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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23408
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Posted - 2015.04.02 19:31:19 -
[361] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera[/quote wrote: Yes, a bad hypothesis. CCP are in a far better position to judge whether or not their study was valid than you are.
Quote:Why not simply asked newbies that are 15 day olds, "Why are you quitting?" (I don't mean this directly. I mean look at wider factors rather than assume it is because of ganking.) I'd hazard a guess that they concentrated on ganking because "ganking drives away new players" appears to be a popular belief among their current subscribers, IIRC 80+% of the audience confirmed this belief when CCP Rise asked his opening questions.
Player retention is very high on CCP's agenda, as such I would assume that they're looking at many factors, ganking included, that may drive prospective subscribers away. For example they already know that the NPE leaves a lot to be desired as evidenced by the work that they're doing to improve it.
TL;DR give CCP some credit, they're not dumb and I have no doubt that the study into ganking was merely the tip of the iceberg.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Concord Guy's Cousin
State War Academy Caldari State
656
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Posted - 2015.04.02 19:34:59 -
[362] - Quote
meh wrong thead
ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"
NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:01:51 -
[363] - Quote
Guys!
"Shooting by recruiting" is a practise that's older than me in this game and that's a few years by now.
Read what is written, not what you want to read! I'll help you this one time, though no one is paying me for it.
Quote:CCP formulated a hypothesis - that new players were not staying because they were being killed by existing players - and tested that by querying over 80 000 data points from their database. They examined the correlation between deaths to other players during the trial and retention rates to test this hypothesis. Surprisingly, they found not only was there no data to support this hypothesis, they found that deaths to other players had the opposite effect.
It was CCP who wondered if it was true what carebears claimed. They checked, if it was true that a high amount of new players is being griefed out of the game by being ganked, or shot at in any other way. "80.000 data points" means nothing to you and me, but the amount of "points" means that, no matter what, they checked for quite a lot!
They found, that, those new players who forcefully interacted with someone else ... ... were far more likely to stay longer in the game.
This is connected to (and I am quoting CCP here, watch FF.) the fact that the more socially players are the ones who are staying. This comes also, but not only, from "shooting by recruiting".
Now before you scream "yeah the more socially people" ... meep, no. New players are being formed. The environment always has a direct impact on it's inhabitant. An environment inhabiting interacting human beings makes all humans happy.
If you "carebear" people actually had any friends from the other side ... ... (you hate the players, not the character) ... ... you would know that this is an actually *very common thing*.
So ... it's no hypothesis. It never was, except for CCP when they looked for it. (the issue with "data" and why I keep saying that the NPE is a social engineering problem ... ... but HEY, WHY EVEN THINK ABOUT IT AND ASK, RIGHT?? *cough* ... )
And then, after analysing their 80.000 datapoints, they learned actual reality.
That "shooting by recruiting" is a thing.
It works.
Isolation is bad.
PewPew, in a game about PewPew ... ... where PewPew is a common and natural form of interaction ... (killing is just a means of communication.....) ... actually makes people want to stay and PewPew.
Phew.
And now, as this is finally written down by my fingers, I come back to my senses and realise that ...
... this post does not matter, even though there's not a single bit of untruthfullness in it. ... there will be new people, who will make new threads and come up with the same "ignorant idiocies". ... those who PewPew have no actual interest in "ending the debate" once and for all. (yeah it's doable)
... the forum's information overload degrades people's minds to instant reactions, with no actual pause for thought before a reply. (I dare you to start looking for it!)
... the really bad people are people like Basil and some in this thread and not those who shoot or scam them.
... smart people are a minority.
*kinks*
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:10:01 -
[364] - Quote
And "Dots" is the cutest name ever! =^_^=
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1658
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:18:54 -
[365] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Yes, a bad hypothesis.
Why not simply asked newbies that are 15 day olds, "Why are you quitting?" He really is this ignorant, folks. What do you think the outgoing survey is for, may I ask? Just to ask them what kinds of Gummi Bears they enjoy?
The red ones are obviously better.
On a different note, what would possibly happen if someone made a ganking campaign just outside of newbie starter systems? |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8249
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:26:38 -
[366] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Yes, a bad hypothesis.
Why not simply asked newbies that are 15 day olds, "Why are you quitting?" He really is this ignorant, folks. What do you think the outgoing survey is for, may I ask? Just to ask them what kinds of Gummi Bears they enjoy? The red ones are obviously better. On a different note, what would possibly happen if someone made a ganking campaign just outside of newbie starter systems?
Apparently no new players would ever quit the game.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
686
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:28:13 -
[367] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:And "Dots" is the cutest name ever! =^_^=
Dots is a Sibyyl knock-off. And a noob. Gank her out of the game! |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1658
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:30:25 -
[368] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Yes, a bad hypothesis.
Why not simply asked newbies that are 15 day olds, "Why are you quitting?" He really is this ignorant, folks. What do you think the outgoing survey is for, may I ask? Just to ask them what kinds of Gummi Bears they enjoy? The red ones are obviously better. On a different note, what would possibly happen if someone made a ganking campaign just outside of newbie starter systems? Apparently no new players would ever quit the game. Mr Epeen
I'm pretty sure nobody said getting ganked gave you a 100% retention rate but what I wonder is if the retention rate of the ganked being much higher than non ganked much higher (did they give actual number or a definition of much higher?) because the sample is ~800 ganked player. If players were to push that 1% to let's say 5%, what people think the results would be.
Can someone appeal a possible ban for "harassing newbies" with the "I was pushing your retention stats" argument while fowarding a pictures of the fanfest presentation? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12400
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:38:58 -
[369] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: The red ones are obviously better.
On a different note, what would possibly happen if someone made a ganking campaign just outside of newbie starter systems?
Personally, I've often wondered about the ramifications of the Venture Killing Contest. It's not absurd to suggest that it did more good than harm, and got people engaged and shaken out of the coma that is highsec mining.
Besides that, you know what part of the existing tutorial I approve of? The one that blows up your ship and sends you home in a pod. I've had more new players latch on about that than anything else in the whole tutorial.
Which makes perfect sense to me, EVE only really gets real once you realize that you can lose.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Dots
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:45:15 -
[370] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Besides that, you know what part of the existing tutorial I approve of? The one that blows up your ship and sends you home in a pod. I've had more new players latch on about that than anything else in the whole tutorial.
Which makes perfect sense to me, EVE only really gets real once you realize that you can lose.
But doesn't Kirk teach us that the only way to beat the Kobayashi Maru is to cheat?
everything is better with ߦêߦÆߦù-ó on it
New Player Opportunities: a gallery
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12403
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:48:36 -
[371] - Quote
Dots wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Besides that, you know what part of the existing tutorial I approve of? The one that blows up your ship and sends you home in a pod. I've had more new players latch on about that than anything else in the whole tutorial.
Which makes perfect sense to me, EVE only really gets real once you realize that you can lose. But doesn't Kirk teach us that the only way to beat the Kobayashi Maru is to cheat?
True, but not all of us are Space Jesus. Or, if you're going to go Sisko on me, Black Space Jesus either.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Paranoid Loyd
4483
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:51:08 -
[372] - Quote
*Black Wormhole Alien Space Jesus
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1659
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:52:49 -
[373] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dots wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Besides that, you know what part of the existing tutorial I approve of? The one that blows up your ship and sends you home in a pod. I've had more new players latch on about that than anything else in the whole tutorial.
Which makes perfect sense to me, EVE only really gets real once you realize that you can lose. But doesn't Kirk teach us that the only way to beat the Kobayashi Maru is to cheat? True, but not all of us are Space Jesus. Or, if you're going to go Sisko on me, Black Space Jesus either.
James kinda pretend to be space Jesus...
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12403
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:54:32 -
[374] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: James kinda pretend to be space Jesus...
James Tiberius Kirk did not pretend to be Space Jesus, he was. He came(to get down), he saw(many of aliens naked), and he conquered(all that booty).
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
103
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:02:05 -
[375] - Quote
Dots wrote: Correlation is a prerequisite for causation. Did either yourself or Eli have any input as to how the data can more exactly pinpoint causation?
I have some thoughts about stuff possibly worth looking at, but I can't say whether they'll return any meaningful results.
For example: What ships were the new characters in? What systems did the ganks happen in, and how far from the starter system was it? Were the ganked characters ganked again? Was there a chat initiated between the ganker and gankee?
Quote:I've yet to see a critic of Rise's study explain in specific terms what is missing or incorrect in the data (and I don't mean creative offtopic analogies).
I dunno about anybody else, but I did not claim the data is wrong. I'm said that it doesn't support the conclusion that "ganking promotes higher player retention rates." The study shows two things. First, that only 1% of new players are ganked within their first 15 days, and from that we can conclude that CCP working to reduce ganking, like some suggest, will most likely not result in much if any increase in new character retention. Second, it shows that the 1% who were ganked were more likely to be retained - but we can't say whether that's because of the gank or for some other reason.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16220
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:05:39 -
[376] - Quote
So is it just me or would it have been super helpful if Rise had run the data to 16 days, when all the newbies quit because they're getting ganked?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Steppa Musana
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:07:13 -
[377] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Blah Are you deliberately being dense? The orginal example pertains to developers that run silly queries against the database. Asking the question "how many new players leave after being exploded by another player" is a silly question to ask when trying to assess why new players don't convert from trial to subscriber? CCP formulated a hypothesis - that new players were not staying because they were being killed by existing players - and tested that by querying over 80 000 data points from their database. They examined the correlation between deaths to other players during the trial and retention rates to test this hypothesis. Surprisingly, they found not only was there no data to support this hypothesis, they found that deaths to other players had the opposite effect. Sure, this doesn't establish conclusively that one factor causes the other, but certainly it is not a silly question to ask nor a silly way to go about testing that hypothesis. The result is strong evidence that losing a ship to another player (during the trial) is not a predictor of whether a player will stay with the game. Therefore, CCP learned that this is not an area they need to fix and can focus their efforts on other aspects of the trial that do correlate with players not subscribing. Why is that so difficult to accept? Because that isn't the conclusion your ilk are going with. You might be an exception, but mostly your kind are using this as evidence that the griefing that occurs in highsec has a positive affect on player retention. Bull.
Even in the scope of trial users... why are these players are staying more often? The study suggests that players shot in their first 15 days are more likely to stay, no argument. But does that mean shooting players in their first 15 days increases their chance of staying? Nope, even that lighter conclusion is unsubstantiated.
It could be that new players getting shot are putting more time into the game. They like the game more, thats why they are staying. In liking the game more, they put more time into it, and there chance of being shot goes up.
It could be that new players getting shot are more into that kind of gameplay. They put themselves at that risk because they dont care, or want to try it out. Its not shooting them that retains them, its there mentality. Shooting the person without that mentality will not help retain him.
So theres really a lot of ways to look at the data, but you have to actually be honest and not self serving to get to that point. And your kind, you and a few others aside, are the most dishonest and self serving group in the game today. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12409
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:14:17 -
[378] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote: Because that isn't the conclusion your ilk are going with. You might be an exception, and theres been a couple others, but mostly your kind are using this as evidence that the griefing that occurs in highsec has a positive affect on player retention. Nonsense.
Tell me, what conclusion do you draw from "the people who get non consensually destroyed have by far the best retention rate", may I ask?
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post, because it's just you making thin excuses for your purely emotional rejection of data that you don't want to believe to be true.
Quote: And your kind, you and a few others aside, are the most dishonest and self serving group in the game today.
Oh, the irony.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Paranoid Loyd
4486
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:18:28 -
[379] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:your kind You sound like a racist redneck.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
140
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:23:11 -
[380] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Can someone appeal a possible ban for "harassing newbies" with the "I was pushing your retention stats" argument while fowarding a pictures of the fanfest presentation? One can appeal a ban with any reason. That doesn't mean one will get away with it.
Obviously he'd had to prove this boost of retention rate, which he won't be able to if he just keeps ganking them.
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23409
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:23:59 -
[381] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:Because that isn't the conclusion your ilk are going with. You might be an exception, but mostly your kind are using this as evidence that the griefing that occurs in highsec has a positive affect on player retention. Nonsense. They do claim stuff like this because it makes people like you froth at the mouth.
Quote:Even in the scope of trial users... why are these players staying more often? The study suggests that players shot in their first 15 days are more likely to stay, no argument. But does that mean shooting players in their first 15 days increases their chance of staying? Nope, even that lighter conclusion is unsubstantiated. The study was to see if ganking and other PvP affected new player retention, your question of why people who get shot at stay longer is outside the limited scope of the study,in fact it'd be a whole new study.
Quote:[It could be that new players getting shot are putting more time into the game. They like the game more, thats why they are staying. In liking the game more, they put more time into it, and there chance of being shot goes up.
It could be that new players getting shot are more into that kind of gameplay. They put themselves at that risk because they dont care, or want to try it out. Its not shooting them that retains them, its there mentality. Shooting the person without that mentality will not help retain him. The right mentality is essential, I think that may be the first thing I've ever seen you post that I can agree with; looks like hell just froze over.
Quote:So theres really a lot of ways to look at the data, but you have to actually be honest and not self serving to get to that point. And your kind, you and a few others aside, are the most dishonest and self serving group in the game today. Given your expertise in these matters...
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2603
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:29:19 -
[382] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:mostly your kind are using this as evidence that the griefing that occurs in highsec...
...exists outside your mind.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
142
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:29:38 -
[383] - Quote
Do you actually do this IRL too?
I mean ... this argueing with someone. It's like argueing about god and religion.
Does god exist? Is ganking bad for new players?
When different beliefs clash together, *talking about what's true* is the most nonsensical thing to do.
You take the facts. You stick them somewhere. When an ******* comes along, you point at the facts and tell him to shut up.
No discussions. No argueing. No debate.
Facts and HTFU.
*sighs* maybe next month ...
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
142
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:32:23 -
[384] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Steppa Musana wrote:mostly your kind are using this as evidence that the griefing that occurs in highsec... ...exists outside your mind. Of course there's griefing, but it's miniscule.
There's always an ******* around somewhere, but carebears always believe that it's literally everywhere.
I know one of these IRL too. Very smart person, but keeps falling for the hearsay, because he saw it happening *once*.
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23412
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:34:33 -
[385] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Do you actually do this IRL too?[/url]
Not empty quoting
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8253
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:36:12 -
[386] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Which makes perfect sense to me, EVE only really gets real once you realize that you can lose.
Do tell.
What have you participated in with any risk of losing? Awoxing? Miner bumping?
You're not exactly an authority on any part of this game except taking advantage of unarmed opponents. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Just stop acting like you are something you're not.
Be proud of who you are, Kaarous. There's no shame in being afraid to engage someone that might shoot back. Own your fear.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
143
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:36:41 -
[387] - Quote
I love that one! :D
This one should be a thing here!
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2604
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:37:04 -
[388] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Which makes perfect sense to me, EVE only really gets real once you realize that you can lose.
Do tell. What have you participated in with any risk of losing? Awoxing? Miner bumping? You're not exactly an authority on any part of this game except taking advantage of unarmed opponents. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Just stop acting like you are something you're not. Be proud of who you are, Kaarous. There's no shame in being afraid to engage someone that might shoot back. Own your fear. Mr Epeen
Says the forum alt.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
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Paranoid Loyd
4489
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:39:50 -
[389] - Quote
Pots and kettles everywhere.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2604
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Posted - 2015.04.02 21:42:17 -
[390] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Pots and kettles everywhere.
I'd love a cup of tea, please.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
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