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Al Haquis Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:16:00 - [31] Can I have your stuff? With love from Al Haquis
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:16:00 - [32] Not quitting, but I don't like the hp boost at all. It goes against small gangs, against low sec piracy, against hit & run.
Fi T'Zeh Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:22:00 - [33] you won't see it Al, Drama McQueen here has already quit at least once iirc. .... Real men use blasters
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Fi T'Zeh you won't see it Al, Drama McQueen here has already quit at least once iirc. Yep. Not that I've really played a massive amount since the first time I considered quitting, though. Also, you'll notice that the topic is a question about whether people are considering quitting due to the amount of people mentioning it, not a 'OMGIMQUITTING' thread. I appreciate, though, that deciphering the complicated grammar that is a question mark is difficult and understand your pain. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Jhenda	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:32:00 - [35] Im not going to quit actually Im lauging for all the whiners who goes like "sob sob they inresedd hp now I cant isntapop anuyting sob sob I gONA spo QUit" would have actually hoped that they would have increased hp even more 100 or 200%
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Jhenda Im not going to quit actually Im lauging for all the whiners who goes like "sob sob they inresedd hp now I cant isntapop anuyting sob sob I gONA spo QUit" would have actually hoped that they would have increased hp even more 100 or 200% Ah, another of Eve-O's general demographic :P The problem isn't with things not instapopping. The problem is that instapopping was Minmatar's strength to balance out their poor damage in anything above the short-short-term. Now we can't do that - which is fine - we need a buff elsewhere to keep us competative. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Jhenda Im not going to quit actually Im lauging for all the whiners who goes like "sob sob they inresedd hp now I cant isntapop anuyting sob sob I gONA spo QUit" would have actually hoped that they would have increased hp even more 100 or 200% Ah, another of Eve-O's general demographic :P The problem isn't with things not instapopping. The problem is that instapopping was Minmatar's strength to balance out their poor damage in anything above the short-short-term. Now we can't do that - which is fine - we need a buff elsewhere to keep us competative. The problem is that you don't have poor damage per second but somehow keep whining about it. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:41:00 - [38] Originally by: dalman The problem is that you don't have poor damage per second but somehow keep whining about it. So show me the numbers and the evidence to prove that artillery is balanced. For the sake of ease, just show me where it's balanced against rails. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: dalman The problem is that you don't have poor damage per second but somehow keep whining about it. So show me the numbers and the evidence to prove that artillery is balanced. For the sake of ease, just show me where it's balanced against rails. You've already done that yourself in your graphs. Show me one single fleet combat video where transversal is 200 m/s. In 90% of them, transversal is less than 100 m/s. Use that value in your graph and the raw DPS difference is down to ~3%. Your guns do explosive/kin damage, which generally have less resistance than hybrids thermal/kin (ask the 3546254744647 amarr whiners about that). Leading to that in practise vs resistance your tempest do more DPS than a megathron. k? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:21:00 - [40] Edited by: James Lyrus on 20/10/2006 10:22:38 Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 07:48:09 Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? Firstly, two things: 425mms have a better range than 1400mms 425mms have better base tracking than 1400mms and the thron gets a tracking boost Tempest has less dps with two DPS bonuses (Graph Coming) So, it deals less damage, it tracks worse, it has less range. All because it uses no cap. What exactly am I meant to use that sapre cap for? What modules can a Tempest fit after 6 1400mms? Because let's not forget, it takes AWU 5 just to fit guns with no fitting mods, because artillery have high fitting requirements. /me goes off to play with NB's graphs to shoot down more clueless noobs. You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. There is a reason why well defended POSes use artillery and autos, even on towers that get laser/hybrid bonuses.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:37:00 - [41] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 10:38:49 Originally by: dalman Show me one single fleet combat video where transversal is 200 m/s. In 90% of them, transversal is less than 100 m/s. Use that value in your graph and the raw DPS difference is down to ~3%. So what you're saying is, you only want me to consider situations where the DPS is more optimal for the Tempest because of the tracking issues? Right. So even when the tracking issues are lessened, it still deals less damage then a Mega; the more exacerbated the situation becomes, the larger the difference. And of course, the smaller the target you shoot at, the larger the difference too. I conceded by posting the first graph I posted that under optimal conditions there isn't much difference between the two. But the artillery rapidly diminishes under combat circumstances, whereas the Megathron continues to shine for a lot longer. Quote: Your guns do explosive/kin damage, which generally have less resistance than hybrids thermal/kin (ask the 3546254744647 amarr whiners about that). Leading to that in practise vs resistance your tempest do more DPS than a megathron. Actually, considering base resists of for example, a Megathron: 4969 shield, 0/60/40/20 resists 5313 armour, 60/10/35/35 resists For a Megathron to eat through these defences with Spike (16kin, 20therm, a 44.5%/55.5% split) will take: 3685 Kin + 3446 Therm = 7131 raw dmg for shields 4052 Kin + 4537 Therm = 8589 raw dmg for armour Whereas a Tempest with Tremor (20exp, 16kin, splits reverse of above) will take: 6892 Exp + 3685 Kin = 10577 raw dmg for shields 3275 Exp + 4052 Kin = 7327 raw dmg for armour So, a Megathron needs to deal 15720 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron A Tempest needs to deal 17904 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron K? Quote: You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. There is a reason why well defended POSes use artillery and autos, even on towers that get laser/hybrid bonuses. Seriously, do you have any clue about actual game mechanics? We cannot choose damage types in practice, because in practice most ranges that are fought at nowadays we only have two choices - carbonised lead for t1 or tremor for t2. And hey, look, neither have variable damage types. And PoS warfare doesnt come into it. I don't fly a PoS. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:44:00 - [42] Edited by: Max Teranous on 20/10/2006 10:46:53 Don't compare a Pest with a Mega, compare it to a Rokh. Then you can really start crying. 250km range and 15K hardened shields (pre hp boost)? Yes please. Max --------------------
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Max Teranous Edited by: Max Teranous on 20/10/2006 10:46:53 Don't compare a Pest with a Mega, compare it to a Rokh. Then you can really start crying. 250km range and 15K hardened shields (pre hp boost)? Yes please. Yeh, not even getting started on that :P Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Tsar Maul	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:48:00 - [44] Naughty Boy's graphs are wrong as the "Normalized" option does NOT take into account reloading. Megathron with 425mm Railgun II (Spike), Tracking Computer II x 1, Tracking Enhancer II x 2, Magfield II x 3 Optimal: 200km Falloff: 30km Half Chance: 230km No Chance: 260km Alpha: 8.243 (damage mod) * 7 (# guns) * 36 (ammo) = 2077.236 Per Clip: 2077.236 (alpha) * 40 (# shots) = 83089.44 Duration: 5.26 (rof) * 40 (# shots) + 10 (reload time) = 220.4 DPS: 83089.44 (per clip) / 220.4 = 376 Tempest with 1400mm II (Tremor) x 6, Tracking Computer II x 2, Tracking Enhancer II x 1, Gyrostab II x 3 Optimal: 169km Falloff: 44km Half Chance: 213km No Chance: 257km Alpha: 17.236 (damage mod) * 6 (# guns) * 36 (ammo) = 3722.976 Per Clip: 3722.976 (alpha) * 10 (# shots) = 37229.76 Duration: 9.75 (rof) * 10 (# shots) + 10 (reload time) = 107.5 DPS: 37229.76 (per clip) / 107.5 (duration) = 346 dps
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Testy Mctest So what you're saying is, you only want me to consider situations where the DPS is more optimal for the Tempest because of the tracking issues? Right. So even when the tracking issues are lessened, it still deals less damage then a Mega; the more exacerbated the situation becomes, the larger the difference. And of course, the smaller the target you shoot at, the larger the difference too. I conceded by posting the first graph I posted that under optimal conditions there isn't much difference between the two. But the artillery rapidly diminishes under combat circumstances, whereas the Megathron continues to shine for a lot longer.. So, you admit that the 1400 are balanced damage wise then? And say that you are lacking tracking? Then stop whining about damage and start whining about tracking instead. Originally by: Testy Mctest Actually, considering base resists of for example, a Megathron: 4969 shield, 0/60/40/20 resists 5313 armour, 60/10/35/35 resists For a Megathron to eat through these defences with Spike (16kin, 20therm, a 44.5%/55.5% split) will take: 3685 Kin + 3446 Therm = 7131 raw dmg for shields 4052 Kin + 4537 Therm = 8589 raw dmg for armour Whereas a Tempest with Tremor (20exp, 16kin, splits reverse of above) will take: 6892 Exp + 3685 Kin = 10577 raw dmg for shields 3275 Exp + 4052 Kin = 7327 raw dmg for armour So, a Megathron needs to deal 15720 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron A Tempest needs to deal 17904 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron K? Yes. And selective use for the win, eh? The point is when people fit EANM2 or 1600 into that. So do the same calc with a 1600 and a eanm2 fitted. And then you'll find another result. Considering amarr ships do much much more DPS than thron/tempest and they keep whining about this... Originally by: James Lyrus You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. There is a reason why well defended POSes use artillery and autos, even on towers that get laser/hybrid bonuses. ROFLMAO. I'd expect anyone in ISS to know better. Out of the POS guns, all but projectile use CPU. That means, when a POS enters re-inforced, all weapons except projectiles goes offline. So when a fleet come to kill a POS, projectiles still fire but no other guns do. Hence everyone use projectiles on their POSes. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Danii CryoTech	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:58:00 - [46] I'm not a Tempest pilot, but reading this thread really makes me wonder - are 1400 II the only weapons that fit on a Tempest? I'm also a litte confused about whether the discussion of Mega vs Tempest is taking about fleet battles or 1 vs 1s? If it's fleet battles, then surely alpha strike isn't that important (assuming a mixed fleet and not some crazy Minnie RP thing)? Do the HP changes make the Tempest a worse fleet/long range ship than Scorp or Raven? Don't the HP changes hurt Amarr ships that use lasers, which is most of them, just as much (i.e. dmg type vs EANM II)? And further than that, it hurts the Amarr ships that use projectiles as well. Can we turn this into an Amarr whine tread now please? :-)
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Kristoffer Originally by: Jim McGregor Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. Why? For the Dominix thats going to eventually get nerfed when ECM does? Blasterthrons are going to be just as messed over by the HP changes as other ships. They usually rely on cap charges to win fights. Longer fights equal more cap charges which the megathron doesn't have. Thus these HP changes mean blasterthrons are going to be nerfed pretty heavily also, atleast in small scale pvp. thats crap. the b-throns wont get nerfed half as bad as the rest. dont forget teir 3 bs, the b-throns getting kicked off by the hyperion.
Turtla	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:03:00 - [48] so much complaining and we dont even know how this will work. We still don't know how T2 ammo will end like, so let's first see how everything will be, and then we can start burning houses. But you can't start compering things, when not all the change's are in the open. (sorry spelling)
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:04:00 - [49] Originally by: dalman So, you admit that the 1400 are balanced damage wise then? And say that you are lacking tracking? Then stop whining about damage and start whining about tracking instead. My problem is not with artillery's damage mod, no. That would be silly. My issue is with damage per second, which is affected by multiple factors, one of which is tracking. Quote: Yes. And selective use for the win, eh? The point is when people fit EANM2 or 1600 into that. So do the same calc with a 1600 and a eanm2 fitted. And then you'll find another result. The EANM doesnt make much difference, since it increases resists across the board. Plates make a difference, sure. Let's look at that. In fact, let's assume the ship in question could DOUBLE it's armour hit points, just for simplicity's sake. The Mega now takes 7131+8589+8589 = 25035 damage to break the enemy The Tempest now takes 10577+7327+7327 = 25231 damage to break the enemy So even if the plate was over 65% MORE effective than it is in reality, the Mega would STILL be a better ship for taking out that target, albeit a lot closer to even. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:07:00 - [50] Well, I've lost 1 battleship in fleet warfare through my years in EvE. The 9 involved battleships were in order of damage dealt: tempest megathron tempest tempest megathron apocalypse tempest megathron armageddon This was before the latest laser damage boost, which would have put the amarr ships further up. And in my experience, that's generally how killmails look when the involved pilots are @ an equal SP and player skill level. I don't see any evidence anywhere that a tempest is somehow gimped in fleet battles. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Syrin SouthStar Business Solutions Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:08:00 - [51] I think ill just adapt and move on with it, no sense quitting a game i like over something like this. Although capping out with rails will be most annoying
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:12:00 - [52] Originally by: Testy Mctest The EANM doesnt make much difference, since it increases resists across the board. Plates make a difference, sure. Let's look at that. In fact, let's assume the ship in question could DOUBLE it's armour hit points, just for simplicity's sake. The Mega now takes 7131+8589+8589 = 25035 damage to break the enemy The Tempest now takes 10577+7327+7327 = 25231 damage to break the enemy So even if the plate was over 65% MORE effective than it is in reality, the Mega would STILL be a better ship for taking out that target, albeit a lot closer to even. Adding one single EANM2 is the same as boosting total armor HP (including any plates) with 33.333% That does add alot. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:12:00 - [53] maybe you should think about not 100% of the time going for sniper vs sniper? if your in a sniper tempest and im in my b-thron and i get within 30km ur dead. no, dont quit eve because thats silly and over the top. this boost will boost ALL ships hp... meaning your tempest wont be able to alpha strike cruisers without being shot at... and against another sniper you get shot anyway... dont you? unless you mean sniper fights where you shoot them before they shoot you back? I think that is what tux is working against. and 70% of fights in eve arnt balanced anyway be it quantity of ships, class of ships, skillpoints, and wether the combat favours your needs (meaning if ur close combat if you get close and if ur long range u get long range combat)
Tsar Maul	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:16:00 - [54] Personally I say unban Sarmaul so he can wtfpwn you both
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:17:00 - [55] Quote: You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. Ever flown a tempest?Do you even check the ammo status ,or you just go around spewing c**.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:23:00 - [56] I fly Amarr and Minmatar ships in terms of deep specialisation. I'm not going to leave. I'm going to adapt and make my ships work as best they can. I have, however, lost faith in Tuxford's willingness to take the concerns of the player base as a whole seriously. Unfair, Tuxford? Well, that is how it appears. I think it's a shame, as I initially thought you were heading up a good approach to balancing ships while maintaining diversity in ships and gameplay. I'm also not a fan of bashing devs by reflex and I understand that balancing an MMOG is essentially like the old bridge-painting cliche. At the moment, though, you seem to be narrowing the options of many and setting yourself up for a whole raft of unintended consequences. I hope these honestly felt concerns are a result of an incomplete picture at the moment. The package of balance changes you are introducing next needs to be much wider than what you are currently telling us about. Cosmo Jericho Fraction
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Pesadel0 Quote: You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. Ever flown a tempest?Do you even check the ammo status ,or you just go around spewing c**. No, but I have flown rifter, thrasher, stabber and rupture and cyclone, and I consider them excellent PvP ships.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:25:00 - [58] Originally by: dalman Well, I've lost 1 battleship in fleet warfare through my years in EvE. The 9 involved battleships were in order of damage dealt: tempest megathron tempest tempest megathron apocalypse tempest megathron armageddon This was before the latest laser damage boost, which would have put the amarr ships further up. And in my experience, that's generally how killmails look when the involved pilots are @ an equal SP and player skill level. I don't see any evidence anywhere that a tempest is somehow gimped in fleet battles. That's because you were being focus fired on by 9 ships, and the Tempests still had their alpha strike DPS advantage by the time you died. I'm going to explain alpha strike damage, since you obviously have missed the netire point of why artillery is lessended by the hp boost: Artillery fires in this pattern: 0 seconds - shot 1 12 seconds - shot 2 24 seconds - shot 3 36 seconds - shot 4 Whereas Rails fire like this: 0 seconds - shot 1 5 seconds - shot 2 10 seconds - shot 3 15 seconds - shot 4 20 seconds - shot 5 And so on and so forth. During the early combat the Artillery has a higher DPS due to the effects that the 0-second shot has on the curve however, once you hit around 30 seconds depending on exact skills and mods, the realistic DPS weapons start to take over and the gap ever-widens. So as I said, those Tempests focus firing on you were highest on the damage list because you died quickly. Had you lasted so much longer thanks to your massive Hp boosts, you would have seen the Megas and Amarr boats above the Tempests. This is the problem; before we weren't doing too bad, great ultra-short term DPS and poor overall DPS. Now that our ultra-short DPS doesn't matter anymore, our guns are just...well, junk. Quote: Adding one single EANM2 is the same as boosting total armor HP (including any plates) with 33.333% That does add alot. But it affects both ships. The non-explosive damager moreso, of course. But still, it's an effect on both. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Spiderweb Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:32:00 - [59] If the only thing that keep some 'tards playing this game is a 50% increase in some number and its (small scale compared to a whole game) effects on some ships, then by all means go ahead with it! the game will be a much more adult place after some of these people take the boot. ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:35:00 - [60] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 11:40:13 Originally by: The Cosmopolite I have, however, lost faith in Tuxford's willingness to take the concerns of the player base as a whole seriously. Unfair, Tuxford? Well, that is how it appears. I think he takes the concerns of gallente players very seriously, and now he is working on boosting missiles even more. So what have the gallente players done to get the attention the rest of us dont get? I think its a matter of his personal interest in caldari and gallente. Maybe he wants minmatar and amarr to be fleet snipers, but I feel I should have been warned before I picked minmatar. I thought it was a fast, skirmish pvp race. Just look at the faction ships for true "balance"... fleet tempest vs CNR. Its a frigging joke. Just think about it. The lame caldari navy raven being the obvious best of all the faction ships. Does anyone seriously believe its a accident that the CNR is the best? Could it have been a minmatar or amarr ship? No way. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

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