The Tengu *can* solo pvp, it just costs a lot lot more than other solo pvp vessels and isn't especially good at it.

Why are T3s in need of an emergency defensive subsystem nerf after all these years of being unchanged? Surely just waiting to do an actual balance pass would be the sensible thing to do.

None of this makes the battleship class more viable. This change only achieves dragging T3's down a bit which while a bit sad to see is necessary.

I tested out my tengu on SISI and I tanked a thanatos and Orthrus quite easily pre-change. SISI has already been updated to the new format and I wouldn't be as game to try it out now I think.

First, I'm glad Strategic Cruisers are getting nerfed. When the standard response to a Proteus being in the fight is "just dock up", because there is no good counter other than a blob or more T3s, the ship class is OP.

That being said, I don't think this quite addresses the issue with T3 cruisers, and I'll be excited to see what else CCP has in store. In my opinion, T3 cruisers are supposed to be highly appealing because they are more flexible than anything, not because they are flat out better than everything. However, in the current state of affairs, T3s can out-tank, out-DPS, out-run and out-range T2 cruisers, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. They are flat out better combat ships than every sub-cap with the exception of marauders. Frigates, destroyers, a handful of cruisers and marauders still have function because of niche roles, but if it wasn't for a high amount of SP required to fly T3s well, T3s would obsolete everything else.

I would personally like to see the SP loss go away, ship cost to go down, and even stronger subsystems, but subsystems that came with substantial drawbacks as well. Sure you can tank your T3 to insane EHP, but kiss your DPS goodbye, or you can project at great distances, but you're a slow, clumsy glass cannon. In general, I think that a T3, fit for general PvP, should be a bit weaker than a HAC, because we already have HACs and we don't need duplicate ship classes. Right now, T3s are just super-bonused HACs.

You keep talking about T3's as if they were just "some stupid super T2 cruisers that arent needed in this game". I cant understand this kinda mentality. I read your post but i cant still understand why you dont like them.

T3's arent flat out better in everything than all other sub caps. Example why are ishtars used so much if T3 is better?

Imho T3 is supposed to be better than hacs in all classes they do cost more than twice as much. And after all they are T3 not T1,5 as in T3 even sounds like it should be better than T2. Besides whats the whole point of this ship class. Hull that you can customize to suit for your needs. Would it be BS tank, 100mn ab, cloaky nulified or exploring or whatever. And there is nothing wrong with this. I like T3's as they are and like to them stay as they are. I like to fly them and i like to kill them theyre aweosome fun on both sides. Besides they are rather easy to kill..

I have also tanked thanny on sisi with triple rep hyper. Just saying..

I bet you weren't cap stable. I was.

As it is right now, T3s are super HACs. Recon fitted T3s arent op (or at least dont feel that op) like HAC fitted T3s. They feel much better than normal recons but dont get that silly borderline opness, that they get when you switch them to do both damage and tank well. One part of the problem is the power of medium rails, as Lokis arent that much used, blaster ships are easy to kite, laser legions easily neuted out and HAM/HM legions either dont have the required range or DPS. A ship that shoots up to 120km with ok-ish DPS, good alpha, forgetable cap consumption, very good speed and super fast align time on the other hand is not so cool.
The only way to flat out counter T3s is to bring even more of them and maybe sensor damp/tracking disrupt them. But EWAR only has a limited range and Tengus can easily shoot from afar.



Because of Sentrys are the one weapon system that is even more broken than railguns :)



Easy to kill? They are the hardest ships to kill in all of EVE! Maybe the T3 destroyers are a bit harder if they are able to maintain a long distance to the enemy, but T3s are very very strong ships and outclass other ships in their price tag with ease. The main part about T3 cruisers isnt their flexbility, as this is not getting much use. There are only a few different really strong fits for each of them, which is pretty sad. They are not versatile. They are just stronger HACs.

You say they outclass every other ships with their price tag. These ships are pirate BS's like mach or rattle. Arty mach will outrange and out dps loki for example. Even arty TFI can outrange and out dps loki. Rattle will outrange and out dps tengu. Vindi will out dps any T3. You see where this is going?

Killing T3's in different surroundigs like solo/small gang/null blob isnt hard. Which means that if null blob has 50 scimis and you cant kill tengu it just might be cause of scimis. T3's are very easy to alpha off field with lets say for example 150 arty machs at +100k. In this scenario they become bigger problem when you let them land too close so you cant track em anymore. T3's in small gangs are very easy to kill by shooting it its matter of reps again. If theres too much reps then you need damps and neuts on logis. Solo T3's are also easy to kill lets say 100mn tengu. Multiple webs and neuts work well here instead feeding said tengu frigate by frigate..

T3's are very easy to alpha off field with lets say for example 150 arty machs at +100k.

very easy to alpha off field

150 arty machs

I feel you might want to get your idea of "easy" sorted out there, chief.

Well done, sir. You picked the one T3 who is not capable of keeping up with the others to justify the power of the 2 that are really the problem: the Railgun Tengu and Proteus. And ofc. the Vindicator outdps any T3. But also the T3 kite the Vindicator to hell and will volley them from the field. Machas and Rattlesnakes dont tank nearly as much as a Tengu and therefor will die, even when they slightly outgun the Tengu (wouldnt be sure about that one, as paper dmg vs. projected damage)

Killing Tengus in nullsec blobs is hard. What do you think, why everybody uses them and why everybody uses them effectivily? Because it is not that easy to kill them. Neuting ships have only a very short range and are - besides the Curse - quite purely armortanked ships, so they get kited again because of shieldships dont care about your super buffertank and lowsignature as long as they are shooting with the awesome tracking of medium railguns and sentrys.

Whats the problem here? I see this in null all the time and even in low with smaller numbers. 150 machs/tfi's vs 150 tengus nothing new in null blobs. For example this is fleet doctrine for stain russians and they are not only ones using arty mach doctrine with these numbers.

The fact that you need to compare a T3 to Pirate BS's tells you just how broken they are.

Might want to remember, T3's are not supposed to be better than their T2 Counterparts, they are supposed to be more versatile. Currently, they are, except where drones are involved, crushing most of their T2 Counterparts. They out-rep a T2 Logi, but are very ranged limited. They boost 3 links, but not as much as a Commandship boosts 2, etc. So why should they be doing as much or more DPS, AND faster, AND better tank, AND often times smaller sig, than a HAC? Why should they be fitting tanks that most BS's struggle to fit and remain functional. It's silly.

And don't give me cost. CCP has said dozens of times, Cost isn't a balancing factor. If you make a fleet that rarely dies, then the cost is negated anyway. SP Loss, again, isn't there to make it better, it's the price you pay for having a hull that can be fit to do anything well. WELL being the key word. T3's shouldn't be the best at anything, but able to do everything well when fit right. They shouldn't be outfighting a HAC, out boosting a CS, out repping a Logi, etc.

Oh and as for the Vindi deal.. say at Disruptor range, which is out of it's webrange, and kill kill kill. Medium Rails will easily track it, and it'll never catch you, and can't warp off.


It's gonna be a painful day when CCP actually does their full rebalance of T3's.. I expect a lot of tears and rage.

I have never seen a 150 man mach fleet. You do not alpha a tengu fleet in anything short of a full sentry carrier fleet due to the tiny sig, speed and massive tank on the tengu all while being cap stable.

Your comment so wrong in many ways. Only reason i compared it to pirate bs's was because i answered to post that claimed T3's will "outclass anything with similar price tag" so i did make example with ships that has similar price tag. And again about vindi was answer to an post that claimed "T3 will kite and win vindi" and i did ask him if he meant solo/small gang/null blob cause all of these situations are very different. And i did also make few examples what could happen there. Tbh solo BS vs solo T3 i wouldnt pick vindi for he job anyway. Tempest would do much better with its 2 heavy neuts. T3's cap dont work with 2 heavy neuts on it.

End of story

I'm disappointed. I brought buckets for all those tears but there are none. Rise, not enough nerfed...

Get on the fighter assist thread and your bucket will be well used.

Well i have seen 150 mach fleets. But i guess you havent been in stain. Alltho im pretty sure they use these elsewhere too.
And yes you can alpha tengus from enough range when you have enough alpha. Your speed and sig doesnt work so well from range. With enough numbers T3's will pop. I have seen this happen.

WOW because links aren't the common denominator with most of the games imbalances, no Sir not at all.

To balance links I propose that getting killed in a links ship (any ship fitted with links) resets one of your links skills to level 4 randomly.