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Cost of Death in PVP - Dissuading the Majority from PVP

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Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:26:00 - [1] I posted this in another thread, but it was slightly off topic, so I thought it may be useful to have a seperate discusison: Having played an awful lot of MMPORGs over the years I think EVEs only major problem is the cost of death. If the death penalty were in some way reduced further (cost of death in EVE is ship, fittings, plants, time to aquire replacements, time to earn cost of replacement), you would have a lot more people venturing out into the lower sec areas of space looking for a little fun. I played DAOC, arguably one of the best PVP games on the market at the time, this game had 0 death penalty for PVP, you got killed, you appeared back at your starting location equipment intact and with a short duration sickness timer to disuade suicide bombing. Success and advancement came from points earned in PVP combat. Things like 'I Remain Standing' scores added a sense of competition to the game play. Yes, you had to PVE to get equipment and skills to be competitive, but once you reached a certain level you could then make your choice to go PVP knowing that you were not going to suffer such a significant hit if you got killed. Maybe 0 death cost is too far the other way, but right now the cost of PVP death in EVE is what makes the 90% of the population who don't venture from safe space reluctant to head out. Can this be fixed in EVE? I don't know, maybe fully insurable modules would be a step forward, something needs to change, or 0.0 will remain the playground for the established or the rich. For example, and please don't get hung up on the numbers here, but what about a flat rate fully insurable premium for ship, modules and implants? Say 100mil flat rate. This would effectively cap the cost of death, something which would make PVP much more attractive for the part-timers out there or those who just want to PVP occasionally but don't want to risk thier entire rig just to have a little fun. If module 'durability' was also added, that is, for each time a module gets blown up with a ship, your replacement comes with reduced durability which, when it reaches 0 renders the module useless, items would still expire from the game over time and continue to create market demand (albeit somewhat reduced). The cost of death needs to be less if we are going to get that other 90% out of 0.5+ on a regular basis.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:28:00 - [2] It's fine. We play this game because it has the death penalty. That's what makes it fun. I hate using the cliche, but can't you go and play one of the games you specify without a death penalty, rather than trying to get ours screwed up? Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:29:00 - [3] Without the possibilty of defeat, victory becomes meaningless. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/09/2006 08:29:40 Originally by: Hectaire Glade We should remove one of Eve's defining features. No. ----------
Cxar	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:30:00 - [5] Edited by: Cxar on 04/09/2006 08:29:51 As a noob I have lost 2 thoraxes to pirates already and I have to say I disagree with this statement. With no death penalty part of the fun would be taken out of it because a certain sense of victory would be gone and more importantly, players would just try to engage everyone. One of the reasons I love this game so far is because CAN kill and loot a player character and its not just PVE with PVP for bragging rights. PVP is a game mechanic this way not a side feature.
E'Keiron	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:31:00 - [6] Sorry mate but the death penalty is what makes this game great. I cant remember the last time I played a game where the fear of death was so exciting. If you lose nothing, there is no thrill. Ive only been playing for about 3 months now, and I live in 0.0 pvp when I get the chance, its what makes me play the game... taking it away would be bad.
Jabbs	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:32:00 - [7] Oops, the above was me, loaded my market check char on accident.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Hectaire Glade The cost of death needs to be less if we are going to get that other 90% out of 0.5+ on a regular basis. I don't know about you but I do NOT want the carebear noobs in 0.0. I play and love EVE because you losea something when you die. WoW PvP sucks simply because if you kill someone 100x it doesn't hurt them one bit. If you kill someone in EVE 100x they lost 100 ships and it actually hurts them. I love that. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:33:00 - [9] Its not about removing the cost of death, its about capping the loss. Something needs to change or you will continue to have a 90% population imbalance to empire, or do you want things to remain as they are?
Agnst Murder of Crows Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:35:00 - [10] Wouldn't it just turn EVE into WoW in space? Most people play this game BECAUSE it has a death penalty. Without the current death penalties the market would crash for one because nobody would need to buy anything after the first time. PvP would become pointless and alliance wars in 0.0 would become obsolete. 0.0 Isnt just for the rich, there are plenty of areas you can go in 0.0.
Dethis Caldari Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:36:00 - [11] No nothing needs to be changed its been this way for 3 years now and it works most people play the game because of it so no -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
Jabbs	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:40:00 - [12] Have you ever actualy been to 0.0? i have no trouble finding people out there, usualy the other way around when I am trying to make money or haul stuff :D Not sure where ya get these 90% figures.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Rodj Blake Without the possibilty of defeat, victory becomes meaningless. QFT. Remove insurance for combat ships. Now every idiot can fly BSes all the time because the insurance pays for a new one...
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Its not about removing the cost of death, its about capping the loss. Something needs to change or you will continue to have a 90% population imbalance to empire, or do you want things to remain as they are? That imbalance comes more from the fact empire space has everything a player needs at hand where as in 0.0 you are pretty much out in the middle of no where with very limited logistical support (unless you are part of the local alliance or organised enough to handle your own logistics). Simple evidence for it is the relatively large constant population in the market hubs such as Jita where you can get pretty much anything you want quickly and easily. Destroying one of the defining features of Eve's pvp is not the solution. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:46:00 - [15] I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. The game needs to conitue to grow, that growth neccesitates expansion of the player base into lower sec, today that expansion has stalled, to continue to grow the population base, 2 routes are available, either change nothing in the mchanics and be forced to invest in more PVE content/higher sec areas to support a growing population, or make the transition to lower sec more attractive (i.e. less risky). The game development direction strongly favors the 0.0 route, something has to give. "If you build it they will come" doesn't fit in EVE. Think about the population dynamics of this game, yes we have a large proportion of dedicated full time gamers, but we also have a large number older players in stable real-life relationships with limited gaming time, this game appeals to those players due to the off-line skill capability. Those players today are being kept in Empire due to the risk of low sec, not to adjust the dynamics to enable these players to migrate is not a solid business strategy, this is one of the reasons you have the 7 month lifespan issue with the player base. I'm not saying remove the risk comepletey, I'm saying provide a mechanism to cap the risk, at a cost, which would enable more 'part-time' low sec playing, the results of which can only be good for everyone, no?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Its not about removing the cost of death, its about capping the loss. Something needs to change or you will continue to have a 90% population imbalance to empire, or do you want things to remain as they are? You can cap the loss yourself. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. And assumption is the mother of all ****ups. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:50:00 - [18] First off, your numbers are wrong. 10% of the accounts in EVE are in the 5 biggest alliances. There are many many more in 0.0 and lowsec outside these. However, you identify a problem which I think the majority of EVE will agree with you about; too many people live in Empire and rarely if ever venture out into lowsec. However, making ship losses easier to handle is definitely not the way to go. Atm the problem is rather that empire is a bit overpowered, mission running specifically. Empire mission runners can use expensive implants, faction mods and faction ships without any real fear of dying. This is what's overpowered and needs a good nerf Ofc I understand why the smug mission runners with a full +4 set and a faction fitted CNR won't head into lowsec. The (admittedly very small) chance of losing the ship is enough of a warning not to go there. What we need is a) better rats in lowsec, since atm they are a joke compared to what you can find in an average empire lvl 3 mission b) moving lvl 4 agents to lowsec -----
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Rodj Blake Without the possibilty of defeat, victory becomes meaningless. And that's the gist of it. I've never ever come close to the adrenaline rush EVE PvP gives. And I've played a lot of em.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. Well actually, yes. We all signed up for the game, and we signed up because we liked the game as it was, and is. CCP could have chosen to make a different game. They chose to make the game I play. There are many, MANY MMOs on the market, and I choose to pay for Eve because I like how it works. If I wanted it to work to play DAoC or whatever else, I'd play it. I wouldn't try and turn Eve into it. Let's take music. By your argument, any musical artist who isn't a vanilla pop act is doing something wrong, and should endeavour to be Britney Spears-like as possible. I'm listening to Audioslave at the moment. They aren't the most popular band in the world, and would probably be more popular if they sounded like Britney Spears. Still, I don't want them to do that, I would stop listening to them if they did, and possibly more importantly, I'm pretty sure they don't want to sound like that either. I think CCP want to make the game I choose to play, and if they make it a different game, I will find something else, and hang around waiting for someone to come screw it up Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Nerf Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Hectaire Glade extended whining No, no, no, no and no. You fail at posting. Signature removed as the image is unsuitable. If you have any questions, please mail us on [email protected] and include a link to the image in question. -Ivan K
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. Customer loyalty > new customers. EVE's business model is to try to keep players in EVE for as long as possible, not simply getting a ton of people they lose again after a few months. The latter business model works great if you've got a retail box you sell for 100$, but thankfully EVE hasn't got a business model like that. Again I'll repeat, your 90% never leaves hi-sec is meaningless, as this implies everyone outside the top 5 alliances never leave hisec. Which is obviously not right. -----
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:05:00 - [24] The cost of death in EVE is what makes it so fun to pvp. And as everyone has the free choice of how much he risks , I dont see a problem at all. You can happily go pvp in frig-gangs and tech I cruiser-gangs and have a load of fun and be very very efficient against HACs/BS etc without a big loss if your whole gang dies. Now dont whine about you need a gang for it, its a frigging MMORPG, if you play it to play solo you'll have to accept the drawbacks.
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. Good good, atleast one person who read the thread understood what I was trying to achieve with my post. If its not the cost of death which prevents people from leaving high sec, what is is, apart from risk/reward?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:06:00 - [26] Well, Rodj Blake pretty much said it all. However, I'll expand a little. EVE PvP has 'meaning' in that if you lose, you lose your ship. What this means, is that you see a mix of ships in space, because not everyone can afford to lose officer fitted faction ships. It means that an 'industrialist' actually has an advantage over a 'hardcore PvPer' - because put very simply, they're far far more able to sustain the losses. For the record, I'm not a hardcore PvPer. I've won a few fights, but lost a fair few more :). I don't _like_ losing ships, and I don't _like_ losing expensive fitted ships. But I wouldn't want a game where I pimp my raven, go killing, get popped, and am back out doing it again 5 minutes later. Seriously, the way to PvP is take your best ship, park it in a hangar, and go buy a stack of 10 + fittings of the best you can afford to do that with. Then go PvP in those. That's actually where caldari lose out somewhat, because cruiser/BC sized solo PvP ships they aren't so good at. However get together some friends, and that point's somewhat moot.
Leam Gallente Celtic industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. 1) random percentages ftl. 2) Insurance. If you fit your ship with plain t1 stuff and insure it, you barely lose other money than the insurance itself. 3) attrack other customers? Empire is 99% safe cept for the occasional suicide man. The kind of customers of "i want to pvp but not to lose anything" can fly insured kestrels and the like,or go play wow Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:14:00 - [28] The reason we have ~90% in empire is because ~90% of people are stupid. They continue to think that PvP means they need a full T2-fitted BS which takes them days to get and than lose it in a few min... People like myself keep telling them they don't need a BS to PvP and have fun and even if they do want to use the BS, it's so easy to replace once you're living in 0.0... With jump clones now, it's even easier for a carebear to go out and get some good PvP fun, but they still refuse to do it. So let's try one last time: YOU CAN USE JUMP CLONES TO PROTECT IMPLANTS AND JUST PvP IN A 300K RIFTER AND STILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN WITH ALMOST NO RISK! If you can't understand that, than go play WoW or one of the ~50 other PvE games out there with their thrown in as a last thought unbalanced PvP with no risk and leave us alone to enjoy a real game!
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:16:00 - [29] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Hectaire Glade If its not the cost of death which prevents people from leaving high sec, what is is, apart from risk/reward? Tbh, I think it's mostly boredom. I spent months operating in 0.0, both solo, in a corp, and in an alliance .... and nobody is ever going to persuade me that it's interesting. There's far more fun to be had in empire. I suspect that most of the people who are supposedly "afraid" of 0.0 just don't CARE about it, and prefer the playstyle they have now. Taking a quick look at the corp histories of people in various highsec systems indicate otherwise. I've so far only found one person that quit a 0.0 alliance to go back to live in empire, barring ofc transition periods. I've seen people come and go into Coreli over the 7 months I've been here...nearly all the people that left went on to join another 0.0 corp. -----
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Eilie The reason we have ~90% in empire is because ~90% of people are stupid. They continue to think that PvP means they need a full T2-fitted BS which takes them days to get and than lose it in a few min... People like myself keep telling them they don't need a BS to PvP and have fun and even if they do want to use the BS, it's so easy to replace once you're living in 0.0... With jump clones now, it's even easier for a carebear to go out and get some good PvP fun, but they still refuse to do it. So let's try one last time: YOU CAN USE JUMP CLONES TO PROTECT IMPLANTS AND JUST PvP IN A 300K RIFTER AND STILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN WITH ALMOST NO RISK! If you can't understand that, than go play WoW or one of the ~50 other PvE games out there with their thrown in as a last thought unbalanced PvP with no risk and leave us alone to enjoy a real game! Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. YOU enjoy PvP. Assuming therefore that EVERYONE would enjoy it, means it ain't the people in high-sec empire that are stupid ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."

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