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evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.18 14:39:00 - [1] I have heard stories from people about the usally logoffski, lag jamming, node crashing tactics, but recently I have heard a darker side, those technically we are not allowed to do. TS/Vent SeverHacking Website Hacking/Attacks Denial of Serivce attacks Stealing of passwords to read other peoples mail, etc etc. I was wondering have you guys heard of such stories and how far have you guys taken your seucrity measures to defend yourself? ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 14:44:00 - [2] Well if you use spys to aquire TS/Vent passwords. IE placing a alt in a hostile corp and then them giving you the details to use, then I see no problem. The other things you mentioned never.
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 14:47:00 - [3] Edited by: Sir JoJo on 18/10/2006 14:47:18 spying and using the accses u get from ingame yes.. but all that hacking stuff forget it. its a game not cia its a disgrace for Minmatar
Matthew Munro Gallente Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.18 14:50:00 - [4] Edited by: Matthew Munro on 18/10/2006 14:54:49 Originally by: evistin TS/Vent SeverHacking Website Hacking/Attacks Denial of Serivce attacks Stealing of passwords to read other peoples mail, etc etc. All of these are illegal, if you were stupid enough to try any of these, you better know what you are doing else enjoy you time in jail. The legal system is quite harse on "hacking" yet doesn't care if CEO scam millions. Also unless you are very skilled, social engineering is so much easier, and fun
Lunas Feelgood Honey Bunnies	Posted - 2006.10.18 14:55:00 - [5] Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 18/10/2006 14:55:09 Using alt as spyes in other corp/alliance is lame.. Also using spyes to access forums and TS is prop the most lamest you can do.. Having a spy on other alliance TS so you can hear exactly what FC are telling them is the most pathetic thing todo and is only done by others that are simply imcompetent in any ways of fleet battle.. TS spyes can completly **** up an alliance and is seriuosly destroying people gameplay.. Actually i dont even see the point of having a spy on another TS simply becuase it takes the fun out of pvp.. Whats the fun in pvp if you knwo what the other side gonna do?? However many people actually do that and im consider them cowards and incompetent..
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.18 14:57:00 - [6] I agree with Lunas. [EVE TASK BAR?]
Matthew Munro Gallente Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Matthew Munro on 18/10/2006 15:01:32 Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Actually i dont even see the point of having a spy on another TS simply becuase it takes the fun out of pvp.. Whats the fun in pvp if you knwo what the other side gonna do?? However many people actually do that and im consider them cowards and incompetent.. Spies are much more effective than just information, what about moral? When a alliance works out it has a actual spy then the paranoia sets in, comms have to be more restricted, poeples confidence is reduced. Why fight a enemy head on if you can destroy him from within first? It's a darker side to eve I've never dabbled in and I think exist more times than not in the minds of people
Lunas Feelgood Honey Bunnies	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:04:00 - [8] Originally by: Matthew Munro Edited by: Matthew Munro on 18/10/2006 15:01:32 Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Actually i dont even see the point of having a spy on another TS simply becuase it takes the fun out of pvp.. Whats the fun in pvp if you knwo what the other side gonna do?? However many people actually do that and im consider them cowards and incompetent.. Spies are much more effective than just information, what about moral? When a alliance works out it has a actual spy then the paranoia sets in, comms have to be more restricted, poeples confidence is reduced. Why fight a enemy head on if you can destroy him from within first? It's a darker side to eve I've never dabbled in and I think exist more times than not in the minds of people Yes you will destroy them from within its very easy however you not using game mechanics so basically you destroying something by going outside EVE and current game mechanics, again whats the fun in that?? If you wanna win at all cost go ahead however you only fooling youself becuase it has nothing todo with the game..
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 18/10/2006 14:55:09 Using alt as spyes in other corp/alliance is lame.. Also using spyes to access forums and TS is prop the most lamest you can do.. Having a spy on other alliance TS so you can hear exactly what FC are telling them is the most pathetic thing todo and is only done by others that are simply imcompetent in any ways of fleet battle.. TS spyes can completly ** up an alliance and is seriuosly destroying people gameplay.. Actually i dont even see the point of having a spy on another TS simply becuase it takes the fun out of pvp.. Whats the fun in pvp if you knwo what the other side gonna do?? However many people actually do that and im consider them cowards and incompetent.. How about using an alt to post on the forums to flame a larger alliance? Is that cowardly, lame and incompetent? I think so As to the OP, I'll utilise any ingame information available including information from spies placed within other corps legitimately. No interest in OOG attacks. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto**
Lunas Feelgood Honey Bunnies	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:07:00 - [10] Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 18/10/2006 14:55:09 Using alt as spyes in other corp/alliance is lame.. Also using spyes to access forums and TS is prop the most lamest you can do.. Having a spy on other alliance TS so you can hear exactly what FC are telling them is the most pathetic thing todo and is only done by others that are simply imcompetent in any ways of fleet battle.. TS spyes can completly **** up an alliance and is seriuosly destroying people gameplay.. Actually i dont even see the point of having a spy on another TS simply becuase it takes the fun out of pvp.. Whats the fun in pvp if you knwo what the other side gonna do?? However many people actually do that and im consider them cowards and incompetent.. How about using an alt to post on the forums to flame a larger alliance? Is that cowardly, lame and incompetent? I think so As to the OP, I'll utilise any ingame information available including information from spies placed within other corps legitimately. No interest in OOG attacks. dbp yes DB i have used an alt to post on this forum and that is preatty lame ill be the first one to admit.. Btw DP did a touch a nerve??
Koronos Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:08:00 - [11] Edited by: Koronos on 18/10/2006 15:08:12 Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 18/10/2006 14:55:09 Using alt as spyes in other corp/alliance is lame.. Also using spyes to access forums and TS is prop the most lamest you can do.. Having a spy on other alliance TS so you can hear exactly what FC are telling them is the most pathetic thing todo and is only done by others that are simply imcompetent in any ways of fleet battle.. TS spyes can completly **** up an alliance and is seriuosly destroying people gameplay.. Actually i dont even see the point of having a spy on another TS simply becuase it takes the fun out of pvp.. Whats the fun in pvp if you knwo what the other side gonna do?? However many people actually do that and im consider them cowards and incompetent.. Lunas, I personally agree with you, although tbh I think its tough to call BoB incompetent in any ways of fleet battle. ;) But I totally agree about the fun of battle. Worked against us in 9cg, was demoralizing and very very frustrating, so that crap works, but if you want to be the best pvpers and have the most fun doing it, that just kinda cuts the knees out of it. Koronos P.S. like yer new corp :)
Matthew Munro Gallente Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Yes you will destroy them from within its very easy however you not using game mechanics so basically you destroying something by going outside EVE and current game mechanics, again whats the fun in that?? If you wanna win at all cost go ahead however you only fooling youself becuase it has nothing todo with the game.. But if an alliance is using TS they are already using something that has nothing to do with the game. Ditto on the forums. At that stage I'm not sure you're really going outside the game. As for the fun, I don't see it personally but I'm sure some do. --------------------------------- Targeting: RA Safespots :twisted:
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:12:00 - [13] Edited by: DB Preacher on 18/10/2006 15:13:40 Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Btw DP did a touch a nerve?? Not in the slightest, that would only occur if I agreed in anyway with your assessment of the situation... which I don't. In the same way that I am sure you couldn't careless that I laughed at your lame, cowardly ways on the forums. P.S. Matthew gets it... the difference is the definition of what you see as OOG and IG. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Matthew Munro Edited by: Matthew Munro on 18/10/2006 14:54:49 Originally by: evistin TS/Vent SeverHacking Website Hacking/Attacks Denial of Serivce attacks Stealing of passwords to read other peoples mail, etc etc. All of these are illegal, if you were stupid enough to try any of these, you better know what you are doing else enjoy you time in jail. The legal system is quite harse on "hacking" yet doesn't care if CEO scam millions. Also unless you are very skilled, social engineering is so much easier, and fun You are making two points. If the 'hacker' in question has been given the TS/website/account/email password in question; then the corp doesn't have a leg to stand on. Espionage is a modern-day occurance, countries do it, corporations do it; why shouldn't it happen in Eve? I am sure it'd make a very nice Phd thesis. However, if the person brute-forces a password or whatver, then it is illegal. Certainly in the UK it would be covered under the Computer Misuse act. However there are very few legal cases where someone has hacked a TS/Vent/Game login to gain what is essentially virtual 'currency' (in one form or another) - how do you define virtual theft? Of course, the other old classic is social engineering. There's that survey where 8/10 people gave up their personal details for a free coffee+donut. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:20:00 - [15] In game? Whatever it takes. Out of game? Nothing. Simple as that.
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:21:00 - [16] EVE has changed and so has the people playing it, back in the old days, beta going into retail there was lots of political things going on including spies etc. It made the game fun and was one of the things which brought me here in the first place. Seems the EVE populas is going soft and forgot what this game is about. We win because we explore every option, we turn each opertunity we get, into a blow for the enemy. If its within the game rules then why shouldn't we take advantage of it. Anyhow this isn't a bob thread but this would apply to any group who uses all the tools he has avaliable to him, if you use them ofc your going to have a advantage. If you choose not to use them because of some silly morals you have in a online game then you will always be second best to those who use them.
Matthew Munro Gallente Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:23:00 - [17] Originally by: FireFoxx80 If the 'hacker' in question has been given the TS/website/account/email password in question; then the corp doesn't have a leg to stand on. Espionage is a modern-day occurance, countries do it, corporations do it; why shouldn't it happen in Eve? I am sure it'd make a very nice Phd thesis. Well he did say hacked, implied either a brute force or other form of system compromised beyond been given the password. Originally by: FireFoxx80 However, if the person brute-forces a password or whatver, then it is illegal. Certainly in the UK it would be covered under the Computer Misuse act. However there are very few legal cases where someone has hacked a TS/Vent/Game login to gain what is essentially virtual 'currency' (in one form or another) - how do you define virtual theft? You don't have to in australia afaik. The simple act of attemping to hack a server is a criminal offence. Originally by: FireFoxx80 Of course, the other old classic is social engineering. There's that survey where 8/10 people gave up their personal details for a free coffee+donut. Does not surprise me in the slightest, number of people at work when I say "you need to change your password" who then procede to tell me their current password and the one they want is staggering!
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:28:00 - [18] Personally, I think sitting on someone's TS and relaying real-time intel to your own commanders is pretty poor sportsmanship, after all, this is a game, and I don't see any fun in having the enemy fed to me on a platter. Spying is part of the game though, and gathering intel on fleet movements and operations has its place, I just think it has a limit before it starts to impact the gaming experience in a negative way, akin to using "wallhacks", where you know where the enemy is and what they are doing at all times. And before the forum squad jumps on me...I'm not calling anyone a cheater, but the end results of both techniques for gaining an advantage are quite similar. FREEE is Recruiting
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:35:00 - [19] why does every thread in this forum turn into bob vs ascn? mods, make a seperate forum for propaganda and accusations please. --
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:35:00 - [20] But dont you think thats the point, there is no way to generaly win in eve, you win once the other team quits. And to make them quit you need to make them feel low, you need them to fight between each other, you need them to loose trust in the tools they use and the people who lead them. And if that means ruining there game experience until they move away from a said alliance/corp so be it. Once enough people have done that and the numbers are low the entity will die, thats when you have won.
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Nymos why does every thread in this forum turn into bob vs ascn? mods, make a seperate forum for propaganda and accusations please. hey I have tried to keep this as neutral as possible by not brining bob directly into it
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Dr Einkeisel But dont you think thats the point, there is no way to generaly win in eve, you win once the other team quits. And to make them quit you need to make them feel low, you need them to fight between each other, you need them to loose trust in the tools they use and the people who lead them. And if that means ruining there game experience until they move away from a said alliance/corp so be it. Once enough people have done that and the numbers are low the entity will die, thats when you have won. And all of those things can be done in-game using military and economic force. Just because it's difficult or it takes a long time, doesn't mean it can't be done. FREEE is Recruiting
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:45:00 - [23] Ok so you answered my statement. Those who dont use the tools avaliable to them will always come 2nd. And by the way, give me one example of a entity (a well known orginised one at that) who has died in the history of eve without there been spys etc involved. I doubt you will find one.
Velios M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:51:00 - [24] Baseball bat and a black ballaclava
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:07:00 - [25] Originally by: Dr Einkeisel Ok so you answered my statement. Those who dont use the tools avaliable to them will always come 2nd. And by the way, give me one example of a entity (a well known orginised one at that) who has died in the history of eve without there been spys etc involved. I doubt you will find one. I think the last generation of SA fell apart not due to spies? (can't count the 9CG spies, as its unknown in which alliance they were).. ------------------ yay, the Deimos has been saved!
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:18:00 - [26] Edited by: NATMav on 18/10/2006 16:18:48 Originally by: Dr Einkeisel Ok so you answered my statement. Those who dont use the tools avaliable to them will always come 2nd. And by the way, give me one example of a entity (a well known orginised one at that) who has died in the history of eve without there been spys etc involved. I doubt you will find one. Every alliance has spies. I don't argue that. I do argue that you have to ruin someone else's enjoyment of the game in order to win, which is what your statement describes. *typos FREEE is Recruiting
Fi T'Zeh Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:29:00 - [27] I guess it depends on what "win" means. If win means take space away from a territory claiming alliance and remove them from it. Then certainly the only way to do that is by busting their morale to the extent that they'd rather leave the region than be there. You can blow up as many ships as you like, but if they're still having "fun" being there, or think they have a chance of success, they won't go. that's why territorial alliances employ Ze BlobÖ against small roach-corps that sit in NPC stations / safe spots. The ONLY way to make them leave is to deny them what they came for. .... Real men use blasters
Ardpirate Phantom Squad iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:35:00 - [28] alt spies in alliances may be part of eve but its cheating in my eyes,can't remember ever cheating in a game i've played and if i did i think it would soon become boring.Eve is so good because of the challenge to overcome your enemies ,if u succeed in defeating them fairly im sure you would enjoy it more.
Fi T'Zeh Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:37:00 - [29] Cheating would be modifying the game client to gain an advantage that your opponent doesn't have access to. Everyone has the potential to introduce spies into their opponents organisation. .... Real men use blasters
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:43:00 - [30] do you have the orginal 2003 box ? If so I surgest you read the back of it.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:50:00 - [31] Spy's suck just like scammers, but it's part of the game if done IG... Any OOG action like the op posted would qualify for an asskicking in RL IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.18 17:38:00 - [32] "Hacking" is written into the game too...should we also take that outside of the game? How about if another EvE player lives next door, and I peek through their window? What about corp thieves? Can I go steal CYVOK's PC...that would certainly cripple them! Obviously I'm reaching a bit, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere, because frankly, some of you people take this crap a little to seriously and take far to much pleasure in ruining other people's fun for it to be healthy. FREEE is Recruiting
Rodney Caston Messerschmitt Shipyards The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:08:00 - [33] To ignore any legal competitive advantage is a competitive loss.
Sebo Darrens Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:13:00 - [34] Originally by: NATMav "Hacking" is written into the game too...should we also take that outside of the game? How about if another EvE player lives next door, and I peek through their window? What about corp thieves? Can I go steal CYVOK's PC...that would certainly cripple them! Obviously I'm reaching a bit, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere, because frankly, some of you people take this crap a little to seriously and take far to much pleasure in ruining other people's fun for it to be healthy. The line is simple - anything gotten by in game methods/alt characters etc is legal, anything using external tools to gain illegal access (hacking, theft, etc) is illegal
Darko1107 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:25:00 - [35] Having a spy on the enemies TS is equivalent of using a maphack in an RTS game imo. ------------------ Sig removed, please keep it under the 24,000 byte limit, if you have any questions please email [email protected] - Xorus
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Darko1107 Having a spy on the enemies TS is equivalent of using a maphack in an RTS game imo. No, more like knowing the map very well, and having special building/unit to scout the acivities all around the map. Starcraft had such scanner, Red Alert 2 had, Generals etc. Why do you think having such advantage in EVE is diffrent? ------------------ yay, the Deimos has been saved!
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:30:00 - [37] Originally by: fuze Originally by: Blacklight BoB's message has always been 100% clear. We play the game to the fullest of our abilities and yes that does include the use of spies, espionage and sabotage against you. So were do you guys draw the line? Getting a TS/VS account under false name or alt? Hacking a TS/VS account? Using exploits with risk of being banned? Hacking websites? DDOS websites? Infect websites with worms/virii? Using trojans to aquire account details? None of the above. Getting a spy into a corp and having them freely given TS and/or forum access is acceptable in my mind, other than that all the things you list are totally reprehensible.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.19 22:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: fuze Originally by: Blacklight BoB's message has always been 100% clear. We play the game to the fullest of our abilities and yes that does include the use of spies, espionage and sabotage against you. So were do you guys draw the line? Getting a TS/VS account under false name or alt? Hacking a TS/VS account? Using exploits with risk of being banned? Hacking websites? DDOS websites? Infect websites with worms/virii? Using trojans to aquire account details? None of the above. Getting a spy into a corp and having them freely given TS and/or forum access is acceptable in my mind, other than that all the things you list are totally reprehensible. Freely would imply that they told people they were also in Bob. I have a feeling they didnt, hence the deciet. In my mind anything done along these lines ingame is all good, given that espinoage is part of the game and ccp allows alt characters. However once you start lying and deceiving individuals to gain access to off game servers people have crossed a legal boundry. It will never be prosecuted or anything but in my mind once someone takes it outside the game, they have taken it to far. Just my opinion though...
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Serapis Aote Freely would imply that they told people they were also in Bob. I have a feeling they didnt, hence the deciet. That's pretty much the definition of spying yes. So what are you going to do as a spy? "Oh no I couldn't possibly accept TS and Forum access dear CEO!". That's not going to work very well is it? Taking spying out of the picture entirely would take a lot of interesting, challenging (yes for some corps and alliances it is a real challenge getting a spy in and maintaining it, D2/G have booted about a dozen BNC spies over the last two years, kudos on their security) and entertaining content from the game at large in my opinion.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:07:00 - [40] Aw c'mon, IMP and it's predecessor in collective insanity CA both ahve this nice and ready history of accusing juwst about everyone that ever fought them ingame of DDOSsing their TS, h4xing their forums and do whatever else is technically possible or even impossible. There's never been proof, these guys are just damn sore losers. It wasn't any different when I was part of CA either. The same childish accusations against everyone that came along and actually won a fight from them. No of course that couldn't have anything to do with them being better, or smarter at that time. It was due to another FA/Evol/SA/CFS/enteryournamehere lamer hacking their TS/Forums?cleints/node. Whatever. Grow up. If you've got proof, or even some kind of chatlog that could in any way be seen as such given enough consumption of the same root beer ASCN like to drink, then MAIL it to me. I'd love to see it. Old blog
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.19 23:29:00 - [41] Guys do not say Alliance X did Attack Y to Alliance Z. It will turn into personal attacks sooner or later. Also while some alliances are a little more famous than others of doing such tactics. They may have being the independent action of the player and the leaders are not able to do anything, because the person does not own up or they themsevles are unable to track it. This will go on with and without the apporoval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Vladimir Yuchenko Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.20 02:54:00 - [42] DoS attacks are effective against an opponents TS/Vent, or website (if you somehow though that would be worth it), but against individuals/corporations it would require a good deal information regarding individual members IPs, OS type version & services. Unless your are talking about dropping regional/specific routers that would disconnect a certain geographic region or service provider. However, that would require a large zombie network. As someone mentioned previously socail engineering is likely the most effective (in terms of a time/cost to benefit ratio). If someone were to attack specific routers by hacking into them and gaining control they could easily disconnect reroute certain network segments. Anything of this level of course though requires a certain degree of skill and balls seeing as when you begin to control and disconnect large network segments you will very quickly run into informed and skilled network administrators that usually can spot that type of activity fairly quickly, not to mention investigative agencies of various governments. I should rephrase attacking a certain individual with a DoS attack is not hard as long as you have some basic information. Obtaining that information may pose a problem in certain cases. Of course attacking the Eve Online network itself is always an option, but beyond the technical difficulties one would face. You'd have to be able to interface either with the Eve servers directly or with some other backend administration type applications. I've have no personal knowledge of how hard it would be to insert malicious code into the Eve cluster itself, but while possibly not posing a programming challenge it would require a certain amount of timing and knowledge of the code base. Not to mention that unless it goes undetected for a while backups should fix any issues of that sort. Another option and possibly the best one would be to target the GMs directly. Whether it be through socail engineering or direct attacks on their home networks/less protected networks connected to the Eve cluster. If successful the ability to control a GM account and or simply retrieve whatever information is availible to them would give a fairly significant advantage I would assume. Of course I have no knowledge of exactly what access GMs have or how its authenticated etc... but the possibility is there. Of course if one were truly brilliant and could simulate atleast basic functions of Eve a man in the middle attack could be truly brutal. Now this requires a good deal of planning, timing, and programming skill, but would likely be able to fool an opponent for long enough so that they would incur great losses if say this were done in the middle of a fleet battle. But now that is getting into the realm of "fantasy" hacking where the time preperation and context become so dependent that is becomes impractical to plan for. Forgive me if any of this information is a bit out of date or unclear, its been a few years since I was invovled in network security.
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Vladimir Yuchenko Of course if one were truly brilliant and could simulate atleast basic functions of Eve a man in the middle attack could be truly brutal. Now this requires a good deal of planning, timing, and programming skill, but would likely be able to fool an opponent for long enough so that they would incur great losses if say this were done in the middle of a fleet battle. But now that is getting into the realm of "fantasy" hacking where the time preperation and context become so dependent that is becomes impractical to plan for. Not as much as you would think, regardless, this is still a very odd post for these forums :P
Vladimir Yuchenko Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.20 03:46:00 - [44] Well I was thinking of a MoTM attack where the attacker actually tries to simulate Eve for a brief period of time. Just hijacking the other users connection would not be nearly as hard, I would imagine you'd want to do this in combination with a DoS attack so the victim couldn't sign back on and foil your dastardly plans. Now if you can do this with hunt, I'll be truly impressed. =)
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.20 06:50:00 - [45] Originally by: evistin This will go on with and without the approval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. Agreed. But somehow BoB keeps denying it happened on their turf as well, immediately screeming for proof. Thats just silly or being plain naive. Same goes for calling whiners sore loosers. If someone was banned its impossible to proof it since its not allowed to talk about it. Yet we all know some cases that leaked from GM or friends of banned people who knew what happened. Yet BoB seems to put so much effort in denying all of this that makes one wonder why.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:42:00 - [46] Originally by: Vladimir Yuchenko Of course if one were truly brilliant and could simulate atleast basic functions of Eve a man in the middle attack could be truly brutal. Now this requires a good deal of planning, timing, and programming skill, but would likely be able to fool an opponent for long enough so that they would incur great losses if say this were done in the middle of a fleet battle. But now that is getting into the realm of "fantasy" hacking where the time preperation and context become so dependent that is becomes impractical to plan for. This is somewhat too easy, IRC client, a packet sniffer and a few packets of the command to transfer ISK to target player. The whole program would be well under 500k. U torrent is an example of a small program without lots of abilities. I am currently studying Network security and its scary at the easy of attack. An IRC client with dos prompt access = DDOS system. I would be very defensive if I claim that any alliance conducted such activities. Its like saying person X is dealing violated someone when he did not. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:48:00 - [47] Originally by: fuze Originally by: evistin This will go on with and without the approval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. Agreed. But somehow BoB keeps denying it happened on their turf as well, immediately screeming for proof. Thats just silly or being plain naive. Same goes for calling whiners sore loosers. If someone was banned its impossible to proof it since its not allowed to talk about it. Yet we all know some cases that leaked from GM or friends of banned people who knew what happened. Yet BoB seems to put so much effort in denying all of this that makes one wonder why. Because I'm fairly sick of the nonsense. If people post stupid allegations that are ridiculous in their own right then I'm all down for having fun with them on the forums. But Cupdeez there simply said: "BoB ha4xes and I have proof." Well, if he can't post it, let him mail it to me. As far as every alliance having bad apples in it that do stuff like this. I'll be very cross and call bull** on that too. In fact, I'll call bull** on most alliances ever having been attacked in such a way at all, let alone by someone within the Eve-Online community. Old blog
Hast Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:56:00 - [48] Originally by: fuze Originally by: evistin This will go on with and without the approval and knowledge of the respective leadership. No one alliance is 100% clean, in this respect. Right or wrong it will happen, you must defend yourself against such things thats all. Agreed. But somehow BoB keeps denying it happened on their turf as well, immediately screeming for proof. Thats just silly or being plain naive. Same goes for calling whiners sore loosers. If someone was banned its impossible to proof it since its not allowed to talk about it. Yet we all know some cases that leaked from GM or friends of banned people who knew what happened. Yet BoB seems to put so much effort in denying all of this that makes one wonder why. the reason we are "screaming" for proof, is because he claimed that the GM's told him that they banned someone. that just wont happen, because they arent allowed to tell. Second... how can a ISP unrelated to EVE know that a person, on a different ISP, in a different country, is a member of BoB. but still, since he's in a different country, not press charges... If he can find out what the poor sod had for breakfast yesterday, it shouldnt be too hard to prosecute him, now should it? And as Rod said, Imperium and their merry men have always screamed exploit at the smallest of thing, and fabricated lie after lie, one more insane then the other. Your in LV now, go bug chow or velios on TS and let them tell you a few stories of Xirt. They will have you laughing in stitches for days on end. And you can get nebba to dig up the xirt soundboard aswell Originally by: CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Hast And you can get nebba to dig up the xirt soundboard aswell I know it. I've been around. Seen things and heard things. 'there is always deniability' is engraved in the back of my head. Something tells me you guys remember this too.
djNME DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 21:49:00 - [50] Edited by: djNME on 20/10/2006 21:49:00 Hey, I think spys on others ts and such are super lame. I think most of EVE agree's with me. However looks like most of BoB does not. Wonder why. I mean; why play game of solitaire if you know what the deck is going to do each time? It would be pointless, then again a handful of people would still end up doing it. djNME
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:47:00 - [51] Originally by: evistin I have heard stories from people about the usally logoffski, lag jamming, node crashing tactics, but recently I have heard a darker side, those technically we are not allowed to do. TS/Vent SeverHacking Website Hacking/Attacks Denial of Serivce attacks Stealing of passwords to read other peoples mail, etc etc. I was wondering have you guys heard of such stories and how far have you guys taken your seucrity measures to defend yourself? I can't see many being interested in RULE statements. But for the record RULE does not, and will not support these activities, sanction them, turn a blind eye to them, or in any way knowingly benefit from them, for as long as I remain a member. As for defence against them we have a backup vent server. Corp BBSs are separate from alliance BBS, DoS attacks... well, we don't use IRC, and while I guess most of our members have some form of IM, there isn't any real IM community within us, password stealing etc can't be covered at an alliance level. It comes from people either setting up bad passwords, brute force attacks, or people sharing accounts. There's only so much you can do to protect yourself really. But at least if we started to become subject to such attacks we would know how to limit the damage and some preventative measures.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.21 00:24:00 - [52] If you guys really hate BOB for their spies, go read the "Art of War" by Sun Tzu. Now come back and tell me you don't intend to use them yourselves now. We all agree that these attacks happen, and must be defended against. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 01:46:00 - [53] Originally by: djNME Edited by: djNME on 20/10/2006 21:49:00 Hey, I think spys on others ts and such are super lame. I think most of EVE agree's with me. However looks like most of BoB does not. Wonder why. I mean; why play game of solitaire if you know what the deck is going to do each time? It would be pointless, then again a handful of people would still end up doing it. djNME If using spies and TS recordings was the only thing that will win us the war we would have anhilated ASCN sicne day 1 , this aint solitare or anything simple as it , spying is just a minor part of the war , whats wining the war is the dedication of BOB pilots and leaders period. "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
patteSatan Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.21 05:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Blacklight Hacking, cheating, exploiting, DoS attacks etc etc.. have no place in an online game especially one like Eve where the harsh environment allows you to inflict enough hurt on your enemies without resorting to such lame tactics. Spying in all forms, including forum and TS access I find 100% acceptable. The prevention of these tactics lies firmly in the hand of the corp/alliance spied upon. Personally I believe the espionage, counter-espionage, propaganda wars, betrayals, sabotage etc etc.. add a real spice to the game and up the level of competition. The art to playing with all those 'dirty tricks' (in my opinion) is to take them in the right context, fight full on with the absolute maximum dedication and resources available to you in order to win but be able to say 'well fought' and move on afterwards. I usually dont like BoB posts, but BL really puts those "ugly things" into words, I, as an old UT player, and thats "Unrealtournament" from 1999, not the ugly ones with numbers, sure we used "ugly" tacticts, a thing real common was: asking a friend to the clan we were going to meet, to check what weaknessess (<spelling) that clan had, and, in fact, at that time, an opponent on the TS was a great thing, you even asked if you could drop by, when they trained, hell, you even got lucky yourself!!!! An opponent wanted to be on the TS!!!! As I can see, the latter is lame now, as you "sneak" people in, paranoia ftw, but if I have a friend in, for an example, IAC, wich I DO have friends in, or BoB/FIX/MC/ASCN, where I dont have friends, but people I can "theoretically" throw ideas/accusations and discuss, its, dear players, up to ME, what I tell my own corp, my alliance, and the people I discuss with, have the same options as me. Eve is NOT a pvp-game, nor is it a "carebear" game, nor a strategic game, but ALL of those 3, and more.
Dhan Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.21 06:51:00 - [55] To those for whom TS spying is `the way I play the game`.... It's the same as playing football and having a microphone planted on one of the players on the opposing team, and hearing the plans for every play before it happens. Lame. Befriending someone then stealing from them or corp or offlining POS and such, also lame.
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:58:00 - [56] Ingame spying is part of the game mechanics. It's nasty but its even mentioned on the orginal CD box so I guess CCP intended to be part of the game from day 1. And you're not forced to play this game, and you're not even forced to play a certain style in this game. But since its a MMO game you're dealing with other people who have their view on how they play the game combined with CCP enforcing the EULA you agree with when you pay for playing the game. Using spying on TS server is something else. Its a OOC mechanism that can be used as an addition for in game mechanism. If you combine it with another OOC mechanism like having multiple accounts the sum of both would be accessing TS with a 2nd account for aiding a prime account would be an OOC and outgame advantage at first sight. It still could work as a IOC mechanism if the 2nd account would receive payments from the prime for its spying activities. Just see it like a special type of mercenary thats paid for snooping in the ennemys camp. Giving username/password for accessing TS server would be totally not done and should be regarded as social engineering form of hacking. People who are caught doing this should be subjected for a harassment petition IMHO. And even be subjected for legal actions due to hacking the TS server. Same goes for recording the TS conversations and spreading them. There is no in game mechanism for sharing those recordings so there is no conceivable way of a spy handing it over to its contractor. There was some point about this that legally its allowed by the british telecommunication law but at this I beg to differ since the access to the TS server was given to someone who lied about its intensions. To use a written transcript preferrably by the spy and given in game to its contractor would be valid for other use on forums etc. Problem is that in the past those TS recordings were spreaded and even used in frapsed video's. Still I think anyone who's offended by someone else whos posting TS recordings should have the right to seek legal actions for having him/her stop doing this. Not when it comes to written transcripts of these. To people who's obsession with proof this could be a problem because others could claim the proof was fabricated. Only a few realize that with some advanced tooling you can fabricate TS recordings as well. Same goes for frapsed video. So effectively any TS recording or frapsed video isn't actually 100% proof as well. Still that's just a price that has to be paid for the fact that you want to stay true to the game and its mechanics on how to present your spying results to the public. This matter will change though when ingame chatting comes available though. Then ingame chatting is become an ingame mechanic which is linked to the logged in character. There still isn't a way to share recordings ingame though. But that's the same for frapsed videos. (would make lag even worse as well)
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 15:22:00 - [57] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 21/10/2006 15:31:14 Well, the matter is subjective and gets rather complicated and nitpicky tbh, but i'll try explain my viewpopint on it for you Fuze. I regard the defeinition of "Eve gameplay" to be the experience determined by the total of factors directly related to what you do in the Eve fantasy world, and anything that serves to facilitate or enhance that experience. Other people choose to define Eve gameplay by the boundaries of the game software. Some include the Eve Online forums, and that's where most seem to stop. However, if you for the sake of discussion grant my definition as being a possible and allowable one (regardless of morality, but judging by logic and law), then any teamspeak channel or private forum section primarily used to enhance or facilitate Eve gameplay becomes fair game for spying. If you take that vieuw, TS spying and forum spying are basically the same thing as the breaking of any promise or agreement made within the context of the Eve fantasy universe. In short: it's a matter of trust. Imo, no violation of real world privacy is involved that goes beyond the violation occurring in other cases where trust in violated ingame. Since the violation of trust is neither illegal nor falls beyond the bounds of EULA or TOS, and can actually be said to be very fitting within the context of a war-simulation game with a high degree of competitiveness, you can further reduce the moral factor involved to the level of that involved in a game of Poker. Bliffing or lying in a game of Poker is far from illegal, nor widely seen as morally reprehensible. Old blog
Ysabelle nKataros Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 17:53:00 - [58] This behaviour has been going on for a long time. In the first Caldari Championships, KAOS's TS server was put out of action just a few seconds before the match against The Five, the semifinals match. The server administrator confirmed that the server crash was not due to malfunction. BoB: When we have fleet battles, our killboard crashes
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 18:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Dhan To those for whom TS spying is `the way I play the game`.... It's the same as playing football and having a microphone planted on one of the players on the opposing team, and hearing the plans for every play before it happens. Lame. Befriending someone then stealing from them or corp or offlining POS and such, also lame. If you are a football fan you should know that every team have their own spies that can get info on the other teams players and tactics etc. So what was your point? You Will Cry My Name
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 19:07:00 - [60] Hey, I wonder what is going to happen if VOIP system been introduced becomes more used then TS, what leg will you have to stand on then
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.21 19:43:00 - [61] Originally by: Nira Li If you are a football fan you should know that every team have their own spies that can get info on the other teams players and tactics etc. Don't be silly. Eve isn't a multi-billion industry like football is. Rod's comparison of poker comes a bit closer but only when it for fun and not large sums. We all play Eve for fun, some might be more serious and really like to win but in the end you've just won some online computergame. With football and poker if you're good enough you can earn enough money for the rest of your life. So stakes are considerable higher. Just look at the italian scandal that went on. And do you think that Cally can retire in RL? I don't think so. My oppinion would be that TS spying is a close call but you cannot give account details to others as well as using recordings. With ingame VOIP its impossible to share account details due to the EULA restricting it and recordings are directly related to the game.
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 20:01:00 - [62] Originally by: fuze Originally by: Nira Li If you are a football fan you should know that every team have their own spies that can get info on the other teams players and tactics etc. Don't be silly. Eve isn't a multi-billion industry like football is. Rod's comparison of poker comes a bit closer but only when it for fun and not large sums. We all play Eve for fun, some might be more serious and really like to win but in the end you've just won some online computergame. With football and poker if you're good enough you can earn enough money for the rest of your life. So stakes are considerable higher. Just look at the italian scandal that went on. And do you think that Cally can retire in RL? I don't think so. My oppinion would be that TS spying is a close call but you cannot give account details to others as well as using recordings. With ingame VOIP its impossible to share account details due to the EULA restricting it and recordings are directly related to the game. True true, I just hade to prove his point wrong I personally have nothing against TS spying aslong as you don't hack the TS to get access. One thing that's buggering me though is why all of sudden ppl start disscusing TS/corp spying now, ppl been doing it since 2003 You Will Cry My Name
Leilani Solaris Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.21 20:35:00 - [63] I lose ships fighting for the corp, does that count?
G Katah Gallente Red Eclipse Inc. The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:09:00 - [64] To the OP: How much security? Apparently a lot. Many seem to be getting mixed up between what is legal and what is right. But I will leave that aside. BoB does seem to have gone from denying the use of TS spies, to justifying it. I do understand why they would wish to deny using TS spies in PvP. Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel If using spies and TS recordings was the only thing that will win us the war we would have anhilated ASCN sicne day 1 , this aint solitare or anything simple as it , spying is just a minor part of the war , whats wining the war is the dedication of BOB pilots and leaders period. (my emphasis) That's really what it comes down to isn't it? How much is the skill and dedication of BoB pilots, and how much is TS spying? Having a spy on the enemies TS during fleet ops or in PvP is undeniably an enormous advantage. I have no doubt that many of the most skilled PvPers in EvE may be found in BoB. I am sure they are ably led by capable leaders. They certainly boast many top-notch FCs. But where are the years of dedication and practice? The years spent piling up skill points in carefully selected training. The hard work building up the resources for the finest ships and equipment. The many many hours spent flying in gangs and fleets honing skills. It is a shame really that any victories achieved by these many skilled and experienced players will be cheapened by this TS spying. I thought all BoB wanted was good fights? The hard-fought kind that one can take pride in win or lose. The kind you win with better pilots, outstanding scouting, tight discipline, and superior tactics. The victories that are all the sweeter for how hard they were to achieve. I know I treasure most the achievments I had to struggle the hardest complete. I think it is a shame really for the vast majority of the BoB pilots. You will be short-changed on any victories you achieve.
Eiro	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:23:00 - [65] Spying would be ok if it weren't for the ubiquity of alts that can simply be tossed away and recycled. If spying (and getting caught doing it) actually had a lasting impact on someone's reputation in the game, it would certainly provide a counterbalance to the amount of intel you could get from it. But (like scamming) if you can just delete the character afterwards and there's no evidence to trace it to another character or the real player, no way to hold the player accountable for their actions, then the whole concept of "trust" in EVE is completely fubar. Also, to the BoB guy who said the way to win is to get other players to quit playing... wow. Just... wow. Eiro
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:32:00 - [66] Originally by: Eiro Also, to the BoB guy who said the way to win is to get other players to quit playing... wow. Just... wow. Well tbh that's how you win the game and will probably not happen anyway To win a war you just have to slaughter your enemy till they get bored You Will Cry My Name
Buxaroo Black Dwarf Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 19:56:00 - [67] The VOIP thing might just put a big damper on the spying crap. I can't wait to see how it works and secure it is. I worry about all the ***ers trying to get into the VOIP server and trying to figure out ways to listen in on gang's voice channels without showing up. I really hope the security aspect of the VOIP is taken seriously. I suspect there will be someone who will try to hack/*** the VOIP server company and steal the code to see if they can work out a way to listen in. Look at what happened to Half Life 2. It was leaked WAY before the game was finished. It just goes to show how far people will go to hack a game or gain an advantage over someone.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:29:00 - [68] Half-Life 2 was a hacker who wanted to prove how much value was lying about a production ready code. But yes it does prove the lenghts people go to prove it. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Scan 7 Detroit School of Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 18/10/2006 14:55:09 Using alt as spyes in other corp/alliance is lame.. Also using spyes to access forums and TS is prop the most lamest you can do.. Having a spy on other alliance TS so you can hear exactly what FC are telling them is the most pathetic thing todo and is only done by others that are simply imcompetent in any ways of fleet battle.. TS spyes can completly **** up an alliance and is seriuosly destroying people gameplay.. Actually i dont even see the point of having a spy on another TS simply becuase it takes the fun out of pvp.. Whats the fun in pvp if you knwo what the other side gonna do?? However many people actually do that and im consider them cowards and incompetent.. I think you need to get your head out of those fairy white clouds, eve is based on a real world model, every goverment uses spies i dont see why alliances should be different, tho granted its far to easy to do in eve unlike real life but to me it adds an extra fun dimension to the game
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:28:00 - [70] Originally by: Buxaroo The VOIP thing might just put a big damper on the spying crap. I can't wait to see how it works and secure it is. I worry about all the ***ers trying to get into the VOIP server and trying to figure out ways to listen in on gang's voice channels without showing up. I really hope the security aspect of the VOIP is taken seriously. I suspect there will be someone who will try to hack/*** the VOIP server company and steal the code to see if they can work out a way to listen in. Look at what happened to Half Life 2. It was leaked WAY before the game was finished. It just goes to show how far people will go to hack a game or gain an advantage over someone. What I meant about the VOIP system was, it will make it easier for people to spy. All you need to do is put a person in the said corp ( like we have lots in ASCN ) and you can be on VOIP. It also protects the spy as I assume you wont be able to see there IP like you could on TS.
Ridley Tree Crimson Knights Trade Federation Thundering Mantis	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:19:00 - [71] Spying on, listening in on the communications and using that information to determine your own movements and actions is as vital a part of warfare as the construction of your ships and the firing of your guns. To say that you should not be allowed to spy on your opponentÆs team-speak is to say you should not be allowed to shoot your opponent. That aside, there is a reason why the military codes of conduct require someone to be wearing a uniform in order to receive fair treatment/be eligible under the Geneva Convention. Spies are basically the scum of warfare. No one likes them, but theyÆre a vital and important tool. This discussion boils down to whether or not you accept spies as a legitimate tool of warfare. And the answer to that is that your opponent does. And if he does, you should consider it a legitimate tool as well. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zedic Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:35:00 - [72] Quote: If you guys really hate BOB for their spies, go read the "Art of War" by Sun Tzu. Now come back and tell me you don't intend to use them yourselves now. Better yet, go ready "Sun Tzu was a Sissy: Conquer Your Enemies, Promote Your Friends, and Wage the Real Art of War" by Stanley Bing. Absolutely the funniest thing I've read in a long time. *this message has not be approved or condoned by f0rum watchers, hang wringers or my Corp / Alliance. Z0mgz I posted anywai! Teh Zed
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:17:00 - [73] Originally by: Dr Einkeisel What I meant about the VOIP system was, it will make it easier for people to spy. All you need to do is put a person in the said corp ( like we have lots in ASCN ) and you can be on VOIP. It also protects the spy as I assume you wont be able to see there IP like you could on TS. Yes, but at the same time they will have to have that account logged on in-game in order to be in the channel. That makes it at least a bit more difficult as they will have to run two accounts to be able to listen in & fight on the "other side" at the same time. Also, from what I have seen so far, it appears that it will be integrated with gangs, so it will be fairly easy to see who is in the gang but not in space with you. FREEE is Recruiting

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