vanish and eve online will be another WoW in space. THAT is what you are promoting when you want instajumps to stay. And eve without player content will not survive long. In the end its CCPs decision though. Will they sell out and go for quick money or stick to their vision. I hope they stick to their vision but people like you are definitely pushing them to the sell out. PS: 'you' in this post refers to both you as the guy quoted as all the other carebears pushing for easy mode wow in space.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.01 09:26:00 - [97] Originally by: Khabok I would love to see instas removed from the game. All bookmarks within 150km of a gate or station completely removed. Warping in at 15km as the nearest option, as it currently is now. None of this adding a "Warp to 0km" option that some people keep mentioning. The reasons are simple: It would make the game infinitely more interesting, and far less "safe". Less safe yes. Getting killed by anyone in a bigger ship = interesting? No. Originally by: Khabok Do I fit for cargo capacity or for speed? Do I fit for survivability, or gank? Do I stop and scan the next gate from a distance, or do I just hope that it's clear before I warp to it? These are already considerations when travelling in 0.0 with instas. Without it would become 'Do I bring a fleet with me or just commit suicide?'. Originally by: Khabox Seriously: The game would take a new and exciting turn. It wouldn't be about ganking people as they loaded into the system. If you wanted to defend a gate, you could do so easily. If they want through, they need to bring more ships or bigger guns. Fun! Excitement! Getting killed unless you bring a bigger blob! \o/ ----------
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2006.09.01 09:37:00 - [98] I think I read in another topic someone suggesting an easy fix. When jumping manually you have the 0km option (in jump/dock range). But when travelling with autopilot you land 15km away. Simple sollution? I like the whole idea anyways :D Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 09:42:00 - [99] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/09/2006 09:45:07 Originally by: Dukath PS: 'you' in this post refers to both you as the guy quoted as all the other carebears pushing for easy mode wow in space. I'm most definitely not a CB myself, having both 0.0, low-sec and high-sec characters :-) I was commenting purely on Ziona's suggestions for alternatives, which all WAS elite solutions. For your other arguments.... It is true that in the start EVE was more harsh and less forgiving. It was also a very smaller AND DIFFERENT playerbase. It was also more boring (wasn't there but have heard a lot from friends who were).... Today, the game is a different place. It has safe(ish) areas, non-safe areas. It caters to play-styles for the casual gamer, as well as the hardcore gamer (and imho does this in a pretty well-balanced way, and this includes instas as part of the gameplay). Players can be safe(ish), players can have fleet battles, players can be pirates with a fair degree of success, etc. All is pretty balanced (not perfect for everyone, but decently balanced). Now, if you look on the map (number of players in system), what do you see? You see a BIGGGGGGG blob in safe empire space (maybe 90% of the players). My interpretation of this is that most players today ARE casual gamers (running missions, chatting, mining, producing, whatever they like), while the minority is hardcore. Like it or not, that's how it is. Now if you make the game (a lot) more hardcore, which removing the travel benefits from instas most certainly is, a lot of the casual gamers might leave for another game that entertains them more. That's just the way it is. A casual gamer wants to be entertained, not bored in the few hours he has to play. Now, who pays for CCP's 100+ employees? The 10% hardcore, or the 90% carebears? Which group can CCP LEAST (from a financial point of view) risk to alienate? I think the answer is pretty obvious. I honestly believe the CCP dev's want to make this the greatest space game they can (and imho they're succeeding), but after all is said and done, CCP is a commercial company which is there to make money. If they don't, they can't make the game at all. This is what I'm refering to as 'Simple Financial Reality'. It hasn't got anything to do with my preference or personal opinion. My personal opinion however, is that I don't believe a Warp-to-0km will make the game any different from what it is today (everyone but newbies has instas anyway), except that it will make it a bit easier for newbies, and it will ease the DB load. So, as a short term replacement for instas, it is an eminently suitable solution. In the long term, whether something else is to be introduced, that's CCP's choice. In short: I see the Warp-to-0km as a good solution to the DB problems caused by instas. I don't see it as a solve-all-problems-everyone-has-with-traveling-and-pvp thing.
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.01 12:36:00 - [100] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 01/09/2006 06:21:50 Originally by: Infinity Ziona And let me say this again -> YOU CHOOSE to travel to far off places, you are not forced to travel. Technically you could stay in your home system and get rich without ever making a single jump. If you want PvP then you have chokepoints, 1 or 2 jumps from Empire to PvP. Very little travelling. If you want to mine high end ores then mine the damn ores near your POS which CCP have given you to do that very thing. Want to travel fast then train for a carrier and jump drive and your set. There are solutions to every single whine about the removal of instas in the thread but your all too lazy or stupid to acknowledge them. This just made me laugh, since it means that only the elite will be able to do this. The average player (which in CCP's own words is 7 months old when he leaves EVE), will never do any of this. These are the majority of people, casual players, bringing in the money to make the game. Shut them out, and no EVE... For this game to continue to exist, CCP has to cater to everyone, but MOSTLY the casual player, not the elite. Simple financial reality. I think your pretty misinformed judging by your post. You dont have to be uber to stay in your home system and get rich - its easy. You dont need to be uber to join a corp that has a POS in 0.0 or low security. You dont have to be uber to PvP at a chokepoint, once you train up scrambler and frigate skills you can participate and be a valued member of a pvp squad. Hell you dont even need to be uber to fly a carrier. I saw a 9 month old the other day in a carrier, he even had another alt in a second carrier, pirating in a .4. 9 months old and two carriers. The issue here is we could get rid of bookmarks, and people could do a little bit of work and still carry on as usual, but people dont want that, they want it easy, they want it fast, they want it safe. Bad attitude to have in a game, hope you dont have that in RL but I bet you do. Gonna be disappointed I think. Click Me
ElCoCo Gallente KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.09.01 13:01:00 - [101] Originally by: Crumplecorn Long travel times hurt Eve Exactly. Being "safe" is nothing compared to the complete waste of playtime moving around will be. The transitions are already tedious enough as it is.
Resetgun Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition	Posted - 2006.09.01 13:26:00 - [102] Originally by: Noluck Ned Originally by: Resetgun Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Resetgun Just add warp disruptor fields to all stargates and stations. Problem solved - no need change BMs, because instant BMs would be useless. Whiners and exploiters - go home to your mama. Your "solution" solves nothing. It changes travel for the worse for the whole playerbase and makes simple travel stupidly dangerous. If this solution was viable it would have been implemented years ago but guess what? It sucks. Here are some news for you: SPACE IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE! Nor it is meant to be impossible for new players to survive in lowsec. It is not impossible to survive in lowsec. You need to a) co-operate with other players b) think first your route in lowsec (aka. using your brains) Originally by: Noluck Ned There are so many people here who are simply not grasping the idea that making gatees warpable at 0 km changes almost nothing. If anything its more fair to newer players. As stated ad nauseum, the only people negatively affected are incompetent empire pirates. Any decent pirate corp in empire will be unaffected by this, except that they will no longer be able to kill the stupid people anymore. Oh and to whoever it was that called Rells a "Typical Carebear"... whats the weather like under that rock? I think that it is freaking big step towards carebear rainbow land. "As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 13:52:00 - [103] You are completely missing the point in my post(s). The fact is that most of EVE's players base might NOT be the type of players who play this way! Judging from the blobs on the map in empire, most players are casual players, which are NOT the type you describe (Note: I'm definitely not a casual player myself, but I can figure myself in other peoples situation). Originally by: Infinity Ziona You dont have to be uber to stay in your home system and get rich - its easy. That's not true. The only way to do that is to do (remote) trading. Boring as hell. To have any kind of fun for most people means at least doing missions, which involves travel. Add to that the fact that there really is no (small) areas in EVE that has enough content to keep people entertained for long. Remember, people has to feel entertained, not bored, to continue playing and PAYING. Originally by: Infinity Ziona You dont need to be uber to join a corp that has a POS in 0.0 or low security. No, but most corp does not accept casual players. If you can only play an hour here and there, you won't be joining a 0.0 corp. Originally by: Infinity Ziona You dont have to be uber to PvP at a chokepoint, once you train up scrambler and frigate skills you can participate and be a valued member of a pvp squad. Actually, you do, or at least you need to be a non-casual player. See previous point. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Hell you dont even need to be uber to fly a carrier. I saw a 9 month old the other day in a carrier, he even had another alt in a second carrier, pirating in a .4. 9 months old and two carriers. According to CCP, the average leaving age of an EVE player is 7 months. I would then definitely count 9 months as elite. Originally by: Infinity Ziona The issue here is we could get rid of bookmarks, and people could do a little bit of work and still carry on as usual, but people dont want that, they want it easy, they want it fast, they want it safe. That is correct, but your problem is that you want everyone to play EVE your way, the hardcore way. As a matter of fact, I want to play hardcore too. However, my guess is that we're in the minority on that. If we make the game so hardcore the casual players leave, they take their money with them! I don't think it too unlikely that if instas are removed without some kind of replacement, 20% of the playerbase would leave. That's 20% of CCP's income, gone! There's no way a board of any company would condone that! Originally by: Infinity Ziona Bad attitude to have in a game, hope you dont have that in RL but I bet you do. Gonna be disappointed I think. You can leave the personal insults out of here, please. I'm trying to argue for a solution that might not be perfect, but in essence is just a replacement for todays system (all experienced players has instas), except a bit more fair to newbies (who doesn't), and which removed the DB problems. You want to redo CURRENT game mechanics to create an elitist game, telling anyone who doesn't want to play like you do to basically take a hike. Which one is most sad???
Khabok Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.01 14:08:00 - [104] I think the concept that the majority of you fail to grasp is this: Instas make it easy to avoid combat. In my opinion, instas make it too easy to avoid combat. If you wish to avoid combat, stay in your NPC corps, stay in High Sec Empire space, and run your lvl 3 missions in your Ravens. What will happen if instas are removed is this: Combat pilots will be forced to choose between mobility and firepower. MUCH like real life military forces are forced to do. Military commanders in EVE will be faced with decisions such as: Send 6 cruisers that might win but can make it there in 10 mins, or send 6 battleships that will win but won't be there for 20 mins. Send a rapid response force of frigates and fast cruisers, or send a battlefleet of battlecruisers and battleships...a decisive force, but perhaps too late to save the mining fleet? Personally, I feel that EVE should be large. It should feel large, it should seem like staying local, getting to know the people in your system, getting to know who doesn't belong here... that's important. A sense of community is very important to the longevity of any game. It keeps people playing long after their interest has peaked and started to wane. It keeps people logging on long, just to be social. Instas make the game feel smaller. Going across the entire galaxy should be a feat that few people have accomplished, not something that anyone with a set of 31,000+ store-bought BMs can do in a matter of minutes. As for the rest of us, we wish to make the game larger, not smaller. Travel is SUPPOSED to take a long time. The reason that there's only a couple of major economic hubs in the game is because of instas. Like someone mentioned earlier, it's far too easy to take all your 0.0 loot to Jita in a freighter with an alt. 45 mins with instas, round trip, from almost anywhere. See, what this does is kill anything local. There's not nearly as strong a local economy as their could be in the game, simply because hubs like Jita are too easy to get to. If instas were removed, you'd start to see places like Jita toned down a notch. They'd still be hubs, but only for major high-end items, and the smaller local hubs in each region would improve dramatically. Why spend 4 hours traveling to Jita when I can spend 30 mins traveling to the local hub, and since the local economy will be much improved, I'll get almost as much as I would have there? This game is supposed to be huge. It's supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be social. Instas kill ALL of that. Khabok --------------------------------------------------- There are only four things in life.The first one is Love: Cherish that one, and keep it safe, for the other three are Fear, Hatred, and Sorrow.
Bael'Zhaeron Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.01 14:18:00 - [105] Edited by: Bael''Zhaeron on 01/09/2006 14:18:53 I like What Serj said. It's simple and VERY effective, does not stagger combat since every serious pvp'er almost have the region(s) they are fighting in. So what's the diffrence nothing, you can still target people when they are trying to warp away from the gate. Which i think is were most of the killing happens. Im all for jump to 0km from gate if you do it manually and 15km from it if you autopilot jump. Edit: spellcheck
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 14:47:00 - [106] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/09/2006 14:48:15 Originally by: Khabok ...stuff I think you're living in a dream-world on this. What you describe is true for the hardcore gamer, but NOT for the casual gamer. The casual gamer (I'm not one...) has an hour here or there, sometimes 2-3 hours in the weekend to play. He does that to get away from his daily life, and be entertained by the game. He likes space games, so he found EVE. He likes missions, trading, npc'ing, chatting, building etc., but is not too keen on 'that PvP' stuff. As I said before: Look - On - The - Map! What do you see, a BIG blob where (safe) empire is, and a big black mass (with single small green spots) where low-sec and 0.0 is. Doesn't that indicate rather strongly that the majority of EVE's players are of the casual, or at least of the non-PvP kind? To me it does. While the concept of a 'Big EVE' is nice in theory, it doesn't work. The reason for this is that no (small) area of EVE holds enough content to be entertaining enough that you don't need to travel. So to keep playing (and most importantly for CCP paying), you have to travel. Travel in EVE without instas is probably the most boring part of any game I've ever seen! The casual gamer who plays this game in 'easy' mode wants to be entertained, not to be bored. Some of them (maybe many) will leave if so. If EVE has maybe 80-90% casual players (I base that estimate purely on the blob size in empire on the map since we don't have any other data), and 1/4 of those decide to end their subscription, that's 20+% of CCP's income that's gone. Now, CCP is in this business to make money. That's their only real objective. They also make the best MMO space-game there is (imho), but this is a MEANS to that objective, not an objective in itself. I'm pretty sure some (maybe most) of the dev's would love just to remove instas without any replacement. However, if they went to the management of CCP (and the bean-counters) and said 'Hey, we have this great idea to make this game REALLY good. Should we do it? And oh, by the way, we might loose 20+% of our customers doing so.' do you know what would happen? I do! They'd be told to go play an aprils fool joke on someone else (if on that specific date). On any other date, they'd either be told that they were mad and sent away to get some schooling in business realities, or if persisting, they'd be without a job. THIS is most likely the reason that instas haven't been removed, and also why they never will be without something similar being put in place.
Auldare S.A.S	Posted - 2006.09.01 15:15:00 - [107] Edited by: Auldare on 01/09/2006 15:16:49 People travel the distance they are prepared to. What I mean is usually if it takes longer than 30mins to get somewhere most will not bother. I always hear the downside of removing instas that travelling 20jumps in a hauler (or similar slow ship) would take too long and that we play the game to have fun and not to slowly travel everywhere. OK in saying all that I'll post a little summary of a theoretical eve that would take place with instas removed; General traveling to different bases of operations; A fast frigate with a MWD can travel roughly the same number of jumps per time as an insta jumping battleship. People would generally have to set up supplies of ships and modules at all their respective bases of operations. You wont be able to take one ship all round eve anymore. To me this makes sense and adds a little bit of colour to eve, instead of one supplier for your equipment you now would need two suppliers if you, for example, have two bases of operations. 0.0 and the amount of systems an alliance control; The main reason alliances can control such a large area is because they can and need to due to instas. a battleship fleet coming to attack them using instas can reach their pos quickly if the border is only 3 jumps away making it difficult to muster responce in such a short period of time. Having 10-15jumps from border to main alliance area help's with defense. This leaves a lot of wasted systems which is basically no mans land. With no instas there will be no need for such large buffer zones and more alliances/corps could have their own territory than is currently possible. Slow speed haulers/frieghters; This is the crunch no-one wants to fly slow ass ships with no instas for anything more than 5 jumps in an operation that is organised that day. Logistics should be preplanned and well organised, Frieghters should be used for moving an alliance's or large corp's assets to a new base of operations, with that preplanning must come into it. The moving of large volumes of items currently is way too easy. Market hubs; people do clump together that is true, but with longer travel times more hubs will appear due to the 'people travel the distance they are prepared to' OK thats the end of the theorectical part here is some things i do know about travelling without instas. Eve is still easy to get around when using a frigate, I have at times set autopilot waypoints to cover all empire regions to check for prices of items (this was before the trade skills so that everything showed up if someone selected set to region sell orders) 40 jumps was nothing if it meant i could save 20-25% on a particular item. a ships speed should mean more, why do you think minmatar battleships are faster than other battleships? minmatar are the hit and run guerillas of eve. They should have that tactical advantage brought back. My main gripe about instas is that it caters to the getting the most from a minimal amount of effort. ================================================
Khabok Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.01 15:32:00 - [108] "And oh, by the way, we might loose 20+% of our customers doing so." Anyone can pull statistics out of their ass. You're being sensationalistic rather than realistic. "Oh noes! Everybuddi gonna quits!" The amount of people that are going to quit over a change like this are most likely similar to the amount of people that are going to quit when factional warfare is introduced. Should we just never change the game, at any point, for any reason, because people might quit? Well, I've got news for you... that'll cause people to quit, too. What to do?!?! <bites nails> Well, we leave it in to CCPs hands, and hope they continue to balance and alter the game to fit into their vision of how their online universe's fate should unfold. Khabok --------------------------------- There are only four things in life.The first one is Love: Cherish that one, and keep it safe, for the other three are Fear, Hatred, and Sorrow.
dobeyxxl Caldari United Nations Star Fleet The Imperial Order	Posted - 2006.09.01 15:37:00 - [109] Their should be skill books for jumping. The higher the skill the closer to the the gate you could jump. Auto pilot should still be set at 15 km though.
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.09.01 15:40:00 - [110] Originally by: Khabok "And oh, by the way, we might loose 20+% of our customers doing so." Anyone can pull statistics out of their ass. You're being sensationalistic rather than realistic. "Oh noes! Everybuddi gonna quits!" The amount of people that are going to quit over a change like this are most likely similar to the amount of people that are going to quit when factional warfare is introduced. Should we just never change the game, at any point, for any reason, because people might quit? Well, I've got news for you... that'll cause people to quit, too. What to do?!?! <bites nails> Well, we leave it in to CCPs hands, and hope they continue to balance and alter the game to fit into their vision of how their online universe's fate should unfold. Khabok --------------------------------- It's not a statistic, it is my estimate of what'll happen based on what (limited) information I have of the EVE playerbase. I never claim it as being correct, or even close to correct, since I simply don't have the data to support that. It IS my best guess though!!! If CCP is not worried about something like that, why haven't they removed instas a long time ago. We all know they don't like them.... I'm taking the data available, and draw my conclusions from them in the way that I best see as fitting the data. You just take your arguments out of your *** to suit your opinion (sorry, but you started the impoliteness of mentioning certain bodyparts). I do agree with you on one thing though. CCP will do what they decide is best, according to their vision of EVE..... While ensuring that financial realities are obeyed...
Auldare S.A.S	Posted - 2006.09.01 15:42:00 - [111] travelling gate to gate should be kept to the 15km. But i do see a reasoning of allowing slower ships to travel from one region to another quickly, maybe a jumpgate system that is linked to nextdoor regions where the charge is per kg of mass of ship wishing to use the empire service. Anything smaller than a cruiser/hauler cannot use it due to causing too long of a queue or some other rp reason. This will quicken travel times and keep the vulnerability of normal gate to gate traveling ================================================
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:15:00 - [112] Originally by: dobeyxxl Their should be skill books for jumping. The higher the skill the closer to the the gate you could jump. Auto pilot should still be set at 15 km though. There is NO point in putting in a skill that EVERYONE will train to level 5. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
GrendalX Minmatar Clan LoKi Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:52:00 - [113] 0km warp is the only option (or warp to 2500km) My 14 points to happiness for ALL players 1.People already have 0km warp through BMs 2.Most (if not all) sensible players have a regional set for where they live (u know they do - and so do you) 3.Majority new players WANT them to speed up travel. 4.Majority industrials NEED them to speed up travel. 5.Massive amount of BMs cause severe load on servers 6.ALL agree that lag is a problem. 7.ALL agree that BMs are the main cause. 8.CCP removes BMs for the necessity of travel and introduces 0km warp 9.Everyone deletes thier regional BMs (No longer needed) 10.New players no longer crave them 11.Older players no longer need them 12.No-one copies them 13.Lag decreases phenominaly 14.END of ARGUMENT and EVERYONE is happy And dont go telling me that it will destroy PVP because I have still yet to see a valid point as to how. As most hardened PVPers have instas for the region they are in anyway. In fact - in my opinion - it will attract alot more players to enter 0.0. Feeling a little braver and a little more curious - in the knowledge that maybe, just maybe, they will get away. But you still aint getting AWAY from that gate camp - even if you manage to get through it from the other direction. :)
Spang	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:56:00 - [114] Edited by: Spang on 04/09/2006 15:58:07 Warp to 0 KM option is needed. There is no other way to replace the BM problem and still allow people to have BM safe spots etc. However I would say that the autopilot should default jump to 15km (for some small computer accuracy problem or somthing or such like). This would make afk travelling accross the universe slower and dangerous, but if you are on the ball and manually navigating you can warp to 0km and thus travel faster. I have seen people suggest client side bookmarks etc, even with encryption people will crak the format (thats a fact of life). But we are just gonna have to wait and see what CCP have in store for the bookmark issue. Thier silence on the subject at the moment says to me they are doing some heavy brainstorming trying to come up with THE bookmark solution.
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:58:00 - [115] TWD basically said the same no? anyway i like the idea, i see one problem. Currently to get past a bubble camp in a slow ship u need to have an insta to the gate from a different direction than that which is being bubbled. With this change you will be able to go to any planet/belt offline to the bubble and then warp to 0km. Is this a good thing? maybe. I haven't heard it addressed so far is all, so would like to hear people's thoughts (those that can put forth logical arguments for/against that is). Maybe it's better if camping is a little harder?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:00:00 - [116] Originally by: GrendalX But you still aint getting AWAY from that gate camp - even if you manage to get through it from the other direction. :) QFT. Don't be telling me I can't comment on gatecamping techniques because I'm not a gatecamper. I comment from the OTHER perspective...VICTIM! ALL the effective gate camps are on the "jump in" side of the gate. I've been got by quite a few. Those who can't figure out that PVP will continue quite happily with a "warp to 0km" option should consider that it continues quite hapily today where a large portion of the population already has the boomarks. The only people without them are REAL noobs...less than a month old I would say. And if you get off on killing them, well, giving them the free "warp to 0km" option is going to be like Christmas in the candy store...for YOU, not for them. They'll wander into 0.0 with no preparation and not even the time spent having to save up to buy their first bookmarks. But, they'll LEARN. And that's what EVE is all about. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
GrendalX Minmatar Clan LoKi Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:08:00 - [117] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: GrendalX But you still aint getting AWAY from that gate camp - even if you manage to get through it from the other direction. :) QFT. Don't be telling me I can't comment on gatecamping techniques because I'm not a gatecamper. I comment from the OTHER perspective...VICTIM! ALL the effective gate camps are on the "jump in" side of the gate. I've been got by quite a few. Those who can't figure out that PVP will continue quite happily with a "warp to 0km" option should consider that it continues quite hapily today where a large portion of the population already has the boomarks. The only people without them are REAL noobs...less than a month old I would say. And if you get off on killing them, well, giving them the free "warp to 0km" option is going to be like Christmas in the candy store...for YOU, not for them. They'll wander into 0.0 with no preparation and not even the time spent having to save up to buy their first bookmarks. But, they'll LEARN. And that's what EVE is all about. At last - Someone who actually gets the points ive been posting
Andicuri Vas Gallente Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:57:00 - [118] Originally by: Khabok I think the concept that the majority of you fail to grasp is this: Instas make it easy to avoid combat. In my opinion, instas make it too easy to avoid combat. If you wish to avoid combat, stay in your NPC corps, stay in High Sec Empire space, and run your lvl 3 missions in your Ravens. What will happen if instas are removed is this: Combat pilots will be forced to choose between mobility and firepower. MUCH like real life military forces are forced to do. Military commanders in EVE will be faced with decisions such as: Send 6 cruisers that might win but can make it there in 10 mins, or send 6 battleships that will win but won't be there for 20 mins. Send a rapid response force of frigates and fast cruisers, or send a battlefleet of battlecruisers and battleships...a decisive force, but perhaps too late to save the mining fleet? Personally, I feel that EVE should be large. It should feel large, it should seem like staying local, getting to know the people in your system, getting to know who doesn't belong here... that's important. A sense of community is very important to the longevity of any game. It keeps people playing long after their interest has peaked and started to wane. It keeps people logging on long, just to be social. Instas make the game feel smaller. Going across the entire galaxy should be a feat that few people have accomplished, not something that anyone with a set of 31,000+ store-bought BMs can do in a matter of minutes. As for the rest of us, we wish to make the game larger, not smaller. Travel is SUPPOSED to take a long time. The reason that there's only a couple of major economic hubs in the game is because of instas. Like someone mentioned earlier, it's far too easy to take all your 0.0 loot to Jita in a freighter with an alt. 45 mins with instas, round trip, from almost anywhere. See, what this does is kill anything local. There's not nearly as strong a local economy as their could be in the game, simply because hubs like Jita are too easy to get to. If instas were removed, you'd start to see places like Jita toned down a notch. They'd still be hubs, but only for major high-end items, and the smaller local hubs in each region would improve dramatically. Why spend 4 hours traveling to Jita when I can spend 30 mins traveling to the local hub, and since the local economy will be much improved, I'll get almost as much as I would have there? This game is supposed to be huge. It's supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be social. Instas kill ALL of that. Khabok --------------------------------------------------- QFT. There is absolutely zero incentive ( Or dis-incentive as the case may be ) for individuals, corps and alliances, empire or otherwise, to stay put and build markets and infrastructure. In spite of the addition of "Exodus", T2, POS, Outposts etc., Jita is still the center of the EVE Universe in terms of market activity. This, IMO, is a bigger drag on organization and ambition than 10,000 empire gate gankers. Colonization and the dispersment of resources brings more room and purposeful activity to all ( Builders and Destroyers), without having to fly to the other side of the universe to get some action........or to fit a ship. We wouldn't need Factional Warfare, if the four corners of the universe were properly populated and active. Well said Khabok. A V Your sig is too large, please read the forum rules before reposting - Tirg
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.09.06 22:31:00 - [119] Originally by: Magnum III How about ask every one to stop being little babies and quit with depending on all the BM's? If you see any sign of that having worked for the past 3 years, let us know. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.06 22:33:00 - [120] Originally by: Noluck Ned There are so many people here who are simply not grasping the idea that making gatees warpable at 0 km changes almost nothing. Yep. Changes nothing at all. Thanks for re-iterating. People dont fail to grasp it though. If you killed instas with 0km warp distance two things owuld vanish: 1) Suicide ganking with a raven in jita. Now you would need a tackler to grab them on gate exit and that is gonna be a problem. 2) Low sec sniping of uninformed and unaware newer players in lowsec. These pirates currently snipe from 200km using stabs and alts in npc corps to pick up the loot. Wouldnt work if people could warp to the gate. Originally by: Noluck Ned If anything its more fair to newer players. Agreed. They wouldnt be at a disadvantage like they are now. Originally by: Noluck Ned As stated ad nauseum, the only people negatively affected are incompetent empire pirates. Any decent pirate corp in empire will be unaffected by this, except that they will no longer be able to kill the stupid people anymore. There is one other group affected and that is the empire war people sitting on gates blockading but that is easily resolved in the long run with a variant of a deployable warp scrambling tower that can be put on gates and configured to scramble based on war flag. However, no one other than the aforementioned pirates would be affected. The problem is those pirates scream and whine the loudest of all. They are a powerful lobby to overcome. Originally by: Noluck Ned Oh and to whoever it was that called Rells a "Typical Carebear"... whats the weather like under that rock? Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.09.06 22:40:00 - [121] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 06/09/2006 22:42:36 Originally by: Drusan I admit i'm wholeheartedly in the 'pitch them' camp, as they to me seem an abuse of a convenience mechanic (i.e. marking a place i have been to return there later) into a game altering speed advantage. CCP meant them to be a speed advantage. Check this. Originally by: Player Guide Setting Bookmarks This is what separates the advanced miners from the novices. A novice miner will bookmark the position of a good asteroid, and when returning later will spend time ap proaching it from 15km away, where his or her warp cuts out. An advanced miner will bookmark a position 15km beyond the asteroid in a line from the station that they are based out of, and thus when warping to '15km to bookmark' will appear right on top of the chosen asteroid and be able to mine immediately. ò In order to set your bookmarks, first set a bookmark on an asteroid that is roughly in the position that you wish to mine from. Ensure that you don't have any big asteroids between it and the station that you're working out of, since it may interfere with your incoming path. ò Warp out to the station, and back to within 15km of the bookmark. Set your camera behind your ship on the way in; it may be easier this way. Now double click your speed control (setting you to max velocity), and continue for 30km. Stop your ship and add a bookmark. Label it something sensible - like including a short identifier for the system, the belt, and the number of interesting asteroids in close proximity to the warp in point. ò For the first few, you'll want to test them by warping back to the station, then back to the bookmark to check that they are ok. Once you've done half a dozen then you'll be confident with this process. ò You may also wish to set a bookmark 8km beyond the station in a line from the belt. This will allow you to warp to a point where you can dock immediately instead of having to ap proach the docking perimeter. It is not strictly necessary, very useful. ò Another quick note here: when belts are in a similar direction from the station, a single station bookmark can work for more than one belt. Using them to save travel time is using them as they were intended to be used. End. Of. Debate. Unless you want to argue that miners are the only ones intended to use them this way. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.06 22:50:00 - [122] Originally by: Guillame Herschel CCP meant them to be a speed advantage. Check this. Lol that is humorous. I never knew they had it in the player guide. Try this link for a more comprehensive guide. http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2 Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
BoinaAzul	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:07:00 - [123] Originally by: Sharcy It's so simple... *Warp-in distance = System Security rating 20.000** 0.0: 0km 0.1: 2km 0.5: 10km 1.0: 20km Eliminate the possibility to create a BM within 150km of a station or gate. I LIKE IT! SHARCY FOR PRESIDENT!
TheKiller8 Caldari S.A.S	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:17:00 - [124] TK's Quickfix for the Billion Bookmark Problem 1) Completely and utterly nerf the crap out of bookmark copying 2) Move all gates 1au to the right 3) Laugh CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:21:00 - [125] Originally by: TheKiller8 TK's Quickfix for the Billion Bookmark Problem 1) Completely and utterly nerf the crap out of bookmark copying 2) Move all gates 1au to the right 3) Laugh 4) file for bankruptcy. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:23:00 - [126] Originally by: BoinaAzul Originally by: Sharcy It's so simple... *Warp-in distance = System Security rating 20.000 0.0: 0km 0.1: 2km 0.5: 10km 1.0: 20km Eliminate the possibility to create a BM within 150km of a station or gate. I LIKE IT! SHARCY FOR PRESIDENT! for one, that is a very carebearish thing to say. I hate to tell you this but I have a positive sec status and I dont think anyone who has seen me in game would call me a carebear. For two, some of the best pilots I know and some of the most lethal ones are neutral sec status and they would still blow you sky high in Syndicate. You would be quoted as saying "what happened??" There are a lot of really GOOD pvp pilots out there (im not jsut talking about agony .. contraband, Xtreem, Kyguard and others come to mind) and none of them are pirates. In 0.0 the rules are different. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?**
eveplayer11	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:47:00 - [127] anyone thought of how mutch building own warp gates would fix this? havent they spoken about new pos stuff? pos to pos warp gate or something, cant remember.. that would fix it, and it would also mean more hunting and moving around for corps/alliances mixing up the map a bit. destroy their warp gate and they need to take the long way hehe and for the rest not in corps/alliances should consider joining one, and even if its small it can join a bigger alliance to get "up there" and working. eve has a huge amount of player control and thats mostly why i play it, and i think the control should stay with the players. if it all turns out to be one giant blob camp some alliances should clear it up. all wars eventualy ends, and new ones are made. when players get sick of camps they will do something about it, the tools are in the game but can players stay away from the killboards? in EVE players have control, killboards make eve be all about 1 thing but tbh eve is more then killmails.. i hope Kali has the fix. im against instas and i hate gatecamps when it happens to me but tbh there would be less gatecamping if instas didnt exist(except the "main gates").. you cant get a new ship just like that, you cant warp around the map just like that without help from carriers/motherships or a nearby station/pos etc.. carriers and other capital ships will be so mutch more needed for clonevat bays and refitting etc.. dunno about titans but they will probably change a few things too ;) not to mention all other things the Devs might have in store for us.. i dont care for corp/alliance pvp very mutch, its all ranged blobb warfare or all about numbers, only pvp i liked have been 1o1 fights against my own type of ships or similar ship size(battleships), and its very rare to find. without instas i think my gameplay would greatly improve, while others might decrease.. but there should be aid like these warp gates things, and this game is more and should be more then just killboards and bookmarks. think future and not the moment, eve has always been evolving and its the players that have done the most effort. i dont want players from other games crying on the forum to make things change, and the devs should not listnen to them. the focus should be the future as its always been. but things need to change to make the future better, in that sence its fine to remove/add or change things. its done all the time, only problem is that instas have become sutch a needed resource to make warfare and pirate/camp whatever. that shouldnt have happened and i blame CCP for not fixing it sooner but they might not have been thinking about it at the time(beer is bad mkey).. anyway im all for it the devs will give us the tools to come by this in my words called "exploit" , either player built warp gates, skills or something else, i just hope its not another setup ruining module and empire needs to shrink tbh.. mm kali.. exciting times these are! spelling ftl..
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 02:25:00 - [128] I dont agree with anything you say really. There is a lot of tactics and strategy to warfare in eve and if you havent experineced it that is your fault not eves. Oh, and please post with your main. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
eveplayer11	Posted - 2006.09.07 04:00:00 - [129] perhaps its my english.. to not agree that most pirates and gatecampers are out for killmails is denial, i cant see what else in my post was wrong would you like to point it out? its a pvp game and killboards are what most seem to glare at. pvp in eve is not all about combat either i posted my thoughts and i thought people were forgetting that new things are comming.. they want instant fixes and cant wait for content to become aviable that might be meant to fix it. post with main.. why?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 06:59:00 - [130] Originally by: eveplayer11 perhaps its my english.. to not agree that most pirates and gatecampers are out for killmails is denial, i cant see what else in my post was wrong would you like to point it out? its a pvp game and killboards are what most seem to glare at. pvp in eve is not all about combat either i posted my thoughts and i thought people were forgetting that new things are comming.. they want instant fixes and cant wait for content to become aviable that might be meant to fix it. post with main.. why? You have been living in a cave? Well... welcome back. CCP has SAID that instas are a big issue with cluster performance. As for PvP, you sound like a non-pvper and so you arent really informed enough to comment on it. Most pvpers in 0.0 do it for the FUN. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Dwight Hammerhead KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:33:00 - [131] WTF folks Instas are killing the server, the game asit is atm is on the edge of beiing unplayable. Every1 that has to pvp has instas. Everey1 else in his right mind has them too. Not every ship can be fitted to travel fast without gimping it. Yes, insta jumps to gates DO ** the whole initial concept of the game where larger ships travel slower to gates and take more time to get somewhere. And it has been that way since the ppl started using BMs. Introducing warp to jump range will change nothing in the current balance - ppl that have instas loose nothing, they still do the same insta jumps. Ppl that dont have BMs actually get a boost (since those are new players in the world of EVE that can only be a good thing). Low sec gate snipers get ** a bit. Pll that copy and sell BMs get **** (who cares). Everything in 0.0 stays the same. The game is fixed. How hard can it be really!? The idea of specific bubbles to catch war target in empire is kinda silly. Most war targets with a common sense use BMs in empire to jump ot top of gates even now. I cantrly see how an insta warp feature will change that in a drastic way. Get instalock inties and get on the other side of gate. Less whining, more game fixing. _____________________________________________ To bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig
DaveJ777	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:54:00 - [132] Don't change the minimum warp distance. It is fine as it is. Then it would be far too easy to get past anti-insta warp bubbles. The true fix would be to rewrite the way bookmarks are stored/copied. 1000 BMs should copy in 5 seconds (especially on a RamSan), not an hour. ___________________________________________ I win eve! EVE server status:
Xeliya	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:21:00 - [133] Edited by: Xeliya on 07/09/2006 08:22:46 Edited by: Xeliya on 07/09/2006 08:21:17 IMO to solve the BM issue is to do this; 1) Add a MANUAL Warp to 0km 2) Make Corp/Alliance BM's that have group access and can't be copied. 3) Delete the current bookmarks. (Yes I know safe spots, etc will be gone but is it that hard to make them again and with corp/alliance BM's it will be even easier.) Now you hear the argument of PVP will be ruined? Please fill me in . . . - Your not gonna camp a gate that can be scanned if you can camp the jump in gate as suprise is the best way to win a fight. - Snipers won't get as many newbie kills, but common all these kills do is kill the game for new people. Alot of time a loss for a new person drive them bankrupt and they say screw it. Oh one more thing, MORE PEOPLE WOULD GOTO INSECURE SPACE THUS MORE PVP. Why? Because they feel that they are safer with insta jump/dock. If I didn't have instas I can tell you I wouldn't last much longer in eve, because of a few simple points. - They allow me to get around alot faster, and sorry I don't play a game to watch my battleship fly 15km for 2 min for 30 jumps. I takes about 1 hour to fly 30 jumps on auto pilot. 15-30min with instas, I donno about you but I have a life. - They offer protection from ganking n00bs that sit 150km+ from the gate who fit 8WCS so you donÆt have to fight if I want to fight you, yet you tell me I shouldn't be so cowardly using instas, please when you want to fight I'll fight, and you ship will burn nicely to a flash of blue. Sorry if I come off ranty but some of you need you head smacked a few times.
Dwight Hammerhead KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:42:00 - [134] / signed _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig
Darviaari	Posted - 2006.09.07 09:00:00 - [135] I think that CCP has already few solutions and now there is the big flame between developes (similar to the forum flames). But why not to write these ideas and make oficial voting in the game? If there will be enough responses, they can easylly choose the solution.
Mongrove Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 09:03:00 - [136] /signed 0km warp FTW. The fact is travel time is toooooo long.
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.07 09:05:00 - [137] BMs (and instas) are in to stay... you can't sell a system to users that are using it for years and suddenly pull the plug on it. At least without a solid replacement. - "But it was in the player guide..." - "Yea but we had to nerf that out too..." - "... oh... aw well....... screw you then... need to feed the baby..." (Hey you never know) FACT REMINDER BMs (and Instas) are a Game design problem... not a GAMEPLAY problem. Some wise sorry-a$$ bored pilot of the Eve universe found out long ago that you can minimize travel time by saving the coordinates of a position in a specific way. I say make a statue of him. Some sorry-a$$ pirates are not happy about it... create yourself a sect or do like the first one did... invent or find your own gameplay solution in-game with the tools you have. (that is an... opinion ? bof...) ------------------------ The design problem can have various fixes... (and I admit I'm surprise it was not yet fixed but... not so much either being a programmer myself... I know the drill) One solution I personnaly like is to make the BMs client-side AND server-side. Woohoo I already see the hackers paranoid smacktalking it. Problem is mostly lag BMs create. Well, screw the lag and make them local. The eve client loads the 31000 BMs of the player in no time. NOW... A little change to the design is that a genuine copy must be on the server. but that will be checked later. When someone jump into a system, his/her "People And Places" loads his/her.... (dammit, I'll use the his word) his "People and Places" loads his booomarks. No server lag since they are local. And if a player has 31000Bms to load and it's getting longer and longer to load... well... his problem. Then, he suddenly feel the urge to warp to another gate because he knows that when he'll get on the other side... he'll be safe to go to the loo. So he click: "Warp to Loo at 15km" The client sends one request to server calling the server-side copy of the loo bm and the client (or the server, more process needed but less hackable) checks if the BM is genuine. If it is... warp to the loo. If it is not... do in your pod. That way, you prevent the possible BM hacking and it will ALWAYS less hard on the server to do one request for 1 Bm and check if it is genuine... Than to load FROM the server the 31000 BMs of the OP... The big load is client-side, the server will only be there to verify the authenticity or on the BM creation part (The server creates the BM and send the copy to the client - not the other way around). As for the rest... linkage Have fun ! ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
Rinaw	Posted - 2006.09.07 09:12:00 - [138] Hmm, i dont know if my idea would help the server cos it implies some data saving too but here it goes. Theres been some proposals about "learning" a route by passing this route several times, my idea its near this one: To be able to warp to 0 km, we will need to "learn" the gate position, how? With an skill and time, lets say it "navigation"(i know that skill allready exist, just think about a diferent name), ie: Do u want a 0 km warp point to the #gate# in #system# ? ok: 1- Right click on the gate and "learn gate position" 2- "Navigation" at lvl1 -> 10 minutes, navigation lvl2 -> 9 minutes.... 3- After timer, u have a 0 km warp point to that gate. -If u want your Bms, make them, NO BM copying (less lag!!). Thats false, u would be able to copy your SS, Cans, Tactical Bms, but b4 that all the bms within 100km of a gate will be removed AND u wont be able to make a Bm as close as 115km of a gate (neither to a can inside this 115 km gate bubble) -If u want Bm's on hostile systems, risk it. -Sov systems should impli automatic 0 km warp to gates. -Time sink? u prefer copying bms 5 at a time? and this is much more fun!!, u will get shot!! I hope it can be a good start.
Felicia Stone Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.07 09:53:00 - [139] /me Throws in her 2 isk.... 1)insta BM's need to go (there is no argument to this) 2)Warp to 0... If you have to slow boat to a gate, people will leave (i'm not going to make up a percentage but I will point you to the Eve forums on MMORPG.com, the most common rant being that travelling anywhere takes to long without instas) 3)Travellers still need to be vulnerable... On the jumpin side this is not a problem, a fast locking ship or a bubble will catch most opponents. On the warp in side there needs to be better mechanisms for disrupting travel. Bubbles can work nicely but have several flaws (especially dictor bubbles) and cannot be used in empire (0.1+). 4)Just my opinion here.... It would be nice to see sovereignty having an effect on this (i.e. if you're not on the good side of the 'owner' of the space then you can't warp to 0km) Closing: Snipers will lose the easy targets that they crave (on the warp in side)... They're probably getting nerfed anyway in terms of range and sensor boosting so instas will be the least of their worries. Solid mechanisms need to be devised to stop travel on the warpin side (including in empire), said mechanisms cannot be I-win buttons and must be counterable to the wise pod pilot. Warp to 0 should be implemented. I'm glad I don't work for CCP and don't have to make this change
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:49:00 - [140] You clearly are not experienced enough in eve to make an informed post on the topic. In the future you might want to pass up the reply button until you understand the dynamics. Originally by: DaveJ777 Don't change the minimum warp distance. It is fine as it is. Then it would be far too easy to get past anti-insta warp bubbles. You dont understand how bubbles work. Instas dont let you get through warp bubbles, nor does warping to any distance at the gate. Bubbles catch you if 1) they are on the same grid as your exit point and 2) your flight path passes through with the bubble. Originally by: DaveJ777 The true fix would be to rewrite the way bookmarks are stored/copied. 1000 BMs should copy in 5 seconds (especially on a RamSan), not an hour. You obviously dont understand the source of the problem .Instas represent MILLIONS of entries in the database and lag the servers something horid. Not just copying but also sorting at jump time and so on. They cant be client side or numerous game hacks could be used. They must be server side for dozens of reasons. Finally the contention here is that the need for instajump BMs and Instadock BMs is totally pointless. The removal of them and creating 0km warp distance preserves the status quo functionally in the game for the most part and solves the server issue. It nerfs 200km sniping pirates preying on noobs and Juta style suicide ganking. Other than that it changes nothing. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:55:00 - [141] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim One solution I personnaly like is to make the BMs client-side AND server-side. Not possible. OWuld be massively exploitable. Originally by: DeTox MinRohim The big load is client-side, the server will only be there to verify the authenticity or on the BM creation part (The server creates the BM and send the copy to the client - not the other way around). To authenticate the BM, the server would need to store as much data as it does now and you are in the same boat. Warping at 0km removes the NEED for instajump bms. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:56:00 - [142] Originally by: Xeliya 3) Delete the current bookmarks. (Yes I know safe spots, etc will be gone but is it that hard to make them again and with corp/alliance BM's it will be even easier.) Cant delete them all. Otherwise people would loose safe spots where they have gear and so on. All within 150km of a gate or station would be reasonable though and that would nuke the vast majority of them. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
tookar Amarr Krookid	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:15:00 - [143] Where is this assumption that 70% of the playerbase would leave if bm were removed coming from?? Have you done some sort of secret in-depth survey that we dont know about? Give freighters and some indys 5km gate warp ins and explain it due to them having better guidance computers for trading or something and force all combat ships to have no instas within 150 of gates or stations . Combat ships fight ! If you and your buddies cant bust through a gate camp into an area then maybe you shouldnt be there anyway . Nerf the 2 inty impossible to catch gankers in 0.0 homesystems ftw!
Xeliya	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:56:00 - [144] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Xeliya 3) Delete the current bookmarks. (Yes I know safe spots, etc will be gone but is it that hard to make them again and with corp/alliance BM's it will be even easier.) Cant delete them all. Otherwise people would loose safe spots where they have gear and so on. All within 150km of a gate or station would be reasonable though and that would nuke the vast majority of them. You can find the cargo containers with scanners/probes. The reason I said drop them all is to do with the BM ID's and to save time as setting the conditions for anything around gates and stations would take days if not weeks and maybe even months to do. And if there were corp/alliance bm's once you found the safe spot with containers at everyone would have it . . .
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:50:00 - [145] Originally by: tookar Where is this assumption that 70% of the playerbase would leave if bm were removed coming from?? Have you done some sort of secret in-depth survey that we dont know about? Three years playing the game over 2 main characters. Further supported by the fact that CCP has always hated instas and never done anything aobut it. If they werent worried about people quitting they would have done it long ago. Originally by: tookar Give freighters and some indys 5km gate warp ins and explain it due to them having better guidance computers for trading or something and force all combat ships to have no instas within 150 of gates or stations . Combat ships fight ! If you and your buddies cant bust through a gate camp into an area then maybe you shouldnt be there anyway . Nerf the 2 inty impossible to catch gankers in 0.0 homesystems ftw! Standard empire dweller thought process but extremely flawed in so many ways that it bobbles the mind to consider it. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Eralus	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:05:00 - [146] Originally by: Rells This would totally blast balance and mechanics out the window and the only people that would proffit would be empire pirates. It would also make 0.0 nearly uninhabitable. See, that CAN NOT BE TRUE! SOMEBODY has to be inhabitting 0.0, otherwise there wouldn't be anyone to kill you. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 04:45:00 - [147] Originally by: Eralus Originally by: Rells This would totally blast balance and mechanics out the window and the only people that would proffit would be empire pirates. It would also make 0.0 nearly uninhabitable. See, that CAN NOT BE TRUE! SOMEBODY has to be inhabitting 0.0, otherwise there wouldn't be anyone to kill you. Inhabiting means livign there. If this went through there would be huge fleets roaming around wasting anyone trying to live there. The only way to avoid this would be to create a bigger fleet. There would be no ability anymore to move in 0.0 without a FLEET to escort. But then all the people that actually live in0.0 understand this. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.08 10:38:00 - [148] Originally by: Rells Originally by: DeTox MinRohim The big load is client-side, the server will only be there to verify the authenticity or on the BM creation part (The server creates the BM and send the copy to the client - not the other way around). To authenticate the BM, the server would need to store as much data as it does now and you are in the same boat. Warping at 0km removes the NEED for instajump bms. As you put it for another poster and although I would not want to offend you, you don't seem to have much more clue on some part of the concept. The server is already storing the data and can handle it. The proof being that although having problems doing so at the moment, it IS handling it. Being a MySQL DBA myself and having a few table with a few million lines, I kind of have a clue of this: Loading one line in this table will always be faster than loading 1000 lines and so on. (if the table is rightly indexed of course) Faster sending the data back anyway as there is less data to send back. Take example in Jita: 14 stations - 8 gates = (for the worst: Stations, Stations2Gates, G2G) = 182. (For those who are wondering: (8x7)+(14x8)+14) You come into the system via the New Caldari jump gate. The server must do a WHERE Jita and sends back to your client all the lines corresponding to you People and places to green color all your BMs that are in Jita...... THAT is a real problem. Having this particular check client-side makes the server completly free of that. The server sits there waiting so no process hoag when the 10000 people/hour/jumps in the system. The server is also free not only from loading the concerned BMs but also sending you the information when you enter the system. Less lag as less packets sended. Reminder : For less hacking paranoia, the BMs client side doesn't need the store the coordinates... only the BM name, id, and system/constellation/region IDs (or names - The note can stay server-side as you only see it if you edit the BM). When you click "Warp to X"... you send the same information to server to load that ONE particular line... etc... In conclusion, the server will always be less process hoaged by checking the authenticity of ONE BM you click and sending the warp command than sending the warp command and ALSO sending your greens wich it does for every systems you enter in... and for every people entering the system. ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:01:00 - [149] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 08/09/2006 11:02:18 Small note to say that of course, a little DB clean-up wouldn't be a bad thing. Personnaly, I would delete from the DB all BMs linked to cancelled accounts. It is kind of an exploit in my opinion that someone can cancel his account, come back 8 months later and have all his things back. Assets and skilling ?... why not. BMs and settings ? Drop them. Imagine the Weight Watchers effect on the BM table. (A note on the "cancel your account" page could be added that all BMs and X and Y will be remove if you go on). ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
Cookie Snakeoil Industries Ltd.	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:20:00 - [150] What about just deleting all insta-BM's since it really doesnt make sense, that 100k players have the insta for e.g. a gate in Jita. Of course there should be some kind of replacement for the instas, and my idea for that would be something involving the atm broken map feature 'Systems I've visited' ... ... like, your 'warp-to-gate' accuracy increases the more often you use that gate (or to make it easier to calc, just the system) .. and decreases when you haven't visited that system for a while.
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:28:00 - [151] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 08/09/2006 11:30:43 Originally by: Cookie ... like, your 'warp-to-gate' accuracy increases the more often you use that gate (or to make it easier to calc, just the system) .. and decreases when you haven't visited that system for a while. No chance to ever see this in my opinion. Uncodable... in some way. It would kind of be like having a specific skill that can go up and down..... and for every system of the Eveverse. Imagine the nuts warping in and out to have a 0m accuracy on a particular gate... ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
Cookie Snakeoil Industries Ltd.	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:36:00 - [152] nah, shouldn't be very much work. Just get this 'Systems i've visited' to work like it should, set filter for like .. last 14 days or so, 15km minus #of visits = warp distance to gate.
Spanker	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:45:00 - [153] Edited by: Spanker on 08/09/2006 11:45:44 Haven't read the entire thread, nor am I going to. Too long. But. Say you remove instas and put in a warp to 0m feature on gates. That would mean everyone always warps to 0m. That, in turn, would mean that all gatecamps would use bubbles. That would mean everyone would die at a gatecamp since there's no getting away from it. And people would complain even more than they do now - Shpank
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:49:00 - [154] Originally by: Cookie nah, shouldn't be very much work. Just get this 'Systems i've visited' to work like it should, set filter for like .. last 14 days or so, 15km minus #of visits = warp distance to gate. You probably don't see it as "too much work"... the devs might have a different opinion. ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:52:00 - [155] Originally by: Spanker And people would complain even more than they do now One of the best reason to find a way to manage the BMs efficiently instead of changing the gameplay mechanics too much. ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
Semkhet The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:00:00 - [156] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Originally by: Rells Originally by: DeTox MinRohim The big load is client-side, the server will only be there to verify the authenticity or on the BM creation part (The server creates the BM and send the copy to the client - not the other way around). To authenticate the BM, the server would need to store as much data as it does now and you are in the same boat. Warping at 0km removes the NEED for instajump bms. As you put it for another poster and although I would not want to offend you, you don't seem to have much more clue on some part of the concept. The server is already storing the data and can handle it. The proof being that although having problems doing so at the moment, it IS handling it. Being a MySQL DBA myself and having a few table with a few million lines, I kind of have a clue of this: Loading one line in this table will always be faster than loading 1000 lines and so on. (if the table is rightly indexed of course) Faster sending the data back anyway as there is less data to send back. Take example in Jita: 14 stations - 8 gates = (for the worst: Stations, Stations2Gates, G2G) = 182. (For those who are wondering: (8x7)+(14x8)+14) You come into the system via the New Caldari jump gate. The server must do a WHERE Jita and sends back to your client all the lines corresponding to you People and places to green color all your BMs that are in Jita...... THAT is a real problem. Having this particular check client-side makes the server completly free of that. The server sits there waiting so no process hoag when the 10000 people/hour/jumps in the system. The server is also free not only from loading the concerned BMs but also sending you the information when you enter the system. Less lag as less packets sended. Reminder : For less hacking paranoia, the BMs client side doesn't need the store the coordinates... only the BM name, id, and system/constellation/region IDs (or names - The note can stay server-side as you only see it if you edit the BM). When you click "Warp to X"... you send the same information to server to load that ONE particular line... etc... In conclusion, the server will always be less process hoaged by checking the authenticity of ONE BM you click and sending the warp command than sending the warp command and ALSO sending your greens wich it does for every systems you enter in... and for every people entering the system. You are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, the posters who enjoy a professional background in MySQL DB design/programmin/management and are fond of the intricacies of data flows and communication protocols are a minority. Focusing on a pure technical perspective (thereof making abstraction of the intended game design), the problem of instas is conceptual and suffers a fundamental flaw: despite being perfectly viable and reliable to implement programmatically instas client-side, CCP choosed the server-side way. With the consequences we all know.
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:53:00 - [157] Thanks Semkhet... Although I didn't read all threads in the forum about this subject (kind of stuffed with all the rants going around), I was beginning to wonder... This solution is so... well... logic to me. And the only one that doesn't touch the gameplay (or any related function player-side) and is probably relativly not a too big hassle to introduce in a patch. I admit I'm in awe in front of the strange stillness of CCP about this since it has been like this for what... years now ? Anyway... I gave a solution (that wasn't very new anyway). Suggestion is made. ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
Hohenheim OfLight The MadKas Alliance Vanu Space Command	Posted - 2006.09.08 20:05:00 - [158] warp to 0 4tw ----------------------------------------------
Justadude	Posted - 2006.09.08 21:19:00 - [159] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/08/2006 06:19:38 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Additionally important, as has been stated numerous times by players, devs and myself, is the issue of vulnerability. The mass, speed and low slot count is supposed to be a factor in a ships class during travel but at the moment is being completely bypassed by instas jumps. It was flagged as being THE PRIMARY issue relating to instas by Oveur. Not the DB. Refocus your attention on vulnerability and leave the lag and hardware to the people who can actually do something about it and who have a clue. If they remove bookmarks just to make people slow as turtles when travelling, then I believe alot of people actually WILL quit. Im not saying its right, but people have gotten so used to instas that a replacement basicly needs to do the same thing. Alot of people simply dont have time to spend 3 minutes per system when travelling. And equipping MWD's etc might work sometimes, but what if you cant dock and switch gear at your destination, before fighting? I'm sorry, but if you dont have 3 minutes to spend .. this isnt the casual gamers paradise that some games are. Its supposed to be challenging and time consuming. If you want the fast track, I think theres a game that caters to the casual players who have no time to play... damn what is the name of it... I know it has hard core paladins smashin dat face...
tookar Amarr Krookid	Posted - 2006.09.08 22:02:00 - [160] Edited by: tookar on 08/09/2006 22:03:21 It seems simple to me just remove the damn things and allow people to have 100 bm each . This is enough for any reasonable 0.0 resident . It would also stop bs fleets roaming the galaxy as fast as an interceptor . People should ONLY have strategic bm in their own space in 0.0 unless sacrificing mobility in their own space to have some bm space for enemy space .more static borders with more realistic outcomes in wars between vastly different numbers of players where there SHOULD be one clear winner but due to these game mechanics never will be! Should 600 pilots no matter how skilled be able to resist 10000 pilots? Its ridiculous . Even the 300 spartans vs 4 million persians was really 5000 greeks vs maybe 100000 persians in a small pass . The reason 0.0 combat is so stale is that no fights happen that are not just ganks as any force that is one half the size flees and fights just small ganks hopefully the removal of local and instas would make this game even more fun than it is . PS . All you guys who want warp to 0.0 you do realise that EVERYONE will be travelling just as slow so maybe just maybe you wont have top jump 15 jumps to sell your stuff anyway .
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 23:00:00 - [161] Originally by: Spanker Edited by: Spanker on 08/09/2006 11:45:44 Haven't read the entire thread, nor am I going to. Too long. But. Say you remove instas and put in a warp to 0m feature on gates. That would mean everyone always warps to 0m. That, in turn, would mean that all gatecamps would use bubbles. That would mean everyone would die at a gatecamp since there's no getting away from it. And people would complain even more than they do now Bubbles can only be used in 0;.0 and they are already used frequently. That being said, the vast majority of pvp in 0.0 happens on exit to gates, not entrances. This is despite the fact that virtually everyone in 0.0 can already warp to 0km by using instas. Allowing people to warp to 0km changes nothing in 0.0 except server load and helps those newer to an area. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 23:04:00 - [162] Originally by: tookar Edited by: tookar on 08/09/2006 22:03:21 It seems simple to me just remove the damn things and allow people to have 100 bm each . This is enough for any reasonable 0.0 resident . It would also stop bs fleets roaming the galaxy as fast as an interceptor . People should ONLY have strategic bm in their own space in 0.0 unless sacrificing mobility in their own space to have some bm space for enemy space .more static borders with more realistic outcomes in wars between vastly different numbers of players where there SHOULD be one clear winner but due to these game mechanics never will be! Should 600 pilots no matter how skilled be able to resist 10000 pilots? Its ridiculous . Even the 300 spartans vs 4 million persians was really 5000 greeks vs maybe 100000 persians in a small pass . The reason 0.0 combat is so stale is that no fights happen that are not just ganks as any force that is one half the size flees and fights just small ganks hopefully the removal of local and instas would make this game even more fun than it is . PS . All you guys who want warp to 0.0 you do realise that EVERYONE will be travelling just as slow so maybe just maybe you wont have top jump 15 jumps to sell your stuff anyway . You clearly are: 1: empire bound with no idea what happens in 0.0 or the dynamic effect this would have on 0.0 2: immensely misinformed about the nature of 0.0 pvp. 3: inexperienced enough to not understand what wapring to 15 km would do to heavies that would have to take 5 min to crawl to each gate slowly, all the time being totally sitting ducks for anyone within three jumps in a fast ship. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.08 23:11:00 - [163] "2 wrongs dont make a right. And both of the statements above are incorrect. CCP have polled the players and instas are the number ONE issue players want fixed. Not sure where you get your 'majority' want to keep them but if its from the responses / posts on these forums I dont think the forums are a reliable and equal representation of the desires of the entire playerbase." Ya but it also doesnt mean that everyone wants the ability to warp to 0km removed....They want the performance problems that zillions of BM create removed. Wait infact I have no idea WTF poll your talking about that CCP did because I was'nt polled..... So I have no idea wtf you get the idea that CCP did some kinda poll and majority of the playerbase wanted the ability to warp to zero removed... LEt's stop kidding ourselves, people get caught on the other side of gates in EVE right now and it works just fine. We don;t need the abilty to catch people on both sides. you know camping a gate shouldnt mean 100% certainty nooone can get past you, infact it shouldnt even mean that 50% fail to pass you.... heck a good gate camp should maybe catch 15% imho. Ships just cost to much in eve to justify losing them to a lame gatecamp where you get mobbed by 3-6 people, who lack the balls to fight a real fight.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 23:41:00 - [164] If BMs are removed and not replaced with an alternative the lowsec sniping pirates using alts to collect the loot will have a bloody field day. Scan the gate from a safe, when there is a target on gate, warp in and kill it, warp out while alt collects loot. Having 15km warp distance pretty much acts like a bubble on every gate. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Mhormal Amarr Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.09 22:55:00 - [165] Edited by: Mhormal on 09/09/2006 22:56:15 I am not playing eve since very long but one thing that is really obvious : bookmarks are a chore to write , you must harass corpmates to give them to you , then waste huge amount of play time to recopy them , its slow it lag it bug , its boring , and it even cause problems to the server. That seems a terrible design flaw , it wont hurt CCP to include a warp to 0km option , well a few hundred lines of code probably , but id prefer to not have to copy any BM anymore rather than faction warfare. I really dont like that system of instas; For now EVE seems very unfriendly to begginers , low sec and 0.0 is a griefer heaven , pirates in tech 2 ships can destroy your ships in a few second , if you are a begginer or miner off course, and even if you gather friends to fight back , the only thing he has to do is to jump to safe spots until he can log off . Catching one pirate requires really too many people, theres no retaliation possible except a bubble at each gate and camping. i hope they will rework this system and not in few years , after massive subscription losses, as often seen with mmorpgs
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.10 07:41:00 - [166] Anotyher thing that poeple arent thinking aobut is that the only way to get RID of bookmarks would be to get rid of them alltogether, which would be destructive to other aspects of the game such as mining and tactical and safe spot bookmarks. If you prohibit making them from within 100km of the gate then you will also remove MANY MANY tactical bookmark options. The only SANE way to handle IJBMs is to make them not necessary. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?

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