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Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:07:00 - [1] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 07:10:32 I'm quite surprised at how many people have mentioned cancelling their accounts over the latest changes. Most Eve-ers are stalwart and take ridiculous changes on the chin, but this one is especially ridiculous, particularly for Minmatar, but also for anyone who uses their capacitor..... In addition to this, the ridiculous hour of question dodging that was the dev chat last night only served to compound the problem; Tux either refused to answer the questions on this issue, or genuinely doesn't understand the problems. Either way, it was a farce to watch. The community at large is now worried. RAMSAN+insert fart joke here+OMGKALI2 is not an answer to game balance issues. The comments about this are spread throughout threads here and on other forums/IRC, but there's a lot of them. Let's see just how many people have had enough. Vote now, and post your reasons why! Poll here! Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:13:00 - [2] Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:18:00 - [3] Originally by: Jim McGregor Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. Why? For the Dominix thats going to eventually get nerfed when ECM does? Blasterthrons are going to be just as messed over by the HP changes as other ships. They usually rely on cap charges to win fights. Longer fights equal more cap charges which the megathron doesn't have. Thus these HP changes mean blasterthrons are going to be nerfed pretty heavily also, atleast in small scale pvp.
Karma Coma	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:18:00 - [4] Im not going to comment on the changes themselves until they come out but one thing that ****es me off is the dev team goes through incredible lengths not to make any comments on the mini issue! I was reading one of the chats were tux was actively commenting on all issues asked then skiped the mini one and then stoped commenting all together... I dont even fly mini ships and its irritating me.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Karma Coma Im not going to comment on the changes themselves until they come out but one thing that ***es me off is the dev team goes through incredible lengths not to make any comments on the mini issue! I was reading one of the chats were tux was actively commenting on all issues asked then skiped the mini one and then stoped commenting all together... I dont even fly mini ships and its irritating me. Well, the answers to many of the questions were absolutely ridiculous tbh - they followed the form: Repeat question Repeat question with words changes Insert beer or fart/nakedness/Oveur joke Make comment about Kali 2 fixing it / Acknowledge problem but disagree that it's as bad as people think Next question But particularly on the Minnie question, Tuxford actually said nothing* to answer the question. (20:04:56) (~omghax0r) <[STAR]AeolusWind> As a followup to the HP increase, are there any plans to revise artillery to cope with the fact that the alphastrike capability will have been made less effective, where tanking, especially sheilds, has become more effective? (20:07:22) (@tuxford) Everything is under constant revision all the time. Another look at the hitpoint increase is the possibility that cap using turrets run out of cap before its target is dead. Actually thats exactly what happened to a fellow dev that was trying out the Rokh. Of course I'd wager that the minmatar ship would be out of ammo as well Razz (20:07:28) (@tuxford) Of course the chances that you'll end up shooting at a target alone is pretty slim, I don't see many sniper duels o.O (20:08:14) (@tuxford) We're definitly considering lowering the volume of projectile ammo. I haven't taken a look at the damage over time recently but iirc it did a bit less than both tachyon and 425mm rails but then I was looking at it with emp fitted which does less damage other turret most high damage ammo, which does not hold true for t2 charges (20:08:56) (@tuxford) and another thing when you're comparing damage consider the ships they are going to be fitted on. You can assume that a minmatar ship will definitly get a rate of fire bonus (20:09:09) (@tuxford) gallente usually a damage and amarr cap need one Do you see anything in there that answers any part of the question? I don't. Does Tux really think that when we compare DPS we don't take ship bonuses into account? And does he forget we generally have less guns than other races? Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Roxanna Kell BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:26:00 - [6] if everything gets nurfed, than its a balanced nurf ; p. All skirmishes will last longer thats all. Quote: "Don't touch the red button!"
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Kristoffer Originally by: Jim McGregor Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. Why? For the Dominix thats going to eventually get nerfed when ECM does? Blasterthrons are going to be just as messed over by the HP changes as other ships. They usually rely on cap charges to win fights. Longer fights equal more cap charges which the megathron doesn't have. Thus these HP changes mean blasterthrons are going to be nerfed pretty heavily also, atleast in small scale pvp. Yeah, I know, gallente and amarr is very much affected by this change as well. Caldari gets a boost as usual. But I like guns, and the fact is that with the current game mechanics of 20 km warp disruptors, most of the fights are happening in optimal range of gallente ships. The much higher dps of the gallente ships wont have much problems killing the extra hitpoints I think. Besides, just look at the ships... they do have the best ships in almost every class, and their fighting style is much more about raw power instead of hit & run. Tux wants to kill hit & run with the wcs changes too. Expect Vaga prices to drop alot. Ive already sold mine. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:28:00 - [8] So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:29:00 - [9] Blasterthrons aren't going to be messed up over this duration increase in fights - they'll just switch over to a plate setup. Which, tbh, works better with Neutrons anyway. Base cap recharge is enough to keep just guns going for a decent amount of time. Anyway, Domi and Raven got better - capless wonders that they are. When ECM gets nerfed, ppl will just switch to dampeners - I don't see 1v1 battleship balance changing significantly anytime soon.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:30:00 - [10] Quitting? No. But I am going to watch the development of the HP boost & associated issues VERY closely... and I'm going to do as much shouting as I think I need to. Which unless I see some real changes in the gun cap use/ammo size/cap charge size, is going to = A LOT. One thing is for sure, I am extremely disappointed with tux's actions and attitude. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:41:00 - [11] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 07:48:09 Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? Firstly, two things: 425mms have a better range than 1400mms 425mms have better base tracking than 1400mms and the thron gets a tracking boost Tempest has less dps with two DPS bonuses (Graph Coming) So, it deals less damage, it tracks worse, it has less range. All because it uses no cap. What exactly am I meant to use that sapre cap for? What modules can a Tempest fit after 6 1400mms? Because let's not forget, it takes AWU 5 just to fit guns with no fitting mods, because artillery have high fitting requirements. /me goes off to play with NB's graphs to shoot down more clueless noobs. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:44:00 - [12] Originally by: Testy Mctest And, the Tempest deals roughly 20% less DPS than a Megathron. www.learn-math-for-testing.com Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:54:00 - [13] So far I'm not minding the changes that much. Then again I'll be flying around in a t2 torp spitting raven with 11K+ sheilds and 15K+ armor doing over 1KM/s on mwd about the time kali goes live.... Pretty sure I should start running now. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
McTaggart Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:57:00 - [14] Dalman, lets see your calcs then. Don't call out people who are repeatedly right and are known to know what they're talking about without backing yourself up.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:59:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 08:06:29 Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? You are right about that (I ran the numbers in NB's excel sheet, using tech 2 and Tremor/Spike ammo), but why use a Tempest when you can use a Megathron? The megathron excels up close as well. Its better at both roles. The Tempest has a nice alpha, but who wants to play a race who's only advantage is a slighly decent alpha strike, and then sucky dps? I agree thats it can sometimes be nice to not use cap, but you never see a Tempest tank a megathron for very long despite that advantage. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rin Eyre	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:59:00 - [16] Well, you see, now it's completly obvious that Tuxford is mathematician in the all sences of this word, from comical ("where are we?" - "on the baloon!"), to utmost serious "both sides of equation must be equal". It's not that bad, actually. But with it he is not what many people imagine when hearing "game designer". Understand that and do little math yourself. In due time artillery will be as usual (god, I HATE this word!) as hybrinds. Just because of almost equal DPS for mathematical fleet fight. Maybe little more from start, equal after several volleys... and there will be many of them to work for it. So no, no quiting, I won't ever stop trainig minmatar ships. Gallente will follow. Until he reads some books on actual game design and psychology of difference importance, there is absolutly no way to hide in switching training. P.S. Minmatar, Ammar and even Gallente already gets "just usual turret ship" for Tier 3. Caldary gets differen only by accident of been only true missle and ECM users in game.
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 07:59:00 - [17] You can use the cap to activate the new modules they are going to be releasing. Right. This is the part where I hand you a chill pill, tell you to calm down, breath into a paper bag and to wait and see how it all pans out in the larger scheme of things.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:05:00 - [18] good, please cancel your account and quit so that we don't have to read these dumb threads. you guys obviously aren't mentally fit to play this game. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Reddari Now just be nice before I start to make life for the BOB devs (yes you have some) harder by exposing their player characters.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Randay good, please cancel your account and quit so that we don't have to read these dumb threads. you guys obviously aren't mentally fit to play this game. You didnt even bother to put together your own argument, so I dont really see how you can flame Testy with any credibility. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 08:22:48 Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest And, the Tempest deals roughly 20% less DPS than a Megathron. www.learn-math-for-testing.com Mega vs Pest - Speed = 0 Now let's see what happens when we add in some transversal and factor in tracking: Mega vs Pest w/ Transversal Whilst it is possible that I'm using these graphs wrong because I've missed a parameter somewhere, I'm fairly certain they're right. Note the 20%~ DPS differential in places, and the general dominance of the mega elsewhere. @everyone else: carry on flaming away, if I'd wanted to post in an area free of idiots I'd have posted on Scrapheap, but there's no point posting this there since those people know this already :P Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:45:00 - [21] Ok, I've looked at your graphs and I just don't care. 20% diffrence in damage at most, and a lot less usually. So what. Close enough, you choose your damage types, and you get free cap. 200 m/s transversal. Big deal, Mega has a tracking bonus. Tempest will still do nice burst damage, which will be nice burst damage on an aligned ship. Everything in life isn't perfect. Either take a chill pill and make do with what you've got or quit if your blood-pressure can't handle it.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:50:00 - [22] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 08:22:48 Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest And, the Tempest deals roughly 20% less DPS than a Megathron. www.learn-math-for-testing.com Mega vs Pest - Speed = 0 Now let's see what happens when we add in some transversal and factor in tracking: Mega vs Pest w/ Transversal Whilst it is possible that I'm using these graphs wrong because I've missed a parameter somewhere, I'm fairly certain they're right. Note the 20%~ DPS differential in places, and the general dominance of the mega elsewhere. Yes. So the actual DPS difference in 'perfect conditions' is 3%, not 20%, between a ship that runs out of cap and can't fire any more vs one which does not. Your second graph is correct, but "still not". First off, you hardly ever travel with 200 transversal, that figure should be lowered. Second, and more important: In such fittings, everyone use tracking computers/tracking enhancers. Redo that graph with both ships running 2 tracking computers and 1 tracking enhancer (= a real setup) and the tempest hardly has any tracking problems - bringing the DPS difference down towards 3% again. A third important point: there are 36276234546 pages of amarr whinin about how many has a plate fitted in such setups, gimping their (awesomely high) EM/thermal combo. Applying the same here, your explosive damage does more actual damage than the megathron. Fact is that your tempest does insignificantly less DPS than a megathron, without running out of cap. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Illuminaty 20% diffrence in damage at most, and a lot less usually. So what. Close enough, you choose your damage types, and you get free cap. You do realise that choosing damage types is a myth, right? Since the damage types we can do are dictated by range. Even with max skills and multiple tracking computers, we're essentially limited to Exp/Kinetic at any range past 120km. And at ranges below that, the ammo that has different damage types isn't choosable since again, you can only pick the ammo that you're in range for. And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Quote: Everything in life isn't perfect. Either take a chill pill and make do with what you've got or quit if your blood-pressure can't handle it. How cure, another 'adapt or die' post from another irrelevent nobody with no understanding of the game. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Testy Mctest [And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Yes, you can't really use your cap. But the difference is, that after some minutes a megathron doesn't have any cap at all and simply can't fire at all. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:57:00 - [25] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 08:57:08 Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest [And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Yes, you can't really use your cap. But the difference is, that after some minutes a megathron doesn't have any cap at all and simply can't fire at all. Cap injectors? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:02:00 - [26] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 09:02:15 DPS with tracking mods Originally by: dalman Fact is that your tempest does insignificantly less DPS than a megathron, without running out of cap. Hardly. Although the damage difference is different in different places, the Mega is always ahead in DPS. Always. And even once you factor in tracking modules, once you pass 175km the Mega hits a zone where it deals a huge amount more than the Tempest. And that's not to mention the fact that you aren't always shooting at a BS. Look what happens when you start shooting at a cruiser: Versus Cruisers Anyway, this argument isn't about Mega vs Tempest, that's just one example. The simple fact is, Artillery is lesser than other weapons. Until we can fit artillery and at least a reasonable tank, not using cap doesn't make up for the DPS and tracking differential. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Jim McGregor Cap injectors? Then I never ever again want to see a single minniewhine about fitting reqs on 1400. And, a megathron needs to carry ****loads of ammo rounds, leaving little room for cap charges. But ofc it's possible. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:04:00 - [28] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest [And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Yes, you can't really use your cap. But the difference is, that after some minutes a megathron doesn't have any cap at all and simply can't fire at all. After 'some minutes'. So? It's not like that's a huge disadvantage - since dreads were invented, the only real need to sustain your cap long term (shooting at POSes) has been removed. Minutes is plenty of time to continue shooting. I agree it's a drawback. But it's not enough of a drawback to balance rails against artillery. Plus, there are rather simple ways around running out of cap. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
RotatoR Star Kingdom of Manticore	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:09:00 - [29] Edited by: RotatoR on 20/10/2006 09:17:18 Originally by: Testy Mctest Another 'adapt or die' post from another irrelevent nobody with no understanding of the game. First, you should focus on problem and not how to degrade your opponents. I am not quitting this game. Sure, huge changes are coming soon. This makes bigger changes of balance issues. But I feel there should be put brake on damage vs defence ratio. Why? Player base is constantly getting older with better skills, more peeps are now using T2 fits, T2 ammo, gang bonuses, modules and so on. And the result is even big ships are destroyed very quickly. If you are worry about for example Minmatar not balanced, I think arguments starting with "I am considering of quitting" can not improve you situation.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 09:02:15 DPS with tracking mods Originally by: dalman Fact is that your tempest does insignificantly less DPS than a megathron, without running out of cap. Hardly. Although the damage difference is different in different places, the Mega is always ahead in DPS. Always. And even once you factor in tracking modules, once you pass 175km the Mega hits a zone where it deals a huge amount more than the Tempest. And that's not to mention the fact that you aren't always shooting at a BS. Look what happens when you start shooting at a cruiser: Versus Cruisers Anyway, this argument isn't about Mega vs Tempest, that's just one example. The simple fact is, Artillery is lesser than other weapons. Until we can fit artillery and at least a reasonable tank, not using cap doesn't make up for the DPS and tracking differential. Now, lower transversal to 150-160 (more realistic), and there's hardly any difference. Not using cap sure as **** makes up for the fitting reqs in fleet. The lesser tracking is made up for with falloff. In the above situation, you're the worse. Then all of a sudden one fleet decides to go in closer and you switch to short range ammo as the hostiles are 40-80 km away. And whoop dee doo now your greater falloff is of good use. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Al Haquis Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:16:00 - [31] Can I have your stuff? With love from Al Haquis
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:16:00 - [32] Not quitting, but I don't like the hp boost at all. It goes against small gangs, against low sec piracy, against hit & run.
Fi T'Zeh Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:22:00 - [33] you won't see it Al, Drama McQueen here has already quit at least once iirc. .... Real men use blasters
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Fi T'Zeh you won't see it Al, Drama McQueen here has already quit at least once iirc. Yep. Not that I've really played a massive amount since the first time I considered quitting, though. Also, you'll notice that the topic is a question about whether people are considering quitting due to the amount of people mentioning it, not a 'OMGIMQUITTING' thread. I appreciate, though, that deciphering the complicated grammar that is a question mark is difficult and understand your pain. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Jhenda	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:32:00 - [35] Im not going to quit actually Im lauging for all the whiners who goes like "sob sob they inresedd hp now I cant isntapop anuyting sob sob I gONA spo QUit" would have actually hoped that they would have increased hp even more 100 or 200%
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Jhenda Im not going to quit actually Im lauging for all the whiners who goes like "sob sob they inresedd hp now I cant isntapop anuyting sob sob I gONA spo QUit" would have actually hoped that they would have increased hp even more 100 or 200% Ah, another of Eve-O's general demographic :P The problem isn't with things not instapopping. The problem is that instapopping was Minmatar's strength to balance out their poor damage in anything above the short-short-term. Now we can't do that - which is fine - we need a buff elsewhere to keep us competative. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Jhenda Im not going to quit actually Im lauging for all the whiners who goes like "sob sob they inresedd hp now I cant isntapop anuyting sob sob I gONA spo QUit" would have actually hoped that they would have increased hp even more 100 or 200% Ah, another of Eve-O's general demographic :P The problem isn't with things not instapopping. The problem is that instapopping was Minmatar's strength to balance out their poor damage in anything above the short-short-term. Now we can't do that - which is fine - we need a buff elsewhere to keep us competative. The problem is that you don't have poor damage per second but somehow keep whining about it. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:41:00 - [38] Originally by: dalman The problem is that you don't have poor damage per second but somehow keep whining about it. So show me the numbers and the evidence to prove that artillery is balanced. For the sake of ease, just show me where it's balanced against rails. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: dalman The problem is that you don't have poor damage per second but somehow keep whining about it. So show me the numbers and the evidence to prove that artillery is balanced. For the sake of ease, just show me where it's balanced against rails. You've already done that yourself in your graphs. Show me one single fleet combat video where transversal is 200 m/s. In 90% of them, transversal is less than 100 m/s. Use that value in your graph and the raw DPS difference is down to ~3%. Your guns do explosive/kin damage, which generally have less resistance than hybrids thermal/kin (ask the 3546254744647 amarr whiners about that). Leading to that in practise vs resistance your tempest do more DPS than a megathron. k? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:21:00 - [40] Edited by: James Lyrus on 20/10/2006 10:22:38 Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 07:48:09 Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? Firstly, two things: 425mms have a better range than 1400mms 425mms have better base tracking than 1400mms and the thron gets a tracking boost Tempest has less dps with two DPS bonuses (Graph Coming) So, it deals less damage, it tracks worse, it has less range. All because it uses no cap. What exactly am I meant to use that sapre cap for? What modules can a Tempest fit after 6 1400mms? Because let's not forget, it takes AWU 5 just to fit guns with no fitting mods, because artillery have high fitting requirements. /me goes off to play with NB's graphs to shoot down more clueless noobs. You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. There is a reason why well defended POSes use artillery and autos, even on towers that get laser/hybrid bonuses.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:37:00 - [41] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/10/2006 10:38:49 Originally by: dalman Show me one single fleet combat video where transversal is 200 m/s. In 90% of them, transversal is less than 100 m/s. Use that value in your graph and the raw DPS difference is down to ~3%. So what you're saying is, you only want me to consider situations where the DPS is more optimal for the Tempest because of the tracking issues? Right. So even when the tracking issues are lessened, it still deals less damage then a Mega; the more exacerbated the situation becomes, the larger the difference. And of course, the smaller the target you shoot at, the larger the difference too. I conceded by posting the first graph I posted that under optimal conditions there isn't much difference between the two. But the artillery rapidly diminishes under combat circumstances, whereas the Megathron continues to shine for a lot longer. Quote: Your guns do explosive/kin damage, which generally have less resistance than hybrids thermal/kin (ask the 3546254744647 amarr whiners about that). Leading to that in practise vs resistance your tempest do more DPS than a megathron. Actually, considering base resists of for example, a Megathron: 4969 shield, 0/60/40/20 resists 5313 armour, 60/10/35/35 resists For a Megathron to eat through these defences with Spike (16kin, 20therm, a 44.5%/55.5% split) will take: 3685 Kin + 3446 Therm = 7131 raw dmg for shields 4052 Kin + 4537 Therm = 8589 raw dmg for armour Whereas a Tempest with Tremor (20exp, 16kin, splits reverse of above) will take: 6892 Exp + 3685 Kin = 10577 raw dmg for shields 3275 Exp + 4052 Kin = 7327 raw dmg for armour So, a Megathron needs to deal 15720 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron A Tempest needs to deal 17904 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron K? Quote: You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. There is a reason why well defended POSes use artillery and autos, even on towers that get laser/hybrid bonuses. Seriously, do you have any clue about actual game mechanics? We cannot choose damage types in practice, because in practice most ranges that are fought at nowadays we only have two choices - carbonised lead for t1 or tremor for t2. And hey, look, neither have variable damage types. And PoS warfare doesnt come into it. I don't fly a PoS. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:44:00 - [42] Edited by: Max Teranous on 20/10/2006 10:46:53 Don't compare a Pest with a Mega, compare it to a Rokh. Then you can really start crying. 250km range and 15K hardened shields (pre hp boost)? Yes please. Max --------------------
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Max Teranous Edited by: Max Teranous on 20/10/2006 10:46:53 Don't compare a Pest with a Mega, compare it to a Rokh. Then you can really start crying. 250km range and 15K hardened shields (pre hp boost)? Yes please. Yeh, not even getting started on that :P Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Tsar Maul	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:48:00 - [44] Naughty Boy's graphs are wrong as the "Normalized" option does NOT take into account reloading. Megathron with 425mm Railgun II (Spike), Tracking Computer II x 1, Tracking Enhancer II x 2, Magfield II x 3 Optimal: 200km Falloff: 30km Half Chance: 230km No Chance: 260km Alpha: 8.243 (damage mod) * 7 (# guns) * 36 (ammo) = 2077.236 Per Clip: 2077.236 (alpha) * 40 (# shots) = 83089.44 Duration: 5.26 (rof) * 40 (# shots) + 10 (reload time) = 220.4 DPS: 83089.44 (per clip) / 220.4 = 376 Tempest with 1400mm II (Tremor) x 6, Tracking Computer II x 2, Tracking Enhancer II x 1, Gyrostab II x 3 Optimal: 169km Falloff: 44km Half Chance: 213km No Chance: 257km Alpha: 17.236 (damage mod) * 6 (# guns) * 36 (ammo) = 3722.976 Per Clip: 3722.976 (alpha) * 10 (# shots) = 37229.76 Duration: 9.75 (rof) * 10 (# shots) + 10 (reload time) = 107.5 DPS: 37229.76 (per clip) / 107.5 (duration) = 346 dps
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Testy Mctest So what you're saying is, you only want me to consider situations where the DPS is more optimal for the Tempest because of the tracking issues? Right. So even when the tracking issues are lessened, it still deals less damage then a Mega; the more exacerbated the situation becomes, the larger the difference. And of course, the smaller the target you shoot at, the larger the difference too. I conceded by posting the first graph I posted that under optimal conditions there isn't much difference between the two. But the artillery rapidly diminishes under combat circumstances, whereas the Megathron continues to shine for a lot longer.. So, you admit that the 1400 are balanced damage wise then? And say that you are lacking tracking? Then stop whining about damage and start whining about tracking instead. Originally by: Testy Mctest Actually, considering base resists of for example, a Megathron: 4969 shield, 0/60/40/20 resists 5313 armour, 60/10/35/35 resists For a Megathron to eat through these defences with Spike (16kin, 20therm, a 44.5%/55.5% split) will take: 3685 Kin + 3446 Therm = 7131 raw dmg for shields 4052 Kin + 4537 Therm = 8589 raw dmg for armour Whereas a Tempest with Tremor (20exp, 16kin, splits reverse of above) will take: 6892 Exp + 3685 Kin = 10577 raw dmg for shields 3275 Exp + 4052 Kin = 7327 raw dmg for armour So, a Megathron needs to deal 15720 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron A Tempest needs to deal 17904 raw dmg to take the defences from a Megathron K? Yes. And selective use for the win, eh? The point is when people fit EANM2 or 1600 into that. So do the same calc with a 1600 and a eanm2 fitted. And then you'll find another result. Considering amarr ships do much much more DPS than thron/tempest and they keep whining about this... Originally by: James Lyrus You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. There is a reason why well defended POSes use artillery and autos, even on towers that get laser/hybrid bonuses. ROFLMAO. I'd expect anyone in ISS to know better. Out of the POS guns, all but projectile use CPU. That means, when a POS enters re-inforced, all weapons except projectiles goes offline. So when a fleet come to kill a POS, projectiles still fire but no other guns do. Hence everyone use projectiles on their POSes. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Danii CryoTech	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:58:00 - [46] I'm not a Tempest pilot, but reading this thread really makes me wonder - are 1400 II the only weapons that fit on a Tempest? I'm also a litte confused about whether the discussion of Mega vs Tempest is taking about fleet battles or 1 vs 1s? If it's fleet battles, then surely alpha strike isn't that important (assuming a mixed fleet and not some crazy Minnie RP thing)? Do the HP changes make the Tempest a worse fleet/long range ship than Scorp or Raven? Don't the HP changes hurt Amarr ships that use lasers, which is most of them, just as much (i.e. dmg type vs EANM II)? And further than that, it hurts the Amarr ships that use projectiles as well. Can we turn this into an Amarr whine tread now please? :-)
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Kristoffer Originally by: Jim McGregor Im never quitting this game. But Im definently going gallente now. Why? For the Dominix thats going to eventually get nerfed when ECM does? Blasterthrons are going to be just as messed over by the HP changes as other ships. They usually rely on cap charges to win fights. Longer fights equal more cap charges which the megathron doesn't have. Thus these HP changes mean blasterthrons are going to be nerfed pretty heavily also, atleast in small scale pvp. thats crap. the b-throns wont get nerfed half as bad as the rest. dont forget teir 3 bs, the b-throns getting kicked off by the hyperion.
Turtla	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:03:00 - [48] so much complaining and we dont even know how this will work. We still don't know how T2 ammo will end like, so let's first see how everything will be, and then we can start burning houses. But you can't start compering things, when not all the change's are in the open. (sorry spelling)
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:04:00 - [49] Originally by: dalman So, you admit that the 1400 are balanced damage wise then? And say that you are lacking tracking? Then stop whining about damage and start whining about tracking instead. My problem is not with artillery's damage mod, no. That would be silly. My issue is with damage per second, which is affected by multiple factors, one of which is tracking. Quote: Yes. And selective use for the win, eh? The point is when people fit EANM2 or 1600 into that. So do the same calc with a 1600 and a eanm2 fitted. And then you'll find another result. The EANM doesnt make much difference, since it increases resists across the board. Plates make a difference, sure. Let's look at that. In fact, let's assume the ship in question could DOUBLE it's armour hit points, just for simplicity's sake. The Mega now takes 7131+8589+8589 = 25035 damage to break the enemy The Tempest now takes 10577+7327+7327 = 25231 damage to break the enemy So even if the plate was over 65% MORE effective than it is in reality, the Mega would STILL be a better ship for taking out that target, albeit a lot closer to even. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:07:00 - [50] Well, I've lost 1 battleship in fleet warfare through my years in EvE. The 9 involved battleships were in order of damage dealt: tempest megathron tempest tempest megathron apocalypse tempest megathron armageddon This was before the latest laser damage boost, which would have put the amarr ships further up. And in my experience, that's generally how killmails look when the involved pilots are @ an equal SP and player skill level. I don't see any evidence anywhere that a tempest is somehow gimped in fleet battles. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Syrin SouthStar Business Solutions Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:08:00 - [51] I think ill just adapt and move on with it, no sense quitting a game i like over something like this. Although capping out with rails will be most annoying
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:12:00 - [52] Originally by: Testy Mctest The EANM doesnt make much difference, since it increases resists across the board. Plates make a difference, sure. Let's look at that. In fact, let's assume the ship in question could DOUBLE it's armour hit points, just for simplicity's sake. The Mega now takes 7131+8589+8589 = 25035 damage to break the enemy The Tempest now takes 10577+7327+7327 = 25231 damage to break the enemy So even if the plate was over 65% MORE effective than it is in reality, the Mega would STILL be a better ship for taking out that target, albeit a lot closer to even. Adding one single EANM2 is the same as boosting total armor HP (including any plates) with 33.333% That does add alot. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:12:00 - [53] maybe you should think about not 100% of the time going for sniper vs sniper? if your in a sniper tempest and im in my b-thron and i get within 30km ur dead. no, dont quit eve because thats silly and over the top. this boost will boost ALL ships hp... meaning your tempest wont be able to alpha strike cruisers without being shot at... and against another sniper you get shot anyway... dont you? unless you mean sniper fights where you shoot them before they shoot you back? I think that is what tux is working against. and 70% of fights in eve arnt balanced anyway be it quantity of ships, class of ships, skillpoints, and wether the combat favours your needs (meaning if ur close combat if you get close and if ur long range u get long range combat)
Tsar Maul	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:16:00 - [54] Personally I say unban Sarmaul so he can wtfpwn you both
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:17:00 - [55] Quote: You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. Ever flown a tempest?Do you even check the ammo status ,or you just go around spewing c**.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:23:00 - [56] I fly Amarr and Minmatar ships in terms of deep specialisation. I'm not going to leave. I'm going to adapt and make my ships work as best they can. I have, however, lost faith in Tuxford's willingness to take the concerns of the player base as a whole seriously. Unfair, Tuxford? Well, that is how it appears. I think it's a shame, as I initially thought you were heading up a good approach to balancing ships while maintaining diversity in ships and gameplay. I'm also not a fan of bashing devs by reflex and I understand that balancing an MMOG is essentially like the old bridge-painting cliche. At the moment, though, you seem to be narrowing the options of many and setting yourself up for a whole raft of unintended consequences. I hope these honestly felt concerns are a result of an incomplete picture at the moment. The package of balance changes you are introducing next needs to be much wider than what you are currently telling us about. Cosmo Jericho Fraction
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Pesadel0 Quote: You forgot to mention the 'does variable damage types' where I only have to tank up Kin/Therm to get past a railthron. Which given comparable DPS strikes me as reasonable trade for tracking/optimal. Ever flown a tempest?Do you even check the ammo status ,or you just go around spewing c**. No, but I have flown rifter, thrasher, stabber and rupture and cyclone, and I consider them excellent PvP ships.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:25:00 - [58] Originally by: dalman Well, I've lost 1 battleship in fleet warfare through my years in EvE. The 9 involved battleships were in order of damage dealt: tempest megathron tempest tempest megathron apocalypse tempest megathron armageddon This was before the latest laser damage boost, which would have put the amarr ships further up. And in my experience, that's generally how killmails look when the involved pilots are @ an equal SP and player skill level. I don't see any evidence anywhere that a tempest is somehow gimped in fleet battles. That's because you were being focus fired on by 9 ships, and the Tempests still had their alpha strike DPS advantage by the time you died. I'm going to explain alpha strike damage, since you obviously have missed the netire point of why artillery is lessended by the hp boost: Artillery fires in this pattern: 0 seconds - shot 1 12 seconds - shot 2 24 seconds - shot 3 36 seconds - shot 4 Whereas Rails fire like this: 0 seconds - shot 1 5 seconds - shot 2 10 seconds - shot 3 15 seconds - shot 4 20 seconds - shot 5 And so on and so forth. During the early combat the Artillery has a higher DPS due to the effects that the 0-second shot has on the curve however, once you hit around 30 seconds depending on exact skills and mods, the realistic DPS weapons start to take over and the gap ever-widens. So as I said, those Tempests focus firing on you were highest on the damage list because you died quickly. Had you lasted so much longer thanks to your massive Hp boosts, you would have seen the Megas and Amarr boats above the Tempests. This is the problem; before we weren't doing too bad, great ultra-short term DPS and poor overall DPS. Now that our ultra-short DPS doesn't matter anymore, our guns are just...well, junk. Quote: Adding one single EANM2 is the same as boosting total armor HP (including any plates) with 33.333% That does add alot. But it affects both ships. The non-explosive damager moreso, of course. But still, it's an effect on both. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Spiderweb Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:32:00 - [59] If the only thing that keep some 'tards playing this game is a 50% increase in some number and its (small scale compared to a whole game) effects on some ships, then by all means go ahead with it! the game will be a much more adult place after some of these people take the boot. ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:35:00 - [60] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 11:40:13 Originally by: The Cosmopolite I have, however, lost faith in Tuxford's willingness to take the concerns of the player base as a whole seriously. Unfair, Tuxford? Well, that is how it appears. I think he takes the concerns of gallente players very seriously, and now he is working on boosting missiles even more. So what have the gallente players done to get the attention the rest of us dont get? I think its a matter of his personal interest in caldari and gallente. Maybe he wants minmatar and amarr to be fleet snipers, but I feel I should have been warned before I picked minmatar. I thought it was a fast, skirmish pvp race. Just look at the faction ships for true "balance"... fleet tempest vs CNR. Its a frigging joke. Just think about it. The lame caldari navy raven being the obvious best of all the faction ships. Does anyone seriously believe its a accident that the CNR is the best? Could it have been a minmatar or amarr ship? No way. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:44:00 - [61] Cap problems firing Railguns over many minutes? Tell a boxer to fight for 36 minutes straight... oh look no they break it into 12x 3 minute rounds for them to catch there breath. At least there is a way around running out of cap, no way around bad tracking / base damage / base range. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:50:00 - [62] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: dalman Well, I've lost 1 battleship in fleet warfare through my years in EvE. The 9 involved battleships were in order of damage dealt: tempest megathron tempest tempest megathron apocalypse tempest megathron armageddon This was before the latest laser damage boost, which would have put the amarr ships further up. And in my experience, that's generally how killmails look when the involved pilots are @ an equal SP and player skill level. I don't see any evidence anywhere that a tempest is somehow gimped in fleet battles. That's because you were being focus fired on by 9 ships, and the Tempests still had their alpha strike DPS advantage by the time you died. I'm going to explain alpha strike damage, since you obviously have missed the netire point of why artillery is lessended by the hp boost: Artillery fires in this pattern: 0 seconds - shot 1 12 seconds - shot 2 24 seconds - shot 3 36 seconds - shot 4 Whereas Rails fire like this: 0 seconds - shot 1 5 seconds - shot 2 10 seconds - shot 3 15 seconds - shot 4 20 seconds - shot 5 And so on and so forth. During the early combat the Artillery has a higher DPS due to the effects that the 0-second shot has on the curve however, once you hit around 30 seconds depending on exact skills and mods, the realistic DPS weapons start to take over and the gap ever-widens. So as I said, those Tempests focus firing on you were highest on the damage list because you died quickly. Had you lasted so much longer thanks to your massive Hp boosts, you would have seen the Megas and Amarr boats above the Tempests. This is the problem; before we weren't doing too bad, great ultra-short term DPS and poor overall DPS. Now that our ultra-short DPS doesn't matter anymore, our guns are just...well, junk. Quote: Adding one single EANM2 is the same as boosting total armor HP (including any plates) with 33.333% That does add alot. But it affects both ships. The non-explosive damager moreso, of course. But still, it's an effect on both. You are wrong. Not about how your guns work. But the result of it. In fleet combat, you always have a new target to activate your guns on as soon as your ROF allows you to switch target. "Alpha-strike" has not, and has never had any relevance at all for fleet combat, as it only affects the start of the battle, not the start on every new target. In this case, I was being the second target picked, not the first. alphastrike is of no value. On alpha strike however, I'm finding it quite fun... Tempest locks fastest of all BSs and release it's explo damage vs shields... Then amarr locks second and fires off it's EM damage vs armor... Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:54:00 - [63] Edited by: dalman on 20/10/2006 11:54:45 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Cap problems firing Railguns over many minutes? Tell a boxer to fight for 36 minutes straight... oh look no they break it into 12x 3 minute rounds for them to catch there breath. At least there is a way around running out of cap, no way around bad tracking / base damage / base range. "lollerskates of the day"-award is handed out shared between you and the ISS guy. So you suggest a megathron to not "fire for full" to sort cap problems, which lowers the DPS. And then also complaines your DPS is lower than the thron's when it does "fire for full". Hypocracy for the win. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:55:00 - [64] Originally by: dalman You are wrong. Not about how your guns work. But the result of it. In fleet combat, you always have a new target to activate your guns on as soon as your ROF allows you to switch target. "Alpha-strike" has not, and has never had any relevance at all for fleet combat, as it only affects the start of the battle, not the start on every new target. You've just agreed with my entire point; the longer something goes on, the less effect having good short term DPS has. And hence, the longer a fight is (in fact, any length past 30~ seconds) the less point there is in you being in an arty boat. Quote: In this case, I was being the second target picked, not the first. alphastrike is of no value. Alpha Strike itself is of no value at this point, sure, but the alpha strike 'effect' is. EG, the Tempests get off 1 volley at 3k damage each. The megas get off 2 volleys at 1200 damage each. The time differential in the RoF -> time to kill make Tempests appear to have higher DPS, but in actuality, over the whole fight, they lag behind a lot . Quote: On alpha strike however, I'm finding it quite fun... Tempest locks fastest of all BSs and release it's explo damage vs shields... Then amarr locks second and fires off it's EM damage vs armor... That is quite funny :P Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:00:00 - [65] Originally by: Randay good, please cancel your account and quit so that we don't have to read these dumb threads. you guys obviously aren't mentally fit to play this game. What Randay said , any half wit who has been palying this game will just realise that every race has his OWN pros and cons and no way on earth the devs will just go like "mmmkayyy lets boost caldari and F* minmatar coz we feel liek we want to make more of our payign clients quit the game which is actualy our RL lvining" And b4 any nublar tries to go "oohhh look u fly caldari and gallnate " i have my alt who flies mini and amarr and its all about how u adapt to changes and for gods sake RETHINK ur setups , enough of those lunch box setups that ppl just wanna fit and go back home victorius !!! "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"**
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:04:00 - [66] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: dalman You are wrong. Not about how your guns work. But the result of it. In fleet combat, you always have a new target to activate your guns on as soon as your ROF allows you to switch target. "Alpha-strike" has not, and has never had any relevance at all for fleet combat, as it only affects the start of the battle, not the start on every new target. You've just agreed with my entire point; the longer something goes on, the less effect having good short term DPS has. And hence, the longer a fight is (in fact, any length past 30~ seconds) the less point there is in you being in an arty boat. Quote: In this case, I was being the second target picked, not the first. alphastrike is of no value. Alpha Strike itself is of no value at this point, sure, but the alpha strike 'effect' is. EG, the Tempests get off 1 volley at 3k damage each. The megas get off 2 volleys at 1200 damage each. The time differential in the RoF -> time to kill make Tempests appear to have higher DPS, but in actuality, over the whole fight, they lag behind a lot . How that effect hits is totally random. On some target, the projectile may get off 1 round, 2, 3 etc on another. Totally depending on the target and how many involved. Only thing that's certain is the projectile user starts off with a 'damage advantage' on the very first target called (as well as when warping back into a fight). My point was that in my experience, tempests are not gimped in fleets because their DPS in actual fleet combat is much like the thron's. And this is reflected in tempests not generally being on the bottom of killmails from fleets. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:06:00 - [67] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 20/10/2006 11:54:45 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Cap problems firing Railguns over many minutes? Tell a boxer to fight for 36 minutes straight... oh look no they break it into 12x 3 minute rounds for them to catch there breath. At least there is a way around running out of cap, no way around bad tracking / base damage / base range. "lollerskates of the day"-award is handed out shared between you and the ISS guy. So you suggest a megathron to not "fire for full" to sort cap problems, which lowers the DPS. And then also complaines your DPS is lower than the thron's when it does "fire for full". Hypocracy for the win. Congratulations you win the award of being the biggest pompus *. I wasn't just refering to just the "cap using ships" warping out, I was talking about regrouping a gang. You know as they are aligned and get strung out, start to go out of range of the targets... which a pest will do first being quickest and lowest range. Not saying this is always an option, but its not just as clear cut as "we can't keep firing for inifinty and you can!!!", your ignoring other factors that don't benifit your arguement. So look inwards first before you call others Hypocrites. ------------------------- Originally by:** "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:09:00 - [68] Oh and this isn't just resigned to a Arty issue, its the whole philosophy of the game is changing in my eyes. 50% more hp's... hit and run is dead. Killing anything before there friends alive is dead. ganking is 4tw even more, so you kill stuff before its help arrives. Increasing all combat time != better gameplay for me. (i'm assuming tux n co will resize ammo so you can actually carry enough ammo to kill something). ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:10:00 - [69] Go watch for example WrWr flying his tempest in the E3- conflict video by RAT. In that fight, had he been in a megathron, he would have had HUGE cap problems and the total damage dealt by him would have been considerably lower than what he dealt in his tempest. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Mila Prestoc hit and run is dead. Killing anything before there friends alive is dead. ganking is 4tw even more, so you kill stuff before its help arrives. All of this leading to an increase in blobbing - the very thing they're trying to prevent. What puzzles me is how clearly obvious it is that these things are bad, yet people who are paid to be involved with the game for a living clearly are less in touch with it than all of these people who simply play for a few hours a day. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Spartan 1185	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:16:00 - [71] quitting? no, but spending all the isk on snakes for my main 35 million skillpoints in mimnitar, just to be outclassed by my 25mil sp ishtar pilot blows. im thinking its time to sell off my main and just play my alts
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:19:00 - [72] Originally by: dalman Go watch for example WrWr flying his tempest in the E3- conflict video by RAT. In that fight, had he been in a megathron, he would have had HUGE cap problems and the total damage dealt by him would have been considerably lower than what he dealt in his tempest. And notace how many misses he has. I've counted more misses than I have fingers in that first scene. (I have said video saved to HD) For example that Raven doing a traversal of 60m/s at range of 85km. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:21:00 - [73] It's a wait and see situation. We won't know how its going to work until it actually happens. This speculation serves no purpose. The only valid argument I've seen so far is the "My mega/geddon/apoc/rokh will run out of cap firing its guns against the extra shield/armour hitpoints." Could become an issue but we'll have to wait and see. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:21:00 - [74] Originally by: Spartan 1185 quitting? no, but spending all the isk on snakes for my main 35 million skillpoints in mimnitar, just to be outclassed by my 25mil sp ishtar pilot blows. im thinking its time to sell off my main and just play my alts OMG OMG OMG! My 52M SP pilot, in a 1.4B navymega with 5B of equpment fitted with 3B+ worth of implants plugged in can technicly be killed by a 3M SP player in a Huginn or Lachesis. I'm gonna sell my char and get 20x 3M SP chars instead!!!! Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Uther Doull Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:24:00 - [75] what, you're quitting AGAIn testy?
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:24:00 - [76] Originally by: Mila Prestoc And notace how many misses he has. I've counted more misses than I have fingers in that first scene. (I have said video saved to HD) For example that Raven doing a traversal of 60m/s at range of 85km. I've h4xxed EVE so my 425mm always strike excellent hits and never misses. Oh wait... damn, they also miss a whole lot. But then I would not have used T2 ammo at 85km range. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams Barracudas.	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:30:00 - [77] A possible solution: GET RID OF THE DAMAGE MOD STACKING PENALTY!! And make Heatsinks/Gyros etc reduce gun cap use too. Den ________________________________________
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:32:00 - [78] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Mila Prestoc And notace how many misses he has. I've counted more misses than I have fingers in that first scene. (I have said video saved to HD) For example that Raven doing a traversal of 60m/s at range of 85km. I've h4xxed EVE so my 425mm always strike excellent hits and never misses. Oh wait... damn, they also miss a whole lot. But then I would not have used T2 ammo at 85km range. Why use it as an example if it proves nothing ?!? You provided the example so don't blame me for stating what I saw, I looked, saw pest missing lots, mega in same video hitting a lot more. If your going to provide video "evidence" I suggest you provide one that actual proves something and not just "well he did this this and this wrong and doesn't show my point accuratly" cos thats what you've just done. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:36:00 - [79] Can i have your stuff Adapt or train for another race, or you forgot amarr post rmr Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:36:00 - [80] I said he would have done less damage in a megathron because he would have had cap problems. Which is 100% true. Whether or not he would have done even more damage with different ammos is totally irrelevant and something you brought up. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:39:00 - [81] Originally by: Uther Doull what, you're quitting AGAIn testy? What, you're struggling with basic grammar and comprehension again Uther? Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:41:00 - [82] (cue Star Wars music) "The Whine is strong in this thread."
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:43:00 - [83] Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/10/2006 12:44:58 Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/10/2006 12:44:01 People quitting because of this changes ???? Thats a joke... people who say that are most probably the ones that dont log anymore, just log to change skills or are already fed up with the game anyway... I'm not quitting the game. I will adapt the setups to the new reality. Maybe sustainable setups are the answer to people whinnig that they will run out of cap before they kill the other guy...
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:50:00 - [84] Originally by: DeadDuck Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/10/2006 12:44:58 Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/10/2006 12:44:01 People quitting because of this changes ???? Thats a joke... people who say that are most probably the ones that dont log anymore, just log to change skills or are already fed up with the game anyway... I totally agree with you. If I was as big into Eve as I once was, I'd take this on the chin and carry on. But really, the game has stagnated a lot, and has a lot of issues (lag, carriers, jump queues, POS wars, etc etc) and so I've already been bored for a while. This gave me reason to cancel my accounts. Again. Not that I'm definitely quitting (as much as people like to bring that up ), but I'm not paying another 3 month subscription for 3 accounts only to find out nothing is going to change. Im still hopeful that something will be changed or altered in the way of this whole 50% hp increase. Minmatar suffer horribly, Amarr and Gallente (and Caldari with rails) suffer to an extent. In fact, everything but missiles suffer. And that means less kills and killing, which means less fun. TBH though, I don't hold out much hope. Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you were tuxford.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:51:00 - [85] Originally by: dalman Go watch for example WrWr flying his tempest in the E3- conflict video by RAT. In that fight, had he been in a megathron, he would have had HUGE cap problems and the total damage dealt by him would have been considerably lower than what he dealt in his tempest. Quoting your original post. You don't just say he has cap problems, you say "and the total damage dealt by him would have been considerably lower than what he dealt in his tempest." You bring up damage, I pointed out "well video shows tempest missing lots". I never mentioned ammo, if thats the reason he is missing so much (which it probably is) then why did you use it as an example of "cap problems so tempest does more damage" when video doesn't show that, it shows tempest missing lots so use a better example next time. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:53:00 - [86] I've payed EVE for one year in past, stoped and recently begun again. But on the face of this upcomming changes. its clear that game balance for CCp is still a joke doen with no depth toughts. So I am considering to quit again before going to deep in my new character. Every time I see something about a nerf made by CCP in the EVE history, its an over nerf. That didn't balance the feature but made it almost completely non usefull. Capacitor non usage wil lmean nothing with NOS nerf(because you may pretty much bet it will be an over nerf that will make NOS a complete waste of time).
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:55:00 - [87] Originally by: Polinus I've payed EVE for one year in past, stoped and recently begun again. But on the face of this upcomming changes. its clear that game balance for CCp is still a joke doen with no depth toughts. So I am considering to quit again before going to deep in my new character. Every time I see something about a nerf made by CCP in the EVE history, its an over nerf. That didn't balance the feature but made it almost completely non usefull. Capacitor non usage wil lmean nothing with NOS nerf(because you may pretty much bet it will be an over nerf that will make NOS a complete waste of time). Go back to your hole then sir. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:58:00 - [88] Testy having read your pathetic OP I'm not gonna read your pathetic thread you troll. Your poll is unobjective and broken, it's a voluntary poll so people are going to reply if they feel strongly about the issue (ie have objections), so if you try to conclude anything from the results you're a fool. You're acting as if the sky is falling after a post has been up for a day or two proposing some changes. Devs (Oveur) have stated they're aware of the issue and have some ideas but nothing concrete yet that they're 100% happy with. You can't blody well expect to Tux to tell you everything right away, he has a life and better things to do, unlike some people. So yes, I've had enough. Of you and your like. Please quit the forums at least, or learn some restraint, patience and understanding. Rant over. - - - - - - - - - - Quote:* I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:03:00 - [89] Originally by: Zhaine Testy having read your pathetic OP I'm not gonna read your pathetic thread you troll. Your poll is unobjective and broken, it's a voluntary poll so people are going to reply if they feel strongly about the issue (ie have objections), so if you try to conclude anything from the results you're a fool. You're acting as if the sky is falling after a post has been up for a day or two proposing some changes. Devs (Oveur) have stated they're aware of the issue and have some ideas but nothing concrete yet that they're 100% happy with. You can't blody well expect to Tux to tell you everything right away, he has a life and better things to do, unlike some people. So yes, I've had enough. Of you and your like. Please quit the forums at least, or learn some restraint, patience and understanding. Rant over. Agreed there m8. Nobody gives two *s if you're quitting or your arties ain't touching the hull after the first salvo, just like you lot didn't give a about post-rmr amarr nerf. Imo best changes, now if only multis would get fixed Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:06:00 - [90] To increase combat time I would for sure limit the amount of ships that can lock on a single ship. This would diminish concetrated firing, BB popiing. And in fact increase the vaue of AS of minmatar in compensation to sub standard art dps. That would in my point of view bennefit the game greatly. Since bigger ships specially would live far longer (not far less than smaller ships that are targeted much later in a battle). Fleet combat would last far longer. Very few guys would be dying in 2 seconds And this almost does nto change the balance between the 4 races!!
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:15:00 - [91] At least wait to test the changes to see how they translate into existing game mechanics. Minmatar have the worst sniping DPS, but use no cap and utilize the best damage type (exp/kin). Amarr have the best sniping DPS, but at the expense of the highest cap use and worst damage types. Rail boats are kinda in the middle, doing solid DPS and using moderate cap. I believe I read somewhere that the Rokh actually ran out of cap in testing, maybe from the coldfront chat? That's interesting as it looks like the best of the lot after the changes, but then you have to factor in that shield tankers have problems regenerating cap in that they can't use relays, and all their mids are used for the tank. Think a wait and see approach is in order.
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:24:00 - [92] The fact is that everybody is complaining for nothing... Kali I, will see the introduction of Combat Boosters and RIGS, can anyone in here tell us how they will affect the ships ? No Nobody knows what kind of effects RIGS will do, will they give better cap recharge, lower cap consumption, more sensor strenght? I could go on and on ... Thats 2/3 new modules in every ship, that will make all the diference in the world. Combat boosters is the same story... more damage? bigger ROF ??? .... Forget the old fits and face this like a fresh new start.
Waragha Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:27:00 - [93] Bye bye :] Originally by: Trepkos ... The only difference between GS and NPC's are that GS respawn quicker.
Vincent Almasy	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:30:00 - [94] did they ever speak of a more fair wait to have anti-missile as a valid option? defencers may stop light missles but that's it, worse then that it can't handle larget missiles and has a slow rate of fire.. also amarr and gallente normally can't use defencers from no missile points... if you get a valid missible dence system as a plain high point, like the tractor beam is, then this will lower caldari off the missile high horse aswell as minmitar to use missiles in a simular fashion.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:38:00 - [95] Originally by: dalman So what exactly is your 'alphastrike problem'? That you can't one-volley an industrial from 150km range with the HP boost? Cause for sure you must know the (1400)tempest does almost exactly the same dps as a (425)megathron, without using any cap? word 0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment
Tar om Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:54:00 - [96] I just wonder when CCP are going to get it through their heads that the higher they raise HPs, the more risky it becomes to engage when outnumbered. Here's a summary: Higher HP per ship = more advantage to greater numbers, therefore, more hiding and blobbing until the enemy is outnumbered. This all adds up to less, and more predictable combat. Congratulations CCP on a job well *******d -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
McTaggart Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:11:00 - [97] Originally by: DeadDuck Nobody knows what kind of effects RIGS will do, will they give better cap recharge, lower cap consumption, more sensor strenght? I could go on and on ... Another tanking buff wasn't it? Or at least definately not a gank one.
Omoshiroi	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:44:00 - [98] Edited by: Omoshiroi on 20/10/2006 15:47:12 For a game that is supposed to have a relatively mature player base it has always astounded me the reaction that occurs when changes are announced. I remember this with the so called Drone nerf a while ago (reducing the drone limit to 5). Many saw this as a nerf and failed to realise that drones would get an increase in hitpoints and so were able to take more damage (especially from smartbombs). Anyway, thats an arguement for another time.. The Devs are not going to introduce game breaking changes. This is a business as well as a game and so im sure Tux went through the stats involved before introducing them... Dont get me wrong everyone, Im just as passionate about this game as you all are and I want to see this game improve in server performance and game balance. However, just a note that these changes will be tested before being released and we will all have a chance to test them ourselves as well. Therefore there is plenty of time for these changes to be removed, altered, etc if needed. To the people who have cancelled or are thinking of cancelling their accounts, take a step back, breathe deeply and lets see how this unfolds...
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:51:00 - [99] tbh people here are just dumb, if the changes are overpowered they WILL BE CHANGED ofc. Let them happen and THEN SPAM ****. 0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment
Omoshiroi	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:57:00 - [100] Originally by: Kaeten tbh people here are just dumb, if the changes are overpowered they WILL BE CHANGED ofc. Let them happen and THEN SPAM ****. Well, you put your point across much more directly than I but I totally agree...
Augustus Richter Phoenix Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:58:00 - [101] If people want to quit EVE because it is evolving, then let them leave. I think it's childish to cry foul because you favorite ship is not the pawnage machine you want, cry me a river. Adapt and overcome or die out, either way stop whining. EVE will be a much more entertaining game without the constanting cry fest. Oh and have fun on WoW with the other kiddies, I'm sure that is where you'll be heading.
Tar om Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:06:00 - [102] Originally by: Augustus Richter If people want to quit EVE because it is evolving, then let them leave. I think it's childish to cry foul because you favorite ship is not the pawnage machine you want, cry me a river. Adapt and overcome or die out, either way stop whining. EVE will be a much more entertaining game without the constanting cry fest. Oh and have fun on WoW with the other kiddies, I'm sure that is where you'll be heading. Rhetoric 10/10 Content 0/10 -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Omoshiroi	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:13:00 - [103] Originally by: Tar om Congratulations CCP on a job well *******d Well, that wasnt exactly the best way to get your point across either was it?
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:16:00 - [104] Adapt or Die...tbh. (and yes I am worried about small skirmish type pvp gameplay now) Merc Blog
xenodia Gallente RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:21:00 - [105] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 08:57:08 Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest [And free cap? Sure, that would be great if we had a way to use it. The reality is, whether we use cap or not on our guns is irrelevent for artillery because no ship mounting it can use anything relevant that requires cap effectively. Yes, you can't really use your cap. But the difference is, that after some minutes a megathron doesn't have any cap at all and simply can't fire at all. Cap injectors? On a snipe setup megathron ? Not normally. Typically the few mid slots are occupied by some combination of tracking computers and sensor boosters. Take off a sensor booster, and you suddenly cant lock small targets fast enough to get a kill before they warp off. Take off the tracking computer, and you cant hit them even if you do get a lock. This signature space for rent
Tar om Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:24:00 - [106] Originally by: Omoshiroi Originally by: Tar om Congratulations CCP on a job well *******d Well, that wasnt exactly the best way to get your point across either was it? You forgot to quote the rest of the post where I explained WHY I think they've screwed up. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:33:00 - [107] Originally by: Kaeten tbh people here are just dumb, if the changes are overpowered they WILL BE CHANGED ofc. Let them happen and THEN SPAM ****. You are the only dumb here mate ,we aren't discussing IF they will FIX we are discussing when .Thyphoon broken for ...well 2.5 years if not more,minmatar carrier broken ,arties broken ,etc....And i will not even go into other races broken ships. We love eve and we want change but not some bad change,or a half-yarsed one. I guess you don¦t fly minmatar ships ,/me points at the galente love thread. And why wait for the change to happen when we can changed it now?
Omoshiroi	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:33:00 - [108] Edited by: Omoshiroi on 20/10/2006 16:35:00 Not at all, that was quite intentional. These changes have not been released, nor have been put on the testing server, not have been tested by you or others, are still in position to be changed, etc... Even though you know all of this, you still say CCP has ****** up... Like I said earlier - take a step back, relax, and we shall see what happens later... I have conserns just like you do but I am not going to react until I know for sure exactly what the results will be. If there is a game breaking change, and they dont do anything about it, THEN I shall join you
Alowishus	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:35:00 - [109] Can I have everyone's stuff?
Omoshiroi	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:36:00 - [110] Not at all Tar om, that was quite intentional. These changes have not been released, nor have been put on the testing server, not have been tested by you or others, are still in position to be changed, etc... Even though you know all of this, you still say CCP has ****** up... Like I said earlier - take a step back, relax, and we shall see what happens later... I have conserns just like you do but I am not going to react until I know for sure exactly what the results will be. If there is a game breaking change, and they dont do anything about it, THEN I shall join you
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:41:00 - [111] Originally by: Omoshiroi Edited by: Omoshiroi on 20/10/2006 16:36:22 oops, double post 3 minutes apart? :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Omoshiroi	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:43:00 - [112] Originally by: Pesadel0 And why wait for the change to happen when we can changed it now? They havnt been changed yet, and...ah you know what I going to end this post here. If people want to stress about issues that probably wont be issues when they are released then I shall let them continue...
Omoshiroi	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:45:00 - [113] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Omoshiroi Edited by: Omoshiroi on 20/10/2006 16:36:22 oops, double post 3 minutes apart? :) Lol, well Jim I thought I was editing the post I made above, but in fact I created a new post with the same information. ;) God knows what I did...I am going to put that down to a long day at work as Im sure as hell it wasnt my fault....
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:52:00 - [114] Originally by: DeadDuck The fact is that everybody is complaining for nothing... Kali I, will see the introduction of Combat Boosters and RIGS, can anyone in here tell us how they will affect the ships ? No Nobody knows what kind of effects RIGS will do, will they give better cap recharge, lower cap consumption, more sensor strenght? I could go on and on ... Thats 2/3 new modules in every ship, that will make all the diference in the world. Combat boosters is the same story... more damage? bigger ROF ??? .... Forget the old fits and face this like a fresh new start. rigs is all about DEFENCE so every ship will be tanked like hell [read devblogs] and theres little knowed of "boosters" Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Alowishus	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:07:00 - [115] Change is the only thing that keeps the game interesting. When it's the same for a long time combat becomes a science, everyone knows this science and it becomes boring and mundane. I remember being in the Coalition and fighting FIX in FAT-6P. The battles ammounted to 20 second skirmishes where both sides warped in 100km from eachother, aligned to warped out immediately, targeted the first person on the scanner alphabetically (or reverse alphabetically), fired simultaniously and warped out, rinse, repeat. This happened about 60 times in 12 hours. I wanted to drink Clorox. When there is change there is an oppurtunity to come up with new ways to do things. Combat becomes fun for a brief moment until everyone learns the optimal way to do it and it becomes boring again. People say this or that ship will be useless, and true, by conventional standards they might be. The Armageddon was once considered to be the worst BS in game. And with no changes whatsoever to game mechanics, someone came up with the Gankgeddon. Pretty soon everyone in the game was flying one, it was determined to be overpowered and nerfed. Ingenuity, or lack of it, is what will make or break a ship/race, not game mechanics. People fear change, hence the responses thus far. But it'll all be ok.
jerrard iceni Minmatar Knights of Chaos	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:13:00 - [116] just a few quick thoughts/questions (im still at work - damn stocktake) 1. are these changes only proposed changes or things that will definantely happen in kali? 2. the 50% increase to ship hitpoints. how is this split over the 3 segments of the ship? is it going to be a 50% increase to armour,shields,structure or 50% split among the 3? either way 50% seems abit high, especially if plates and so on are getting a boost. 3. are projectiles getting an increase in cap use? i cant see anything from tux about it, but people keep making reference to it. 4. the nerf to wcs seems ok i guess, they needed nerfing. 5.one thing i dont get - why are minnie being hit so hard in these changes, when caldari(best for pve) and gallente(best for pvp) arnt being as heavily effected or in the caldari case (until the ecm changes are announced anyway) getting boosted 6. arties will need looking at. alpha strike is being effected by the armour boosts, but arty damage as a whole will need tweaking. 7. will there be an increase in damage done by gate guns? because with the 50% hitpoint increase and plates/shield boost then people should expect to see alot more gate camps. 8.its a shame that theres a move towards fleet battles. dont get me wrong, the few fleet battles ive been in have been impressive and good fun. but im sure most people enjoy the small scale gang/hit&run/skirmish fights that go on everyday just as much (if not more so)and are where 90% of pvp takes place. i, for one, prefer these fights over blobs/fleet fights. 9. what are these combat boosters and rigs that some guy mentio0ned? final thoughts - sniping is hit hard, which is fair enough. but with all the other changes then all i can see is more blobs, more gate camps and low sec being even emptyier than it is now
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:16:00 - [117] Quote: It reminds me of people who accidentally discovered that the malaria could cure some diseases. Of course, afterwards, you have to recover ... They are trying to fix something by modifying everything, stuff that doesn't need fixing. So I think we have a right to complain about UN-NEEDED changes. Can anyone (tux?) explain clearly why this HP boost is needed? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Crusix Bargoth	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:20:00 - [118] Originally by: Roxanna Kell if everything gets nurfed, than its a balanced nurf ; p. All skirmishes will last longer thats all. QFTW
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:29:00 - [119] Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/10/2006 17:32:54 Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/10/2006 17:31:39 Originally by: MECTO Originally by: DeadDuck The fact is that everybody is complaining for nothing... Kali I, will see the introduction of Combat Boosters and RIGS, can anyone in here tell us how they will affect the ships ? No Nobody knows what kind of effects RIGS will do, will they give better cap recharge, lower cap consumption, more sensor strenght? I could go on and on ... Thats 2/3 new modules in every ship, that will make all the diference in the world. Combat boosters is the same story... more damage? bigger ROF ??? .... Forget the old fits and face this like a fresh new start. rigs is all about DEFENCE so every ship will be tanked like hell [read devblogs] and theres little knowed of "boosters" Exactly. Nobody knows about combat boosters and their effect in combat... maybe, just maybe, the effects will outclass or even the HP boost ???? RIGS are MAINLY defensive according with development blogs, but mainly doesnt mean ALL. Do we know what are they doing with the tec2 ammo ? Again no. All I wanted to say is that nobody knows whats happening, and are already making assumptions ... do you think that they woke up and said lets boost 50% the HP, or someone said lets screw the the Minmatars ??? There is a team working on balancing and TUX - a member of that team - is the one that makes the connection between CCP and the community.
LeviUK Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:46:00 - [120] No i won't quit but I'll probably go into another dormant phase. I recently finally got around to training Amarr BS 5 but after the EANM2s were introduced, also took Gallente BS to level 4 and trainined for large t2 hybrids just in case. I suppose had I been aware of these proposed changes earlier, I probably would have trained gallente BS 5 instead as there's no feasible way my Geddon will be able to sustain more than 4 -5mins of Tachyon II usage and as for the Abbadon? I doubt even cap boosters will help there. What I'll probably do is go play something else for a few months, read forums and see how things pan out. If the changes affect things as badly as people are crying about, then changes will be inevitable. After that period, I'll sit down and work out whether to retrain my main to specialise more in Gallente than Amarr or move to my alt which has nearly 37m SPs (10.5m in drones) and just hope for close-range fights. -
Sathrai Unlimited Blade Works	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:54:00 - [121] Edited by: Sathrai on 20/10/2006 17:55:18 Originally by: dalman Out of the POS guns, all but projectile use CPU. That means, when a POS enters re-inforced, all weapons except projectiles goes offline. So when a fleet come to kill a POS, projectiles still fire but no other guns do. Hence everyone use projectiles on their POSes. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an ex-Stain Alliance person is woefully lacking in knowledge regarding armed sovereignity POses. The only weapons on POSes that use CPU are missile launchers. Lasers, projectiles, and hybrids are all grid-only. People use arty batteries on POSes for - get ready for it - their massive alpha strike. It's much better to one-volley a battleship and have inferior DPS then it is to have superior DPS but give that ship a chance to warp out. Also, I'm fairly confident that ammunition type doesn't actually affect POS weapon optimal; EMP-loaded large arty batteries will hit you just as surely at 250km as ones loaded up with carbonized lead, in my experience. That really shouldn't really surprise anybody, though - POSes are by far the buggiest part of EVE, and that's saying a fair amount. I digress, however. I've no plans on quitting over these HP boost changes, but I do think that they're rather poorly thought-out. I'd sooner see something like increased capacitor or an improvement to tanking modules themselves rather than sweeping "generic" changes like this, which by their very nature will facilitate a whole swarm of balance adjustments in their wake. The more that needs to be adjusted, the more room there is for things to go wrong, and then we just set the stage for another bout of whines. Minor adjustments towards equilibrium - not knocking the damn pendulum all the way to the other side!
hitech redneck Digital Mind Crimes	Posted - 2006.10.20 18:33:00 - [122] this change was not well thought through. no increase in shield boosters to make up for this. no change in ammo size or cost. ammo users will now have to carry 50% more ammo. less room for loot or cap charges. ammo users cost to fight will also increase by 50% so it gives armor and beam users a big boost that they did not need.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:10:00 - [123] Originally by: Sathrai I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an ex-Stain Alliance person is woefully lacking in knowledge regarding armed sovereignity POses. The only weapons on POSes that use CPU are missile launchers. Lasers, projectiles, and hybrids are all grid-only. People use arty batteries on POSes for - get ready for it - their massive alpha strike. It's much better to one-volley a battleship and have inferior DPS then it is to have superior DPS but give that ship a chance to warp out. Also, I'm fairly confident that ammunition type doesn't actually affect POS weapon optimal; EMP-loaded large arty batteries will hit you just as surely at 250km as ones loaded up with carbonized lead, in my experience. That really shouldn't really surprise anybody, though - POSes are by far the buggiest part of EVE, and that's saying a fair amount. Indeed, CCP would have to pay me real $ instead of the other way before I'd run a POS. And my PC simply can't handle attacks on POSes. I'm really confused though :s A large artillery cannon can't one-volley a BS. So with a fleet at a POS it's just a matter if the BS is so lagged out he can't warp if the POS kills him with multiple shots. And a single non-capital ship warping in dies no matter what. Like-wise, the damage type shouldn't matter either. Any attacker need to worry about the defending fleet, not the POS guns, and so need to tank vs all damage anyway. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Sathrai Unlimited Blade Works	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:18:00 - [124] Edited by: Sathrai on 20/10/2006 19:22:56 Originally by: dalman I'm really confused though :s A large artillery cannon can't one-volley a BS. So with a fleet at a POS it's just a matter if the BS is so lagged out he can't warp if the POS kills him with multiple shots. And a single non-capital ship warping in dies no matter what. Like-wise, the damage type shouldn't matter either. Any attacker need to worry about the defending fleet, not the POS guns, and so need to tank vs all damage anyway. It's not uncommon to see a single large arty battery hit for 3000 - 5000 damage on a battleship, if not more. Lord knows I've had above-average hits creeping up into the 7000s. So a few of those things hit a single ship (not uncommon) and...pop!
MyOwnSling Gallente RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:30:00 - [125] I postpone judgement on these HP increaes until I can actually toy with them in game. ----------

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