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Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:07:00 - [1] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 07:10:32 I'm quite surprised at how many people have mentioned cancelling their accounts over the latest changes. Most Eve-ers are stalwart and take ridiculous changes on the chin, but this one is especially ridiculous, particularly for Minmatar, but also for anyone who uses their capacitor..... In addition to this, the ridiculous hour of question dodging that was the dev chat last night only served to compound the problem; Tux either refused to answer the questions on this issue, or genuinely doesn't understand the problems. Either way, it was a farce to watch. The community at large is now worried. RAMSAN+insert fart joke here+OMGKALI2 is not an answer to game balance issues. The comments about this are spread throughout threads here and on other forums/IRC, but there's a lot of them. Let's see just how many people have had enough. Vote now, and post your reasons why! Poll here! Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:13:00 - [2] Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:18:00 - [3] Originally by: Jim McGregor Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. Why? For the Dominix thats going to eventually get nerfed when ECM does? Blasterthrons are going to be just as messed over by the HP changes as other ships. They usually rely on cap charges to win fights. Longer fights equal more cap charges which the megathron doesn't have. Thus these HP changes mean blasterthrons are going to be nerfed pretty heavily also, atleast in small scale pvp.
Karma Coma	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:18:00 - [4] Im not going to comment on the changes themselves until they come out but one thing that ****es me off is the dev team goes through incredible lengths not to make any comments on the mini issue! I was reading one of the chats were tux was actively commenting on all issues asked then skiped the mini one and then stoped commenting all together... I dont even fly mini ships and its irritating me.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Karma Coma Im not going to comment on the changes themselves until they come out but one thing that ***es me off is the dev team goes through incredible lengths not to make any comments on the mini issue! I was reading one of the chats were tux was actively commenting on all issues asked then skiped the mini one and then stoped commenting all together... I dont even fly mini ships and its irritating me. Well, the answers to many of the questions were absolutely ridiculous tbh - they followed the form: Repeat question Repeat question with words changes Insert beer or fart/nakedness/Oveur joke Make comment about Kali 2 fixing it / Acknowledge problem but disagree that it's as bad as people think Next question But particularly on the Minnie question, Tuxford actually said nothing* to answer the question. (20:04:56) (~omghax0r) <[STAR]AeolusWind> As a followup to the HP increase, are there any plans to revise artillery to cope with the fact that the alphastrike capability will have been made less effective, where tanking, especially sheilds, has become more effective? (20:07:22) (@tuxford) Everything is under constant revision all the time. Another look at the hitpoint increase is the possibility that cap using turrets run out of cap before its target is dead. Actually thats exactly what happened to a fellow dev that was trying out the Rokh. Of course I'd wager that the minmatar ship would be out of ammo as well Razz (20:07:28) (@tuxford) Of course the chances that you'll end up shooting at a target alone is pretty slim, I don't see many sniper duels o.O (20:08:14) (@tuxford) We're definitly considering lowering the volume of projectile ammo. I haven't taken a look at the damage over time recently but iirc it did a bit less than both tachyon and 425mm rails but then I was looking at it with emp fitted which does less damage other turret most high damage ammo, which does not hold true for t2 charges (20:08:56) (@tuxford) and another thing when you're comparing damage consider the ships they are going to be fitted on. You can assume that a minmatar ship will definitly get a rate of fire bonus (20:09:09) (@tuxford) gallente usually a damage and amarr cap need one Do you see anything in there that answers any part of the question? I don't. Does Tux really think that when we compare DPS we don't take ship bonuses into account? And does he forget we generally have less guns than other races? Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Roxanna Kell BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:26:00 - [6] if everything gets nurfed, than its a balanced nurf ; p. All skirmishes will last longer thats all. Quote: "Don't touch the red button!"
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Kristoffer Originally by: Jim McGregor Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. Why? For the Dominix thats going to eventually get nerfed when ECM does? Blasterthrons are going to be just as messed over by the HP changes as other ships. They usually rely on cap charges to win fights. Longer fights equal more cap charges which the megathron doesn't have. Thus these HP changes mean blasterthrons are going to be nerfed pretty heavily also, atleast in small scale pvp. Yeah, I know, gallente and amarr is very much affected by this change as well. Caldari gets a boost as usual. But I like guns, and the fact is that with the current game mechanics of 20 km warp disruptors, most of the fights are happening in optimal range of gallente ships. The much higher dps of the gallente ships wont have much problems killing the extra hitpoints I think. Besides, just look at the ships... they do have the best ships in almost every class, and their fighting style is much more about raw power instead of hit & run. Tux wants to kill hit & run with the wcs changes too. Expect Vaga prices to drop alot. Ive already sold mine. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:28:00 - [8] So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:29:00 - [9] Blasterthrons aren't going to be messed up over this duration increase in fights - they'll just switch over to a plate setup. Which, tbh, works better with Neutrons anyway. Base cap recharge is enough to keep just guns going for a decent amount of time. Anyway, Domi and Raven got better - capless wonders that they are. When ECM gets nerfed, ppl will just switch to dampeners - I don't see 1v1 battleship balance changing significantly anytime soon.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:30:00 - [10] Quitting? No. But I am going to watch the development of the HP boost & associated issues VERY closely... and I'm going to do as much shouting as I think I need to. Which unless I see some real changes in the gun cap use/ammo size/cap charge size, is going to = A LOT. One thing is for sure, I am extremely disappointed with tux's actions and attitude. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:41:00 - [11] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 07:48:09 Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? Firstly, two things: 425mms have a better range than 1400mms 425mms have better base tracking than 1400mms and the thron gets a tracking boost Tempest has less dps with two DPS bonuses (Graph Coming) So, it deals less damage, it tracks worse, it has less range. All because it uses no cap. What exactly am I meant to use that sapre cap for? What modules can a Tempest fit after 6 1400mms? Because let's not forget, it takes AWU 5 just to fit guns with no fitting mods, because artillery have high fitting requirements. /me goes off to play with NB's graphs to shoot down more clueless noobs. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:44:00 - [12] Originally by: Testy Mctest And, the Tempest deals roughly 20% less DPS than a Megathron. www.learn-math-for-testing.com Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:54:00 - [13] So far I'm not minding the changes that much. Then again I'll be flying around in a t2 torp spitting raven with 11K+ sheilds and 15K+ armor doing over 1KM/s on mwd about the time kali goes live.... Pretty sure I should start running now. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
McTaggart Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:57:00 - [14] Dalman, lets see your calcs then. Don't call out people who are repeatedly right and are known to know what they're talking about without backing yourself up.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:59:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 08:06:29 Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? You are right about that (I ran the numbers in NB's excel sheet, using tech 2 and Tremor/Spike ammo), but why use a Tempest when you can use a Megathron? The megathron excels up close as well. Its better at both roles. The Tempest has a nice alpha, but who wants to play a race who's only advantage is a slighly decent alpha strike, and then sucky dps? I agree thats it can sometimes be nice to not use cap, but you never see a Tempest tank a megathron for very long despite that advantage. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rin Eyre	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:59:00 - [16] Well, you see, now it's completly obvious that Tuxford is mathematician in the all sences of this word, from comical ("where are we?" - "on the baloon!"), to utmost serious "both sides of equation must be equal". It's not that bad, actually. But with it he is not what many people imagine when hearing "game designer". Understand that and do little math yourself. In due time artillery will be as usual (god, I HATE this word!) as hybrinds. Just because of almost equal DPS for mathematical fleet fight. Maybe little more from start, equal after several volleys... and there will be many of them to work for it. So no, no quiting, I won't ever stop trainig minmatar ships. Gallente will follow. Until he reads some books on actual game design and psychology of difference importance, there is absolutly no way to hide in switching training. P.S. Minmatar, Ammar and even Gallente already gets "just usual turret ship" for Tier 3. Caldary gets differen only by accident of been only true missle and ECM users in game.
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:59:00 - [17] You can use the cap to activate the new modules they are going to be releasing. Right. This is the part where I hand you a chill pill, tell you to calm down, breath into a paper bag and to wait and see how it all pans out in the larger scheme of things.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:05:00 - [18] good, please cancel your account and quit so that we don't have to read these dumb threads. you guys obviously aren't mentally fit to play this game. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Randay good, please cancel your account and quit so that we don't have to read these dumb threads. you guys obviously aren't mentally fit to play this game. You didnt even bother to put together your own argument, so I dont really see how you can flame Testy with any credibility. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 08:22:48 Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest And, the Tempest deals roughly 20% less DPS than a Megathron. www.learn-math-for-testing.com Mega vs Pest - Speed = 0 Now let's see what happens when we add in some transversal and factor in tracking: Mega vs Pest w/ Transversal Whilst it is possible that I'm using these graphs wrong because I've missed a parameter somewhere, I'm fairly certain they're right. Note the 20%~ DPS differential in places, and the general dominance of the mega elsewhere. @everyone else: carry on flaming away, if I'd wanted to post in an area free of idiots I'd have posted on Scrapheap, but there's no point posting this there since those people know this already :P Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:45:00 - [21] Ok, I've looked at your graphs and I just don't care. 20% diffrence in damage at most, and a lot less usually. So what. Close enough, you choose your damage types, and you get free cap. 200 m/s transversal. Big deal, Mega has a tracking bonus. Tempest will still do nice burst damage, which will be nice burst damage on an aligned ship. Everything in life isn't perfect. Either take a chill pill and make do with what you've got or quit if your blood-pressure can't handle it.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:50:00 - [22] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 08:22:48 Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest And, the Tempest deals roughly 20% less DPS than a Megathron. www.learn-math-for-testing.com Mega vs Pest - Speed = 0 Now let's see what happens when we add in some transversal and factor in tracking: Mega vs Pest w/ Transversal Whilst it is possible that I'm using these graphs wrong because I've missed a parameter somewhere, I'm fairly certain they're right. Note the 20%~ DPS differential in places, and the general dominance of the mega elsewhere. Yes. So the actual DPS difference in 'perfect conditions' is 3%, not 20%, between a ship that runs out of cap and can't fire any more vs one which does not. Your second graph is correct, but "still not". First off, you hardly ever travel with 200 transversal, that figure should be lowered. Second, and more important: In such fittings, everyone use tracking computers/tracking enhancers. Redo that graph with both ships running 2 tracking computers and 1 tracking enhancer (= a real setup) and the tempest hardly has any tracking problems - bringing the DPS difference down towards 3% again. A third important point: there are 36276234546 pages of amarr whinin about how many has a plate fitted in such setups, gimping their (awesomely high) EM/thermal combo. Applying the same here, your explosive damage does more actual damage than the megathron. Fact is that your tempest does insignificantly less DPS than a megathron, without running out of cap. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Illuminaty 20% diffrence in damage at most, and a lot less usually. So what. Close enough, you choose your damage types, and you get free cap. You do realise that choosing damage types is a myth, right? Since the damage types we can do are dictated by range. Even with max skills and multiple tracking computers, we're essentially limited to Exp/Kinetic at any range past 120km. And at ranges below that, the ammo that has different damage types isn't choosable since again, you can only pick the ammo that you're in range for. And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Quote: Everything in life isn't perfect. Either take a chill pill and make do with what you've got or quit if your blood-pressure can't handle it. How cure, another 'adapt or die' post from another irrelevent nobody with no understanding of the game. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Testy Mctest [And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Yes, you can't really use your cap. But the difference is, that after some minutes a megathron doesn't have any cap at all and simply can't fire at all. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:57:00 - [25] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 08:57:08 Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest [And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Yes, you can't really use your cap. But the difference is, that after some minutes a megathron doesn't have any cap at all and simply can't fire at all. Cap injectors? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:02:00 - [26] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 09:02:15 DPS with tracking mods Originally by: dalman Fact is that your tempest does insignificantly less DPS than a megathron, without running out of cap. Hardly. Although the damage difference is different in different places, the Mega is always ahead in DPS. Always. And even once you factor in tracking modules, once you pass 175km the Mega hits a zone where it deals a huge amount more than the Tempest. And that's not to mention the fact that you aren't always shooting at a BS. Look what happens when you start shooting at a cruiser: Versus Cruisers Anyway, this argument isn't about Mega vs Tempest, that's just one example. The simple fact is, Artillery is lesser than other weapons. Until we can fit artillery and at least a reasonable tank, not using cap doesn't make up for the DPS and tracking differential. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Jim McGregor Cap injectors? Then I never ever again want to see a single minniewhine about fitting reqs on 1400. And, a megathron needs to carry ****loads of ammo rounds, leaving little room for cap charges. But ofc it's possible. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:04:00 - [28] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest [And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Yes, you can't really use your cap. But the difference is, that after some minutes a megathron doesn't have any cap at all and simply can't fire at all. After 'some minutes'. So? It's not like that's a huge disadvantage - since dreads were invented, the only real need to sustain your cap long term (shooting at POSes) has been removed. Minutes is plenty of time to continue shooting. I agree it's a drawback. But it's not enough of a drawback to balance rails against artillery. Plus, there are rather simple ways around running out of cap. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
RotatoR Star Kingdom of Manticore	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:09:00 - [29] Edited by: RotatoR on 20/10/2006 09:17:18 Originally by: Testy Mctest Another 'adapt or die' post from another irrelevent nobody with no understanding of the game. First, you should focus on problem and not how to degrade your opponents. I am not quitting this game. Sure, huge changes are coming soon. This makes bigger changes of balance issues. But I feel there should be put brake on damage vs defence ratio. Why? Player base is constantly getting older with better skills, more peeps are now using T2 fits, T2 ammo, gang bonuses, modules and so on. And the result is even big ships are destroyed very quickly. If you are worry about for example Minmatar not balanced, I think arguments starting with "I am considering of quitting" can not improve you situation.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 09:02:15 DPS with tracking mods Originally by: dalman Fact is that your tempest does insignificantly less DPS than a megathron, without running out of cap. Hardly. Although the damage difference is different in different places, the Mega is always ahead in DPS. Always. And even once you factor in tracking modules, once you pass 175km the Mega hits a zone where it deals a huge amount more than the Tempest. And that's not to mention the fact that you aren't always shooting at a BS. Look what happens when you start shooting at a cruiser: Versus Cruisers Anyway, this argument isn't about Mega vs Tempest, that's just one example. The simple fact is, Artillery is lesser than other weapons. Until we can fit artillery and at least a reasonable tank, not using cap doesn't make up for the DPS and tracking differential. Now, lower transversal to 150-160 (more realistic), and there's hardly any difference. Not using cap sure as **** makes up for the fitting reqs in fleet. The lesser tracking is made up for with falloff. In the above situation, you're the worse. Then all of a sudden one fleet decides to go in closer and you switch to short range ammo as the hostiles are 40-80 km away. And whoop dee doo now your greater falloff is of good use. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me

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