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How far would you go to protect your corp/alliance?

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Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:50:00 - [31] Spy's suck just like scammers, but it's part of the game if done IG... Any OOG action like the op posted would qualify for an asskicking in RL IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.18 17:38:00 - [32] "Hacking" is written into the game too...should we also take that outside of the game? How about if another EvE player lives next door, and I peek through their window? What about corp thieves? Can I go steal CYVOK's PC...that would certainly cripple them! Obviously I'm reaching a bit, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere, because frankly, some of you people take this crap a little to seriously and take far to much pleasure in ruining other people's fun for it to be healthy. FREEE is Recruiting
Rodney Caston Messerschmitt Shipyards The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:08:00 - [33] To ignore any legal competitive advantage is a competitive loss.
Sebo Darrens Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:13:00 - [34] Originally by: NATMav "Hacking" is written into the game too...should we also take that outside of the game? How about if another EvE player lives next door, and I peek through their window? What about corp thieves? Can I go steal CYVOK's PC...that would certainly cripple them! Obviously I'm reaching a bit, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere, because frankly, some of you people take this crap a little to seriously and take far to much pleasure in ruining other people's fun for it to be healthy. The line is simple - anything gotten by in game methods/alt characters etc is legal, anything using external tools to gain illegal access (hacking, theft, etc) is illegal
Darko1107 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:25:00 - [35] Having a spy on the enemies TS is equivalent of using a maphack in an RTS game imo. ------------------ Sig removed, please keep it under the 24,000 byte limit, if you have any questions please email [email protected] - Xorus
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Darko1107 Having a spy on the enemies TS is equivalent of using a maphack in an RTS game imo. No, more like knowing the map very well, and having special building/unit to scout the acivities all around the map. Starcraft had such scanner, Red Alert 2 had, Generals etc. Why do you think having such advantage in EVE is diffrent? ------------------ yay, the Deimos has been saved!
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:30:00 - [37] Originally by: fuze Originally by: Blacklight BoB's message has always been 100% clear. We play the game to the fullest of our abilities and yes that does include the use of spies, espionage and sabotage against you. So were do you guys draw the line? Getting a TS/VS account under false name or alt? Hacking a TS/VS account? Using exploits with risk of being banned? Hacking websites? DDOS websites? Infect websites with worms/virii? Using trojans to aquire account details? None of the above. Getting a spy into a corp and having them freely given TS and/or forum access is acceptable in my mind, other than that all the things you list are totally reprehensible.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: fuze Originally by: Blacklight BoB's message has always been 100% clear. We play the game to the fullest of our abilities and yes that does include the use of spies, espionage and sabotage against you. So were do you guys draw the line? Getting a TS/VS account under false name or alt? Hacking a TS/VS account? Using exploits with risk of being banned? Hacking websites? DDOS websites? Infect websites with worms/virii? Using trojans to aquire account details? None of the above. Getting a spy into a corp and having them freely given TS and/or forum access is acceptable in my mind, other than that all the things you list are totally reprehensible. Freely would imply that they told people they were also in Bob. I have a feeling they didnt, hence the deciet. In my mind anything done along these lines ingame is all good, given that espinoage is part of the game and ccp allows alt characters. However once you start lying and deceiving individuals to gain access to off game servers people have crossed a legal boundry. It will never be prosecuted or anything but in my mind once someone takes it outside the game, they have taken it to far. Just my opinion though...
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Serapis Aote Freely would imply that they told people they were also in Bob. I have a feeling they didnt, hence the deciet. That's pretty much the definition of spying yes. So what are you going to do as a spy? "Oh no I couldn't possibly accept TS and Forum access dear CEO!". That's not going to work very well is it? Taking spying out of the picture entirely would take a lot of interesting, challenging (yes for some corps and alliances it is a real challenge getting a spy in and maintaining it, D2/G have booted about a dozen BNC spies over the last two years, kudos on their security) and entertaining content from the game at large in my opinion.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:07:00 - [40] Aw c'mon, IMP and it's predecessor in collective insanity CA both ahve this nice and ready history of accusing juwst about everyone that ever fought them ingame of DDOSsing their TS, h4xing their forums and do whatever else is technically possible or even impossible. There's never been proof, these guys are just damn sore losers. It wasn't any different when I was part of CA either. The same childish accusations against everyone that came along and actually won a fight from them. No of course that couldn't have anything to do with them being better, or smarter at that time. It was due to another FA/Evol/SA/CFS/enteryournamehere lamer hacking their TS/Forums?cleints/node. Whatever. Grow up. If you've got proof, or even some kind of chatlog that could in any way be seen as such given enough consumption of the same root beer ASCN like to drink, then MAIL it to me. I'd love to see it. Old blog
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:29:00 - [41] Guys do not say Alliance X did Attack Y to Alliance Z. It will turn into personal attacks sooner or later. Also while some alliances are a little more famous than others of doing such tactics. They may have being the independent action of the player and the leaders are not able to do anything, because the person does not own up or they themsevles are unable to track it. This will go on with and without the apporoval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Vladimir Yuchenko Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.20 02:54:00 - [42] DoS attacks are effective against an opponents TS/Vent, or website (if you somehow though that would be worth it), but against individuals/corporations it would require a good deal information regarding individual members IPs, OS type version & services. Unless your are talking about dropping regional/specific routers that would disconnect a certain geographic region or service provider. However, that would require a large zombie network. As someone mentioned previously socail engineering is likely the most effective (in terms of a time/cost to benefit ratio). If someone were to attack specific routers by hacking into them and gaining control they could easily disconnect reroute certain network segments. Anything of this level of course though requires a certain degree of skill and balls seeing as when you begin to control and disconnect large network segments you will very quickly run into informed and skilled network administrators that usually can spot that type of activity fairly quickly, not to mention investigative agencies of various governments. I should rephrase attacking a certain individual with a DoS attack is not hard as long as you have some basic information. Obtaining that information may pose a problem in certain cases. Of course attacking the Eve Online network itself is always an option, but beyond the technical difficulties one would face. You'd have to be able to interface either with the Eve servers directly or with some other backend administration type applications. I've have no personal knowledge of how hard it would be to insert malicious code into the Eve cluster itself, but while possibly not posing a programming challenge it would require a certain amount of timing and knowledge of the code base. Not to mention that unless it goes undetected for a while backups should fix any issues of that sort. Another option and possibly the best one would be to target the GMs directly. Whether it be through socail engineering or direct attacks on their home networks/less protected networks connected to the Eve cluster. If successful the ability to control a GM account and or simply retrieve whatever information is availible to them would give a fairly significant advantage I would assume. Of course I have no knowledge of exactly what access GMs have or how its authenticated etc... but the possibility is there. Of course if one were truly brilliant and could simulate atleast basic functions of Eve a man in the middle attack could be truly brutal. Now this requires a good deal of planning, timing, and programming skill, but would likely be able to fool an opponent for long enough so that they would incur great losses if say this were done in the middle of a fleet battle. But now that is getting into the realm of "fantasy" hacking where the time preperation and context become so dependent that is becomes impractical to plan for. Forgive me if any of this information is a bit out of date or unclear, its been a few years since I was invovled in network security.
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Vladimir Yuchenko Of course if one were truly brilliant and could simulate atleast basic functions of Eve a man in the middle attack could be truly brutal. Now this requires a good deal of planning, timing, and programming skill, but would likely be able to fool an opponent for long enough so that they would incur great losses if say this were done in the middle of a fleet battle. But now that is getting into the realm of "fantasy" hacking where the time preperation and context become so dependent that is becomes impractical to plan for. Not as much as you would think, regardless, this is still a very odd post for these forums :P
Vladimir Yuchenko Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:46:00 - [44] Well I was thinking of a MoTM attack where the attacker actually tries to simulate Eve for a brief period of time. Just hijacking the other users connection would not be nearly as hard, I would imagine you'd want to do this in combination with a DoS attack so the victim couldn't sign back on and foil your dastardly plans. Now if you can do this with hunt, I'll be truly impressed. =)
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.20 06:50:00 - [45] Originally by: evistin This will go on with and without the approval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. Agreed. But somehow BoB keeps denying it happened on their turf as well, immediately screeming for proof. Thats just silly or being plain naive. Same goes for calling whiners sore loosers. If someone was banned its impossible to proof it since its not allowed to talk about it. Yet we all know some cases that leaked from GM or friends of banned people who knew what happened. Yet BoB seems to put so much effort in denying all of this that makes one wonder why.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:42:00 - [46] Originally by: Vladimir Yuchenko Of course if one were truly brilliant and could simulate atleast basic functions of Eve a man in the middle attack could be truly brutal. Now this requires a good deal of planning, timing, and programming skill, but would likely be able to fool an opponent for long enough so that they would incur great losses if say this were done in the middle of a fleet battle. But now that is getting into the realm of "fantasy" hacking where the time preperation and context become so dependent that is becomes impractical to plan for. This is somewhat too easy, IRC client, a packet sniffer and a few packets of the command to transfer ISK to target player. The whole program would be well under 500k. U torrent is an example of a small program without lots of abilities. I am currently studying Network security and its scary at the easy of attack. An IRC client with dos prompt access = DDOS system. I would be very defensive if I claim that any alliance conducted such activities. Its like saying person X is dealing violated someone when he did not. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:48:00 - [47] Originally by: fuze Originally by: evistin This will go on with and without the approval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. Agreed. But somehow BoB keeps denying it happened on their turf as well, immediately screeming for proof. Thats just silly or being plain naive. Same goes for calling whiners sore loosers. If someone was banned its impossible to proof it since its not allowed to talk about it. Yet we all know some cases that leaked from GM or friends of banned people who knew what happened. Yet BoB seems to put so much effort in denying all of this that makes one wonder why. Because I'm fairly sick of the nonsense. If people post stupid allegations that are ridiculous in their own right then I'm all down for having fun with them on the forums. But Cupdeez there simply said: "BoB ha4xes and I have proof." Well, if he can't post it, let him mail it to me. As far as every alliance having bad apples in it that do stuff like this. I'll be very cross and call bull** on that too. In fact, I'll call bull** on most alliances ever having been attacked in such a way at all, let alone by someone within the Eve-Online community. Old blog
Hast Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:56:00 - [48] Originally by: fuze Originally by: evistin This will go on with and without the approval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. Agreed. But somehow BoB keeps denying it happened on their turf as well, immediately screeming for proof. Thats just silly or being plain naive. Same goes for calling whiners sore loosers. If someone was banned its impossible to proof it since its not allowed to talk about it. Yet we all know some cases that leaked from GM or friends of banned people who knew what happened. Yet BoB seems to put so much effort in denying all of this that makes one wonder why. the reason we are "screaming" for proof, is because he claimed that the GM's told him that they banned someone. that just wont happen, because they arent allowed to tell. Second... how can a ISP unrelated to EVE know that a person, on a different ISP, in a different country, is a member of BoB. but still, since he's in a different country, not press charges... If he can find out what the poor sod had for breakfast yesterday, it shouldnt be too hard to prosecute him, now should it? And as Rod said, Imperium and their merry men have always screamed exploit at the smallest of thing, and fabricated lie after lie, one more insane then the other. Your in LV now, go bug chow or velios on TS and let them tell you a few stories of Xirt. They will have you laughing in stitches for days on end. And you can get nebba to dig up the xirt soundboard aswell Originally by: CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Hast And you can get nebba to dig up the xirt soundboard aswell I know it. I've been around. Seen things and heard things. 'there is always deniability' is engraved in the back of my head. Something tells me you guys remember this too.
djNME DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 21:49:00 - [50] Edited by: djNME on 20/10/2006 21:49:00 Hey, I think spys on others ts and such are super lame. I think most of EVE agree's with me. However looks like most of BoB does not. Wonder why. I mean; why play game of solitaire if you know what the deck is going to do each time? It would be pointless, then again a handful of people would still end up doing it. djNME
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:47:00 - [51] Originally by: evistin I have heard stories from people about the usally logoffski, lag jamming, node crashing tactics, but recently I have heard a darker side, those technically we are not allowed to do. TS/Vent SeverHacking Website Hacking/Attacks Denial of Serivce attacks Stealing of passwords to read other peoples mail, etc etc. I was wondering have you guys heard of such stories and how far have you guys taken your seucrity measures to defend yourself? I can't see many being interested in RULE statements. But for the record RULE does not, and will not support these activities, sanction them, turn a blind eye to them, or in any way knowingly benefit from them, for as long as I remain a member. As for defence against them we have a backup vent server. Corp BBSs are separate from alliance BBS, DoS attacks... well, we don't use IRC, and while I guess most of our members have some form of IM, there isn't any real IM community within us, password stealing etc can't be covered at an alliance level. It comes from people either setting up bad passwords, brute force attacks, or people sharing accounts. There's only so much you can do to protect yourself really. But at least if we started to become subject to such attacks we would know how to limit the damage and some preventative measures.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.21 00:24:00 - [52] If you guys really hate BOB for their spies, go read the "Art of War" by Sun Tzu. Now come back and tell me you don't intend to use them yourselves now. We all agree that these attacks happen, and must be defended against. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 01:46:00 - [53] Originally by: djNME Edited by: djNME on 20/10/2006 21:49:00 Hey, I think spys on others ts and such are super lame. I think most of EVE agree's with me. However looks like most of BoB does not. Wonder why. I mean; why play game of solitaire if you know what the deck is going to do each time? It would be pointless, then again a handful of people would still end up doing it. djNME If using spies and TS recordings was the only thing that will win us the war we would have anhilated ASCN sicne day 1 , this aint solitare or anything simple as it , spying is just a minor part of the war , whats wining the war is the dedication of BOB pilots and leaders period. "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
patteSatan Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.21 05:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Blacklight Hacking, cheating, exploiting, DoS attacks etc etc.. have no place in an online game especially one like Eve where the harsh environment allows you to inflict enough hurt on your enemies without resorting to such lame tactics. Spying in all forms, including forum and TS access I find 100% acceptable. The prevention of these tactics lies firmly in the hand of the corp/alliance spied upon. Personally I believe the espionage, counter-espionage, propaganda wars, betrayals, sabotage etc etc.. add a real spice to the game and up the level of competition. The art to playing with all those 'dirty tricks' (in my opinion) is to take them in the right context, fight full on with the absolute maximum dedication and resources available to you in order to win but be able to say 'well fought' and move on afterwards. I usually dont like BoB posts, but BL really puts those "ugly things" into words, I, as an old UT player, and thats "Unrealtournament" from 1999, not the ugly ones with numbers, sure we used "ugly" tacticts, a thing real common was: asking a friend to the clan we were going to meet, to check what weaknessess (<spelling) that clan had, and, in fact, at that time, an opponent on the TS was a great thing, you even asked if you could drop by, when they trained, hell, you even got lucky yourself!!!! An opponent wanted to be on the TS!!!! As I can see, the latter is lame now, as you "sneak" people in, paranoia ftw, but if I have a friend in, for an example, IAC, wich I DO have friends in, or BoB/FIX/MC/ASCN, where I dont have friends, but people I can "theoretically" throw ideas/accusations and discuss, its, dear players, up to ME, what I tell my own corp, my alliance, and the people I discuss with, have the same options as me. Eve is NOT a pvp-game, nor is it a "carebear" game, nor a strategic game, but ALL of those 3, and more.
Dhan Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.21 06:51:00 - [55] To those for whom TS spying is `the way I play the game`.... It's the same as playing football and having a microphone planted on one of the players on the opposing team, and hearing the plans for every play before it happens. Lame. Befriending someone then stealing from them or corp or offlining POS and such, also lame.
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:58:00 - [56] Ingame spying is part of the game mechanics. It's nasty but its even mentioned on the orginal CD box so I guess CCP intended to be part of the game from day 1. And you're not forced to play this game, and you're not even forced to play a certain style in this game. But since its a MMO game you're dealing with other people who have their view on how they play the game combined with CCP enforcing the EULA you agree with when you pay for playing the game. Using spying on TS server is something else. Its a OOC mechanism that can be used as an addition for in game mechanism. If you combine it with another OOC mechanism like having multiple accounts the sum of both would be accessing TS with a 2nd account for aiding a prime account would be an OOC and outgame advantage at first sight. It still could work as a IOC mechanism if the 2nd account would receive payments from the prime for its spying activities. Just see it like a special type of mercenary thats paid for snooping in the ennemys camp. Giving username/password for accessing TS server would be totally not done and should be regarded as social engineering form of hacking. People who are caught doing this should be subjected for a harassment petition IMHO. And even be subjected for legal actions due to hacking the TS server. Same goes for recording the TS conversations and spreading them. There is no in game mechanism for sharing those recordings so there is no conceivable way of a spy handing it over to its contractor. There was some point about this that legally its allowed by the british telecommunication law but at this I beg to differ since the access to the TS server was given to someone who lied about its intensions. To use a written transcript preferrably by the spy and given in game to its contractor would be valid for other use on forums etc. Problem is that in the past those TS recordings were spreaded and even used in frapsed video's. Still I think anyone who's offended by someone else whos posting TS recordings should have the right to seek legal actions for having him/her stop doing this. Not when it comes to written transcripts of these. To people who's obsession with proof this could be a problem because others could claim the proof was fabricated. Only a few realize that with some advanced tooling you can fabricate TS recordings as well. Same goes for frapsed video. So effectively any TS recording or frapsed video isn't actually 100% proof as well. Still that's just a price that has to be paid for the fact that you want to stay true to the game and its mechanics on how to present your spying results to the public. This matter will change though when ingame chatting comes available though. Then ingame chatting is become an ingame mechanic which is linked to the logged in character. There still isn't a way to share recordings ingame though. But that's the same for frapsed videos. (would make lag even worse as well)
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 15:22:00 - [57] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 21/10/2006 15:31:14 Well, the matter is subjective and gets rather complicated and nitpicky tbh, but i'll try explain my viewpopint on it for you Fuze. I regard the defeinition of "Eve gameplay" to be the experience determined by the total of factors directly related to what you do in the Eve fantasy world, and anything that serves to facilitate or enhance that experience. Other people choose to define Eve gameplay by the boundaries of the game software. Some include the Eve Online forums, and that's where most seem to stop. However, if you for the sake of discussion grant my definition as being a possible and allowable one (regardless of morality, but judging by logic and law), then any teamspeak channel or private forum section primarily used to enhance or facilitate Eve gameplay becomes fair game for spying. If you take that vieuw, TS spying and forum spying are basically the same thing as the breaking of any promise or agreement made within the context of the Eve fantasy universe. In short: it's a matter of trust. Imo, no violation of real world privacy is involved that goes beyond the violation occurring in other cases where trust in violated ingame. Since the violation of trust is neither illegal nor falls beyond the bounds of EULA or TOS, and can actually be said to be very fitting within the context of a war-simulation game with a high degree of competitiveness, you can further reduce the moral factor involved to the level of that involved in a game of Poker. Bliffing or lying in a game of Poker is far from illegal, nor widely seen as morally reprehensible. Old blog
Ysabelle nKataros Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 17:53:00 - [58] This behaviour has been going on for a long time. In the first Caldari Championships, KAOS's TS server was put out of action just a few seconds before the match against The Five, the semifinals match. The server administrator confirmed that the server crash was not due to malfunction. BoB: When we have fleet battles, our killboard crashes
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 18:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Dhan To those for whom TS spying is `the way I play the game`.... It's the same as playing football and having a microphone planted on one of the players on the opposing team, and hearing the plans for every play before it happens. Lame. Befriending someone then stealing from them or corp or offlining POS and such, also lame. If you are a football fan you should know that every team have their own spies that can get info on the other teams players and tactics etc. So what was your point? You Will Cry My Name
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 19:07:00 - [60] Hey, I wonder what is going to happen if VOIP system been introduced becomes more used then TS, what leg will you have to stand on then

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