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PhamNuwen Caldari Bungee Jumper	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:38:00 - [1] - 5 BM limit - The next consequence will be usage of macros for copy BMs. Most of us are sure, that CCP is is doing nobody against macro-miners... - why we should have a difference? Now back to the topic: - increase your database - extend your itemId to 64 bit - enable BLOCK-COPY for BMs (ONE transaction for an unlimited amount of BMs) ==> you help use, we help you ---
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:44:00 - [2] I have WAY better idea: Remove ALL bms on the same grid as gates and stations, and then: Add an option "warp to 0km" but ONLY usable when manually controlling ship - autopilot will still warp at 15km. It will effectively give everyone instas (and manual control will be still needed) but remove the necessit of holding and copying thousands of BMs. The variation of this one: warp to 0km only usable from station/gate to station/gate.
Ikvar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.12 17:45:00 - [3] How about don't nerf things that are integral to playing the game without implementing a working system to replace them?
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.12 18:34:00 - [4] Ikvar - didnt i just show the working system that could be used instead of BMs? It is exactly same thing as it is now, except for that EVERYONE will be able to use "instas" without need of buying/copying them.
Alpine 69 Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.12 20:37:00 - [5] removing station/gate grid bms would be damn killing eve, how could we snipe at gates, or we would just warp to a bm 1km onto other grid and warp to that at 100 so it just doent make sense to remove that
Gort Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.12 20:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Deva Blackfire I have WAY better idea: Remove ALL bms on the same grid as gates and stations, and then: Add an option "warp to 0km" but ONLY usable when manually controlling ship - autopilot will still warp at 15km. It will effectively give everyone instas (and manual control will be still needed) but remove the necessit of holding and copying thousands of BMs. The variation of this one: warp to 0km only usable from station/gate to station/gate. Signed. Sniping is for woosies. Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.12 22:32:00 - [7] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/09/2006 22:34:03 Originally by: Alpine 69 removing station/gate grid bms would be damn killing eve, how could we snipe at gates, or we would just warp to a bm 1km onto other grid and warp to that at 100 so it just doent make sense to remove that I was thinking abt one-time clearing of BMs (to remove all of them). Sth like start from zero, but ppl wouldnt need to create instas (so only tactical BMs would be left). This would also remove old deep safes. The only problem i see with this atm: some ppl would lose safespotted ships, because of "i didnt know it was coming". EDIT: i tought abt it again for a bit. Leave old BMs, add "warp to 0km" usable only on manual control. Everyone would get free "instas" so no more copying, old instas/safes/tactical BMs remain. Sooner or later ppl will delete instas clogging the "people and places" folder.
Grytok	Posted - 2006.09.13 05:40:00 - [8] I would like to see the "warp to 0km"-feature as well instead of having thousands of BMs copied all the time. And having deleted only all the Station/Gate->Gate/Station BMs should not be that hard. Just delete all the BMs within 20km around a Gate/Station. I'm sure a simple macro would do this job automatically by comparing the X/Y/Z coordinates. So please CCP, think of this quiet simple solution
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.13 07:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Grytok And having deleted only all the Station/Gate->Gate/Station BMs should not be that hard. Just delete all the BMs within 20km around a Gate/Station. I'm sure a simple macro would do this job automatically by comparing the X/Y/Z coordinates. Won't work. We'd just move to 30km (80km, 100km...) insta bookmarks. The only way is to abort warp if it would land you wihin 1 to say 5 km of the stargate. You can't tell insta bookmarks apart from sniping ones. ------ No ISK, no fun
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 08:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Originally by: Grytok And having deleted only all the Station/Gate->Gate/Station BMs should not be that hard. Just delete all the BMs within 20km around a Gate/Station. I'm sure a simple macro would do this job automatically by comparing the X/Y/Z coordinates. Won't work. We'd just move to 30km (80km, 100km...) insta bookmarks. The only way is to abort warp if it would land you wihin 1 to say 5 km of the stargate. You can't tell insta bookmarks apart from sniping ones. And just why would people redo BMs that would now be supplied by the right click menu?
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 13:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub EDIT: bah, didn't notice that Grytok is proposing to add 0 km warp and BM deletion together. Yeah - thats my point as well. BMs are part of this game and removing em carelessly would be stupid. But if we get another system instead of them (like "warp to 0") it would be no prob to remove all "insta" bms leaving only safes/tactical ones. Dunno the real numbers but i can safetly guess that 95%+ BMs are instas only.
Cazor Rodiac Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.13 14:52:00 - [12] I also remember there was once talk about having some sort of "accuracy" training for warping to the gates. Your ship would land on gate (0km bm) but would loose some accuracy, so if you jump to gate again, it will land not exactly on gate. Ofcourse this "accuracy" regenerates itself (like shield) and you can train skills to manage this. If you do this, there is only need for BM'ing your safespots and snipespots. Also, not everybody has acces to good warping accuracy, so veteran players are more in the advantage. And, last but not least: it will make pvp a lot more interesting...
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Cazor Rodiac I also remember there was once talk about having some sort of "accuracy" training for warping to the gates. Your ship would land on gate (0km bm) but would loose some accuracy, so if you jump to gate again, it will land not exactly on gate. Ofcourse this "accuracy" regenerates itself (like shield) and you can train skills to manage this. If you do this, there is only need for BM'ing your safespots and snipespots. Also, not everybody has acces to good warping accuracy, so veteran players are more in the advantage. And, last but not least: it will make pvp a lot more interesting... No, no more skills that you NEED to train to lvl5 before you can play. If you want to add sth that replaces instas (no skills needed for BMs) then let it be also no-skill needed system.
Ikvar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Ikvar - didnt i just show the working system that could be used instead of BMs? It is exactly same thing as it is now, except for that EVERYONE will be able to use "instas" without need of buying/copying them. Yes, but the thing is they already nerfed the **** out of instas without replacing it. How about, you can buy something off an NPC like a skill book that has like 1 level and takes a short amount of time to train etc for each region, price depending on the size of the region and if it's empire/0.0 or not. Once you've bought this and used it then a 'warp to 0km' option is added for you in that region, but the lowest default range is 15km so you can't AP on it.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:47:00 - [15] Also a good idea :) Only a variation abt "warp to 0" but including ISK sink. On the other hand those "instas" would need to be fairly price balanced.
XoPhyte Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:16:00 - [16] Edited by: XoPhyte on 13/09/2006 21:18:09 Edited by: XoPhyte on 13/09/2006 21:17:55 Honestly this has been discussed at length for years now. I have yet to see a viable solution from both sides of the argument. The fact is that bm's make it very difficult to kill any hostiles, and implenting a 0km solution would simply nerf piracy. CCP implemented the 5 bookmark limit to... 1) general reduce lag from everybody copying hundreds of bookmarks at a time. 2) People copying bookmarks in their ships while in battle so as to create lag. The fact is I am very happy that this limit was implemented (so you have to spend more time copying your bookmarks, so what?). Also I have seen a significant reduction that used to exist due to these "lag tactics" (some do remain though . My only request would be to make bookmarks something like 50 m3 in size so you can only carry a certain amount on your ship. Everybody comes up with these solutions but they only address 1 side of the argument. I honestly do not know what else CCP could have done to address this issue other then do what they have done. So before you come up with another "This is the ultimate bookmark idea" please make sure that your idea.. 1) reduces the amount of time it takes to move to the gate 2) Makes it where it is not nearly impossible to catch hostiles with instas in your own terrritory. I hope Kali and controlling gates will fix this issue once and for all. Perhaps at that time they can introduce a 0km option all while allowing us to lock down gates in territory that we control.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.14 05:32:00 - [17] Originally by: XoPhyte 1) reduces the amount of time it takes to move to the gate 2) Makes it where it is not nearly impossible to catch hostiles with instas in your own terrritory. 1. Check (everyone gets instas - there is no faster way of treavel) 2. Check (it is same as using normal instas) And btw: points 1 and 2 contradict themselves. If you travel faster then you are less prone to being caught and vice versa. You cant eat cake and have cake unfortunately. As for catching hostiles - being in ASCN i tought you know how interdictors/mobile bubbles work. And they DO stop enemy movement. There are no hostiles in the north that travel with "Warp to 15" - all of them use instas. And still point nr2 is moot cause it is pretty easy to counter them with bubbles and spheres. Only place which will suffer is lowsec gate snipers - but all in all they will only lose some kills against nubs that still dont have money to buy proper BMs. For me its not a big loss when "yarr im so uber pirate sniper" kills 2 shuttles a day instead of 5.
Stormhold FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.14 06:12:00 - [18] Edited by: Stormhold on 14/09/2006 06:12:43 Whatever the solution is it should not be a skill which everyone has to train. Learning skills are very stupid already, everyone should just start with lvl 4 adv. learnings tbh. We don't need an another (basically) obligatory set of skills.
DaReaper Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.09.14 07:03:00 - [19] something i don;t get is why the issue with them adding a skill fix instead of BM's? Whats the issue? you don;t want to waste a few days training another skill? you;d rather waste hours gathering bm's or spend millions of isk buying regional BM's? or heck, spend a few days making them yourself? honestly here it;s the same darn thing. If you want to use BM's you watse time and money either making them or buying them. A skill fix that allows you to warp closer to an object at each level is the same thing, and once you have it trained tot he lvl you want your done. Logic says this is easyer.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.14 15:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Stormhold Edited by: Stormhold on 14/09/2006 06:12:43 Whatever the solution is it should not be a skill which everyone has to train. Learning skills are very stupid already, everyone should just start with lvl 4 adv. learnings tbh. We don't need an another (basically) obligatory set of skills. tbh what is not obligatory? should all our engineering skill be 5? what about electronics? hell navigation would be nice too... why don't they just remove every skill that doesn't have to do with how we tank or what we shoot with? sorry - this is argument have been getting on Weirda nerve a long time (about obligatory skill). OF COURSE THERE ARE OBLIGATORY SKILLS!!!! New pilot should be in gang with experienced pilot if they are flying through 0.0... etc... regardless - would love to see them (in no particular order): a) remove gate/gate bm alltogether b) make corp/alliance bm (sharable) c) make bm copy facility (like manufacturing) d) make bm attribute "original/copy" e) you can only copy "originals" (yeah, you'd better do the intel youself or know someone who did) Weirda could give a crap if any/all the above hurt the "BM Industry". there should be no industry around that - it is sad. There was a day before people started mass copying/selling those thing where you had BM's you made yourself for areas that you lived/travelled. Now every carebear and his mother who never leave Jita have 14000+ BM that they will never use because they think they need to. Oh - and make a skill too - if you want to be better at something, train it. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
Himo Amasacia Minmatar Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.09.14 16:50:00 - [21] Either give a warp to 0 option OR move all the BMs storage to the CLIENT rater than the SERVER. Ither will reduce stress on the server and sicne BMs are more or less static there is little need for them to be on the server anyway.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.14 18:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Himo Amasacia Either give a warp to 0 option OR move all the BMs storage to the CLIENT rater than the SERVER. Ither will reduce stress on the server and sicne BMs are more or less static there is little need for them to be on the server anyway. Moving BMs to client is IMO impossible. Anything you store on your HDD can be accessed sooner or later and changed (ie: cheating) :/
Eralus	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:27:00 - [23] Originally by: XoPhyte The fact is that bm's make it very difficult to kill any hostiles, and implenting a 0km solution would simply nerf piracy. That's not a fact, that's a lie. If Warp to 0 would nerf piracy, piracy would already be nerfed because bookmarks already let people warp-to-0. The only thing nerfed by warp-to-0 is "shoot newbies without bookmarks". That is a small price to pay for getting rid of BM lag. Hell, you could argue that nerfing that would be a good thing in-and-of-itself. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Eralus	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Himo Amasacia Either give a warp to 0 option OR move all the BMs storage to the CLIENT rater than the SERVER. That's the same thing. Once you put them on the client, they can be editted, and very quickly someone will put together a file of all bookmarks that gets passed around on the internet, giving everyone warp-to-0. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.

BH Runner ISD BH Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:52:00 - [25] Originally by: PhamNuwen Edited by: PhamNuwen on 13/09/2006 05:43:52 - 5 BM limit - The next consequence will be usage of macros for copy BMs. Most of us are sure, that CCP is doing nothing against macro-miners... - why we should have a difference? Just to be very clear. Macros are illegal, the use of such will result in a ban. Don't discuss using illegal game methods again. [Bug Report Here] - [Contact Us]

Rhuu Gallente Es and Whizz	Posted - 2006.09.14 19:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Weirda regardless - would love to see them (in no particular order): a) remove gate/gate bm alltogether b) make corp/alliance bm (sharable) c) make bm copy facility (like manufacturing) d) make bm attribute "original/copy" e) you can only copy "originals" (yeah, you'd better do the intel youself or know someone who did) f) Start making the planets and moons (slowly) orbit larger celestial bodies. Leave the bookmarks at absolute points in space. Maybe include a stellar cartography skill to allow for the prediction of relative to other objects in space.
Cyril Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.14 20:04:00 - [27] I think everyone is looking at this from the wrong side. The bookmark in your places list can't be that complicated of a data object. Name, region, constilation, system, x, y, z Without knowing more about how exactly CCP coded these its all speculation. But I think the issue is in creating the bookmark object in your cargo/hanger. Try it some time: put 400BMs in a folder in places and the same 400 in your hanger, close both, open them back up and see what loads first. So I say junk that all together. They should just add a "send bookmark" option on indivituals and folders which then creates a link to the BM. Everyone knows that there are only a few sets of instas for any given system and there are just a LOT of copies. If everyone's BMs just pointed to a master how could that not improve the system? I know limiting it to 5 at a time was a lot less work then totally redoing the system but just think: You have a folder named "Trade route A" with 225 BMs in it that you need to send to a new alt you just created. Rather then 3 actions; create BM object, trade BM object, import BM object into places; it just creates a link. Enclude a link count in the BM object's field and only destroy the master if all copies are destroyed. Sure there are going to be some problems, but it can't be as ugly as the current system.
Reachok Amarr Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.09.14 22:25:00 - [28] No no no!! First, create the warp to 0 option, applicable to gates and stations. After a week or two to establish it's viability (no crashing caused by it), announce a "server wide bookmark wipe day". All bookmarks all gone with the exception of allowing the creation of bookmarks only in belts. Finally, after the scan probes are fixed (allowing spherical and not plane-like scanning) allow the creation of safe spots again. Stations and gates would remain a bookmark free zone. Also, leave the current 15 kilometer autopilot warp to gate, making the warp to 0 option manual only. I had originally advocated a new Navigation skill, but after reading the reasons why this is a bad idea, I now agree. It would be a bad idea. As stated above a skill would be n00b detrimental. Where as the warp to 0 option is instantly available to new players and veterans alike. Pirates and non-pirates alike have the tools to stop ships at gates for that ganking gratification craved by many . In 0.0, the non bm zone near gates "sniper spot limitation" is overcome by interceptors and "warp to gang member" (also usable by pirate corps in low-sec). Safe spots are exchanged for cloaking devices until the scan probes are fixed. Lastly, server lag is wiped out with regards to bookmark copying. And because someone will obviously copy prodigious amounts of belt bookmarks to fill cans to induce lag, leave the 5 bookmark limit in place. To at least slow them down .
XoPhyte Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.15 01:00:00 - [29] Edited by: XoPhyte on 15/09/2006 01:05:48
DaReaper Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.09.15 02:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Reachok No no no!! First, create the warp to 0 option, applicable to gates and stations. After a week or two to establish it's viability (no crashing caused by it), announce a "server wide bookmark wipe day". All bookmarks all gone with the exception of allowing the creation of bookmarks only in belts. Finally, after the scan probes are fixed (allowing spherical and not plane-like scanning) allow the creation of safe spots again. Stations and gates would remain a bookmark free zone. Also, leave the current 15 kilometer autopilot warp to gate, making the warp to 0 option manual only. I had originally advocated a new Navigation skill, but after reading the reasons why this is a bad idea, I now agree. It would be a bad idea. As stated above a skill would be n00b detrimental. Where as the warp to 0 option is instantly available to new players and veterans alike. Pirates and non-pirates alike have the tools to stop ships at gates for that ganking gratification craved by many . In 0.0, the non bm zone near gates "sniper spot limitation" is overcome by interceptors and "warp to gang member" (also usable by pirate corps in low-sec). Safe spots are exchanged for cloaking devices until the scan probes are fixed. Lastly, server lag is wiped out with regards to bookmark copying. And because someone will obviously copy prodigious amounts of belt bookmarks to fill cans to induce lag, leave the 5 bookmark limit in place. To at least slow them down . and spending time making BM's is not noob deterent?
Na'Thuul Caldari Blood Inquisition	Posted - 2006.09.15 08:29:00 - [31] 1. Move all gates 150km from their current coordinates. - All instas become useless 2. Limit bookmarks to 250 per player. - More than enough for safes etc 3. Add "Warp to 0km" on stations and gates, but only when warping manually (No, Autopilot should not be able to insta on it's own) - I know this will contradict PF, but occationally playability must take priority. ---- Or: ADD CORPORATE BOOKMARKS! (And possibility to rent access to other corps BMs.) ---
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.09.15 12:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Na'Thuul 2. Limit bookmarks to 250 per player. - More than enough for safes etc Not even close. I have around that many bookmarks around each of several 0.0 stations for tactical purposes in PvP. Zarch AlDain
Sogarth Amarr Apache Corp	Posted - 2006.09.15 12:52:00 - [33] Instas have been a part of my game experiance since I first started playing (almost 3 years now). The removal of instas I beleive will be a sad day for this great game, all this "warp to 0km" crap, that in itself will change the game dynamics drastically. What about mining, safe spots, sniper points, fleet re-group, fleet warp to, these are all instas, what is going to replace them, christ knows. All I know is that instas are one of the best assets this game has, allows tactics to apply to all sorts of situations, allowing players to make choices, their removal takes away that choice. The only removal I see of being any good is the gate insta's, but then people will leave just for that alone, take them all and I beleive a lot of people will stop playing. Thats their choice of course, but CCP must solve this issue "internally" to resolve the storage and lag issue that instas course. They allowed it to go on for so long now, that they will "punish" the players instead of looking for an alternative solution. Hay but then again CCP does'nt listen to us lot anyway so we have no hope there. Thats my "pennies" worth, trash it if you must, but insta removal will effect this great game dramatically, more so than a new game update. Fly safe and enjoy
Rhuu Gallente Es and Whizz	Posted - 2006.09.15 16:54:00 - [34] Edited by: Rhuu on 15/09/2006 16:55:03 Grr. Buggy. Rewriting.
omega2 Gallente Jion Keanturi iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.17 15:29:00 - [35] Originally by: PhamNuwen Edited by: PhamNuwen on 13/09/2006 05:43:52 - 5 BM limit - The next consequence will be usage of macros for copy BMs. Most of us are sure, that CCP is doing nothing against macro-miners... - why we should have a difference? Now back to the topic: - increase your database - extend your itemId to 64 bit - enable BLOCK-COPY for BMs (ONE transaction for an unlimited amount of BMs) ==> you help use, we help you i guess with that statement you just got lotsa new enemies couse i guess if you make lag for us i will do everything i can to get you banned and i guess ccp should do same becouse you make that other player can'T play
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.17 17:58:00 - [36] You want BMs/instas? Make them yourself. Remove the option to copy them. My 0,02. Ship lovers click here
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.17 21:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Deva Blackfire I have WAY better idea: Remove ALL bms on the same grid as gates and stations, and then: Add an option "warp to 0km" but ONLY usable when manually controlling ship - autopilot will still warp at 15km. It will effectively give everyone instas (and manual control will be still needed) but remove the necessit of holding and copying thousands of BMs. The variation of this one: warp to 0km only usable from station/gate to station/gate. Seriously this is the best idea. It's been posted countless times. Why can't CCP just implement it already.
PhamNuwen Caldari Bungee Jumper	Posted - 2006.09.18 05:53:00 - [38] Originally by: Hellspawn01 You want BMs/instas? Make them yourself. Remove the option to copy them. My 0,02. ^ First of all - I have my BMs... Nearly 3 years I did never copy one. But the game was changed - today I need for each character/account some 1000 BMs. I assume, I have more BMs than Items. Back to the topic: Macro: I did a lock in the future... CPU/Database Space/Database Transaction: in my opinion CCP is sometimes crippling the game to save it... Some of the last 'actions' -> 5 BM-copy limit ("block copy" would only cost Database Space) -> incorect gang handling -> production/lab handling -> incorrect standing handling (composite calculation) ... tbc., but I have to work now ;-)
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.18 10:04:00 - [39] Edited by: Plutoinum on 18/09/2006 10:07:57 Quote: tbh what is not obligatory? should all our engineering skill be 5? what about electronics? hell navigation would be nice too... why don't they just remove every skill that doesn't have to do with how we tank or what we shoot with? sorry - this is argument have been getting on Weirda nerve a long time (about obligatory skill). OF COURSE THERE ARE OBLIGATORY SKILLS!!!! New pilot should be in gang with experienced pilot if they are flying through 0.0... etc... I agree to Stormhold. If you are a newbie, you have already a huge list of obligatory skills for months that you have to schedule somehow. For the vet a skill is pointless, because he's only training non-obligatory stuff, so one or 2 weeks for warp accuracy doesn't matter and then he has his warp to 0 forever. I think it's stupid, just another mandatory timesink. If you want this warp to 0, then you can also give it a few weeks earlier to me by not making it a skill. Where is the point ? If it comes out I start to train it anyway on the first day for my regions. It's just making the must-have-list of newbies longer. And if I want to kill someone, who's crawling to a gate, then especially older players and not newbies.
Megan Ryder VentureCorp CORE.	Posted - 2006.09.18 13:03:00 - [40] An open question to anyone/everyone sugeesting the addition of a 'warp to 0km' option... What percentage of players do you think actually has gate-gate bms for the whole of 0.0? The reason I ask is that I dont think it's that high, I see plenty of peeps with occasional bad bms, or off their bm routes entirely.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.09.18 13:15:00 - [41] why not allow you to copy as many Bms as you want but have set days when they will be copied. such as the tuesday downtime. so you issue a copy order and it gets queued up for the next down time. then CCP could have a startup script that copies the BMs on restart or as part of some other work when there is nobody online other then the few admins.
Akbar Jafarr	Posted - 2006.09.19 01:20:00 - [42] What is wrong with just allowing "warp to 0 km" for gates and stations and not changing anything else? That would eliminate the need for copying GtG sets, which is probably the biggest problem. This would give an advantage to individuals (not corps mind you, as they can just buy BMs and have a gang leader) travelling solo through 0.0 or low-sec. Fine with me. Supposedly mobile large warp disruptors are coming out, which effectivly de-instas anybody anyways. Please god dont make another skill. People are right when they say its just another skill that you have to train up to 5- do I play this game to fly a ship 10k to a every gate I warp to? To me any time I spend at "impulse" (thank you Star Trek) is just a waste of my time- I play the game for PVP, all that buying and selling and building. Keep instas the way they are though- I like being able to copy an insta to a mate on the fly (my GSCs in space, a SS or a sniper spot). BMs add to the tactics of eve, which are very important due to the lack of FPS style gameplay.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.09.19 02:37:00 - [43] i agree with most posters, a warp to 0 will be a very nice solution, removing the need to have the travel instas for skill or not... i will prefer a skill but the important thing will be to have a 0km option skill or not... if we speak about a skill i think it should be nothing too long to train and something like -3km/level (-20%) so at level 5 you get the 0 km option but even lv4 or even 3 can be quite usefull, expecially for noobs. (this will also keep a sense of danger for the ones that have not the skill at 5) an idea can also be to make the skill also increase the range making it usefull not only for instas/fast travel, but even for scouting/sniping. i think it will be also nice to have various star object really orbiting, will add realism and help a bit with sniper/recon bookmarks as they will get outdated in small time, but probably it will require too many resources :( i also think that the real problem of warp to 0 is that devs don't like instas philosophy and the "safeness" they bring so probably are not very inclined to this solution.... still BM nowadays are easy to aquire, the warp to 0 option will not make the life so much easier for players and instead will get rid of resource using items and help players to better
Ubute Caldari Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:44:00 - [44] Not sure if this has been sugested befor, but... -Remove all bms from around gates/stations, -Add a warp to 0 km, and 200, 300,400 km. (So that you can still warp to the gate/station at range) -Add a warp xkm distance option so that you can warp xkm (max of say 150km)in the direction you are facing. I think this about replaces all current uses of gate/station bms atm??? Would impact on fleet engagements and snipers too.. not sure if this is a good or bad impact.
11001100	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:07:00 - [45] I'm new to his forum stuff, so I'll keep it short and sweet. I guess I've already said too much. This last idea where you can warp to a set distance from your current is excellent. The idea of warping to 0K's from an object is also excellent. The idea of people copying BM's in combat to induce Lag is criminal, BM's should have a virtual size, the 5 cubit meters suggested earlier seems ideal. You can copy tactical BM's on the move but are limited to space, unless you take a freighter into combat(Umm easy kill). People would still be able to create BM's in Stations and exploit other newier players so everyone is happy. Dictors and Bubbles will still get pirates easy kills.. Just some thoughts none of them new or too interesting. Regards Parlek.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.09.19 13:22:00 - [46] A while ago I suggested a 'mini warp drive' mid slot module which you could load charge into. When you activated the module it used all the loaded charge and warped you forwards 1km per unit of charge. Zarch AlDain
Lukas Rox Torchwood Archive	Posted - 2006.09.19 13:28:00 - [47] Make option "Warp to 0 km" but only to objects you "scouted" i.e. spent for example 180 secs at 0m from the object. Create a "boomarklike" object ("Voucher" ?) with ID of the object you want bookmarked -> less memory -> faster copying. Leave old bookmarks as they are, for bookmarking safespots and for other tactical purposes. Bookmark copy facilities - very good idea. Just make them widely available and slow enough for the servers to cope with copying. Like 60 or 120 secs per bookmark. You visit bookmark Facility in the station, you select the bookmarks in your neocom, select how many times they are to be copied (10 or 15 MAX at once), fianlly order them copied and leave the station. After it's done you go back and pick copies. You can upload them to Neocom at any other station or 5 at once while in your ship. Both kinds of bookmarks should be copiable at those facilities. If you still want to copy while in space - put 5 max limit.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.09.19 13:48:00 - [48] Edited by: Shayla Etherodyne on 19/09/2006 13:48:29 The warp haead x km is beautilul, something I have wanted a lot of times, only drawback is that it cancel one of the disavantages of the big ships. If i can break a lock jumping 150 or 300 km, I then have all the time to warp at the right destination. The istants are very precious for a miner, when you need to return to station to pick up the freighter to recover your minerals, doing 15 km at less than 100 m/s is a pain with no reason, as the number of pirates camping a station, even in low sec, is very reduced, so an ista for the station is a need. A partial solution can be to give a precision to gate/station based on sec status of the system. For example, ina 1.0 system all the stations, gates, ecc. have the position precise to the meter and broadcast to all the ship, so you can jump on the gate (or at 1 km for safety), on the reverse in 0.0 space you must do your own calculation before jump, so the error is maximum (15 km). With this system at least the high security bookmark become obsolete (i will not keep them cluttering my people and places, more so as a sometimes a DC wipe all my client side information, so all the subfolders). Keep the 5 BM copy at a time and you should reduce the bookmark problem. Every player will have a little less of them and the mass copying will be reduced.
SUNscatcher Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2006.09.20 00:45:00 - [49] just don't allow making bm's or transferring them. then only people with bm's will be those that make them, should cut down on the problem significantly but still allow bm's in the game.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.20 07:19:00 - [50] Hmmm, the warp accuracy to 0km, but trainable only by region would be interesting. Adds about 55 new skills to the game, call it: Warp Gate Knowledge (Domain) etc. (one for each region), maybe lvl 1 for highsec, lvl 2 for lowsec, lvl 3 skill for 0.0 regions. Each reduces jump to gate distance in that region by 3km. Would really give regional defenders a nice advantage It would be semi-obligatory of course for all the regions you frequent a lot, but much more diverse.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 08:00:00 - [51] There have been quite a few suggestions to remove BMs completely. Or just from around ceratin objects. This causes the following problems: 1. The need for Scouting and intelligence in pvp deminishes, as having cov ops scout and create travel BMs and maneuver BMs around chockepoints and gates dimineshes... 2. A whole form of gameplay is erased. It will no longer be possible to make your living as a cartagropher, making travel BMs of regions. All in all I don't see that as a good thing, regardless of wheter or not we get another insta travel system. Perhaps it would be just more prudent to add a "cartagrophy and bookmarks" skill tree for copying of BMs... Mind control and tin hats
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.20 14:08:00 - [52] Edited by: Grey Area on 20/09/2006 14:10:00 Originally by: Weirda Weirda could give a crap if any/all the above hurt the "BM Industry". there should be no industry around that - it is sad. There was a day before people started mass copying/selling those thing where you had BM's you made yourself for areas that you lived/travelled. Now every carebear and his mother who never leave Jita have 14000+ BM that they will never use because they think they need to. Weirda speaks the truth. THe "BM Industry" deserves as much respect as the "**** Industry" or the "Child **ography" industry. Just because both of those have been going for years, you don't see people running to defend them. Bookmarks are slowly killling EVE, and it's simply because some MUPPET had the idea of selling them to some OTHER muppet who thought that one day, in the next five years, he may actually have a possible use for one of the bookmarks in the 14,000 that he just bought. NOT that the idea of warping closer to a gate should be discounted. It's just that this is a really REALLY bad way to arrange it. Add warp to 0km for manual jumps only. Autopilot still warps to 15km. Delete all bookmarks within 250km of a gate. Problem solved. Yes, those who lose their sniping bookmarks will have to make them again. My heart bleeds. Edit: Y'see, Hero-in is so bad the obscenity filter killed it. it got p0rnography too. I wonder if it's possible to add "bookmark" to it...that would just about describe how I feel. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Brackun Caldari Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.20 15:09:00 - [53] ive just made a new char, and let me tell you the fact theyve made it 5 bookmarks a copy really does ** all over new players and imbalances the game, its inevitable they have to do something else to mend this "I sat there, pondering this unusual proposition, and at that moment I was just far too embarrassed to admit that I was unfamiliar with the mechanics of zero-gravity copulation." - P.M.S.L.**
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.20 15:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Brackun ive just made a new char, and let me tell you the fact theyve made it 5 bookmarks a copy really does **** all over new players and imbalances the game, its inevitable they have to do something else to mend this OK, I think that's probably a slight exaggeration. 1. If you want bookmarks for use in empire space, you can easily make them yourself. 2. If they are for use in unsafe space, as a "new player" you really shouldn't have much need to go there yet That said, I in NO WAY agree with the 5-copy limit as a solution. It is a nasty little bodge-up and does nothing to address the root cause of the problem. Find a better way CCP! --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
SUNscatcher Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2006.09.23 16:43:00 - [55] yea it would be better not to allow copying or transfering bm's so that only those that actually make them have them to use. As compared to that solution I guess the 5 bm copy limit is very generous.
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.24 11:01:00 - [56] They sure can't implement "Warp to within 0 km" until 0.0 sovreignty defenses have been put in. Otherwise it would become a disaster. It's enough trouble when an enemy has spies to steal your bookmarks, but for everyone to be able to would make controlling large sections of space virtually impossible. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Dieter Schmidt Fury Corporation Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.24 12:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Sogarth What about mining, safe spots, sniper points, fleet re-group, fleet warp to, these are all instas, what is going to replace them, christ knows. All I know is that instas are one of the best assets this game has, allows tactics to apply to all sorts of situations, allowing players to make choices, their removal takes away that choice. The only removal I see of being any good is the gate insta's, but then people will leave just for that alone, take them all and I beleive a lot of people will stop playing. Thats their choice of course, but CCP must solve this issue "internally" to resolve the storage and lag issue that instas course. They allowed it to go on for so long now, that they will "punish" the players instead of looking for an alternative solution. Hay but then again CCP does'nt listen to us lot anyway so we have no hope there. you would stop playing if you lost your mining bm's? how much do you use at the same time? take a ceptor or covert and make new ones. i've got all region bm's and i paid lots of million for them, but i would prefer to remove them all for a warp to 0 option. that would reduce the server load and lags, it wouldn't take 2 minutes to open my p&p and i'm in any case able to warp to 0. and btw. sometimes is a reset of something needed in such games because of new situations. there are currently up to 30k ppl at the same time logged in and it will be not less in future. if you're worry about some safespotted ships, you'll have enough time to remove them if CCP announce any changes.
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.09.24 21:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Deva Blackfire I have WAY better idea: Remove ALL bms on the same grid as gates and stations, and then: Add an option "warp to 0km" but ONLY usable when manually controlling ship - autopilot will still warp at 15km. It will effectively give everyone instas (and manual control will be still needed) but remove the necessit of holding and copying thousands of BMs. The variation of this one: warp to 0km only usable from station/gate to station/gate. You're idea is good but all they need to do is add the warp to 0 km option and everyone would delete the gate to gate BM's themselves. You could then add the ability to copy as many BMs as you feel like since 99% of BM copying would disapear. We would have our tactical BMs and all delete our gate to gates on our own time, problem solved.
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.09.24 21:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Na'Thuul 2. Limit bookmarks to 250 per player. - More than enough for safes etc Not even close. I have around that many bookmarks around each of several 0.0 stations for tactical purposes in PvP. Well... you're ridiculous, the most you could possible require is like 20. And that's over kill, I use : 4 snipe points, 2 spy points, 1 insta undock, 1 insta dock, 2 safe spots Where are you getting the other 200 from?
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.09.24 22:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Grey Area Yes, those who lose their sniping bookmarks will have to make them again. My heart bleeds. The issue is with gate to gate BM's not sniping BM's. This is no place to through some hate at gate snipers. We want to get rid of the necessity of BMs, all we need to accomplish this is a warp to 0 option and the problem is solved. If we want to automatically delete the BMs, it should just be a 20 km radius around gates, not 250km... that's just well, petty of you to take a shot at snipers while we're dealing with a real problem. SB
Terminus adacai	Posted - 2006.09.25 12:32:00 - [61] Warp to 0 km = great idea for stations and gates. (add 5-8km variable miss buffer zone) cartography skills = great idea. train to level 5 and get 0-1 km away from object everytime. Don't allow bookmarks within a 60-75 km radius of installations. This would get rid of instas (except mining and safe spotting) and encourage another skill. There are a lot of good ideas. I'm sure the end result will be some type of reasonable fix.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.09.25 16:00:00 - [62] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Na'Thuul 2. Limit bookmarks to 250 per player. - More than enough for safes etc Not even close. I have around that many bookmarks around each of several 0.0 stations for tactical purposes in PvP. Well... you're ridiculous, the most you could possible require is like 20. And that's over kill, I use : 4 snipe points, 2 spy points, 1 insta undock, 1 insta dock, 2 safe spots Where are you getting the other 200 from? What I use them for is my business. I have them, I used them and I would not like to see them gone. The other people who took copies from the originator were also using them. (I'm no longer based in that region so they aren't useful to me right now - but I may well end up making similar things when I end up back out in 0.0 some time). Zarch AlDain
Cpt Buck International Brotherhood of Eve Workers	Posted - 2006.09.26 13:54:00 - [63] blah
Stoick Furious Ascent of Ages	Posted - 2006.09.26 15:59:00 - [64] Edited by: Stoick Furious on 26/09/2006 16:00:20 Why not as has been laid out in this very long post, add the 0 km option - making instas completely obsolete, make it so that on auto pilot you automatically use the Warp to 15 km feature to disadvantage people who play afk, AND make a *****ble item just like warp and sensor disrupters that when activated causes incoming ships locating computers to go offcourse by 15,20,50 kms (etc.) of their target sttion, asteroid belt, gate etc. This would keep Piracy relevent and make it a little more interesting and still allow care bears to fly around empire quickly without requiring hundreds of instas. More importantly it's a player driven solution to the problem instead of creating an artificial solution that people just create MORE bookmarks to circumvent. EDIT: For some reason this forum censored the word f-i-t-t-a-b-l-e. I don't get it.
Lucas Avidius Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.27 04:12:00 - [65] Heres my take on the whole thing. Everyone is suggesting that there either be a warp to 0 option or a skill that will bring you to 0km of the object at level 5. I think a compromise would be better. Have a skill called "Manual Warp Guidance" (Rank 1, nav skill) or something. For someone with no levels in this, the closest you can manually warp to an object is the standard 15KM. Have the skill take 5KM off the default distance at level 1 and half the remaining distance for every other level in the skill. At level 2 you would get within 5KM, at level 3 you'd get to within 2500 meters. At level 4 1250 metres, and at max you would get within 625 metres. And of course since its "Manual Warp Guidance" it goes without saying that autopilot wouldnt benifit from it. At the same time, increase the activation range of stargates to 5000 metres, and add a docking range to stations of say, 3750 metres. This would mean that level 5 wouldnt be nessecary for anyone who just travels, and level 2 would be sufficient for newbies to train it to as you'd land within gate activation range 95% of the time (theres always a little bit of drift when coming out of warp anyway). Level 4 would only be useful for if you need to get to a VERY specific point in space such as a can anchored at a safespot or a low-sec sniping bookmark made mere metres outside of sentry gun range. And Level 5 would be something for only the most anal retentive of folks, or for people who literally have nothing else to train. Just my 2 cents. I'd love to be able to get rid of all the gate and station bookmarks I have and just keep stuff like safespots and other points that actually have some importance.
Father Weebles Panzershrek	Posted - 2006.09.27 22:29:00 - [66] Edited by: Father Weebles on 27/09/2006 22:32:03 Originally by: Hellspawn01 You want BMs/instas? Make them yourself. Remove the option to copy them. My 0,02. f that i wont even consider making my own instas anymore now that i got bms for 6+ regions. the lag is is horrible in places tab... "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Grytok	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:27:00 - [67] The Idea of Lucas Avidius is just fine I think. Training a timemulti 1 skill to LVL 2 or 3 takes no longer than copying a full set of BMs, so there is nothing to complain about it. For people who need the last LVLs to get exactly to a point as possible it would take about 5 days to get there, which is not so bad I think. Sure it is another skill that is a must have, but come on. If you want to be able to have instas without BMs, then this little pain should be acceptable. PLEASE CCP, THINK ABOUT THAT
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:51:00 - [68] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Na'Thuul 2. Limit bookmarks to 250 per player. - More than enough for safes etc Not even close. I have around that many bookmarks around each of several 0.0 stations for tactical purposes in PvP. Well... you're ridiculous, the most you could possible require is like 20. And that's over kill, I use : 4 snipe points, 2 spy points, 1 insta undock, 1 insta dock, 2 safe spots Where are you getting the other 200 from? You are not a miner, right? An example, system with 10 belts, and 1 station where I want to drop the minerals. For optimal use I will need: 2 ista for belt, about 30 km apart to mine all or most of it, and 1 ista for every belt to te station as I am coming from differnt direction every time. Add a gate to gate and a gate to/from station (system with 2 gates) and you have 36 ista in a single system. (never done all the set as I am lazy, but an hard core user will and should do it).
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.09.29 09:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Na'Thuul 2. Limit bookmarks to 250 per player. - More than enough for safes etc Not even close. I have around that many bookmarks around each of several 0.0 stations for tactical purposes in PvP. Well... you're ridiculous, the most you could possible require is like 20. And that's over kill, I use : 4 snipe points, 2 spy points, 1 insta undock, 1 insta dock, 2 safe spots Where are you getting the other 200 from? You are not a miner, right? An example, system with 10 belts, and 1 station where I want to drop the minerals. For optimal use I will need: 2 ista for belt, about 30 km apart to mine all or most of it, and 1 ista for every belt to te station as I am coming from differnt direction every time. Add a gate to gate and a gate to/from station (system with 2 gates) and you have 36 ista in a single system. (never done all the set as I am lazy, but an hard core user will and should do it). Actually you can make insta-docks for stations from any direction by making one bookmark. Just fly as close to the center of the station and bookmark where you are (or even just bookmark the spot where you undock as that is often close enough). Zarch AlDain
Femaref Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.29 18:11:00 - [70] On Minmatarstations - It's possible. But Amarr Stations are too large for that, as example.

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