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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 01:47:00 -
[121]
CCP should try to figure out when the market is becoming unstable due to highly increased demand and try to stabilize it by seeding more BPOs.
If this is done right then the value of the BPOs will remaind constant at whatever level, as will the price.
Demand is continuously increasing and invention is the only way to increase supply.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Extreme
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 01:57:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Extreme on 23/10/2006 02:05:54
Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents.
I bet 90% of yours have all your R&D agents set to research Starship Engineering all at the same faction. Result: Very small chance.
Aside of this, a starship BPO T2 is actually only valuable in the right hands (read; right corporations)
It will involve alot of manpower by members to setup and maintain towers for moonharvesting materials -> producing simple reactions -> complex reactions -> intermediates -> T2 construction components -> high risk freighter trips from deepspace to empire -> producing T2 ships -> selling ships with maxed tradeskills -> buy fuels off market -> freighter these fuels back to deepspace to keep your pos's running.
... meanwhile you have to hold/defend your claimed deepspace region and clean the region from hostiles that are roaming around.
This will answer many questions why the most valuable T2 bpo's will end up at the larger (deepspace) corporations.
For a fact, a Claymore Commandship cost of production is around 80 Million isk and that ship does only sell for around 80M isk, ZERO profit there as you have to calculate all the taxes too. Field Command ships however generate a bit better isk.
The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now.
In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Investing in large isk costing projects making isk disappear from the game is a good way to reduce 'inflation'. If CCP would release more rare bpo's then there's no way to "take isks out of game"
I'm sorry if i step on many toes here but CCP ain't doing bad at all.
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Father Weebles
Panzershrek
Blood Raiders Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 02:10:00 -
[123]
Here's a joke
Why should a hulk be rare? Because a tech2 bpo winnar said so LOL!
"Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control." |
Genericforumalt
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2006.10.23 02:13:00 -
[124]
 Originally by: Father Weebles
Here's a joke
Why should a hulk be rare? Because a tech2 bpo winnar said so LOL!
b-cuz swaffer needs his minring dreds.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.23 02:29:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Eilie
The supply would still be limited in this system due to the limit of RP/day that you can make. It would take years for the rarer items to become sold at near cost prices. By than, T3 should already be out so it wouldn't matter.
If you read the devblog they referenced a NON-RP way to get datacores. There will be SOME cap to the supply but it wont be as low as you think.
That quote had nothing to do with Invention. I was talking about the system that I had proposed in a previous post which would have been more fair than the lottery.
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Eilie
If they release T3 through the same system... well let's not think about that. 
What else are they going to do? Its better to randomnly distribute them then to hand limited resources to power gamers. People who grind should be buying these BPOs (and they are) not being handed them for grinding.
There isn't a better system than the lottery because randomness with limited ways to improve your chances is the most fair way you can do things.
Actually the people buying most of the T2 BPOs are people who won other T2 BPOs... Anyway, this is the system I had proposed in a previous post which I believe is alot more fair:
Originally by: Eilie
Keep the current research agents and auto RP gain system. Than allow people to buy BPOs from the agents for a combination of RP and ISK. Since you can only get a limited amount of RP per day, the BPOs will remain limited. The ISK you can get however method you like (missions, ratting, mining) in either 0.0 or empire.
Cheap and common stuff would be sold for maybe 10k RP and 50mil ISK so that new players could start building T2 after a few weeks. Rare stuff like HACs could cost 200k RP and 10bil ISK which will allow them to remain rare but allow everyone an equal chance of eventually obtaining one.
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Padack
Dark Star Combine
Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 02:38:00 -
[126]
or allow them to be won from agents like faction ships. BPO's in most cases would not help people because the average person does not have the abiliy to produce the nessary parts also needed to construct it.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.23 02:45:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Extreme
Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents.
I bet 90% of yours have all your R&D agents set to research Starship Engineering all at the same faction. Result: Very small chance.
Aside of this, a starship BPO T2 is actually only valuable in the right hands (read; right corporations)
It will involve alot of manpower by members to setup and maintain towers for moonharvesting materials -> producing simple reactions -> complex reactions -> intermediates -> T2 construction components -> high risk freighter trips from deepspace to empire -> producing T2 ships -> selling ships with maxed tradeskills -> buy fuels off market -> freighter these fuels back to deepspace to keep your pos's running.
... meanwhile you have to hold/defend your claimed deepspace region and clean the region from hostiles that are roaming around.
This will answer many questions why the most valuable T2 bpo's will end up at the larger (deepspace) corporations.
For a fact, a Claymore Commandship cost of production is around 80 Million isk and that ship does only sell for around 80M isk, ZERO profit there as you have to calculate all the taxes too. Field Command ships however generate a bit better isk.
The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now.
In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Investing in large isk costing projects making isk disappear from the game is a good way to reduce 'inflation'. If CCP would release more rare bpo's then there's no way to "take isks out of game"
I'm sorry if i step on many toes here but CCP ain't doing bad at all.
LMAO.
1) You are another person who missed the whole point of this thread. We don't care about the prices. We are mad that the lottery was unfair. We did the same amount of work as you, but you got 3 BPOs and we got none.
2) Thank you for insulting us by saying that most people couldn't make proper use of a T2 BPO. Here's a hint: You don't have to do everything yourself. You can buy all the components and not have to do anything but build the item.
3) Hulk is the only ISK printer in the game? Ever hear of HACs? Over 200mil profit each!
4) When you said you invested your profit in a "large isk costing projects" did you mean that you bought something from another player or from NPCs? If you just spent your money buying stuff from other players than you did not take any ISK out of the economy. (I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.)
5) If CCP added more T2 BPOs through the lottery it would take ISK out of the game because more people would have to buy POSs to moon mine. If CCP added more T2 BPOs through a system like the one I proposed in my other post, than it would take even more ISK out of the game!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.23 02:57:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Eilie
If CCP added more T2 BPOs through the lottery it would take ISK out of the game because more people would have to buy POSs to moon mine. If CCP added more T2 BPOs through a system like the one I proposed in my other post, than it would take even more ISK out of the game!
The exact SAME thing would happend if blueprint copy time would be 10 times lower as manufacture time.
Selling 1 item at 200 mil *profit* per unit (250 mil per unit, 50 mil cost) or selling 10 BPCs at 20+ mil pure profit per unit (negligible costs, no headaches)... what would YOU do ?
Even if the "final" T2 manufacturer would sell at 60+ mil profit for himself instead of 200 mil profit, that's still half of today's prices... and the market can easily assimilate more than 10 times the number of ships manufactured nowadays.
The T2 owners would still profit about the same as they do now, would have a lot less actual work to do, and the price fights are now driven by moon materials (read: PvP) instead of sheer dumb luck.
__
Always question everything. Including yourself.
My skills (on BIG public site) |
Extreme
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 03:06:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Extreme
Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents.
I bet 90% of yours have all your R&D agents set to research Starship Engineering all at the same faction. Result: Very small chance.
Aside of this, a starship BPO T2 is actually only valuable in the right hands (read; right corporations)
It will involve alot of manpower by members to setup and maintain towers for moonharvesting materials -> producing simple reactions -> complex reactions -> intermediates -> T2 construction components -> high risk freighter trips from deepspace to empire -> producing T2 ships -> selling ships with maxed tradeskills -> buy fuels off market -> freighter these fuels back to deepspace to keep your pos's running.
... meanwhile you have to hold/defend your claimed deepspace region and clean the region from hostiles that are roaming around.
This will answer many questions why the most valuable T2 bpo's will end up at the larger (deepspace) corporations.
For a fact, a Claymore Commandship cost of production is around 80 Million isk and that ship does only sell for around 80M isk, ZERO profit there as you have to calculate all the taxes too. Field Command ships however generate a bit better isk.
The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now.
In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Investing in large isk costing projects making isk disappear from the game is a good way to reduce 'inflation'. If CCP would release more rare bpo's then there's no way to "take isks out of game"
I'm sorry if i step on many toes here but CCP ain't doing bad at all.
LMAO.
1) You are another person who missed the whole point of this thread. We don't care about the prices. We are mad that the lottery was unfair. We did the same amount of work as you, but you got 3 BPOs and we got none.
2) Thank you for insulting us by saying that most people couldn't make proper use of a T2 BPO. Here's a hint: You don't have to do everything yourself. You can buy all the components and not have to do anything but build the item.
3) Hulk is the only ISK printer in the game? Ever hear of HACs? Over 200mil profit each!
4) When you said you invested your profit in a "large isk costing projects" did you mean that you bought something from another player or from NPCs? If you just spent your money buying stuff from other players than you did not take any ISK out of the economy. (I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.)
5) If CCP added more T2 BPOs through the lottery it would take ISK out of the game because more people would have to buy POSs to moon mine. If CCP added more T2 BPOs through a system like the one I proposed in my other post, than it would take even more ISK out of the game!
1. Lotteries are never fair
2. Alot of these components come from overhead production of deepspace corporations.
3. A Hulk needs way less skills in order to use it than to be able to fly a HAC. A Hulk is the only ship that really can make some good money for a single player. So the market demand is high and currently increasing, marketprices go over 500M now.
4. Large isk costing projects were the deployment of 3 outposts, buying and deploying a large number of POS's to claim sovreignty, burning fuels to keep the POS's running.
Buying all capital construction bpo's from NPC (multiple sets), buying all carrier and dreadnought bpo's, buying Mothership BPO's.
5. I disagree as pure moonharvesting POS's will generate more isks than the costs of burning fuels as there's no need to claim sovreignty and to keep your space clean of hostiles. ('stealth' POS's)
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.23 03:25:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Extreme
1. Lotteries are never fair
2. Alot of these components come from overhead production of deepspace corporations.
3. A Hulk needs way less skills in order to use it than to be able to fly a HAC. A Hulk is the only ship that really can make some good money for a single player. So the market demand is high and currently increasing, marketprices go over 500M now.
4. Large isk costing projects were the deployment of 3 outposts, buying and deploying a large number of POS's to claim sovreignty, burning fuels to keep the POS's running.
Buying all capital construction bpo's from NPC (multiple sets), buying all carrier and dreadnought bpo's, buying Mothership BPO's.
5. I disagree as pure moonharvesting POS's will generate more isks than the costs of burning fuels as there's no need to claim sovreignty and to keep your space clean of hostiles. ('stealth' POS's)
1) Yes, lotteries arn't fair. That is why it shouldn't have been a lottery.
The rest doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, but I'll answer them anyway...
2) Looking at the market in Jita right now, I could easily buy all the items to build a HAC, a Hulk, or any other T2 item. I don't need my own moon mining POS.
3) Many many people can use HACs these days... and there are many other BPOs that make alot of profit.
4) Well that's nice. You used your Hulk profits to remove money from the economy. If someone else had the same money it would eventually be removed anyway so it doesn't really matter.
5) A POS will NEVER generate any ISK into the economy. Only remove ISK from fuel. A POS can make you money, but you get that money from other players, not from NPCs.
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Extreme
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 03:35:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Extreme on 23/10/2006 03:36:40
Originally by: Eilie
4) ...(I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.)
Not quite true;
1. T1 one ships you'll lose the insurance fee of the platinum insurance pay out (to NPC)
2. T2 ships makes no sense at all to insure these as the platinum pay out is not covering the market valued costs obtaining a new T2 ship. When your ship gets popped you actually losing alot of money, not to mention your destroyed named and T2 gear and thus reducing isk in game (non NPC)
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.23 03:52:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Extreme
Originally by: Eilie
4) ...(I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.)
Not quite true;
1. T1 one ships you'll lose the insurance fee of the platinum insurance pay out (to NPC)
2. T2 ships makes no sense at all to insure these as the platinum pay out is not covering the market valued costs obtaining a new T2 ship. When your ship gets popped you actually losing alot of money, not to mention your destroyed named and T2 gear and thus reducing isk in game (non NPC)
/sigh... not this again...
When your ship is destroyed, money is added to the game, not removed. This is true whether you have insurance or not, and whether you are using T1, T2, named, or faction mods. You may lose alot of ISK, but money is added into the game from insurance.
This is really off topic now... let's try to stay on topic...
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Extreme
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 03:58:00 -
[133]
Actually i'm done with the topic 
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:09:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Extreme
1. Lotteries are never fair
In what sense are free lotteries never fair?
Someone who gets a research agent has to pay nothing to continue to acquire RP. He has a small initial startup cost in time and effort and thats it.
If the system works as purported everyone has a chance to win based on the number of RP they have. The semi-unique valuable assets are handed to those who have a very minimal ability to control their probability of receipt.
While some people seem to think that this is what makes the lottery unfair, it is precisely what makes the lottery fair.
No one can improve their odds of receiving a BPO enough to ensure receipt. This means that the most valuable assets in game are not just handed to the power gamers. Instead, joe schmo noob has a comparable chance of receiving a BPO as Mr. Awesome T2 producer with 500billion isk. If joe schmo wants to produce with it he can, or he can exact a large amount of isk out of whoever is willing to pay.
This is the essence of fairness. Those with more time to devote to EVE can only minimally improve their odds of getting a BPO. Therefore these people have to pay quite a bit in order to acquire the BPOs; Quid pro quo.
What would be more fair?
People are conflating different issues. T2 being expensive does not have to do with how fair the lottery is or is not. The BPO is potentially as valuable in the hands of the person who originally owned it as it is in the hands of the person who paid an exhorbitant amount for it.
What you are really arguing about is the number of BPOs seeded, not the method of their delivery.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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SamtheDog
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:11:00 -
[135]
This type of posting just irks me in the sense that some people have such a simplistic style of thinking that it makes me cringe.
I've got quite a few tech2 bpo's (ships/guns/drones/launchers) & NEVER won any of them. Alot of people cry about the availability of tech2 bpo's..like they expect them to drop in their lap cause they want them & cry about it when they can't get stuff they want super cheap.
Need isk? Then I suggest you grind it for awhile & do it old school...go mine..do missions..get lucky but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T **** YOUR ISK AWAY PUTTING IT ALL IN EXPENSIVE SHIPS THAT GET GANKED. It happens so often that people never acknowledge that they did a Joe.
So let's imagine that tech2 bpo's are now more available..say CCP gets a brain fart & cowers to the demands of the noob who truly does not understand the true complexity this gmae beyond "bpo's". So you get your shiney new bpo..but suddnelty realize that the COMPONENTS are not there. The people who moon mine & do reactions to make your ships are suddenly out of stock. Component prices rise 5X & your stuck again spending 70M to make a hac now becuase all the components are now out of stock. So they're now much more epxenisve to make & less profit for you (which I highly doubt since most noobs never even considred the skills required to make t2 stuff & would complain it's too hard & beg CCP to drop the skills needed to t1 levels. BUT...now omg....the alliances in 0.0 space won't sell their rare elements for 9k/unit anymore..,htye want 50k! IT'S NOT FAIR!! I have the right to build my t2 ships super cheap cause I'm a noob & too lazy to train up the stuff or evenbuy a char by WORKING in the game. 
The sad reality for you is if you wnt it....then you'll have to use your brain to make the isk to buy your stuff. Every t2 bpo has it's price. Now if you're not able ot realize the potential in eve to make isk w/o mindless mining..then you probably shouldn't be able ot have one.
For the rest of us who made 50bn WITHOUT leaving stn or building....we're more than happy watching the lazy & clueless noobs whine while CCP looks at you guys shaking their heads since they fully understand your point of view comes from ignorance. T2 if fine....
Cheers!
Sam
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:23:00 -
[136]
Originally by: SamtheDog
So you get your shiney new bpo..but suddnelty realize that the COMPONENTS are not there. The people who moon mine & do reactions to make your ships are suddenly out of stock. Component prices rise 5X & your stuck again spending 70M to make a hac now becuase all the components are now out of stock. So they're now much more epxenisve to make & less profit for you (which I highly doubt since most noobs never even considred the skills required to make t2 stuff & would complain it's too hard & beg CCP to drop the skills needed to t1 levels. BUT...now omg....the alliances in 0.0 space won't sell their rare elements for 9k/unit anymore..,htye want 50k!
And here I went assuming that's a GOOD thing.
No, I'm not an alt.
Neither a T2 BPO lottery winner.
Nor (currently) a mining POS owner.
And I still think THAT would be a VERY GOOD ideea.
Why ?
Simply because much more people would start moving their fraking behinds into lowsec/0.0 to MINE those damn moons already.
__
Always question everything. Including yourself.
My skills (on BIG public site) |
Extreme
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:25:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Extreme
1. Lotteries are never fair
In what sense are free lotteries never fair?
I was being ironic 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:32:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Extreme
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Extreme
1. Lotteries are never fair
In what sense are free lotteries never fair?
I was being ironic 
So, what, now you claim "free lotteries" ARE sometimes fair ?
Lotteries are NEVER fair, period.
Anything involving luck isn't "fair", ever.
__
Always question everything. Including yourself.
My skills (on BIG public site) |
Extreme
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 04:36:00 -
[139]
Lotteries are never fair unless you're a winner.
Thats the irony of it.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:03:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Extreme
Lotteries are never fair unless you're a winner.
Thats the irony of it.
That's not irony, that's relativity
__
Always question everything. Including yourself.
My skills (on BIG public site) |
Trem Sinval
Sinval Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:11:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Extreme
Lotteries are never fair unless you're a winner.
Of which you yourself have admitted. You do realize that, as a t2 BPO holder, your dissenting opinion is moot, right?
I hold no t2 BPO's, and I am acutely aware of just how F*(&@#ing complicated t2 production is. But the argument that releasing t2 BPO's would do nothing is entirely incorrect.
First, the number of people capable of actual t2 production is unknown (but we can presume that it's larger than the current stable of t2 BP holders). Releasing additional BPO's into the market also encourages people to learn these skills.
Second, the argument that supplies will dry up is incorrect. If the demand spikes, the supply market will experience a price increase, true enough, but production will also go up. If BPO's are seeded into the market, the opportunity cost for moonmining for profit goes way up, and subsequently, so will the supplies of material (this will have a cheapening effect on ship prices, as producers compete for business volume).
Third, the system for invention is at least as complicated as current t2 production, in skills and procedure, if not moreso. Invention is a good step, but doesn't go far enough to entice people into using it (one spends exorbinant amounts of ISK for the mere possibility of a BPC). Releasing BPO's, on the other hand, is a very large (and guaranteed) opportunity to either produce one's own supplies, or to make profits.
To put it succinctly:
1. People can fly t2 ships (demand in the market)
2. Current production capabilities are limited by supplies of BP's (low supplies)
3. Market situations result in large costs (which are not recouped in insurance, no matter how many times you're going to try to prove 2+2=5)
This situation results in a large profit capability for a small number of players.
Releasing BPO's into the market:
4. Increases demand for t2 production components, increasing profit for low/no-sec activities.
5. Increased component demand drives prices lower (by increased competition).
6. Production of t2 by many builders will result in lower prices.
OTOH, Invention:
1. Increases complexity of development.
2. Does not sufficiently engender lower production costs.
3. Contains too many uncertainties to become a regular system for decreasing price/increasing access to t2 items.
It would seem as though the only ones arguing for the continued system of lottery are those who already (and by their own admission) have an ISK-making t2 BPO.
- Trem
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babo
Gallente
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:14:00 -
[142]
On this topic, I know a little as I did moon mining for a while and reactions etc..
There is a LOT of work that goes into bringing together the various parts of T2 ships and at every stage people want to make money.
Moon miners have to sit around and figure out if buying ice products to fuel the pos is the best way and if not they have to spend a ton of time ICE mining. Those things are not gold and take a lot to keep going. Allowing POS to be erected in empire with the charters was supposed to help the t2 production so that carebears could get in on the action, but the added expense of the charters makes that also cost much more and I am not sure how much this has helped.
and.. on that topic.. frankly, POS's should have "POS fuel" which is made from the various ice components instead of the way it is done now with various items you stock the POS with.. It is ridiculous..
I finally got fed up with spending all my time hauling around various fuels and trying to get my minerals to market and sold my whole setup of several POS's I have respect for the guys who can deal with that.. I think it is perhaps one of the parts of the game that is the worst to attempt to run solo.
Anyway..
I have 5 research agents all spread out, no BPO drops, I would love one, but I do realize that it is a lottery system.
Quit complaining about the system, it does work. The only part that I see being an issue is that pretty standard things are happening that are part of capitalism, the big guys make money if they can corner a market and have a monopoly on a certain product so they buy up all the stray BPO's around from new guys who sell BPO's instead of training skills and using it. The random BPO drops can help some on making it a little harder to do that.
Usually around every patch CCP seems to do good quantities of BPO drops, so cross your fingers we have some patches coming up :)
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:34:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Baun on 23/10/2006 05:42:56
Originally by: Akita T
So, what, now you claim "free lotteries" ARE sometimes fair ?
Lotteries are NEVER fair, period.
Anything involving luck isn't "fair", ever.
That makes absolutely no sense.
If everyone has essentialy the same chance to get a given reward, how is it not fair?
No one is being rewarded for anything that they can or cannot control, no one is being penalized for anything they can or cannot control. More to the point, no one is being rewarded more than they should be for playing the game more than someone else.
It would be quite a bit more unfair if it were NOT based on luck. In that case everyone would have a legitimate reason to ***** and whine about how agent *****s were being unjustly compensated for grinding all day long by CCP, and how this was really just a way to encourage people to play more and get more accounts.
As it stands now there is only a slight reward for establishing many high lvl research agents. You increase your chances to win but you are assured of nothing.
I have a character with lvl5 science skills and 6 research agents. I don't feel like I am being cheated because I can't assure myself of a BPO. If the system is not bugged and is actually working like a lottery (some reason to believe it didn't always) then I have no problem with it, CCP is not biasing it towards anyone.
I will try to state this as simply as possible; If CCP's goal is in implimenting the lottery system was to distribute the T2 BPOs without creating further rewards for heightened gameplay while providing an avenue for those interested to increase their chances, then they have succeeded.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Reiisha
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:39:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52
Originally by: infraX
 The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same.
The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not.
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:39:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Trem Sinval
Third, the system for invention is at least as complicated as current t2 production, in skills and procedure, if not moreso. Invention is a good step, but doesn't go far enough to entice people into using it (one spends exorbinant amounts of ISK for the mere possibility of a BPC). Releasing BPO's, on the other hand, is a very large (and guaranteed) opportunity to either produce one's own supplies, or to make profits.
To state this again, the question of how many BPOs should be seeded has abolustely nothing to do with the lottery.
It makes alot of sense for CCP to look at the stability of the T2 market as it faces increasing demand and seed more BPOs in order to mitigate price increases. It seems that they are at least going to see how much invention impacts the situation before they think about doing this.
To put it succinctly, people should not conflate the question of supply with the question of BPO allocation.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:45:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Reiisha
Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52
Originally by: infraX
The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same.
The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not.
Quite.
Look at a "common basket of goods" ;P to establish inflation.
Things like minerals and BSs etc show that there is no inflation. BS prices are highly constant and it might even be the case that macro miners are deflating the value of minerals.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:49:00 -
[147]
what they need to do is simply make it so that anyone who wants to get one can get one, caveat all of them are like 20 run limited bpo and people can constantly get as many as they want, then get rid of all the unlimited runs. This way active producers can keep a supply going, and people will move to where the market prices are highest to keep the prices level. Adding a few more wont change anything, the problem is the fact the system right now has limited bpos meaning either you got lucky and got one or you never getting one IE monopoly time.
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:55:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
what they need to do is simply make it so that anyone who wants to get one can get one, caveat all of them are like 20 run limited bpo and people can constantly get as many as they want, then get rid of all the unlimited runs. This way active producers can keep a supply going, and people will move to where the market prices are highest to keep the prices level. Adding a few more wont change anything, the problem is the fact the system right now has limited bpos meaning either you got lucky and got one or you never getting one IE monopoly time.
Limited supply does not create a monopoly.
If someone either owned all the BPOs or set the prices on them for a specific item, then all that would happen is that the prices would go up and volume would go down. Under some circumstances its possible to make more money this way, but given that there are very few essential T2 items its is doubtful that this would be profitable. Of course I am sure someone can make a compelling analogy to the international diamond cartel that explains how you can make alot of money by branding non-essential items and jacking the price up by limiting supply.
High prices exist because of static supply and high demand. The way to regulate prices is to seed more BPOs. You can't change the goalposts now and try to give free access to T2 production. You probably can, however, seed more BPOs in order to regulate supply against ever increasing demand. This wouldn't effect current BPO values, it would just prevent them from increasing except during the times between seedings.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.23 05:57:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Reiisha
Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52
Originally by: infraX
The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same.
The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not.
So, are you arguing there ISN'T much more ISK in the game "per capita" as there was, say 1 year ago ? That's inflation, by definition itself.
Having people that KEEP buying "monopolistic-priced" products to a point where the monopol-holders CAN NOT EVEN MATCH the demand (in spite of insane prices) only due to their own production-line limitations, that's another SIGN of inflation.
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Right now, insurance payouts create money. Insurance premiums destroy money. Overall, more money gets created than destroyed REGARDLESS of insured ship (I sincerely doubt less than 30% of 100%-level insured ships blow up, and even uninsured ships still give you a 40% "generation"). All in all, insurance GENERATES much more ISK as it destroys.
Mission rewards and bounties of any type create ISK.
NPC goods freighter trading ALSO creates ISK in the end.
The only (significant) ISK "sinks" are T1 BPO, POS structures, POS-related "consumables" and skillbook purchases from NPCs. Oh, and any market trade in NPC stations, we can't forget that one... would lose seing ALL items on the market rather than in escrow TBH... escrow has failed miserably.
Insurance creates more as it destroys, agent offers sometimes destroy ISK, but not nearly enough.
The amount of ISK *ENTERING* the game is in no way balanced with AMOUNT OF NEW PLAYERS.
It doesn't help AT ALL that people that quit playing usually GIVE their ISK away to friends or their corps.
So yeah, inflation (as in ISK/capita ratio) is on the loose, and T2/officer/faction prices are the best INDICATOR of just how rampant the inflation really IS.
Mining, manufacturing and everything else just SHIFTS ISK around between players, by the way, in case you failed to realise that.
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Always question everything. Including yourself.
My skills (on BIG public site) |
zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.23 06:05:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Akita T
So, are you arguing there ISN'T much more ISK in the game "per capita" as there was, say 1 year ago ? That's inflation, by definition itself.
No, thats an increase in the money supply. Inflation is, and ONLY is, an increase in prices across a well-constructed and representative price index.
Quote:
Having people that KEEP buying "monopolistic-priced" products to a point where the monopol-holders CAN NOT EVEN MATCH the demand (in spite of insane prices) only due to their own production-line limitations, that's another SIGN of inflation.
What, exactly, do you mean by match the demand? It is economically impossible for there to be no point of equilibrium unless the supply and demand lines are parallel, which is only really economically feasible with both being perfectly inelastic. Supply is perfectly inelastic here, but demand sure as hell isn't.
Quote:
Right now, insurance payouts create money. Insurance premiums destroy money. Overall, more money gets created than destroyed REGARDLESS of insured ship (I sincerely doubt less than 30% of 100%-level insured ships blow up, and even uninsured ships still give you a 40% "generation"). All in all, insurance GENERATES much more ISK as it destroys.
Yes.
Quote:
Mission rewards and bounties of any type create ISK.
NPC goods freighter trading ALSO creates ISK in the end.
Yes, and yes, although I doubt NPC goods trading creates much at all.
Quote:
The only (significant) ISK "sinks" are T1 BPO, POS structures, POS-related "consumables" and skillbook purchases from NPCs. Oh, and any market trade in NPC stations, we can't forget that one... would lose seing ALL items on the market rather than in escrow TBH... escrow has failed miserably.[/b]
Insurance creates more as it destroys, agent offers sometimes destroy ISK, but not nearly enough.
How do you know this? I'm not even sure I can take your word that isk per capita has increased, without figures.
Quote:
The amount of ISK *ENTERING* the game is in no way balanced with AMOUNT OF NEW PLAYERS.
Who gave you the right/qualification to define where the balance is? Balance is a matter of perspective and opinion.
Quote:
So yeah, inflation (as in ISK/capita ratio) is on the loose, and T2/officer/faction prices are the best INDICATOR of just how rampant the inflation really IS.
As pointed out, economically inflation has nothing to do with isk/capita except if you're a monetarist, in which case it is the cause of inflation, but it isn't actually inflation. The best indicator of rampant inflation can and will only ever be a well constructed, broad, weighted and representative goods basket, which is not "T2/officer/faction" items.
My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance |
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