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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
Jane Shapperd
SUPERFLUOUS WANDERLUST Gentlemen's.Club
115
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Posted - 2015.02.15 15:40:27 -
[871] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Jane Shapperd wrote:
i use +5 implants all the time and i pvp in them i don't give a **** if i lose them as long as i train faster than other players
Interesting statement, if I check the killboard of Jane Shapperd ... I see ... many empty pods ;)
oh snap some1 noticed
when i lose my ship i consider the situation if i am going to lose my pod 100%( bubble , pipe bomb , gate camp smart bombs) i start upluging everysingle implant starting with learning +5s then hardwairing implants as all the 5 of them are cheaper than two +5.
i mentioned in one of my posts i mostly lose my implants by unpluging them not by being poded as i care more about kb rather than my wallet. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
108
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Posted - 2015.02.15 16:08:05 -
[872] - Quote
NeodiuM wrote:I'm for the removal of attribute enhancing implants and the attribute map. 10+ years on I don't really see why people are going to complain about a slightly accelerated skill queueing.
Honestly.
Cons: 1) Its bad for veterans or industrialists who are heavily invested in the attribute implants. - some form of compensation for them. 2) People who have already done their skill training may complain because it should be hard for others. 3) Peepz will say "Don't make eve easy"
Pro's: 1) Get your mate into the game quicker. 2) New players wont have steam coming out of their ears just trying to sort out these menu's before undocking. 3) Reduced requirement for outside programs to manage your skill queue and assist in optimising it. 4) There is no easy way to put this in a new player tutorial, removal is good - really, how would you do it, if its overly complicated, it will be ignored while more basic game concepts are learned and then forgotten. 5) Less "mandatory" feeling implants to risk loosing, over and over. (I don't mind pvp'ing with learning implants in if i'm stuck in that clone, but when an FC says, lets go whelp this fleet and get a fight, its sad watching half of it drop out because they don't want to loose their pod.) ie. loosing a 40m pod in a 20m frigate.
It's a pain in the ass to work out and not much fun when I decide I want to try something else in eve. If I already had 100m sp I probably wouldn't care, but I don't, I have 20m sp and I'm only now starting to feel relevant outside of a blob.
Honestly, I love eve and I love the complexity of eve. These implants and the mapping attributes were another thing that I had to get my head around, they wern't fun, but I felt better for understanding them after reading up on it. And because I tend to switch my training around alot I went with a balanced map, I now just understand i'm not mapped as optimally as others. Its a trade off for fun.
TLDR; Its hard enough trying to get my mates into eve, without having this hurdle / giving them implants to help them / watching them loosing so many implants / watching them give up. The attribute system doesn't make sense anymore.
Implants aren't needed to play the game.
They are a luxury...not a necessity.
They are something a player makes the choice to spend their isk on knowing that they can be podded and have to replace them.
If you cannot afford to lose your implants and choose to be risk averse that is your choice.
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Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
418
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Posted - 2015.02.15 17:05:28 -
[873] - Quote
There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.
While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
108
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Posted - 2015.02.15 17:42:59 -
[874] - Quote
Noxisia Arkana wrote:There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.
While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.
PvP doesn't add anything of value to me. Lets get rid of it.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1116
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Posted - 2015.02.15 18:13:48 -
[875] - Quote
NeodiuM wrote:TLDR; Its hard enough trying to get my mates into eve, without having this hurdle / giving them implants to help them / watching them loosing so many implants / watching them give up. The attribute system doesn't make sense anymore.
OR you could teach them about how SP isn't that important and how EVE is about risk, planning and reward. But I guess that's just way too difficult, right.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1116
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Posted - 2015.02.15 18:15:22 -
[876] - Quote
Noxisia Arkana wrote:There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.
While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.
It's a simple case of reading forums, asking questions, noticing your standings are dropping and... putting in some brain effort.
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
180
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Posted - 2015.02.15 18:53:12 -
[877] - Quote
Noxisia Arkana wrote:There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.
While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.
there are ways to fix that once you have messed up. the easiest being a skill to train which only takes 6 days from 0lv-5lv and can be trained almost at the start of the game.
The equation: e=(10-(s))*(d*.04)+(s) where: s=Standing d=Diplomacy level e=Effective standing
at Diplomacy lv 5 you can have -8.7 standings and still run around in that factions space without them bothering you. As -10 is the lowest you can do and requires alot of work to get it there. once they are there I doubt they are newbies anymore
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29916
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Posted - 2015.02.15 22:17:40 -
[878] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Noxisia Arkana wrote:There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.
While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here. PvP doesn't add anything of value to me. Lets get rid of it. My suggestion for fixing faction standings is a tag system similar to clone tags for security status. F&I
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Seven Koskanaiken
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1409
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Posted - 2015.02.15 23:40:41 -
[879] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Phoenix Czech wrote:Two things I do not like on this: 1) It will probably lead to slow skilling. Skilling is already slow enough even with +5 implants and max. remap. 2) Actual atribute system force me to thing about skilling. Make plans for sklil que and remaps. It force me to use my brain. Removing this mechanic simply move eve closer to stupid arcade game types. If I would like play games where pushing two buttons is maximum possible, I would play another game (Pac Man for example).
1) is an assumption that really doesn't have a basis. 2) Regardless of skill training speed, there are plenty of difficult choices to make in a system where you can only train one (out of hundreds) of skills at once, and they usually take days, or longer. A system that required you to solve a math problem before adding a skill to your skill queue would also force you to use your brain while choosing skills, but it would be a ridiculous gameplay roadblock. Tests of knowledge or skill that have no relevance to the rest of the game aren't inherently valuable solely because they add difficulty. Finally, I'd advise that if you're trying to change the mind of the development team, you're best off arguing your case rather than dismissing arguments on the other side of the question as "stupid."
Surely all XP systems can be gamed by using one's brain. If you had to grind for XP surely there would be a mathematically optimal solution to reduce travel time and do the quests or killing the right mobs (do mods x levels above you, etc). It's the equivalent of going to another MMO and ask the quest givers to all be placed at equidistant towns to be done one-by-one with no variation so everyone can skill at the same rate in case someone works it out and has an unfair advantage. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7778
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Posted - 2015.02.15 23:54:30 -
[880] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote: Implants aren't needed to play the game.
They are a luxury...not a necessity.
They are something a player makes the choice to spend their isk on knowing that they can be podded and have to replace them.
If you cannot afford to lose your implants and choose to be risk averse that is your choice.
Time WAAAAARP!!
I could pull up those exact words posted about learning skills made by people like you to justify keeping them in the game.
How did that work out?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Seven Koskanaiken
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1411
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Posted - 2015.02.15 23:56:49 -
[881] - Quote
While we are debating this change to learning implants can we have some data on the last clone change that was meant to "get people pvp'ing". Something like say
- how many clones in the top 20% of SP had more ship deaths/kills after the removal of clone costs, and by how much more - how many clones in the top 20% of SP without no little or no ship deaths/kills whatsoever had more after the change |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29922
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Posted - 2015.02.15 23:59:08 -
[882] - Quote
sorta moot, considering the med clone cost was removed to allow sleepers and drifters to pod us. So not only was it purely an RP/ lore based change, it's also too soon for those metrics to show anything. There's too much habit and ingrained behavior for the recent med clone change to have affected much, I think.
the low end of the top 20% of SP characters is lower than you think. Perhaps you meant to say clones with more than x amount of SP, say, 200 mil +.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Seven Koskanaiken
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1411
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Posted - 2015.02.16 00:01:39 -
[883] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:sorta moot, considering the med clone cost was removed to allow sleepers and drifters to pod us. So not only was it purely an RP/ lore based change, it's also too soon for those metrics to show anything. There's too much habit and ingrained behavior for the recent med clone change to have affected much, I think.
Fair enough but there's still a vocal base of "I don't pvp because of x" and I'm sure they are not totally ignored by CSM/CCP. |
ThaMa Gebir
Penumbra Institute
13
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Posted - 2015.02.16 00:12:49 -
[884] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:I don't own this game. All I have is a license to access this game's servers with its client. CCP doesn't owe me anything for being a player. Any time and effort I put in this game is a waste of my life.
Therefore CCP retains the right to change anything they want, including shutting down the servers for good when this becomes unprofitable, and they don't owe me anything.
Like any game.
Which also means I can stop payment and deny them any more income from me.
Simple. :D |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
1004
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Posted - 2015.02.16 01:26:50 -
[885] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:sorta moot, considering the med clone cost was removed to allow sleepers and drifters to pod us.
This is not accurate. EVE Game Design has been looking at the entire clone and skill systems with an eye toward simplification and improving game design, and the removal of med clone cost was the first step of that.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1072
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Posted - 2015.02.16 01:38:43 -
[886] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Rain6637 wrote:sorta moot, considering the med clone cost was removed to allow sleepers and drifters to pod us. This is not accurate. EVE Game Design has been looking at the entire clone and skill systems with an eye toward simplification and improving game design, and the removal of med clone cost was the first step of that.
Thank you for that btw. Keep up the good work.
I'd rather complexity in space flight and being a Eve Space God. Not micromanaging which clone has the +3 to train harder skill.
Yaay!!!!
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
33119
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Posted - 2015.02.16 01:39:52 -
[887] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:EVE Game Design has been looking at the entire clone and skill systems with an eye toward simplification and improving game design, and the removal of med clone cost was the first step of that. It doesn't need to be simple, just intuitive.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
258
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Posted - 2015.02.16 03:23:09 -
[888] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:EVE Game Design has been looking at the entire clone and skill systems with an eye toward simplification and improving game design, and the removal of med clone cost was the first step of that. It doesn't need to be simple, just intuitive. Or better explained. That's been the biggest flaw, not that it's complex, that it's complex AND you're on your own to figure it out.
It's one reason I want making a JC to be part of the Career Agent missions. I know of LOTS of PVE/Industrial placers that have no clue about them, how to get them, what they could be used for. Add to that the current ways to get them (Grind Standings, Join a corp with standings, join a corp in Null, or with a Cap that has a Clone Vat Bay). Teaching new players about it, AND giving them one so they can find uses on their own would be great. Added benefit of my previous idea of making it a JC that can't hold implants, and isn't limited by the JC Cooldown, means never again will "Implants" be an excuse for not being able to PvP. You'd always have a clone that you can hop into and lose at a moments notice. Leave the Cooldown for clones with implants/hardwires for either hard fits, specialist, or pve. And then have one that you can be mining, or running missions in, corpmate/friend/someone in a common channel says hey, lets go blow stuff up, and there you go.
We come back to removing +5 Implants will make people more likely to PVP, you think they are going to want to risk their 5% and 6% hardwires? Each of those costs as much or more than Attribute implants. My Mining clone is still going to have it's high end hardwires.. my Mission clone, Incursion clone, same thing. With-Without learning implants, none of them are going looking for a fight. I doubt I'm alone in this either.
The solution for dealing with people that won't PVP because of Pod costs is already in game. A little tweaking to it and it's removed as an excuse.
Another way, just remove the whole standing requirement to Make JC's. Make it so you can create one at ANY NPC station with Med Center. Set it to 8.0 standing is when you just pay the base 100k isk, and then work back, lower your standing, more expensive it is. Now everyone has access (for an upfront fee).. still want it to be a training mission but ya.
End of the day lots of options that imho would be far better for making people have quick access to being able to PVP, than just removing 5 out of 10 possible implants at any given time. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
1004
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Posted - 2015.02.16 03:41:46 -
[889] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:Or better explained. That's been the biggest flaw, not that it's complex, that it's complex AND you're on your own to figure it out.
Complexity is not a problem in itself, otherwise EVE wouldn't have survived as long as it has. Still, the idea that "if it were all just explained better, new players would be OK" is a little bit of a trap.
For example, double-clicking in space to steer your ship is clearly explained in the initial tutorial, before the career agents. But, the majority of new players miss it, because they're focused on interacting, not reading. It's right up in front of them in black and white, but my personal straw poll says that 100% of them (+/- 0%) miss it.
It's easy to say that one should overhaul the new player experience to make the introduction to the game more about doing things and less about reading blocks of text, but that's spectacularly hard to execute -- particularly when the basic game mechanics are as complicated as EVE's.
Some of EVE's complexity is essential to the experience. Ship fitting is one example. The range of modules and ship bonuses are so wide that it is possible to come up with innovative fits that do something interesting and new compared to what's been out there before.
What's troubling about the current state of the attribute system isn't its complexity, it's that (first) the choices don't have relevance to the rest of the game (because attributes usually don't map to things you want to do in game), and (second) that the punishment for not knowing about it is cumulative. If I spend a year learning good sources for information about ship fitting, I instantly gain an in-game benefit from that. If I take a year to get my head around the attribute system, I'm behind by a couple months, not just right then, but forever.
If a new player picks skills they don't want later, that's a different issue: at least their skill training has enabled some experimentation and gameplay that might satisfy their curiosity about things they ultimately don't wish to do in EVE. But, the attribute system is just complexity for its own sake.
And, of course, I'll repeat what I consider to be the best argument against skill training differences: When you don't know about attributes, you can train whatever you want. When you do, you're forced to train skills you don't want because an artificial system is forcing you to do so. EVE shouldn't systematically punish those who learn more deeply how the game works by forcing them to make decisions they don't like because of their deeper knowledge.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29924
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Posted - 2015.02.16 03:58:39 -
[890] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:EVE Game Design has been looking at the entire clone and skill systems with an eye toward simplification and improving game design, and the removal of med clone cost was the first step of that. It doesn't need to be simple, just intuitive. I'm under the impression med clone costs were only removed to allow NPCs to pod us, and lore / RP.
Not the math of it and the fact that it made very little sense ten years in (and was basically a constantly increasing punishment for accumulating SP).
So no, I'm not buying it.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
963
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Posted - 2015.02.16 04:42:49 -
[891] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:I often see people asking "Why don't we get to hear about future changes to the game early, when they're still being considered, instead of right before they happen?" This is an instance where you have heard about something that's far enough out that even the game designers aren't sure what they want to propose yet.
Yet at the current pace of releases it seems that as soon as something has a dev blog it is going in game within a week or two. Then again most of those changes were on a much smaller scale than some of the proposals like "fix sov" and "remove attributes"
@ChainsawPlankto
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29924
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Posted - 2015.02.16 05:07:30 -
[892] - Quote
There's probably a concern about high sec mission runners being unable to make use of jump clones without sufficient Faction standings, or know-how. If that's the case and educating these independent randoms is not considered an option (which it probably isn't), CCP will probably use the solution that involves no further action from independents.
It's bullshit, but it would include the normalization of attributes and removing the remap mechanic. I can only hope they'll allow attribute implants to stay.
I mean, really, what does a high sec mission nobody need slots 1-5 for, other than attributes. Crystal sets for their Golem or Tengu character? Which, if you ask me, already meet their needs with the +4 attributes that have been added to HG sets.
Or you could make NPC corp jump clone installations free from a standings requirement, and swap the lore over to a profit-driven service, rather than a loyalty service to capsuleers. Similar to the changes to POS standings in high sec.
Suddenly, I get the feeling remaps are being removed, and all attributes will be set at 24, or whatever the average is.
What would make me happy is if HG sets had +5s to attributes, rather than +4. That would solve some dilemmas for vets and randoms alike, all over EVE.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Castor II
The Scope Gallente Federation
116
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Posted - 2015.02.16 05:18:56 -
[893] - Quote
I'll be glad if they remove attributes and remaps and have all skills train at the same speed. Just seems like the wrong kind of complexity to me.
Maybe have implants that give a bonus to training speed of all skills instead? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29924
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Posted - 2015.02.16 05:23:44 -
[894] - Quote
I'm all for simplification where it's needed, but that would be re-complicating things unnecessarily.
With super pilots unable to dock, at first glance they seem to miss out on training with +5s, but the smart thing to do is sit in that super with +5s in, and the appropriate HG set in cargo. That way if they get into some **** they can unplug their +5s and swap into slaves, or snakes, etc.
Or hold supers with sitters.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
258
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Posted - 2015.02.16 08:24:29 -
[895] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Or better explained. That's been the biggest flaw, not that it's complex, that it's complex AND you're on your own to figure it out. Complexity is not a problem in itself, otherwise EVE wouldn't have survived as long as it has. Still, the idea that "if it were all just explained better, new players would be OK" is a little bit of a trap. For example, double-clicking in space to steer your ship is clearly explained in the initial tutorial, before the career agents. But, the majority of new players miss it, because they're focused on interacting, not reading. It's right up in front of them in black and white, but my personal straw poll says that 100% of them (+/- 0%) miss it. It's easy to say that one should overhaul the new player experience to make the introduction to the game more about doing things and less about reading blocks of text, but that's spectacularly hard to execute (not that the folks working on the new player experience aren't trying!) -- particularly when the basic game mechanics are as complicated as EVE's. I'll be the first to say Eve has come forward massively with improving the Career Agent missions to better explain things. But a lot of things are glossed over.
You use the example about double clicking in space is mentioned, but most people ignore it. Solution? Make part of one of the missions "head towards the Nebula" or something, somewhere in space that isn't an object you can click on and hit approach. This is basically what has been happening. The new player missions have been expanded on, better popups, better missions.
This is why I lean toward better explanation BEFORE simplification. I mean remaps are complex, they really are. IMHO they became even more computer when CCP moved some of the skills around, so you can no longer generalize that skills in Category X are always Y/Z Attributes.. obvious example, Weapon Upgrades being moved out of Gunnery, but still needing the Percep/Will remap. But we also need to be honest there, there's is almost NO explanation in game about it. It is probably one of the worst explained, yet important parts. Implants get a better overview, oh and we get given some early on too \o/
Hell maybe the ideal setup is to remove new remaps, and the whole idea of the yearly remap.. Then make it so you get them by doing specific things in game. Like trading in tags to an agent earns you one. Then you aren't going and play with it out of the blue. Also it would remove the whole being forced to wait a year to earn them. Or maybe give Interbus storyline missions, and have remaps be the reward. Make it an item (like resculpt) so you've made a market for them.
I see lots of ways we can improve this part of the game, without simply removing it.
On a side note, props on you for engaging in the topic :) Even if you aren't the one making the call. It's much appreciated :)
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Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
59
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Posted - 2015.02.16 08:42:14 -
[896] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Or better explained. That's been the biggest flaw, not that it's complex, that it's complex AND you're on your own to figure it out. If a new player picks skills they don't want later, that's a different issue: at least their skill training has enabled some experimentation and gameplay that might satisfy their curiosity about things they ultimately don't wish to do in EVE. But, the attribute system is just complexity for its own sake.
It is not. It is something that forces a choice. Choice makes people (characters) differ. Notice any RPG worth its salt has attributes? For any of those games your reasoning applies as well. Ultimately it is not about complexity - it is about choice. The idea is, that as a player, you have to consider trade-offs that define your choice: essentially you choose between a short term benefit vs. a long term benefit. You have to THINK what is important to you and what might not be a priority.
What you essentially do here is arguing for the instant gratification crowd and sugar coat it by saying it is complexity without meaning. It could not be further from the truth. The attribute system is one essential component that separates the wheat (people who invest into their characters and the game) from the chaff (people who dabble).
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29925
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Posted - 2015.02.16 08:47:03 -
[897] - Quote
False dichotomy alert.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated Northern Associates.
118
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Posted - 2015.02.16 09:43:36 -
[898] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Or better explained. That's been the biggest flaw, not that it's complex, that it's complex AND you're on your own to figure it out. If a new player picks skills they don't want later, that's a different issue: at least their skill training has enabled some experimentation and gameplay that might satisfy their curiosity about things they ultimately don't wish to do in EVE. But, the attribute system is just complexity for its own sake. It is not. It is something that forces a choice. Choice makes people (characters) differ. Notice any RPG worth its salt has attributes? For any of those games your reasoning applies as well. Ultimately it is not about complexity - it is about choice. The idea is, that as a player, you have to consider trade-offs that define your choice: essentially you choose between a short term benefit vs. a long term benefit. You have to THINK what is important to you and what might not be a priority. What you essentially do here is arguing for the instant gratification crowd and sugar coat it by saying it is complexity without meaning. It could not be further from the truth. The attribute system is one essential component that separates the wheat (people who invest into their characters and the game) from the chaff (people who dabble).
I find myself agreeing with you.
What the attribute is missing then is relatvivity to choice ... cause and effect are far too distant from each other. And far to annoying to work out that most people don't even bother (unless they know they'r planning a major skill progression (ie Alliance creation or Titan flying) that they 'know' will 'ALL' beneift from a single neural map.
Even then, most skill tree don't last a full year, by which time the attributes are 'an accepted fix' and ignored.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
1010
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Posted - 2015.02.16 11:06:21 -
[899] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Or better explained. That's been the biggest flaw, not that it's complex, that it's complex AND you're on your own to figure it out. If a new player picks skills they don't want later, that's a different issue: at least their skill training has enabled some experimentation and gameplay that might satisfy their curiosity about things they ultimately don't wish to do in EVE. But, the attribute system is just complexity for its own sake. It is not. It is something that forces a choice. Choice makes people (characters) differ. Notice any RPG worth its salt has attributes? For any of those games your reasoning applies as well. Ultimately it is not about complexity - it is about choice. The idea is, that as a player, you have to consider trade-offs that define your choice: essentially you choose between a short term benefit vs. a long term benefit. You have to THINK what is important to you and what might not be a priority.
Player choice is not a value in itself. Imagine (for a moment) that the skill system required players to train one of two skills early on. One skill cuts their hit points in half, for all time, on all ships. Another cuts their damage in half, for all time, on all ships.
This would be a choice. It's even a choice between two things that directly affect how the core combat game plays out. But, it's a choice that feels bad because it's a choice between two options with no upside, and it's not fun. It would just be bad game design.
When you attempt to play optimally with attribute remaps, you either pick skills in line with your remap (yawn, of course you do) or you find yourself forced to deviate from your remap and it feels bad.
It's just like my hypothetical skills, where best case you'd be optimized for tanking and flying a freighter (where they would provide no benefit), and worst case you'd be bashing a POS for two hours while optimized for tanking (where it would actively make the gameplay less fun).
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11793
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Posted - 2015.02.16 11:15:01 -
[900] - Quote
Oh, now that's just hyperbole. I really don't think anyone is talking about the kind of consequences that cut your hitpoints in half for the rest of your character's life.
Attributes are meh. Yep.
Implants are not. They are a meaningful choice, and encourage decision making based on risk vs reward. (just because some people choose wrong and handcuff themselves is not reason to scrap that whole system)
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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