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Cost of Death in PVP - Dissuading the Majority from PVP

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Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:26:00 - [1] I posted this in another thread, but it was slightly off topic, so I thought it may be useful to have a seperate discusison: Having played an awful lot of MMPORGs over the years I think EVEs only major problem is the cost of death. If the death penalty were in some way reduced further (cost of death in EVE is ship, fittings, plants, time to aquire replacements, time to earn cost of replacement), you would have a lot more people venturing out into the lower sec areas of space looking for a little fun. I played DAOC, arguably one of the best PVP games on the market at the time, this game had 0 death penalty for PVP, you got killed, you appeared back at your starting location equipment intact and with a short duration sickness timer to disuade suicide bombing. Success and advancement came from points earned in PVP combat. Things like 'I Remain Standing' scores added a sense of competition to the game play. Yes, you had to PVE to get equipment and skills to be competitive, but once you reached a certain level you could then make your choice to go PVP knowing that you were not going to suffer such a significant hit if you got killed. Maybe 0 death cost is too far the other way, but right now the cost of PVP death in EVE is what makes the 90% of the population who don't venture from safe space reluctant to head out. Can this be fixed in EVE? I don't know, maybe fully insurable modules would be a step forward, something needs to change, or 0.0 will remain the playground for the established or the rich. For example, and please don't get hung up on the numbers here, but what about a flat rate fully insurable premium for ship, modules and implants? Say 100mil flat rate. This would effectively cap the cost of death, something which would make PVP much more attractive for the part-timers out there or those who just want to PVP occasionally but don't want to risk thier entire rig just to have a little fun. If module 'durability' was also added, that is, for each time a module gets blown up with a ship, your replacement comes with reduced durability which, when it reaches 0 renders the module useless, items would still expire from the game over time and continue to create market demand (albeit somewhat reduced). The cost of death needs to be less if we are going to get that other 90% out of 0.5+ on a regular basis.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:28:00 - [2] It's fine. We play this game because it has the death penalty. That's what makes it fun. I hate using the cliche, but can't you go and play one of the games you specify without a death penalty, rather than trying to get ours screwed up? Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:29:00 - [3] Without the possibilty of defeat, victory becomes meaningless. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/09/2006 08:29:40 Originally by: Hectaire Glade We should remove one of Eve's defining features. No. ----------
Cxar	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:30:00 - [5] Edited by: Cxar on 04/09/2006 08:29:51 As a noob I have lost 2 thoraxes to pirates already and I have to say I disagree with this statement. With no death penalty part of the fun would be taken out of it because a certain sense of victory would be gone and more importantly, players would just try to engage everyone. One of the reasons I love this game so far is because CAN kill and loot a player character and its not just PVE with PVP for bragging rights. PVP is a game mechanic this way not a side feature.
E'Keiron	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:31:00 - [6] Sorry mate but the death penalty is what makes this game great. I cant remember the last time I played a game where the fear of death was so exciting. If you lose nothing, there is no thrill. Ive only been playing for about 3 months now, and I live in 0.0 pvp when I get the chance, its what makes me play the game... taking it away would be bad.
Jabbs	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:32:00 - [7] Oops, the above was me, loaded my market check char on accident.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Hectaire Glade The cost of death needs to be less if we are going to get that other 90% out of 0.5+ on a regular basis. I don't know about you but I do NOT want the carebear noobs in 0.0. I play and love EVE because you losea something when you die. WoW PvP sucks simply because if you kill someone 100x it doesn't hurt them one bit. If you kill someone in EVE 100x they lost 100 ships and it actually hurts them. I love that. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:33:00 - [9] Its not about removing the cost of death, its about capping the loss. Something needs to change or you will continue to have a 90% population imbalance to empire, or do you want things to remain as they are?
Agnst Murder of Crows Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:35:00 - [10] Wouldn't it just turn EVE into WoW in space? Most people play this game BECAUSE it has a death penalty. Without the current death penalties the market would crash for one because nobody would need to buy anything after the first time. PvP would become pointless and alliance wars in 0.0 would become obsolete. 0.0 Isnt just for the rich, there are plenty of areas you can go in 0.0.
Dethis Caldari Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:36:00 - [11] No nothing needs to be changed its been this way for 3 years now and it works most people play the game because of it so no -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
Jabbs	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:40:00 - [12] Have you ever actualy been to 0.0? i have no trouble finding people out there, usualy the other way around when I am trying to make money or haul stuff :D Not sure where ya get these 90% figures.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Rodj Blake Without the possibilty of defeat, victory becomes meaningless. QFT. Remove insurance for combat ships. Now every idiot can fly BSes all the time because the insurance pays for a new one...
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Its not about removing the cost of death, its about capping the loss. Something needs to change or you will continue to have a 90% population imbalance to empire, or do you want things to remain as they are? That imbalance comes more from the fact empire space has everything a player needs at hand where as in 0.0 you are pretty much out in the middle of no where with very limited logistical support (unless you are part of the local alliance or organised enough to handle your own logistics). Simple evidence for it is the relatively large constant population in the market hubs such as Jita where you can get pretty much anything you want quickly and easily. Destroying one of the defining features of Eve's pvp is not the solution. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:46:00 - [15] I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. The game needs to conitue to grow, that growth neccesitates expansion of the player base into lower sec, today that expansion has stalled, to continue to grow the population base, 2 routes are available, either change nothing in the mchanics and be forced to invest in more PVE content/higher sec areas to support a growing population, or make the transition to lower sec more attractive (i.e. less risky). The game development direction strongly favors the 0.0 route, something has to give. "If you build it they will come" doesn't fit in EVE. Think about the population dynamics of this game, yes we have a large proportion of dedicated full time gamers, but we also have a large number older players in stable real-life relationships with limited gaming time, this game appeals to those players due to the off-line skill capability. Those players today are being kept in Empire due to the risk of low sec, not to adjust the dynamics to enable these players to migrate is not a solid business strategy, this is one of the reasons you have the 7 month lifespan issue with the player base. I'm not saying remove the risk comepletey, I'm saying provide a mechanism to cap the risk, at a cost, which would enable more 'part-time' low sec playing, the results of which can only be good for everyone, no?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Its not about removing the cost of death, its about capping the loss. Something needs to change or you will continue to have a 90% population imbalance to empire, or do you want things to remain as they are? You can cap the loss yourself. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. And assumption is the mother of all ****ups. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:50:00 - [18] First off, your numbers are wrong. 10% of the accounts in EVE are in the 5 biggest alliances. There are many many more in 0.0 and lowsec outside these. However, you identify a problem which I think the majority of EVE will agree with you about; too many people live in Empire and rarely if ever venture out into lowsec. However, making ship losses easier to handle is definitely not the way to go. Atm the problem is rather that empire is a bit overpowered, mission running specifically. Empire mission runners can use expensive implants, faction mods and faction ships without any real fear of dying. This is what's overpowered and needs a good nerf Ofc I understand why the smug mission runners with a full +4 set and a faction fitted CNR won't head into lowsec. The (admittedly very small) chance of losing the ship is enough of a warning not to go there. What we need is a) better rats in lowsec, since atm they are a joke compared to what you can find in an average empire lvl 3 mission b) moving lvl 4 agents to lowsec -----
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Rodj Blake Without the possibilty of defeat, victory becomes meaningless. And that's the gist of it. I've never ever come close to the adrenaline rush EVE PvP gives. And I've played a lot of em.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. Well actually, yes. We all signed up for the game, and we signed up because we liked the game as it was, and is. CCP could have chosen to make a different game. They chose to make the game I play. There are many, MANY MMOs on the market, and I choose to pay for Eve because I like how it works. If I wanted it to work to play DAoC or whatever else, I'd play it. I wouldn't try and turn Eve into it. Let's take music. By your argument, any musical artist who isn't a vanilla pop act is doing something wrong, and should endeavour to be Britney Spears-like as possible. I'm listening to Audioslave at the moment. They aren't the most popular band in the world, and would probably be more popular if they sounded like Britney Spears. Still, I don't want them to do that, I would stop listening to them if they did, and possibly more importantly, I'm pretty sure they don't want to sound like that either. I think CCP want to make the game I choose to play, and if they make it a different game, I will find something else, and hang around waiting for someone to come screw it up Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Nerf Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Hectaire Glade extended whining No, no, no, no and no. You fail at posting. Signature removed as the image is unsuitable. If you have any questions, please mail us on [email protected] and include a link to the image in question. -Ivan K
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. Customer loyalty > new customers. EVE's business model is to try to keep players in EVE for as long as possible, not simply getting a ton of people they lose again after a few months. The latter business model works great if you've got a retail box you sell for 100$, but thankfully EVE hasn't got a business model like that. Again I'll repeat, your 90% never leaves hi-sec is meaningless, as this implies everyone outside the top 5 alliances never leave hisec. Which is obviously not right. -----
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:05:00 - [24] The cost of death in EVE is what makes it so fun to pvp. And as everyone has the free choice of how much he risks , I dont see a problem at all. You can happily go pvp in frig-gangs and tech I cruiser-gangs and have a load of fun and be very very efficient against HACs/BS etc without a big loss if your whole gang dies. Now dont whine about you need a gang for it, its a frigging MMORPG, if you play it to play solo you'll have to accept the drawbacks.
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. Good good, atleast one person who read the thread understood what I was trying to achieve with my post. If its not the cost of death which prevents people from leaving high sec, what is is, apart from risk/reward?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:06:00 - [26] Well, Rodj Blake pretty much said it all. However, I'll expand a little. EVE PvP has 'meaning' in that if you lose, you lose your ship. What this means, is that you see a mix of ships in space, because not everyone can afford to lose officer fitted faction ships. It means that an 'industrialist' actually has an advantage over a 'hardcore PvPer' - because put very simply, they're far far more able to sustain the losses. For the record, I'm not a hardcore PvPer. I've won a few fights, but lost a fair few more :). I don't _like_ losing ships, and I don't _like_ losing expensive fitted ships. But I wouldn't want a game where I pimp my raven, go killing, get popped, and am back out doing it again 5 minutes later. Seriously, the way to PvP is take your best ship, park it in a hangar, and go buy a stack of 10 + fittings of the best you can afford to do that with. Then go PvP in those. That's actually where caldari lose out somewhat, because cruiser/BC sized solo PvP ships they aren't so good at. However get together some friends, and that point's somewhat moot.
Leam Gallente Celtic industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. 1) random percentages ftl. 2) Insurance. If you fit your ship with plain t1 stuff and insure it, you barely lose other money than the insurance itself. 3) attrack other customers? Empire is 99% safe cept for the occasional suicide man. The kind of customers of "i want to pvp but not to lose anything" can fly insured kestrels and the like,or go play wow Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:14:00 - [28] The reason we have ~90% in empire is because ~90% of people are stupid. They continue to think that PvP means they need a full T2-fitted BS which takes them days to get and than lose it in a few min... People like myself keep telling them they don't need a BS to PvP and have fun and even if they do want to use the BS, it's so easy to replace once you're living in 0.0... With jump clones now, it's even easier for a carebear to go out and get some good PvP fun, but they still refuse to do it. So let's try one last time: YOU CAN USE JUMP CLONES TO PROTECT IMPLANTS AND JUST PvP IN A 300K RIFTER AND STILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN WITH ALMOST NO RISK! If you can't understand that, than go play WoW or one of the ~50 other PvE games out there with their thrown in as a last thought unbalanced PvP with no risk and leave us alone to enjoy a real game!
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:16:00 - [29] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Hectaire Glade If its not the cost of death which prevents people from leaving high sec, what is is, apart from risk/reward? Tbh, I think it's mostly boredom. I spent months operating in 0.0, both solo, in a corp, and in an alliance .... and nobody is ever going to persuade me that it's interesting. There's far more fun to be had in empire. I suspect that most of the people who are supposedly "afraid" of 0.0 just don't CARE about it, and prefer the playstyle they have now. Taking a quick look at the corp histories of people in various highsec systems indicate otherwise. I've so far only found one person that quit a 0.0 alliance to go back to live in empire, barring ofc transition periods. I've seen people come and go into Coreli over the 7 months I've been here...nearly all the people that left went on to join another 0.0 corp. -----
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Eilie The reason we have ~90% in empire is because ~90% of people are stupid. They continue to think that PvP means they need a full T2-fitted BS which takes them days to get and than lose it in a few min... People like myself keep telling them they don't need a BS to PvP and have fun and even if they do want to use the BS, it's so easy to replace once you're living in 0.0... With jump clones now, it's even easier for a carebear to go out and get some good PvP fun, but they still refuse to do it. So let's try one last time: YOU CAN USE JUMP CLONES TO PROTECT IMPLANTS AND JUST PvP IN A 300K RIFTER AND STILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN WITH ALMOST NO RISK! If you can't understand that, than go play WoW or one of the ~50 other PvE games out there with their thrown in as a last thought unbalanced PvP with no risk and leave us alone to enjoy a real game! Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. YOU enjoy PvP. Assuming therefore that EVERYONE would enjoy it, means it ain't the people in high-sec empire that are stupid ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Hebus Zanheros Gallente Elegance	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:17:00 - [31] No risks = no Fun -----------------------------------------------
Spike Larosse Occassus Republica Process of Elimination	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:18:00 - [32] Well if you make up figures like that it's easy to build up an argument around it. So please actually check some facts before going on a spree out on the forums. Already the 10 largest alliances, all involved in 0.0 space activity and thus basically requiring their members to spend time in 0.0, have a total of almost 22k members. There goes the 10%. So the rest never even leave for 0.4 space? lol. ------------------------------------------------ -OCC-
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Hebus Zanheros No risks = no Fun well wanna be pirates can use the new (old) noob corp invite in empire have 2 other toons at war invite unsuspecting carebear into gang then invite 2 at war toons into the gang - isnta gank = great fun to be had by all
Valkazm Amarr Cursed Spawn Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:21:00 - [34] what an idiotic idea first lets get through the things you havent even thought about Mercs the proffesion itself would seize to exist why would someone pay them if they cant inflict any damage .. to isk at all .. POS warfare will be a walk in the park as long as you have the numbers just push up new players to attack it oh i died oh well ill be there in a few jumps guys keep attacking it .. Awww i lost my carrier do to minning with it oh well i have a new one thanks to the nice respawn point back to minning i hope there not there agian i will have to switch belts .. aww my freighter got ganked oh well ill just keep moving it through there untill they give up killing it .. pfft stop and think for a moment ..
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:21:00 - [35] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Eilie The reason we have ~90% in empire is because ~90% of people are stupid. They continue to think that PvP means they need a full T2-fitted BS which takes them days to get and than lose it in a few min... People like myself keep telling them they don't need a BS to PvP and have fun and even if they do want to use the BS, it's so easy to replace once you're living in 0.0... With jump clones now, it's even easier for a carebear to go out and get some good PvP fun, but they still refuse to do it. So let's try one last time: YOU CAN USE JUMP CLONES TO PROTECT IMPLANTS AND JUST PvP IN A 300K RIFTER AND STILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN WITH ALMOST NO RISK! If you can't understand that, than go play WoW or one of the ~50 other PvE games out there with their thrown in as a last thought unbalanced PvP with no risk and leave us alone to enjoy a real game! Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. YOU enjoy PvP. Assuming therefore that EVERYONE would enjoy it, means it ain't the people in high-sec empire that are stupid Maybe you just sucked then. Or was engaged in some seriously lameass pvp, like logontactics or guarding ASCN gates from noobship scouts 24/7 in zomg wtf huge gatecamps. The people that are able to compete with fellow players, do. The ones that can't stay in highsec. Oh, and the smart mission runners stay in highsec too. And the macrominers. -----
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:22:00 - [36] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. So why don't you stop *****ing it's too hard and go play with the market or the veldspar or the agents or whatever Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. So why don't you stop complaining it's too hard and go play with the market or the veldspar or the agents or whatever I never HAVE complained it was too hard. The only thing I complain about is all those idiots who think THEY know what WE will enjoy doing. They don't. They also don't seem to comprehend that EVE is designed to cater for both groups. You go have your fun, and let us have ours, and stop telling us that what we do isn't fun. You're wrong. If it wasn't fun, we wouldn't be doing it. We're not trying to force you to do what we like, stop trying to force us to do what you like. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. So why don't you stop complaining it's too hard and go play with the market or the veldspar or the agents or whatever I never HAVE complained it was too hard. The only thing I complain about is all those idiots who think THEY know what WE will enjoy doing. They don't. They also don't seem to comprehend that EVE is designed to cater for both groups. You go have your fun, and let us have ours, and stop telling us that what we do isn't fun. You're wrong. If it wasn't fun, we wouldn't be doing it. We're not trying to force you to do what we like, stop trying to force us to do what you like. And yet the OP is trying to stop what we like entirely, so he can try something he thinsk might be cool, and you are defending him. What's your point? Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:30:00 - [39] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Eilie The reason we have ~90% in empire is because ~90% of people are stupid. They continue to think that PvP means they need a full T2-fitted BS which takes them days to get and than lose it in a few min... People like myself keep telling them they don't need a BS to PvP and have fun and even if they do want to use the BS, it's so easy to replace once you're living in 0.0... With jump clones now, it's even easier for a carebear to go out and get some good PvP fun, but they still refuse to do it. So let's try one last time: YOU CAN USE JUMP CLONES TO PROTECT IMPLANTS AND JUST PvP IN A 300K RIFTER AND STILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN WITH ALMOST NO RISK! If you can't understand that, than go play WoW or one of the ~50 other PvE games out there with their thrown in as a last thought unbalanced PvP with no risk and leave us alone to enjoy a real game! Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. YOU enjoy PvP. Assuming therefore that EVERYONE would enjoy it, means it ain't the people in high-sec empire that are stupid Umm, I was replying to the OP who's whole point was about the cost... Pay attention before you troll! And yea, besides you I havn't met anyone who doesn't like PvP for any reason other than the cost. Sure there are people who don't like certain types of PvP (such as laggy fleet battles) but there are many other kinds of PvP... If you don't care about the cost/risk and still won't PvP, than you're playing the wrong game!
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Wrong on all counts. It isn't the cost, OR the risk, that stops me from PvPing. It's the complete and utter lack of fun. So why don't you stop complaining it's too hard and go play with the market or the veldspar or the agents or whatever I never HAVE complained it was too hard. The only thing I complain about is all those idiots who think THEY know what WE will enjoy doing. They don't. They also don't seem to comprehend that EVE is designed to cater for both groups. You go have your fun, and let us have ours, and stop telling us that what we do isn't fun. You're wrong. If it wasn't fun, we wouldn't be doing it. We're not trying to force you to do what we like, stop trying to force us to do what you like. Players in EVE serve two purposes for CCP: 1) They provide income in the form of subscriptions 2) They provide fun for the other players So yeah, you're here for mine and everyone else's enjoyment as much as your own. Now quit whining and go into lowsec to get ganked -----
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:33:00 - [41] The problem with this suggested change is that it affects everyone. Without loss, PvP becomes utterly pointless. Without loss, I won't need to replace my stilettos, my wolfs, my tempests, my scorpions I lose in battle. Which means'mining becomes pointless, ratting becomes pointless. Even worse, the guy you just killed in his stabbed vagabond, he'll be back 5 mins later in a new one if there is no loss. Yeah, that sounds like fun. Utterly pointless PvP
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:39:00 - [42] Edited by: Hectaire Glade on 04/09/2006 09:39:29 I'm not saying remove all loss, I'm saying cap the loss, financially.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:40:00 - [43] I recently decided to try WoW. The primary reason that I quit after such a short time and came back to EvE is the very thing you would remove. WoW has no death penalty worth mentioning, no danger and thus no thrill. You die in EvE, you seethe, you get mad, maybe you have to log out and calm down. You die in WoW you tut, roll your eyes and spend 5 minutes running back to your corpse to resurrect. Give me EvE and give me Death. (BTW, I'm one of your 90% and I have absolutely been blown up in <0.5 space by players) ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:40:00 - [44] Edited by: Verus Potestas on 04/09/2006 09:40:50 Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm not saying remove all loos, I'm saying cap the loss, financially. You mean limit how much you can lose? Like by flying a cheaper or more insurable ship? Genius! What will they think of next? edit: and removing all loos is just griefing Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:44:00 - [45] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Edited by: Hectaire Glade on 04/09/2006 09:39:29 I'm not saying remove all loss, I'm saying cap the loss, financially. For the love of god... YOU already control how much you lose! Don't PvP with stuff you can't afford to lose... With your idea everyone will have setups worth 2bil but only lose 100mil per death? It'll make PvP completely pointless and also ruin the economy!
Ginger Magician Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:47:00 - [46] The argument about improving the rewards in low sec and trying to get more players to come there is valid but the thing is players have been saying this for 2 years or more and CCP just dont take any notice whatsoever of it it seems. Crappy rats exact same agents as high sec no high end ore and 5k player pirates whose sole aim in playing is to destroy your ship pod u and loot your mods why on earth would any carebear or new player ever consider coming to low sec? In fact the vast majority who enter low sec are forced to do so by high sec agents which again I dont believe to be corect either.Remove level 3 and 4 agents from high sec and then u will have a proper pvp game. If a few bears leave so what - its hardly going to be a game breaker.
Rashmika Clavain	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:48:00 - [47] Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 04/09/2006 09:51:16 With all due respect to the original poster, you simply don't get it. I live in high sec because I want to, not because I am afraid of losing a ship in 0.0; I live in high sec because my corp is there, through choice. We are engaged in corp wars of our own volition, yet if we are scared of PVP in low sec, why would we engage in corp wars in Empire? Of all the people who have replied to this, I would say "90%" are against your idea, yet you still try to peddle it. If you don't like it, don't play or don't risk it... but stop trying to change it to suit your own needs at the expense of the majority. Kthx.
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Edited by: Hectaire Glade on 04/09/2006 09:39:29 I'm not saying remove all loss, I'm saying cap the loss, financially. Read Rodj's post. You cap the loss by deciding what you fly. Comfortable with a 5mill loss? Fly a cruiser and not a bs...
Tao Han Caldari Crucial Electronics	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:58:00 - [49] I think there should be even more finacial loss in wars, like removal of insurance or atleast change it so that you will take more of a financial hit. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes Leave my sigs alone *sob - Tao Han
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:01:00 - [50] Without any/little cost in death, powerful alliances will never be able to be defeated. I love pvp, and also the cost in defeat is what makes the game awesome :) and when you defeat someone, the feeling that you get is so much better then any other. -------------------------- 0.01 ISK to the first mod that writes in my sig! :D Pay cash value in cookies plskthx - Immy Oh man thats gonna be a lot of cookies. Make them chocolate chip aswell - Xorus I'll give ya a goat for them cookies!-Tirg
Damien Smith Turbulent	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:03:00 - [51] The problem isn't that people don't leave high sec because they fear low sec. It's that they have no reason to leave it. Farming lvl 4 missions gives you all the isk you'll ever need and with next to no risk too. This is what's screwed up in eve. All you carebears (note I said carebears, not industrialists. Industrialists don't whine, they adapt.) keep going on about pirates running low sec ganking people who enter there. Well if all you miners, manufacturers, mission runners, traders etc had a reason to go to low sec, then I'm sure some of you could use some collective common sense to team up and attack the pirates back. Teamwork is why the pirates run low sec, it's also why the antipirates give as good as they get from the pirates. If you want safe passage into the areas you want to get to, then provide it yourselves. Capping the loss is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. If you want to lose less, risk less. The great thing about eve is that players are encouraged to sort their problems out themselves, instead of whining for the devs to change the game to suit them. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) Mission running carebears drop good loot. Probe one out today! I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus +=♥ - Immy
Ozzie Asrail Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:06:00 - [52] It's the risk v reward in high sec compared to low sec that stops poeple going there not simply the cost of death. Move all level 4 agents out to low sec and the problem is solved. -----
Mrmuttley House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:06:00 - [53] hehe I just got popped in a bubble camp flying around a region where my corp has no claim to control. It was only an interceptor and my clone but the total loss was around 50 mill. This is easily affordable by me but it still means something to lose it. I can't afford to lose stuff like that 100 times. Therefore it serves as a reminder to take care in what your doing. Infact the whole reason I got killed was because I made a careless mistake. Eve has punished me for being lazy. Thats the bit I like about it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated. Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve is not supposed to be fair
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:08:00 - [54] Stop trying to hage the game to fit your short comings! I an't be bothered to say more than that as you arent worth it tbfh.
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:11:00 - [55] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Hectaire Glade I'm working on the assumption that its not 'fine'. As I said, we aren't playing any of the other games which pander to risk-free leeroy-kiddies. We're playing eve, because death means something. Leave my game alone. And 90% of the player base never leaves hi-sec space. If it's NOT the heavy death penalty that keeps them there, what is it, and how are you going to persuade them to move? Or do you seriously believe that just because YOU like it how it is, then there's no need for CCP to even attempt to attract any other customers. 95% of al figures are made up on the stop. I knew you'd chime into this thread as its like flies to ****. Althogh in this case you arent even the flies. CCP doesnt need to grow anymore until they are ready. NEWS FLASH,they already toned the game down ALOT from release. Your constant trolling and whining about Eve being harsh is very annoying.
Cmdr Sy EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:14:00 - [56] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 04/09/2006 10:14:34 Originally by: Hectaire Glade Having played an awful lot of MMPORGs over the years I think EVEs only major problem is the cost of death. If the death penalty were in some way reduced further (cost of death in EVE is ship, fittings, plants, time to aquire replacements, time to earn cost of replacement), you would have a lot more people venturing out into the lower sec areas of space looking for a little fun. I don't want quantity, I want quality. I want the few, heisitant gang / fleet encounters I have in any given corp or alliance to mean something, rather than getting PVP on tap with nothing at stake. Originally by: Hectaire Glade I played DAOC, arguably one of the best PVP games on the market at the time, this game had 0 death penalty for PVP, you got killed, you appeared back at your starting location equipment intact and with a short duration sickness timer to disuade suicide bombing. Success and advancement came from points earned in PVP combat. Things like 'I Remain Standing' scores added a sense of competition to the game play. Yes, you had to PVE to get equipment and skills to be competitive, but once you reached a certain level you could then make your choice to go PVP knowing that you were not going to suffer such a significant hit if you got killed. CS:S is also one of the best PVP games on the market. I got fed up after a couple of nights. And this is the reason why. Originally by: Hectaire Glade Maybe 0 death cost is too far the other way, but right now the cost of PVP death in EVE is what makes the 90% of the population who don't venture from safe space reluctant to head out. That's their problem. It's kind of realistic anyway. It's a galactic empires game, and not every trader with trader skills and mentality, is going to strap on blasters and go fight the pirates. Some might. The Empire war mechanism has it partly covered anyway. The rest, I'm not worried about. They have their role in the economy either way. Originally by: Hectaire Glade Can this be fixed in EVE? I don't know, maybe fully insurable modules would be a step forward, something needs to change, or 0.0 will remain the playground for the established or the rich. I was never rich when I entered 0.0, though I was when I left it. And to get established, you have to take the step. There are ways of doing it. Originally by: Hectaire Glade For example, and please don't get hung up on the numbers here, but what about a flat rate fully insurable premium for ship, modules and implants? Say 100mil flat rate. This would effectively cap the cost of death, something which would make PVP much more attractive for the part-timers out there or those who just want to PVP occasionally but don't want to risk thier entire rig just to have a little fun. If one ship is "their entire rig", then they're not ready for PVP. We don't need the removal of costs of death, and the impact this would inevitably have on the outcome of Empire and 0.0 wars, just so people with all their eggs in one basket can dip their toe in the water. [/cliche] Originally by: Hectaire Glade If module 'durability' was also added, that is, for each time a module gets blown up with a ship, your replacement comes with reduced durability which, when it reaches 0 renders the module useless, items would still expire from the game over time and continue to create market demand (albeit somewhat reduced). The cost of death needs to be less if we are going to get that other 90% out of 0.5+ on a regular basis. We don't need the old WoW mechanics here. If that is the price to be paid to get more safe space people into low sec, I'd rather not have them. Harsh, but it can probably be achieved some other way with time.
3rdD Dave Gallente Dark Entropy iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:35:00 - [57] but the cost of someone else demise by your hands is oooh sooo delicious ! if ppl dnt pvp their loss !
Caztra Tor	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:37:00 - [58] @OP-- You make me want to be a pirate. Please leave the game and take all those that think like you do. PvP losses too hard! OMG No, What you want is the economic benefits of 0.0 w/o risk. Anyone know where these whiners are coming from?
3rdD Dave Gallente Dark Entropy iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:43:00 - [59] Empire !
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:46:00 - [60] CCP made EVE as a HARDCORE PVP GAME. If you want to have 0 DEATH PENALTY, it wont be a HARDCORE PVP GAME would it? If CCP wanted to make a SOFTCORE PVP GAME they would do so dont you think, but they DIDNT, so WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:50:00 - [61] I think it tells me NoInt joined SMASH. I don't see an announcement in Corp and Alliance discussion though. Any particular reason why? Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:56:00 - [62] Originally by: Verus Potestas I think it tells me NoInt joined SMASH. I don't see an announcement in Corp and Alliance discussion though. Any particular reason why? What you want an announcemnt?
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:58:00 - [63] Well, I'm interested in these things When I said why, it was why did you move, not why isn't there an announcement. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Ms Muneca AYDS	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:00:00 - [64] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/09/2006 08:29:40 Originally by: Hectaire Glade We should remove one of Eve's defining features. No. rofl (<3 the modified quote) But, yes. I agree. The death penalty is EVE is WHY the pvp in this game is so great. It MEANS something when you die or you kill someone. ----------- ----------- -----------
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:00:00 - [65] cause we wanted too :)
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:06:00 - [66] PvP losses too hard? lol Only if you chose them to be. You can be very effective with very cheap fits. And flying a more expensive fit makes survival important, adding a lot of thrill to the fight. And if you mean being ganked, you should know what you get yourself into when going to lowsec (disregarding suicide ganks here, I do think those need to be curbed). Your own fault for being careless if you happen to lose an expensive ship there (been there, done that...) Also, if you want EVE-PvP without risk, go to the test server :P --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Dane Hur Caldari DaHOOD Communication	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:06:00 - [67] If death doesnt cost anything, wars would be gone, not much fun in fighting another corp, when you can hurt them. 95% of the population would move into low sec, because it would be risk free. No thanks! The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. - Wilfred Owen
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock cause we wanted too :) Good answer Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:09:00 - [69] The danger of death is part of the thrill. For example flying solo into an enemy system in a Battleship, demolishing someone and then escaping before the cavalry arrives is genuinely adrenaline inducing because you have a lot to loose if you **** it up. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Ms Muneca AYDS	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:10:00 - [70] To be honest I thought this was a joke thread at first. I laughed. ----------- ----------- -----------
Cmdr Sy EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:13:00 - [71] You know, jump clones have already removed one of the biggest anti-PVP whines, that you couldn't insure implants. Am I wrong? People were forever citing the hundreds of millions of ISK in implant losses as the main reason keeping them out of low sec. Now it's cost of ship fittings? People can't afford to replace their clone and lose 10 mil when a T2-fitted Thorax explodes? I don't understand that.
Krist Valentine Amarr Bad Omen Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:15:00 - [72] Edited by: Krist Valentine on 04/09/2006 11:15:35 Man, the amount you have to lose in PVP is what makes it such a great experience. 0 death penalty is lame. By what you've said, there's no point in having escorts if you mine, there's no way for pirates to make their business, there's no big deal about having a faction ship. Seriously, that's a terrible idea. - - - - - Krist Valentine > Anti Pirate [An-tee-py-rut] - NOUN - Miner who got podded and trained for a Ferox.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:15:00 - [73] Originally by: Cmdr Sy You know, jump clones have already removed one of the biggest anti-PVP whines, that you couldn't insure implants. Am I wrong? People were forever citing the hundreds of millions of ISK in implant losses as the main reason keeping them out of low sec. Now it's cost of ship fittings? People can't afford to replace their clone and lose 10 mil when a T2-fitted Thorax explodes? I don't understand that. I must admit, I avoided 0.0 before jumpclones, because I had a head of +4s I didn't want to lose. In empire, I can look after them pretty damn well. In 0.0, I'm much more likely to lose them. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Gouglash Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:16:00 - [74] To answer the question of why it is that '90% of eve never leaves empire', it's not due to the losses you might incure from dying. Everyone in empire goes into low sec space from time to time, and, to be perfectly honest, low sec is more dangerous than most 0.0. Hell, I live in 0.0 99% of the time, and I am scared of low sec empire! The reason people in empire don't go into 0.0 is because everytime I log in my noob alt to check market in some other region, some dolt in the noobcorp chat is telling all the new players that 0.0 is super dangerous, unfun, or any number of other things. Take Baldour here, for example. He projects his ****ty 0.0 experience to everyone, and doesn't even attempt to temper it with truisms such as "the game is what you make it." It's not 0.0's fault that Baldour didn't have fun, or that Baldour lost more ships than he could afford, or that Baldour thinks missions are more fun than owning space. It's Baldour's fault. People like Baldour never tell people that, though, they just scare new players into thinking 0.0 space is something only 20m + SP pilots can enjoy. Then those newer players become older players, and they just repeat the story. I've seen it many times, argued it many times, and new players don't know who to believe. Most of the time they think I am trying to lure them to my gatecamp or something...
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:19:00 - [75] Originally by: Eilie The reason we have ~90% in empire is because ~90% of people are stupid. They continue to think that PvP means they need a full T2-fitted BS which takes them days to get and than lose it in a few min... People like myself keep telling them they don't need a BS to PvP and have fun and even if they do want to use the BS, it's so easy to replace once you're living in 0.0... With jump clones now, it's even easier for a carebear to go out and get some good PvP fun, but they still refuse to do it. So let's try one last time: YOU CAN USE JUMP CLONES TO PROTECT IMPLANTS AND JUST PvP IN A 300K RIFTER AND STILL HAVE LOTS OF FUN WITH ALMOST NO RISK! If you can't understand that, than go play WoW or one of the ~50 other PvE games out there with their thrown in as a last thought unbalanced PvP with no risk and leave us alone to enjoy a real game! /emote clap This is exactly my view on it as well, people seem to think that to go to 0.0 and pvp you need the best ship, with the best implants, with the best tech II or even better faction mods fitted to it, so they spend months building the ub3r ship, they then have spent every penny they have on it and head off to find out what this 0.0 pvp is all about. First jump in, they are bubbled, and dead in less than 30 secs, they then come on the forum and whine that the ship either sucked, the race of the ship sucked, player rats are spoiling the game, the cost of death is to high etc etc etc. Muppets tbqh. CEO - Art of War
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:27:00 - [76] Playing EvE is about enjoying yourself. It should be why you play. Some enjoy the politics, some the pvp, some runnnig missions, some mining, some trading, some sick puppies enjoy ruining peoples day for the fun of it, and some enjoy all of the above. Due to Jump Clones, I can enjoy training big skills while running missions in empire with an implant clone (as I am atm) while being able to jump to my home in 0.0 at a moments notice to help with pvp. In pvp I usually fly a T2 frigate, which tbh isn't worht insuring due to the difference between build cost and selling prices. When my character was younger, I used to ***** a low sec lvl 2 agent during the week to afford to buy an interceptor and fittongs, which would be flown down to 0.0 on teh weekend, and pvped with untill it went pop, then I'd restart the cycle. I didn't make any money during that time, but I hugeley enjoyed myself doing it I would gladly see all lvl 4 agents moved to low sec. I only go to the market hubs when I go on a shopping spree, and can't be arsed with trecking around to pick up all my new stuff. Even though I am now able to earn isk faster than when I was running lvl 2s I still only pvp in a T2 frigate or T1 cruiser because I can only afford 1 BS at this time. When I finally get the isk together to own 3, then I'll start pvping in a BS if that size ship is required (there is nothing worse than being in a BS only fleet, or a fleet without enough BS support!) AS stated BS are not neccesary for pvp, and hurt a hell of a lot more to lose than a cruiser or frigate does. The best way to get people out of empire is to increase the rewards in low sec / 0.0, and to educate people about those areas. Low sec does not mean that you WILL be killed as soon as you try and get there, just that if you are unlucky / not paying enough attention, you CAN be killed. All teh while I was running my agent in 0.3 I never lost a ship to players, and was only shot at once because I played smart. I also learned a lot of techniques and tactics, that help keep me safe in 0.0 (and have been forced to remember a few I forgot when I get popped by gank squads too ). Anyway, I'll stop rambling now Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button <3 - Immy
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:32:00 - [77] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Playing EvE is about enjoying yourself. It should be why you play. Some enjoy the politics, some the pvp, some sick puppies enjoy runnnig missions, some mining, some trading, some ruining peoples day for the fun of it, and some enjoy all of the above. Fixed ----------
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:33:00 - [78] I wouldn't mind if you get to keep your implants when you die .. otherwise it's fine Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must."
Ilmonstre Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:36:00 - [79] Edited by: Ilmonstre on 04/09/2006 11:36:45 Originally by: Kuolematon I wouldn't mind if you get to keep your implants when you die .. otherwise it's fine it would destroy the implant market if you did that. wich also means alot of agent offers will be worth next to nothing
Jaine	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:37:00 - [80] Cant imagine eve with zero loss its the thrill of it, have played other online games but this is the only game that maket the heart pound. Nice feeling and rush even if u lose your ship and ocasional pod.
dalman Finite Auxiliary	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:47:00 - [81] How can the death penalty be too high? Loss of a tech2 fitted battleship = ~100M Loss of a tech1 fitted battleship = ~40M Approx isk per hour you make from PvE grinding = ~20M (regardless of what way you choose). So, 2 hours of PvE to finance a T1 fitted BS. 5 hours to finance a T2 fitted BS. If anything, the death penalty in EVE is way too low. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Max Godsnottlingson	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:48:00 - [82] To the OP NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOT EVER! Oh did I say no Talking as somebody who is more often on the getting killed side of Eve then killing. So long as you don't put a ship you can't afford to loose in danger, or pack all your Evely goods and wealth in that ship getting killed isn't that bad, for me that is, perhaps for a 3 yo character a new clone might make your eyes water a bit when paying for a new one. Death in Eve is one of the things that makes Eve such a buzz, especially as in my case when I can successfully avoid it after getting 'bounced' by pirates. The last thing we need is Eve death turning into a none event like in games such as Planetside
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:49:00 - [83] Yes, lets make everything fully insureable, so pilots never really lose any isk in pvp. At least that way, they have more isk for when they get scammed out of all their cash! I love EVE. -- NEW Vid: Domi For the Win!
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:56:00 - [84] Eve-death still is rather mild. You only loose a clone and you're ship. And even without a clone you'd only loose level from one lvl 5 skill. I've played a MUD who gave a 10% skillpoint penalty when you died. And you're inventory including wallet was up for the grabs as well. And lag death was way more common that with Eve nowadays. Or you got PK'ed 3 times a day.
Pete Stalker Fortress of Extermination	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:57:00 - [85] Well, let's take a look at your suggestion to insure your fitting and compare it to the insurance of the ships. A normal t1 frig costs about 200k. It can be insured to 100%, so you get about 200k back when you die. A t2 frig costs about 10-20mil. It can be insured - ofc - to 100%, and if you die you get a few mil back. A "named" (faction) frig costs you about 20-100mil. It can be insured to 100% aswell, tho you get only 200-500k back when you die (never flew a faction ship so I dont know the real numbers). So you can only insure the costs to build a ship. If you want to insure your modules you have to do it the same way... A Small Shield booster t1 costs you about 20k. If you would insure it, you would get 20k back. A Small Shield booster t2 costs about 200-500k. Again, if you'd insure it you would maybe get 50k back, for the extra building costs. A Gistii booster will cost you about 100mil or more. 100% insured you would get back... right, 20k. So? Of course you could insure your fittings, but the really expensiv Mods aren't so expensiv because they are difficult to build. They are so expensiv because they are a) rare b) "most wanted items". Let's say you insure a t1 fitted frig and loose it - maybe you get back 50k more than without the "new module insurance". But - if you loose a t2 fitted interceptor you'd still lose 20 mil. So no, this won't change anything. ______________________ o rly?
Big Al Roving Band of Bunnies	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:10:00 - [86] If they removed the death penalty a lot more people would play the game, the server would crash more often, and the vets would quit. Sounds like a good plan!
TZeer Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:14:00 - [87] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Edited by: Hectaire Glade on 04/09/2006 09:39:29 I'm not saying remove all loss, I'm saying cap the loss, financially. You are aware of insurances right? T1 ship 100% insured fitted with T1 mods or named ones that u have gotten from ratting wont set u back much.
Gunship Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:17:00 - [88] Only reason I play eve is that it's hurts to die. Even the riches playes in eve don't like when his titan goes down or his outpost has been taken over. Dont change the one thing that makes eve stand out! So you want to join us?
Resetgun Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:27:00 - [89] No! I am big old carebear myself, but I understand PvP is essential part of game. Cost of dead is reason that keeps economy going on. "As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire
thoth foc Destructive Influence	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:54:00 - [90] a fix to the over inflated t2 markets would be better tbh >: )
Neon Genesis Gallente Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:21:00 - [91] It was said earlier on, but the reason alot of us play is specifically because of the death penalty.
RedLion Caldari Gloria Victis	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:48:00 - [92] I don't mind the death penalty, however, for me as a noob, I don't wanna lose my implants too :( Also it would be cool if you insure your modules too.
Jastra Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:12:00 - [93] Edited by: Jastra on 04/09/2006 14:13:47 the risk reward balance in this game is perfect, not a one thing needs changing in that regard, it is and remains one of the most interesting and most perfectly implemented parts of the game, I love living in lowsec, this game is dishwater dull if you stay in high sec empire, no matter what you enjoy doing.
TZeer Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:47:00 - [94] Originally by: RedLion I don't mind the death penalty, however, for me as a noob, I don't wanna lose my implants too :( Also it would be cool if you insure your modules too. Use a clone.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:52:00 - [95] Originally by: RedLion I don't mind the death penalty, however, for me as a noob, I don't wanna lose my implants too :( Also it would be cool if you insure your modules too. Then either use a clone or don't use implants. I, personally, don't use implants and I'm not missing them at all. And also, the insurance covers 100% of any T1 ship. If you fit it with cheap modules, the loss is minimal. Losing T2 staff should be painfull, probably not as painfull as it's now, due to overinflated T2 prices, but T2 was never invented as the mainstream technology.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:58:00 - [96] you make me want to shoot myself in the face. perhaps the only reason i (and many others) play eve is precisely because its the last game where death has some real teeth and both risks as well as rewards are tangible. put the pipe down.
Rangkai	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:04:00 - [97] The cost of death is the ONLY reason I play Eve. Nothing gets your heart going faster than being in a fight and knowing that months of hard work could be on the line for both players. If there was no cost of death.. there would be no point in even fighting..
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:49:00 - [98] 1. no 2. go play wow 3. 90% live in empire? you have never visited 0.0 clearly... 4. go play wow 5. mod's please lock this thread and all other "lets make eve like wow" threads 6. (insert the ownerers auto reply to emails here - starts with "you are a...")
Kharriga Caldari The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:56:00 - [99] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Having played an awful lot of MMPORGs over the years I think EVEs only major problem is the cost of death. Having played a few MMPORGs over the years I think EVEs biggest + and in general the thing that separates it from other MMORPGs is the cost of death. The death cost makes you think twice, it makes you use youre brain, makes you play the game fully. For me its the best part of the game.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:57:00 - [100] I think there is just not enough encouragement early on for newer people to go into low sec and explore 0.0 I had played almost 18months before I ventured out to 0.0. Low sec was much sooner. If there is some way to get newer people to visit these places and maybe not ganked in the first five minutes then perhaps they will go back and maybe even stay _______ http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd
Minikrimi Extreme Caldari Kimotoro Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:16:00 - [101] Edited by: Minikrimi Extreme on 04/09/2006 16:17:43 I like Empire space. I have flown (in the past on different accounts) with several corps which engage in Empire war. Check the map sometime-- the Amarr system tends to feature more ship deaths than any other due to the rp wars that engulf Imperial politics. You know why you'll never get me out of Empire space? I like the rp between the established Empires. I don't really give a rat's ass about the here-today-gone-tomorrow player-built houses of cards. I like mentoring new players. I like chatting with fellow mission runners and miners, and always working with a different group. I like having stations around and active markets. You seem to feel that pvp only happens in 0.0. Well, Empire wars can be pretty damned bad. You are in systems with dozens or hundreds of neutrals, if the overview bug strikes you might accidentally target a neutral and CONCORD teaches you a lesson about proper buddy list management (target only those in your addressbook). You can be attacked from out of the blue every time you go to restock on new gear in a major trade hub. There is no region to control-- you can't put in bubbles to catch marauders who target your industry. If anything, it's a lot deadlier and rougher than 0.0 pvp. There is no real respite while you have an Empire War active. And the only way to catch a break is if you can persuade your opponent to rescind the war. Locater agents can make it virtually impossible to relocate effectively. Tell me again why 0.0 is so hard core pvp. I see fortress-like regions with bubble-camped pipeline systems, well-delineated territories, a paucity of neutrals, and ready reinforcements at your disposal in the case of emergency, all with access to 8/10 complexes, Crock and Bist and Ark, named officer rats, etc. If you like to utterly dominate the landscape and fashion it to your liking, then 0.0 is fine. But don't tell me that people stay in Empire because they are afraid of losing their ships, because the death penalty is too high. There is all of the risk and very little of the reward in Empire space. We remember the Morning of Reason with pride, and the Raata Empire with its lessons in the true meaning of power. And we look forward to the day when Caldari Prime, our homeland, is redeemed, and it
Zulak	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:27:00 - [102] 4 pages post flaming the op to death, as soon as I saw his post I knew this is coming. At any rate, I think the problem is that Eve online is about the only space combat sci-fi mmo out right now, this attracts a lot of fans who likes star trek, starwars, BSG, etc but don't nessarily love to pvp. So in other words, those people love EVE's sci-fi space flight background but don't like pvp. The real come-through should be when another sci-fi space mmo shows up such as STO and you will see a lot of those people migrating, so I guess that's good news for the pvp'er as the game won't be so laggy, but forcing someone to go into pvp by moving mission agent to low sec will just make a lot of people quit the game. To be honest though, I don't know how anyone thinks eve's death penalty is hardcore when there is at least clone to protect your sp, insurance for t1 ships. there are many other games with the same if more punishing pvp death penalties, lineage 2, shadowbane, ac1, uo came to mind, oh of course the only real hardcore dp i have seen is playing on diablo2's hardcore server where death means permanent death to your character. saying you are in 0.0 doesn't really mean much, if you are in a big alliance, you can mine/rat in controlled regions all you want with little to no risk, in fact, it is actually easier than a lot of missions. that doesn't seem to have the whole rewarding vs. risk ratio everyone seems to care so much about, neither is running around with 40 men blob, sniping people from noob corp without insta at 200 km or 5 on 1 on a supposed duel. death penalty in eve serves the purpose to get the economy going. empire probably serves the purpose as a economic backbone, but who cares about economy, this is pvp right? so if ccp really wants a full pvp game as everyone agreed it should be, why don't they just remove empires and make all space conquerable like in shadowbane instead of trying so hard baiting empire dwellers to go to low sec? eve is obviously still not hardcore enough. ccp should do something asap.
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:30:00 - [103] Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme stuff in empire you can't lose the station you base out of.... in 0.0 one day you undock then find you can't dock there anymore.... just a slight problem. empire wars have their place and they are fun but as for "harshness" they do not compare at all to 0.0. In an empire war if i don't want to fight i jump in an inty and no one and nothing can stop me going wherever i want. Can't say the same about 0.0 with dictors and bubbles.
mechtech	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:34:00 - [104] no. you can already do a ton of damage with a 15 mil interceptor setup. Its not a playground for the rich, its just that people are to scared to try 0.0 out and learn how to survive there. Its not a place to be solo, you need a corp. A noob in a corp can have a ton of fun in 0.0 as it is now.
Leverton Caldari Research Associates	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:49:00 - [105] I have to disagree with the OP. That's why this game is fun; there is an ACTUAL penalty if you get blown up. It's no fun if there's no risk involved. The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force. Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus kekekekekekekeke - Immy
Minikrimi Extreme Caldari Kimotoro Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:54:00 - [106] Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme stuff in empire you can't lose the station you base out of.... in 0.0 one day you undock then find you can't dock there anymore.... just a slight problem. empire wars have their place and they are fun but as for "harshness" they do not compare at all to 0.0. In an empire war if i don't want to fight i jump in an inty and no one and nothing can stop me going wherever i want. Can't say the same about 0.0 with dictors and bubbles. But the main point I was trying to make (perhaps I failed) was that the death penalty is just as high or even higher in Empire than it is in 0.0. And having participated in both 0.0 and Empire wars on previous accounts, my opinion is that 0.0 wars are like the old-style "line them up in big orderly ranks" while Empire wars are ambushes and surprise attacks and "OMG they're EVERYWHERE!!!!" experiences. You can't effectively see blobs coming in Empire on the map. And yeah, you might get out in an inty, but battleships still effectively snipe small ships. And there's little to fight over except Veldspar and Scordite and one another's modules. And yet hundreds of people do it, perhaps thousands if you add in those not in rp corps but engage in Empire war. The point is that there are reasons not to go into 0.0-- it caters to certain people, but others, no. I've tried it several times and simply don't like it. Give me the hustle and bustle of Empire, the hide-and-seek nature of Empire based pvp, the thrill of escaping (or killing) a lowsec pirate, the market wars, the rp based on the backstory. Take away the death penalty and you render most pvp pointless. There is no economic victory-- you win when the other guys quit out of boredom of dying. One of the big problems with getting rid of the death penalty is loot. If I have millions of ISK worth of mods and I lose them in combat, they are either destroyed or looted. If I get them back, then either there is no can to loot, or there is now an extra set of high-end named mods floating around. Why not just have a buddy attack you just for the uber loot you drop? You just split the insurance cost, and both of you get a set of your equipped modules. If on the other hand looting other players is removed then a huge part of Eve's player culture is removed as well.
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:31:00 - [107] Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme stuff in empire you can't lose the station you base out of.... in 0.0 one day you undock then find you can't dock there anymore.... just a slight problem. empire wars have their place and they are fun but as for "harshness" they do not compare at all to 0.0. In an empire war if i don't want to fight i jump in an inty and no one and nothing can stop me going wherever i want. Can't say the same about 0.0 with dictors and bubbles. But the main point I was trying to make (perhaps I failed) was that the death penalty is just as high or even higher in Empire than it is in 0.0. And having participated in both 0.0 and Empire wars on previous accounts, my opinion is that 0.0 wars are like the old-style "line them up in big orderly ranks" while Empire wars are ambushes and surprise attacks and "OMG they're EVERYWHERE!!!!" experiences. You can't effectively see blobs coming in Empire on the map. And yeah, you might get out in an inty, but battleships still effectively snipe small ships. And there's little to fight over except Veldspar and Scordite and one another's modules. And yet hundreds of people do it, perhaps thousands if you add in those not in rp corps but engage in Empire war. The point is that there are reasons not to go into 0.0-- it caters to certain people, but others, no. I've tried it several times and simply don't like it. Give me the hustle and bustle of Empire, the hide-and-seek nature of Empire based pvp, the thrill of escaping (or killing) a lowsec pirate, the market wars, the rp based on the backstory. Take away the death penalty and you render most pvp pointless. There is no economic victory-- you win when the other guys quit out of boredom of dying. One of the big problems with getting rid of the death penalty is loot. If I have millions of ISK worth of mods and I lose them in combat, they are either destroyed or looted. If I get them back, then either there is no can to loot, or there is now an extra set of high-end named mods floating around. Why not just have a buddy attack you just for the uber loot you drop? You just split the insurance cost, and both of you get a set of your equipped modules. If on the other hand looting other players is removed then a huge part of Eve's player culture is removed as well. A huge part of Eve's playerbase is also removed. Take away the death penalty and pvp becomes completely useless. It really isn't hard to stay alive anywhere, and really isn't hard to kill the people coming after you, you just have to be smart about it.
Oodlebang Slipslop	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:51:00 - [108] Hi Baldour :) The main problem with pvp in EvE is the transition. Which I beleive is why CCP are making faction warfare. Takes a fair few fights to get the hang of it. But once you have turned from easy level to hard you won't turn back. This doesn't mean being attacked by ebil piwates in low sec. It means actually going out in small groups looking for a fight.

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