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FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:05:00 - [181] Going diplomatic for a second.... ISS state that they have a specific list of corporations operating in LV space. How about this: - D2/IRON set any ISS corp related to intel logs to -10 - D2/IRON set any ISS corp operating from LV space to -10 - Any other ISS corp is set to +5 What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:15:00 - [182] Originally by: Rei Toai ISS HAS NO POWER - while others have. and it has nothing to do with the neighbours beeing pirates, tyrans and so on - it has only to do with flaws in the concept of ISS. This sort of ill-informed rant irritates me, and I'll tell you why. ISS set out with clear goals: Develop empty areas of 0.0, so that a new generation of EVE players outside the traditional territorial alliances can experience 0.0 life. 7 outposts and 2,000 members later, they have been REMARKABLY successful in these simple and honest goals. They have changed EVE forever, in fact, more so than almost ANY territorial alliance ever has, or ever will. And they have done all this, whilst tip-toeing around the egos of the territorial alliances with remarkable diplomatic success (for the most part). ISS required tact, intelligence, and dedication for relatively little reward. But what a success they have been. So by saying what you have said, you only show yourself up, as someone who doesnt have the first clue about what ISS is actually about, what its goals where, or what it has achieved.
Lunamariea Hawke Gallente Combined industrial	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:30:00 - [183] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Going diplomatic for a second.... ISS state that they have a specific list of corporations operating in LV space. How about this: - D2/IRON set any ISS corp related to intel logs to -10 - D2/IRON set any ISS corp operating from LV space to -10 - Any other ISS corp is set to +5 Now we are getting somewhere.However maybe ammend the first line so that any corps giving intel are kicked. I think perhaps the main problem of all this is the fact that ISS are in both the North and South at once. Maybe Iss should have different divisions I.e Northern Division. Despite the bravado coming from some pilots here many ISS/d2/fla/iron are friends and often work together in the north. Iss pilots become friends with whoever is local thus Northern ISS would be unlikely to cause harm to D2. Southern ISS pilots however would be friendly with enemies of D2.
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:31:00 - [184] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Rei Toai ISS HAS NO POWER - while others have. and it has nothing to do with the neighbours beeing pirates, tyrans and so on - it has only to do with flaws in the concept of ISS. This sort of ill-informed rant irritates me, and I'll tell you why. ISS set out with clear goals: Develop empty areas of 0.0, so that a new generation of EVE players outside the traditional territorial alliances can experience 0.0 life. 7 outposts and 2,000 members later, they have been REMARKABLY successful in these simple and honest goals. They have changed EVE forever, in fact, more so than almost ANY territorial alliance ever has, or ever will. And they have done all this, whilst tip-toeing around the egos of the territorial alliances with remarkable diplomatic success (for the most part). ISS required tact, intelligence, and dedication for relatively little reward. But what a success they have been. They may have been, until they agreed to take EC- over.. this is when few began to doubt their neutrality. Now living in LV space? lol its not developing unclaimed space, its helping to develop of certain alliance's space, nothing else, as it doesnt open the space/station to neutrals/n00bs! ------------------ yay, the Deimos has been saved!
Devian 666 Snakes in a Pod	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:22:00 - [185] Originally by: Manas The ISS members and corporations who keep the stations running do so not out of profit (it isn’t really profitable with the shares distributed), but because it opens up interesting gameplay. Running an open outpost and market in 0.0 space is an interesting and difficult challenge. With a large and open alliance like ISS, there will always be loose cannons, but the ISS leadership does a fine job of kicking troublemakers, smoothing ruffled feathers, and making policy adjustments where necessary. Hopefully aggrieved parties will give the ISS leadership a chance to work. I wish to give thanks to ISS for giving many small corporations and newer players the opportunity to experience 0.0 space without giving up their identity. They are an incubator for many future great 0.0 space corps. Thanks to the ISS diplomats and pilots who are trying to keep places like Cassini/EC-P8R even halfway sane. And thanks for making Eve more interesting by adding some variety in 0.0 space alliances. Now back to the hating.. No a station isn't really profitable when the shares are distributed. It's only profitable to the share holders. Hang on the station is profitable and the profits are paid out. Simply if it wasn't profitable you wouldn't be there. This is ISS propaganda. Oh yes you kick out those loose cannon alts from ISS. What a shame. Smooth ruffled feathers = lying Policy adjustments = moving away from neutrality Give the ISS leadership a chance to work(?) = to make more isk for themselves while you've pulled the wool over the eyes of the neighbouring alliances. You wish to thank ISS for allowing smacktalking carebears into 0.0 where they should be more polite to those who pod them? Enough ISS propaganda! You are a hostile entity in the north and the south. Alt post removed - post with your main! If this is your main, see the rules for details on how to stop your posts getting removed - Ductoris Er, you believed the people saying that I'm an alt? St
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:35:00 - [186] Originally by: Lunamariea Hawke Now we are getting somewhere.However maybe ammend the first line so that any corps giving intel are kicked. I think perhaps the main problem of all this is the fact that ISS are in both the North and South at once. Maybe Iss should have different divisions I.e Northern Division. Despite the bravado coming from some pilots here many ISS/d2/fla/iron are friends and often work together in the north. Iss pilots become friends with whoever is local thus Northern ISS would be unlikely to cause harm to D2. Southern ISS pilots however would be friendly with enemies of D2. If you can get over the political backstoy, then that has the potential to work. How about taking it to the next level? Each ISS station (or stations in some cases where they are 1j apart) has it's own alliance. ISS can set +10 to its other entities; but allows for regional differences. It would certainly make standings easier, allow ISS to remain a potentially 'neutral' entity, but also encourage other alliances to have more faith. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:39:00 - [187] Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/10/2006 19:40:02 Originally by: Devian 666 No a station isn't really profitable when the shares are distributed. It's only profitable to the share holders. Hang on the station is profitable and the profits are paid out. Simply if it wasn't profitable you wouldn't be there. This is ISS propaganda. Hmmm. I'm going to keep this simple for you, I think you need it. Monthy revenue from the outpost = circa 1bn ISK. Monthly cost of 12 large sov keeping POS to ISS = circa 500m ISK Revenue from outpost goes ENTIRELY to shareholders, the majority of whom are outside ISS. Total profit from running EC-P outpost = nothing. It COSTS ISS 500m a month to manage and this expense is NOT recovered from revenue which is paid directly to shareholders. Now, given this new information, do you now see why his post had merit, wheras yours is just an ill-informed rant?
Rei Toai Faaip De Oiad	Posted - 2006.10.17 21:07:00 - [188] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Rei Toai ISS HAS NO POWER - while others have. and it has nothing to do with the neighbours beeing pirates, tyrans and so on - it has only to do with flaws in the concept of ISS. This sort of ill-informed rant irritates me, and I'll tell you why. ISS set out with clear goals: Develop empty areas of 0.0, so that a new generation of EVE players outside the traditional territorial alliances can experience 0.0 life. 7 outposts and 2,000 members later, they have been REMARKABLY successful in these simple and honest goals. They have changed EVE forever, in fact, more so than almost ANY territorial alliance ever has, or ever will. And they have done all this, whilst tip-toeing around the egos of the territorial alliances with remarkable diplomatic success (for the most part). ISS required tact, intelligence, and dedication for relatively little reward. But what a success they have been. So by saying what you have said, you only show yourself up, as someone who doesnt have the first clue about what ISS is actually about, what its goals where, or what it has achieved. i don't doubt the success of ISS - tbh ... i appreciate what ISS achieved in 0.0 ... but my point is imho still valid - ISS and its success relies essentially on it's neighbours good will. as you said by yourself - "tip-toeing around the egos of the territorial alliances with remarkable diplomatic success" - and i doubt you mean with this something like persuasion to play those "egos" against each other (if so - well .. then good luck that they never will find it out ) .. so don't see my "rant" as a critic on the idea behind ISS .. you should see it as a critic at those who think ISS got "victimized" by their neighbours. ISS had success with such a "underdog role" - but don't expect others to be nice to ISS if someone of the members ****s up - as ISS is no real threat to it's neighbours, it doesn't have any power in the sense of "equilibrium of fear" regarding other alliances. this is the flaw in the concept i mentioned. you had success with this concept so far - but don't expect it will necessarily work in the future - ISS has no real ability to act, more like the need to react to demands of it's neighbours. maybe i'm wrong, but that's way i perceive it, with the informations i got. so stop telling me i have no clue and better give me some good reasons not to think this way about ISS. __________________________________ I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to know.
Devian 666 Snakes in a Pod	Posted - 2006.10.17 21:27:00 - [189] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/10/2006 19:40:02 Originally by: Devian 666 No a station isn't really profitable when the shares are distributed. It's only profitable to the share holders. Hang on the station is profitable and the profits are paid out. Simply if it wasn't profitable you wouldn't be there. This is ISS propaganda. Hmmm. I'm going to keep this simple for you, I think you need it. Monthy revenue from the outpost = circa 1bn ISK. Monthly cost of 12 large sov keeping POS to ISS = circa 500m ISK Revenue from outpost goes ENTIRELY to shareholders, the majority of whom are outside ISS. Total profit from running EC-P outpost = nothing. It COSTS ISS 500m a month to manage and this expense is NOT recovered from revenue which is paid directly to shareholders. Now, given this new information, do you now see why his post had merit, wheras yours is just an ill-informed rant? That allows for the station accounting. Now if what you were saying was the entire picture then ISS would be losing 500m per month and would soon be liquidated due to having no funds. Hmmm, I don't see that happening any time soon. The spin off benefits of having the station include mining, ratting and industrial sales. No one will fork out 500m isk and not expect some benefit either currently or in the future. Selling the shares to the stations is just a risk mitigation measure which releases ISS isk for other uses. You can now continue to add more spin to the ISS propaganda machine. Alt post removed - post with your main! If this is your main, see the rules for details on how to stop your posts getting removed - Ductoris Er, you believed the people saying that I'm an alt? St
Manas The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.17 21:55:00 - [190] Quote: The spin off benefits of having the station include mining, ratting and industrial sales. No one will fork out 500m isk and not expect some benefit either currently or in the future. Many play styles donÆt revolve around ISK, but ôrole-playö for the want of a better word. ôThe Graduatesö (my corp) was formed out of ôEve Universityö as a way to help corporations and players to gain experience with life in 0.0 space, and new players to learn a little about PvP. So far ISS & management of ISS Cassini has indeed rewarded me in this fashion, although my wallet has seen better days. I am sure the other station managers can tell similar stories. About TGRAD
tyrol E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.17 23:47:00 - [191] Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Originally by: BiONetworks Well see you on the battlefield ISS, hope you brought the tinfoil hats Note : Tinfoil hats are available for sale in all BoB owned stations. Buy yours today ! hmm, im trying to dock to pick mine up but i keep getting a message about BoB not likeing me or something, wtf??!!?
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.18 00:43:00 - [192] Originally by: FireFoxx80 We have such terrorists as D00M, YNC.... Who you calling a terrorist? How is what we do, any different to what you do?
Dragerest Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.18 02:39:00 - [193] just shooty shooty have fun and .. yeah thats it ________________________________________________________ For your tech 2 needs www.evetrust.com
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.18 04:34:00 - [194] Lol Luna cry more. Their diplomacy sucks lol? Yah it usually does but in this instance i think d2's diplos finally got it right. It's best to let your guns do your negotiations tbh. In rust we trust!!!
Nixda Caldari The Red Rage	Posted - 2006.10.18 07:27:00 - [195] Originally by: BenjaminBarker Originally by: Audrea Ok lets take a hypothetic case: I am in alliance X, which is in war with LV, but respects the ISS neutrality and what they try to do in eve. Now I go to tenerifis to shoot any LV; ISS tells me to leave its restricted space, I dont leave, but I dont aggro ISS either. Now they will (according to that agreement and what you said), fire at me to protect LV. So much for the neutrality. The issue of how many corps allowed, does not matter! what matters is their actions. Take a look at the area in question... it's like 8 systems on a dead end chain. There isn't a single LV pilot or LV asset (save the outpost that's under ISS control). It isn't LV sovereignty (ISS claims sovereignty to reduce POS fuel costs). The ONLY reason for a non-iss pilot to enter that area is to attack ISS. Neutrality IS NOT Pacifism, do you really expect ISS to eject and let you pod them instead of protecting their assets? If you want to * about a neutral alliance paying your enemy for use of their space, you're an idiot. How about selling ships or modules to your enemy on an open market, is that not neutral? What about buying from them in empire, is that a breach of neutrality? Are you going to go wardec empire corps that mine ice that ends up in your enemies POS's? Just because your LV is smart enough to make the most out of their space doesn't mean ISS is not neutral. You want to make billions off of ISS as well - then offer them a secure portion of profitable space and charge them for it's use. I doubt they'll pass on the offer. If they did, then you can question their neutrality. A post back a ways sums it up nicely - something along the lines of 'D2 doesn't need to justify their reasons'. And they're right - they can go to war for any reason they want, but the moment they try to claim that ISS isn't neutral they better back that up. So far all I've seen is unsupported claims of ISS reporting D2 movements to their enemies, and a smacktard who got his ass kicked, after asking for it mind you, and then complaining to his betters. You're just a bunch of pirates looking for more blinky - and not surprisingly you're using their same arguments. Neutrality != Pacifism Wow, its the perfect solution. Just rent out your space to a supposedly neutral party and have them make money from it for you and your space cant be attacked anymore because its "neutral". You can make money from it, finance your wars against your enemies with the money, and it cant be attacked because its "neutral". Surely everyone must agree on this idea of great common sense. /sarcasm
Zooish	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:59:00 - [196] Edited by: Zooish on 18/10/2006 15:59:11 Stop acting like turds .. Either attack ISS or move on but anyone who disputes they have help "us" new players need to be put down. Yeah its hard being neutral but there again all you "drip****s" just go "shooty shooty" and then whine on the forums. Do something, nothing or move on but get off the forms.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:10:00 - [197] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 17/10/2006 19:40:02 Originally by: Devian 666 No a station isn't really profitable when the shares are distributed. It's only profitable to the share holders. Hang on the station is profitable and the profits are paid out. Simply if it wasn't profitable you wouldn't be there. This is ISS propaganda. Hmmm. I'm going to keep this simple for you, I think you need it. Monthy revenue from the outpost = circa 1bn ISK. Monthly cost of 12 large sov keeping POS to ISS = circa 500m ISK Revenue from outpost goes ENTIRELY to shareholders, the majority of whom are outside ISS. Total profit from running EC-P outpost = nothing. It COSTS ISS 500m a month to manage and this expense is NOT recovered from revenue which is paid directly to shareholders. Now, given this new information, do you now see why his post had merit, wheras yours is just an ill-informed rant? That allows for the station accounting. Now if what you were saying was the entire picture then ISS would be losing 500m per month and would soon be liquidated due to having no funds. Hmmm, I don't see that happening any time soon. The spin off benefits of having the station include mining, ratting and industrial sales. No one will fork out 500m isk and not expect some benefit either currently or in the future. Selling the shares to the stations is just a risk mitigation measure which releases ISS isk for other uses. You can now continue to add more spin to the ISS propaganda machine. You havent a clue what you are talking about, let me explain why. ISS have not just sunk 500m ISK a month into the EC-P outpost, they have spent BILLIONS defending the system. For no ISK gain. Why do they do this? Because they have goals and ideals which you clearly don't understand, but which the alliance holds dear. They do it because they wish to realise their goals of opening up 0.0 to new generations of EVE players. Your point about ratting and mining is frankly rubbish. That area of Pure Blind is not claimed, ANYONE can rat in it. Also their stations do not have refinery facilities so mining is out the question. As for why they havent gone bankrupt - ISS make enough money from POS and Industrial activity to more than cover the COSTS (and they are costs) associated with running a neutral trading outpost on behalf of their shareholders. Do you understand now?
Devian 666 Snakes in a Pod	Posted - 2006.10.18 21:18:00 - [198] Yes I understand from what you have said is that I am correct. I think the ISS strategy is effectively executed and presents a significant military threat. Alt post removed - post with your main! If this is your main, see the rules for details on how to stop your posts getting removed - Ductoris Er, you believed the people saying that I'm an alt? St
Boukharine Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.20 00:18:00 - [199] Well , that confirms what an ISS member told me yesterday - this diplomatic situation is a terrible mess no wonder ISS lets me dock in some places and shoots me in others. Please , in the interest of wandering newbies... stop messing with their minds so much.
Darth Maule Pitch Black Incorporated Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:18:00 - [200] I noticed that during my stay down in imensia region that ppl would use iss stations as a base for agressive opps.That dosent sound very neutral does it ?
Paktieth Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:12:00 - [201] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Originally by: FireFoxx80 We have such terrorists as D00M, YNC.... quite right too....EXAN are the refined,cultured members of Triumvirate.....
Xavier Cardde DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:17:00 - [202] to me this is just showing how relations in 0.0 are going to hell in a freighter sized hand-basket. its quite fascinating although I do sympathize with ISS's mission and purpose in EVE.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:35:00 - [203] Originally by: Darth Maule I noticed that during my stay down in imensia region that ppl would use iss stations as a base for agressive opps.That dosent sound very neutral does it ? If you looked up the word 'neutral' in a dictionary, you would see that it does.
Rainbow Jesus Minmatar Grief Tactics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:39:00 - [204] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Darth Maule I noticed that during my stay down in imensia region that ppl would use iss stations as a base for agressive opps.That dosent sound very neutral does it ? If you looked up the word 'neutral' in a dictionary, you would see that it does. Bitter Dog, you listen up.... WRONG! He's not stupid; he's possessed by a retarded ghost people, so pay him no mind.
splattercat Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:41:00 - [205] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Darth Maule I noticed that during my stay down in imensia region that ppl would use iss stations as a base for agressive opps.That dosent sound very neutral does it ? If you looked up the word 'neutral' in a dictionary, you would see that it does. Butter you are 100% correct on that, but haveing supplied a base of ops for hostile ppl only 4 jumps say form the allanes that run a area you ARE going to get a certan amout of bad will..... and tbh this is the min problem IMO ISS are faceing. ShadowDragon > LOL i never said "we dont log"
insanebe Caldari carebear Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:20:00 - [206] to behonest this reminds me of the Bob attack on Trust because they sold capital ships to G, its a bit hypocritical for D2 to do the same to iss cos they have a buisiness deal with LV knowledge is power.... guard it well
D75485 Underworld Zombies	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:06:00 - [207] well LV gets a lot of isk of them so why not have ISS work for LV
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:32:00 - [208] Forgive my ignorance, but how does LV present any threat to the northern alliances? It is on the completely opposite side of the galaxy from D2, IRON, etc. How does ISS working with LV have anything to do with the North? The North's complaints against ISS to date have been rather half-baked, as if they are not being completely honest about what they want from ISS and why. Or perhaps they aren't being honest to themselves about what they want. Either way, the North would be better off formulating some specific demands and asking for them directly. ISS leadership has shown enormous flexibility and willingness to listen and accommodate. D2 and company should spell out exactly what they want and work with ISS to make it happen. *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance
ace	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:32:00 - [209] I have followed this thread with interest and dissapointment especially with the current situation, I generally do not post on these topics as invariably it turns out a flamefest for all the anti ISS players who doubt our motives. I have no hidden agendas and cannot be bothered with " ISS SPIN" as some people would like to call it I say it as I see it. My remit for me since joining ISS has been to develop relationships with our local alliances and help provide 0.0 access to players so that they to can experience life out of the empire nursery Unfortunately there are a few ISS who choose to make up their own rules out of the terms agreed and with it ensure the whole organisation suffers. In all fairness D2 and IRON have not contacted me with specific problems with "rogue" members. If found guilty would be kicked. One post earlier in the thread mentioned that ISS knew RISK were setting up in Pure Blind, to you I say yes we did however, they like any other corp were given the same response as per the charter. We do not claim space and cannot prevent you from setting up operations. What you do here is your business. Another post was with regards to Outpost docking, all piots are welcome to dock but understandibly the ones who continually shoot ISS or other pilots in and around the outpost systems have docking rights revoked. Thank you for your time ACE ISS Regional Co-ordinator Pure Blind
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:58:00 - [210] Originally by: Butter Dog If you looked up the word 'neutral' in a dictionary, you would see that it does. That's bull****. One of the Hague conventions quite clearly states that neutrality means no use of the neutral parties land or facilities. Dunno where you digged your info up but there's only one authority on neutrality in armed conflicts really. IF we want to use RL analogies.

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