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Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12287	Posted - 2015.03.26 05:10:39 - [241] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: the weatherman tells you it's going to be raining on tuesday evening, when you planned on going out do you a) send angry emails to the weather service complaining they must be wrong, asserting their analysis must be full of holes because the data wasn't presented on television in its entirety or b) bring an umbrella C. Stay home and drink. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Jenshae Chiroptera The Volition Cult 1162	Posted - 2015.03.26 10:15:02 - [242] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: i should start logging into themepark games' forums to start complaining that newbies are leaving the game in droves because i can't pk them Clutches you side ways and pans arm across the horizon out ahead of us dramatically, painting an landscape of the imagination. Imagine if there were two corporation boards, one for mercenaries and one for "white knights". Then when once corp / alliance contracts another, the white knight corp / alliance agrees or refuses to join a war defending a bunch of newbies. At the end of the war, the newbie corp gets to rate the white knight corp and leave a comment. Just imagine giving the weak tools to get help? Shocking idea isn't it? CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . SOV is stagnant because Low Sec is not the next step from High Sec and a viable place to grow alliances to the point they can challenge Null alliances. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10454	Posted - 2015.03.26 12:13:09 - [243] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: the weatherman tells you it's going to be raining on tuesday evening, when you planned on going out do you a) send angry emails to the weather service complaining they must be wrong, asserting their analysis must be full of holes because the data wasn't presented on television in its entirety or b) bring an umbrella C. Stay home and drink. D. Dig a tunnel to your destination from your basement, which not only lets you go out while staying dry, it lets you avoid those pesky angry ex-girlfriends an/or their husbands with whom you may have had some disputes D is how I do EVE
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12290	Posted - 2015.03.26 12:14:40 - [244] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: the weatherman tells you it's going to be raining on tuesday evening, when you planned on going out do you a) send angry emails to the weather service complaining they must be wrong, asserting their analysis must be full of holes because the data wasn't presented on television in its entirety or b) bring an umbrella C. Stay home and drink. D. Dig a tunnel to your destination from your basement, which not only lets you go out while staying dry, it lets you avoid those pesky angry ex-girlfriends an/or their husbands with whom you may have had some disputes D is how I do EVE That reminds me of a children's book. Something about a fox and a trio of bad guys, one short, one fat, and one lean. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 3250	Posted - 2015.03.30 19:20:37 - [245] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: i should start logging into themepark games' forums to start complaining that newbies are leaving the game in droves because i can't pk them Clutches you side ways and pans arm across the horizon out ahead of us dramatically, painting an landscape of the imagination. Imagine if there were two corporation boards, one for mercenaries and one for "white knights". Then when once corp / alliance contracts another, the white knight corp / alliance agrees or refuses to join a war defending a bunch of newbies. At the end of the war, the newbie corp gets to rate the white knight corp and leave a comment. Just imagine giving the weak tools to get help? Shocking idea isn't it? Ganker group creates a fake white knight corp. Ganker group creates several fake newbe corps (from alts) Ganker group war decs fake newbie corps Newbe corps give glowing reports of the fake white knight corp Gankers use their fake white knight corp, that now looks wonderful, to herd a few real newbie corps like lambs to the slaughter. Don't think it will happen? It already does. When a high sec corp gets a war dec, they also quickly get offers of assistance. A little research ( for those corps that actually do research) point to the potential allies being alts of the war deccers. Know a Frozen fan? Check this out Frozen fanfiction
Serene Repose 2526	Posted - 2015.03.30 19:35:57 - [246] - Quote Didn't we euthanize this thread? Or, was it cauterize? It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
Jenshae Chiroptera 1176	Posted - 2015.03.31 00:02:43 - [247] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Didn't we euthanize this thread? Or, was it cauterize? Badly formed stats that make some of us question what CCP is doing? That can't be toppled by opinions. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12359	Posted - 2015.03.31 00:15:51 - [248] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: I wonder how many get "griefed out of the game" without actually being griefed. That is: They are in their starter corp. They talk to others about moving on. Others tell them its not worth it. They say that once in a player corp, you are vulnerable to wars, or jerks in your new corp. The new player stays in the NPC corp, socializing very little. Eventually, they leave Eve. They did not leave because of being griefed, they left because they did not want to be griefed. That's extremely damning of the people currently in NPC corps, that they would rather wet blanket new players out of the game than actually let them play for themselves. That's just goddamned shameful, is what that is. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 888	Posted - 2015.03.31 06:22:36 - [249] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: I wonder how many get "griefed out of the game" without actually being griefed. That is: They are in their starter corp. They talk to others about moving on. Others tell them its not worth it. They say that once in a player corp, you are vulnerable to wars, or jerks in your new corp. The new player stays in the NPC corp, socializing very little. Eventually, they leave Eve. They did not leave because of being griefed, they left because they did not want to be griefed. Ok, so the new carebear argument is that people quit because thei expect to experience somthing they did not actually experience, because other carebears told them the game is not word playing... in the light of the new data, which shows that if you gank a newbro that it is actually more probable that he will stay in the game, is it not reasonable to assume that the carebears who spew this nonsense are the real problem for player retention? the Code ALWAYS wins
Thora Zhubilai University of Caille Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.03.31 11:10:10 - [250] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: [quote=Jenshae Chiroptera][quote=Benny Ohu] When a high sec corp gets a war dec, they also quickly get offers of assistance. A little research ( for those corps that actually do research) point to the potential allies being alts of the war deccers. Not really the "News of the day"...haha Hi all!
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10496	Posted - 2015.03.31 11:15:02 - [251] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: I wonder how many get "griefed out of the game" without actually being griefed. That is: They are in their starter corp. They talk to others about moving on. Others tell them its not worth it. They say that once in a player corp, you are vulnerable to wars, or jerks in your new corp. The new player stays in the NPC corp, socializing very little. Eventually, they leave Eve. They did not leave because of being griefed, they left because they did not want to be griefed. Ok, so the new carebear argument is that people quit because thei expect to experience somthing they did not actually experience, because other carebears told them the game is not word playing... in the light of the new data, which shows that if you gank a newbro that it is actually more probable that he will stay in the game, is it not reasonable to assume that the carebears who spew this nonsense are the real problem for player retention? Absolutely not! Why? Well, on the grounds that "this would not fit the narrative they hold dear, therefore your logic is invalid!". Sorry if my translation is sloppy, I haven't had an opportunity to actually use my Carebear-ese in 7 years since I stopped playing WoW
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1988	Posted - 2015.03.31 11:20:58 - [252] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Ok, so the new carebear argument is that people quit because thei expect to experience somthing they did not actually experience, because other carebears told them the game is not word playing... in the light of the new data, which shows that if you gank a newbro that it is actually more probable that he will stay in the game, is it not reasonable to assume that the carebears who spew this nonsense are the real problem for player retention? Except the data doesn't show what you claim it does...... So lets quit spewing that nonsense also. Additionally a lot of them are scared by the potential of a gank because they do the maths, do the logic, and realise that if they want to do X activity in a reasonable fashion, they can't stop someone ganking them easily. And decide they aren't interested in that game play where they can't make an income without gank risk. Now a lot of those people may not be suited for EVE, so this may not be as big a problem as it appears anyway. But perceived risk is a big thing. Lets take a non highsec argument, AFK cloakies. 'But if they are AFK they aren't a risk' 'They might not have a cyno also, just a troll cloaky' etc. But the perceived risk is 'They are pretending to be AFK but actually watching, and do have a cyno' So the Null response is in most cases 'Don't undock to a Cloaky camper'. The Newbies response to this is identical to that pattern, except because they have so little invested in EVE, they respond by quitting instead.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10498	Posted - 2015.03.31 12:40:24 - [253] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: I wonder how many get "griefed out of the game" without actually being griefed. That is: They are in their starter corp. They talk to others about moving on. Others tell them its not worth it. They say that once in a player corp, you are vulnerable to wars, or jerks in your new corp. The new player stays in the NPC corp, socializing very little. Eventually, they leave Eve. They did not leave because of being griefed, they left because they did not want to be griefed. I would hope so. EVE is a harsh sandbox (well, most of it is anyways). If the idea of ganking or scamming or loss etc puts a person off to the point where they stop playing a game, that person should have avoided that game in the 1st place.
Jenshae Chiroptera 1178	Posted - 2015.03.31 13:03:24 - [254] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: .... since I stopped playing WoW Well, that explains a great deal. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10503	Posted - 2015.03.31 13:15:09 - [255] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: .... since I stopped playing WoW Well, that explains a great deal. Yea, I played WoW for 4 months 7 almost 8 years ago (after being dragged there by the guy who introduced me to EVE). I will now be committing Seppuku to atone. Anyone see where I left my sword?
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12366	Posted - 2015.03.31 13:39:58 - [256] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: .... since I stopped playing WoW Well, that explains a great deal. Yea, I played WoW for 4 months 7 almost 8 years ago (after being dragged there by the guy who introduced me to EVE). I will now be committing Seppuku to atone. Anyone see where I left my sword? You left your sword in the Caverns of Time. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Mag's the united 19208	Posted - 2015.03.31 13:59:40 - [257] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: .... since I stopped playing WoW Well, that explains a great deal. Check list: Helped kill a Titan? - Yes Helped kill a Super? - Yes Helped destroy a POS? - Yes Gang fights? - Yes Fleet fights? - Yes Killed hot droppers? - Yes Hot dropped? - Yes So, I have a basis for saying the following: Being 100% safe while AFK and cloaked? - Broken mechanic. Whole regions blanketed by AFK cloakers? - Clearly not working as intended. Remove Local from Null Sec? - Obviously a silly idea. AFK cloakers are play denial. Imagine warp disruption bubbles in High Sec and suicide gankers station camping people. It isn't just play denial for those being camped. It is play denial for real hunters that find the systems mostly empty because of cloakers, while the residents are playing their High Sec alts. You can say all you want, after doing even more in Eve. Doesn't make you right, or show you have a clue. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Eve Solecist Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 67	Posted - 2015.03.31 14:33:52 - [258] - Quote Mag's wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: .... since I stopped playing WoW Well, that explains a great deal. Check list: Helped kill a Titan? - Yes Helped kill a Super? - Yes Helped destroy a POS? - Yes Gang fights? - Yes Fleet fights? - Yes Killed hot droppers? - Yes Hot dropped? - Yes So, I have a basis for saying the following: Being 100% safe while AFK and cloaked? - Broken mechanic. Whole regions blanketed by AFK cloakers? - Clearly not working as intended. Remove Local from Null Sec? - Obviously a silly idea. AFK cloakers are play denial. Imagine warp disruption bubbles in High Sec and suicide gankers station camping people. It isn't just play denial for those being camped. It is play denial for real hunters that find the systems mostly empty because of cloakers, while the residents are playing their High Sec alts. You can say all you want, after doing even more in Eve. Doesn't make you right, or show you have a clue. I feel like adding something. Why do they play in highsec? Because it's safe. Why do they fear cloakers? Because it turns their "highsec" (rented null, but safe) into actual nullsec. Conclusion: They are cowards. Solution: Remove cowards and highsec. "Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 894	Posted - 2015.03.31 14:54:56 - [259] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Ok, so the new carebear argument is that people quit because thei expect to experience somthing they did not actually experience, because other carebears told them the game is not word playing... in the light of the new data, which shows that if you gank a newbro that it is actually more probable that he will stay in the game, is it not reasonable to assume that the carebears who spew this nonsense are the real problem for player retention? Except the data doesn't show what you claim it does...... So lets quit spewing that nonsense also. Additionally a lot of them are scared by the potential of a gank because they do the maths, do the logic, and realise that if they want to do X activity in a reasonable fashion, they can't stop someone ganking them easily. And decide they aren't interested in that game play where they can't make an income without gank risk. Now a lot of those people may not be suited for EVE, so this may not be as big a problem as it appears anyway. But perceived risk is a big thing. Lets take a non highsec argument, AFK cloakies. 'But if they are AFK they aren't a risk' 'They might not have a cyno also, just a troll cloaky' etc. But the perceived risk is 'They are pretending to be AFK but actually watching, and do have a cyno' So the Null response is in most cases 'Don't undock to a Cloaky camper'. The Newbies response to this is identical to that pattern, except because they have so little invested in EVE, they respond by quitting instead. CCP Rise explicitely stated in his talk that the data shows that retention is higher for people who lost a ship and even higher form the 1% who lost it in a gank. Feel free to watch the video again if you still are in denial. Now this new carebear tactic is just gold, you basically changed your theory about why people quit to something you think they can't measure. But they did.. if that was really the case it would show in the survey about why people quit. Carebears are usually not the quiet types if it comes to whining why eve is dying. Everything they measured pointed in the direction that more interaction between players is good for retention and isolation is bad. There is not a shred of evidence that even remotely suports your side of the argument. the Code ALWAYS wins
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10505	Posted - 2015.03.31 15:02:00 - [260] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: CCP Rise explicitely stated in his talk that the data shows that retention is higher for people who lost a ship and even higher form the 1% who lost it in a gank. Feel free to watch the video again if you still are in denial. Now this new carebear tactic is just gold, you basically changed your theory about why people quit to something you think they can't measure. But they did.. if that was really the case it would show in the survey about why people quit. Carebears are usually not the quiet types if it comes to whining why eve is dying. Everything they measured pointed in the direction that more interaction between players is good for retention and isolation is bad. There is not a shred of evidence that even remotely supports your side of the argument. See the bolded part? If you think not having a shred of evidence means anything to certain people, well then I got some prime beach front property in Arizona that you just have to take a look at, I'll make you a great deal on it But more seriously, that's why i keep linking this here, because it describes what happens in these kinds of cases: people with zero evidence doubting the evidence of people with at least some supporting data. Apparently they all go to the church of "I know a dude who did that!" lol.
Mallory Crendraven Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.03.31 15:07:29 - [261] - Quote Sibyyl wrote: 1% ganked statistic to the 90% that drops out of game. Thanks for that link. That explains A LOT.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1650	Posted - 2015.03.31 15:17:24 - [262] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: I wonder how many get "griefed out of the game" without actually being griefed. That is: They are in their starter corp. They talk to others about moving on. Others tell them its not worth it. They say that once in a player corp, you are vulnerable to wars, or jerks in your new corp. The new player stays in the NPC corp, socializing very little. Eventually, they leave Eve. They did not leave because of being griefed, they left because they did not want to be griefed. That's extremely damning of the people currently in NPC corps, that they would rather wet blanket new players out of the game than actually let them play for themselves. That's just goddamned shameful, is what that is. I'm pretty sure the player who chat in NPC corps just don't know any better than flat out try to ruin it for others. The result is the same but I think it's a stretch to assume they willingly do so. I don't really remember seeing any counter argument when question were asked in my npc corp chat beside the war are dangerous and gankers are terrible narrative. The result is still the same tho, the wrong info is absorbed by the newbie and from there it's pretty bad...
Chewytowel Haklar Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2015.03.31 15:17:51 - [263] - Quote I look at it this way, the true cost of this game to a new player is potentially relative to the cost they are willing to pay to PLEX. If you loose a lot of ships, and your income via PVE isn't enough (which is likely the case for newer players like myself due to skill training times, intelligent/unintelligent skill planning, lack of skill focus cause new to game, etc) then you likely see PLEX as a way to get yourself back into the game. Yet, that success of avoiding ganks or to other activities is also likely tied into two things, do you have alts and do you have the right skills? Then there comes the fitting your ship intelligently part and being able to do that with the isk while also having the right skills. At first your options are very limited in what you can do, unless you are really good at gaming or finding creative solutions. On top of all of this we have the EVE learning curve, which I believe is proportional to isk spent in the first few months and up to the first year in EVE. If I am starting out I am likely to avoid those things that cause me to loose ships because my starting isk is low. I could by more PLEX, but I would have to keep buying lots of PLEX while already paying a sub on top of that. I won't be able to play for free like others in EVE who have mastered the art of playing for free. Thus the game can become very costly for a new player if they end up loosing plenty of ships to pve activities, ganking, and just experimenting with the various activities within EVE. Patience is also a factor as we have to wait for those skills to train up so we can get into that really cool mining barge, or exploration ship, or PI... and so on and so forth. I think that most avoid pvp because of these things, and those it does happen to also have to face facts with the costs and limitations of their single character. Of course I could easily use another character with a bantum and a griffin to help my own characters if I wanted to feel a bit more powerful in PVP, or I could even buy a ton of PLEX and get myself a high skill point character focused on what I want in EVE. Yet, that would require me spending hundreds for just that one character, and frankly that is where it is cost prohibitive for me. I'd perhaps then have to spend thousands on just this game if I didn't want to wait to have characters specialized in various roles if I didn't care to earn isk the old fashioned way. Hell, even running those incursions seems to take several months of proper skill training plus of course the isk to buy the ship and fit it up right. Anyway those are my random thoughts.
admiral root Red Galaxy 2577	Posted - 2015.03.31 15:25:59 - [264] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: the weatherman tells you it's going to be raining on tuesday evening, when you planned on going out... LMFAO, since when are weathermen right? The answer is C) wear shorts and T-shirt and have plenty of chilled water on hand - it's gonna be a scorcher. Vincent Athena wrote: I wonder how many get "griefed out of the game" without actually being griefed. That is: They are in their starter corp. They talk to others about moving on. Others tell them its not worth it. They say that once in a player corp, you are vulnerable to wars, or jerks in your new corp. The new player stays in the NPC corp, socializing very little. Eventually, they leave Eve. They did not leave because of being griefed, they left because they did not want to be griefed. No, they leave because people perpetuate myths and lies, which some newbies simply believe rather than finding out the truth for themselves. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff \| No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that. A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H. 465	Posted - 2015.03.31 15:42:17 - [265] - Quote Can only recommend watching CCP Quant go a bit more in depth with the numbers. Data Science behind EVE
Jenshae Chiroptera 1181	Posted - 2015.03.31 22:24:34 - [266] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Don't think it will happen? It already does. When a high sec corp gets a war dec, they also quickly get offers of assistance. A little research ( for those corps that actually do research) point to the potential allies being alts of the war deccers. Done right the really good ones would float to the top, like how Red Frog is known for their industrial work. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Dots Center for Advanced Studies 1	Posted - 2015.03.31 22:29:48 - [267] - Quote Red Frog uses NPC Corp alts for hauling, so I'm not sure wardeccing really applies to them. Edit: Grr, autocorrect everything is better with ß¦êß¦Æß¦ù-ó on it New Player Opportunities: a gallery
Jenshae Chiroptera 1181	Posted - 2015.03.31 22:36:04 - [268] - Quote Dots wrote: Red Frog uses NPC Corp alts for hauling, so I'm not sure wardeccing really applies to them. Edit: Grr, autocorrect Spies and suicide gankers do apply CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 566	Posted - 2015.04.01 03:56:34 - [269] - Quote until its safe to be in a highsec PvE corps because wars have been nerfbatted, new players will continue to shrug and quit in droves.
Lienzo Amanuensis 67	Posted - 2015.04.01 04:23:12 - [270] - Quote Players leave the game because no one plays with them. Lots of people are just reticent to tug on anyone's shirt sleeve. Make eve voice an auto-on feature so that other players can automatically hear people, especially local traffic, like people on grid. Give them an Opportunity achievement the first time they mic up. Disable it to "listen only" if grid numbers go above twenty people. I wouldn't mind hearing some chatter from npcs, concord and billboards. The results will either be successful, or silly, or probably both. Honestly, what is there to lose.. other than a bit of innocence that's probably holding you back anyway. This is a themepark. It can only distract solo players for so long. Perhaps we could throw in a some co-op content in starter systems. Some kind of mini-incursion maybe? Cage match? Perhaps it could have dungeon mechanics where people had to be in a fleet in order to get inside. Perhaps we could start players in fleets when they join, or have an npc managed standing fleet in starting corps with no fleet roles. Perhaps the fleet boss could give people co-op missions while they are in space.

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