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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
PhamNuwen Caldari Bungee Jumper	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:38:00 - [1] - 5 BM limit - The next consequence will be usage of macros for copy BMs. Most of us are sure, that CCP is is doing nobody against macro-miners... - why we should have a difference? Now back to the topic: - increase your database - extend your itemId to 64 bit - enable BLOCK-COPY for BMs (ONE transaction for an unlimited amount of BMs) ==> you help use, we help you ---
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:44:00 - [2] I have WAY better idea: Remove ALL bms on the same grid as gates and stations, and then: Add an option "warp to 0km" but ONLY usable when manually controlling ship - autopilot will still warp at 15km. It will effectively give everyone instas (and manual control will be still needed) but remove the necessit of holding and copying thousands of BMs. The variation of this one: warp to 0km only usable from station/gate to station/gate.
Ikvar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.12 17:45:00 - [3] How about don't nerf things that are integral to playing the game without implementing a working system to replace them?
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.12 18:34:00 - [4] Ikvar - didnt i just show the working system that could be used instead of BMs? It is exactly same thing as it is now, except for that EVERYONE will be able to use "instas" without need of buying/copying them.
Alpine 69 Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.12 20:37:00 - [5] removing station/gate grid bms would be damn killing eve, how could we snipe at gates, or we would just warp to a bm 1km onto other grid and warp to that at 100 so it just doent make sense to remove that
Gort Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.12 20:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Deva Blackfire I have WAY better idea: Remove ALL bms on the same grid as gates and stations, and then: Add an option "warp to 0km" but ONLY usable when manually controlling ship - autopilot will still warp at 15km. It will effectively give everyone instas (and manual control will be still needed) but remove the necessit of holding and copying thousands of BMs. The variation of this one: warp to 0km only usable from station/gate to station/gate. Signed. Sniping is for woosies. Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.12 22:32:00 - [7] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/09/2006 22:34:03 Originally by: Alpine 69 removing station/gate grid bms would be damn killing eve, how could we snipe at gates, or we would just warp to a bm 1km onto other grid and warp to that at 100 so it just doent make sense to remove that I was thinking abt one-time clearing of BMs (to remove all of them). Sth like start from zero, but ppl wouldnt need to create instas (so only tactical BMs would be left). This would also remove old deep safes. The only problem i see with this atm: some ppl would lose safespotted ships, because of "i didnt know it was coming". EDIT: i tought abt it again for a bit. Leave old BMs, add "warp to 0km" usable only on manual control. Everyone would get free "instas" so no more copying, old instas/safes/tactical BMs remain. Sooner or later ppl will delete instas clogging the "people and places" folder.
Grytok	Posted - 2006.09.13 05:40:00 - [8] I would like to see the "warp to 0km"-feature as well instead of having thousands of BMs copied all the time. And having deleted only all the Station/Gate->Gate/Station BMs should not be that hard. Just delete all the BMs within 20km around a Gate/Station. I'm sure a simple macro would do this job automatically by comparing the X/Y/Z coordinates. So please CCP, think of this quiet simple solution
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.13 07:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Grytok And having deleted only all the Station/Gate->Gate/Station BMs should not be that hard. Just delete all the BMs within 20km around a Gate/Station. I'm sure a simple macro would do this job automatically by comparing the X/Y/Z coordinates. Won't work. We'd just move to 30km (80km, 100km...) insta bookmarks. The only way is to abort warp if it would land you wihin 1 to say 5 km of the stargate. You can't tell insta bookmarks apart from sniping ones. ------ No ISK, no fun
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 08:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Originally by: Grytok And having deleted only all the Station/Gate->Gate/Station BMs should not be that hard. Just delete all the BMs within 20km around a Gate/Station. I'm sure a simple macro would do this job automatically by comparing the X/Y/Z coordinates. Won't work. We'd just move to 30km (80km, 100km...) insta bookmarks. The only way is to abort warp if it would land you wihin 1 to say 5 km of the stargate. You can't tell insta bookmarks apart from sniping ones. And just why would people redo BMs that would now be supplied by the right click menu?
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 13:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub EDIT: bah, didn't notice that Grytok is proposing to add 0 km warp and BM deletion together. Yeah - thats my point as well. BMs are part of this game and removing em carelessly would be stupid. But if we get another system instead of them (like "warp to 0") it would be no prob to remove all "insta" bms leaving only safes/tactical ones. Dunno the real numbers but i can safetly guess that 95%+ BMs are instas only.
Cazor Rodiac Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.13 14:52:00 - [12] I also remember there was once talk about having some sort of "accuracy" training for warping to the gates. Your ship would land on gate (0km bm) but would loose some accuracy, so if you jump to gate again, it will land not exactly on gate. Ofcourse this "accuracy" regenerates itself (like shield) and you can train skills to manage this. If you do this, there is only need for BM'ing your safespots and snipespots. Also, not everybody has acces to good warping accuracy, so veteran players are more in the advantage. And, last but not least: it will make pvp a lot more interesting...
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Cazor Rodiac I also remember there was once talk about having some sort of "accuracy" training for warping to the gates. Your ship would land on gate (0km bm) but would loose some accuracy, so if you jump to gate again, it will land not exactly on gate. Ofcourse this "accuracy" regenerates itself (like shield) and you can train skills to manage this. If you do this, there is only need for BM'ing your safespots and snipespots. Also, not everybody has acces to good warping accuracy, so veteran players are more in the advantage. And, last but not least: it will make pvp a lot more interesting... No, no more skills that you NEED to train to lvl5 before you can play. If you want to add sth that replaces instas (no skills needed for BMs) then let it be also no-skill needed system.
Ikvar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Ikvar - didnt i just show the working system that could be used instead of BMs? It is exactly same thing as it is now, except for that EVERYONE will be able to use "instas" without need of buying/copying them. Yes, but the thing is they already nerfed the **** out of instas without replacing it. How about, you can buy something off an NPC like a skill book that has like 1 level and takes a short amount of time to train etc for each region, price depending on the size of the region and if it's empire/0.0 or not. Once you've bought this and used it then a 'warp to 0km' option is added for you in that region, but the lowest default range is 15km so you can't AP on it.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:47:00 - [15] Also a good idea :) Only a variation abt "warp to 0" but including ISK sink. On the other hand those "instas" would need to be fairly price balanced.
XoPhyte Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:16:00 - [16] Edited by: XoPhyte on 13/09/2006 21:18:09 Edited by: XoPhyte on 13/09/2006 21:17:55 Honestly this has been discussed at length for years now. I have yet to see a viable solution from both sides of the argument. The fact is that bm's make it very difficult to kill any hostiles, and implenting a 0km solution would simply nerf piracy. CCP implemented the 5 bookmark limit to... 1) general reduce lag from everybody copying hundreds of bookmarks at a time. 2) People copying bookmarks in their ships while in battle so as to create lag. The fact is I am very happy that this limit was implemented (so you have to spend more time copying your bookmarks, so what?). Also I have seen a significant reduction that used to exist due to these "lag tactics" (some do remain though . My only request would be to make bookmarks something like 50 m3 in size so you can only carry a certain amount on your ship. Everybody comes up with these solutions but they only address 1 side of the argument. I honestly do not know what else CCP could have done to address this issue other then do what they have done. So before you come up with another "This is the ultimate bookmark idea" please make sure that your idea.. 1) reduces the amount of time it takes to move to the gate 2) Makes it where it is not nearly impossible to catch hostiles with instas in your own terrritory. I hope Kali and controlling gates will fix this issue once and for all. Perhaps at that time they can introduce a 0km option all while allowing us to lock down gates in territory that we control.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.14 05:32:00 - [17] Originally by: XoPhyte 1) reduces the amount of time it takes to move to the gate 2) Makes it where it is not nearly impossible to catch hostiles with instas in your own terrritory. 1. Check (everyone gets instas - there is no faster way of treavel) 2. Check (it is same as using normal instas) And btw: points 1 and 2 contradict themselves. If you travel faster then you are less prone to being caught and vice versa. You cant eat cake and have cake unfortunately. As for catching hostiles - being in ASCN i tought you know how interdictors/mobile bubbles work. And they DO stop enemy movement. There are no hostiles in the north that travel with "Warp to 15" - all of them use instas. And still point nr2 is moot cause it is pretty easy to counter them with bubbles and spheres. Only place which will suffer is lowsec gate snipers - but all in all they will only lose some kills against nubs that still dont have money to buy proper BMs. For me its not a big loss when "yarr im so uber pirate sniper" kills 2 shuttles a day instead of 5.
Stormhold FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.14 06:12:00 - [18] Edited by: Stormhold on 14/09/2006 06:12:43 Whatever the solution is it should not be a skill which everyone has to train. Learning skills are very stupid already, everyone should just start with lvl 4 adv. learnings tbh. We don't need an another (basically) obligatory set of skills.
DaReaper Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.09.14 07:03:00 - [19] something i don;t get is why the issue with them adding a skill fix instead of BM's? Whats the issue? you don;t want to waste a few days training another skill? you;d rather waste hours gathering bm's or spend millions of isk buying regional BM's? or heck, spend a few days making them yourself? honestly here it;s the same darn thing. If you want to use BM's you watse time and money either making them or buying them. A skill fix that allows you to warp closer to an object at each level is the same thing, and once you have it trained tot he lvl you want your done. Logic says this is easyer.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.14 15:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Stormhold Edited by: Stormhold on 14/09/2006 06:12:43 Whatever the solution is it should not be a skill which everyone has to train. Learning skills are very stupid already, everyone should just start with lvl 4 adv. learnings tbh. We don't need an another (basically) obligatory set of skills. tbh what is not obligatory? should all our engineering skill be 5? what about electronics? hell navigation would be nice too... why don't they just remove every skill that doesn't have to do with how we tank or what we shoot with? sorry - this is argument have been getting on Weirda nerve a long time (about obligatory skill). OF COURSE THERE ARE OBLIGATORY SKILLS!!!! New pilot should be in gang with experienced pilot if they are flying through 0.0... etc... regardless - would love to see them (in no particular order): a) remove gate/gate bm alltogether b) make corp/alliance bm (sharable) c) make bm copy facility (like manufacturing) d) make bm attribute "original/copy" e) you can only copy "originals" (yeah, you'd better do the intel youself or know someone who did) Weirda could give a crap if any/all the above hurt the "BM Industry". there should be no industry around that - it is sad. There was a day before people started mass copying/selling those thing where you had BM's you made yourself for areas that you lived/travelled. Now every carebear and his mother who never leave Jita have 14000+ BM that they will never use because they think they need to. Oh - and make a skill too - if you want to be better at something, train it. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
Himo Amasacia Minmatar Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.09.14 16:50:00 - [21] Either give a warp to 0 option OR move all the BMs storage to the CLIENT rater than the SERVER. Ither will reduce stress on the server and sicne BMs are more or less static there is little need for them to be on the server anyway.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.14 18:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Himo Amasacia Either give a warp to 0 option OR move all the BMs storage to the CLIENT rater than the SERVER. Ither will reduce stress on the server and sicne BMs are more or less static there is little need for them to be on the server anyway. Moving BMs to client is IMO impossible. Anything you store on your HDD can be accessed sooner or later and changed (ie: cheating) :/
Eralus	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:27:00 - [23] Originally by: XoPhyte The fact is that bm's make it very difficult to kill any hostiles, and implenting a 0km solution would simply nerf piracy. That's not a fact, that's a lie. If Warp to 0 would nerf piracy, piracy would already be nerfed because bookmarks already let people warp-to-0. The only thing nerfed by warp-to-0 is "shoot newbies without bookmarks". That is a small price to pay for getting rid of BM lag. Hell, you could argue that nerfing that would be a good thing in-and-of-itself. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Eralus	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Himo Amasacia Either give a warp to 0 option OR move all the BMs storage to the CLIENT rater than the SERVER. That's the same thing. Once you put them on the client, they can be editted, and very quickly someone will put together a file of all bookmarks that gets passed around on the internet, giving everyone warp-to-0. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.

BH Runner ISD BH Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:52:00 - [25] Originally by: PhamNuwen Edited by: PhamNuwen on 13/09/2006 05:43:52 - 5 BM limit - The next consequence will be usage of macros for copy BMs. Most of us are sure, that CCP is doing nothing against macro-miners... - why we should have a difference? Just to be very clear. Macros are illegal, the use of such will result in a ban. Don't discuss using illegal game methods again. [Bug Report Here] - [Contact Us]

Rhuu Gallente Es and Whizz	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Weirda regardless - would love to see them (in no particular order): a) remove gate/gate bm alltogether b) make corp/alliance bm (sharable) c) make bm copy facility (like manufacturing) d) make bm attribute "original/copy" e) you can only copy "originals" (yeah, you'd better do the intel youself or know someone who did) f) Start making the planets and moons (slowly) orbit larger celestial bodies. Leave the bookmarks at absolute points in space. Maybe include a stellar cartography skill to allow for the prediction of relative to other objects in space.
Cyril Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.14 20:04:00 - [27] I think everyone is looking at this from the wrong side. The bookmark in your places list can't be that complicated of a data object. Name, region, constilation, system, x, y, z Without knowing more about how exactly CCP coded these its all speculation. But I think the issue is in creating the bookmark object in your cargo/hanger. Try it some time: put 400BMs in a folder in places and the same 400 in your hanger, close both, open them back up and see what loads first. So I say junk that all together. They should just add a "send bookmark" option on indivituals and folders which then creates a link to the BM. Everyone knows that there are only a few sets of instas for any given system and there are just a LOT of copies. If everyone's BMs just pointed to a master how could that not improve the system? I know limiting it to 5 at a time was a lot less work then totally redoing the system but just think: You have a folder named "Trade route A" with 225 BMs in it that you need to send to a new alt you just created. Rather then 3 actions; create BM object, trade BM object, import BM object into places; it just creates a link. Enclude a link count in the BM object's field and only destroy the master if all copies are destroyed. Sure there are going to be some problems, but it can't be as ugly as the current system.
Reachok Amarr Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.09.14 22:25:00 - [28] No no no!! First, create the warp to 0 option, applicable to gates and stations. After a week or two to establish it's viability (no crashing caused by it), announce a "server wide bookmark wipe day". All bookmarks all gone with the exception of allowing the creation of bookmarks only in belts. Finally, after the scan probes are fixed (allowing spherical and not plane-like scanning) allow the creation of safe spots again. Stations and gates would remain a bookmark free zone. Also, leave the current 15 kilometer autopilot warp to gate, making the warp to 0 option manual only. I had originally advocated a new Navigation skill, but after reading the reasons why this is a bad idea, I now agree. It would be a bad idea. As stated above a skill would be n00b detrimental. Where as the warp to 0 option is instantly available to new players and veterans alike. Pirates and non-pirates alike have the tools to stop ships at gates for that ganking gratification craved by many . In 0.0, the non bm zone near gates "sniper spot limitation" is overcome by interceptors and "warp to gang member" (also usable by pirate corps in low-sec). Safe spots are exchanged for cloaking devices until the scan probes are fixed. Lastly, server lag is wiped out with regards to bookmark copying. And because someone will obviously copy prodigious amounts of belt bookmarks to fill cans to induce lag, leave the 5 bookmark limit in place. To at least slow them down .
XoPhyte Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.15 01:00:00 - [29] Edited by: XoPhyte on 15/09/2006 01:05:48
DaReaper Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.09.15 02:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Reachok No no no!! First, create the warp to 0 option, applicable to gates and stations. After a week or two to establish it's viability (no crashing caused by it), announce a "server wide bookmark wipe day". All bookmarks all gone with the exception of allowing the creation of bookmarks only in belts. Finally, after the scan probes are fixed (allowing spherical and not plane-like scanning) allow the creation of safe spots again. Stations and gates would remain a bookmark free zone. Also, leave the current 15 kilometer autopilot warp to gate, making the warp to 0 option manual only. I had originally advocated a new Navigation skill, but after reading the reasons why this is a bad idea, I now agree. It would be a bad idea. As stated above a skill would be n00b detrimental. Where as the warp to 0 option is instantly available to new players and veterans alike. Pirates and non-pirates alike have the tools to stop ships at gates for that ganking gratification craved by many . In 0.0, the non bm zone near gates "sniper spot limitation" is overcome by interceptors and "warp to gang member" (also usable by pirate corps in low-sec). Safe spots are exchanged for cloaking devices until the scan probes are fixed. Lastly, server lag is wiped out with regards to bookmark copying. And because someone will obviously copy prodigious amounts of belt bookmarks to fill cans to induce lag, leave the 5 bookmark limit in place. To at least slow them down . and spending time making BM's is not noob deterent?

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