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75 bill for a BPO, Wake up CCP?

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bundy bear	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:22:00 - [1] One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market.
Padack Dark Star Combine Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:23:00 - [2] And how is that going to fix the market sir?
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:27:00 - [3] what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:32:00 - [4] Because its making EVE all about luck. Getting tech II BPO's is a lottery not a profession. If there were 3 times as many BPO's Then the ships might sell for a reasonable price so more people can fly them.
Father Weebles Panzershrek Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:33:00 - [5] because ccp wants everybody to move to 00 where alliances have lots of the t2 bpos. if ccp really wanted to change tech2 they wouldve done it a long time ago... "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
themule Caldari Insane Decision	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Father Weebles because ccp wants everybody to move to 00 where alliances have lots of the t2 bpos. if ccp really wanted to change tech2 they wouldve done it a long time ago... 1) They are changing T2, check invention. 2) If everyone moved to 0.0 we whould have the same supply demand problem.
Afonso Henriques Minmatar Low Grade Ore The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:39:00 - [7] I really doubt invention is going to do uch sadly.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:40:00 - [8] So then 3 times as many people get lucky and can make a load (albeit not so much individually) of isk for doing nothing? Kinda hypocritical don't u think?
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:44:00 - [9] The reason you wouldn't make those BPO's available via normal 'skills' (farm that much ore, train that many skills, do that many missions) is that the market would be flooded eventually by too many of them. Market dynamics between players would become completely useless since everyone can build it themselves - kinda what happens in other games. To keep the economy healthy the BPO's need to be regulated and limited, as strange as this may sound. But remember, this is a game, not the real world, so while the end result will be the same, the way it's achieved is a bit different. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:44:00 - [10] Originally by: bundy bear One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market. Releasing more BPOs with the same retarded system isn't the answer. The real answer (which will get me flamed by every T2 BPO owner) is really simple: Step 1) Change all current T2 BPOs to BPCs. Step 2) Either (a) Have T2 items only be created through the new invention system or (b) intruduce a fair way in which all players can get T2 BPOs. An example of a fair method would be having research agents RP work the same way as a normal agents LP. Than you could get an offer for a HAC BPO for something like 100k RP (which is about a years worth) and 1 billion ISK.

zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:48:00 - [11] Originally by: bundy bear Because its making EVE all about luck. Getting tech II BPO's is a lottery not a profession. If there were 3 times as many BPO's Then the ships might sell for a reasonable price so more people can fly them. all of moneymaking is based on luck, to a large extent, even. its luck when you get a module worth 50mil off of a rat and someone else gets 100 antimatter s ammo off of it. the only difference is the return and the number of winners, which scale. My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Ariel Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 22/10/2006 02:58:35 Originally by: Eilie Releasing more BPOs with the same retarded system isn't the answer. The real answer (which will get me flamed by every T2 BPO owner) is really simple: Step 1) Change all current T2 BPOs to BPCs. Step 2) Either (a) Have T2 items only be created through the new invention system or (b) intruduce a fair way in which all players can get T2 BPOs. An example of a fair method would be having research agents RP work the same way as a normal agents LP. Than you could get an offer for a HAC BPO for something like 100k RP (which is about a years worth) and 1 billion ISK. Sounds like the best solution to me, and people with T2 BPOs have probably printed off enough ISK to buy a few decades worth of GTCs and you'd only be ticking off a few players (as there are so few copies of T2 BPOs) who don't even pay to play (as their BPOs buy all the GTCs they want).
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.22 03:01:00 - [13] Ehh, the game has a component of luck, yes. Saying "the game is all about luck" is wrong. Some days you hit the jackpot, that's GOOD. Now kindly, go back to your hole. :P [ore mongers, recruiting]
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.10.22 03:12:00 - [14] Originally by: bundy bear rediculous. Ridiculous* Also posting in a T2 thread. Flooding the market with T2 BPOS is not a good idea at all either. Oh well, all we can do is wait for invention and T2 BPO seeds in the lottery.
EchoTheDolphin	Posted - 2006.10.22 03:20:00 - [15] Originally by: bundy bear One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market. Everyone should get one, it would work out perfectly, just like the real life form of communism.
Torquemanda Corteaz Gallente Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 03:33:00 - [16] eve life just like the real thing isnt fair, get used to it
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 04:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Gamer4liff Flooding the market with T2 BPOS is not a good idea at all either. From which point of view? From mine, it's a great idea. T2 ship and mod inflation is just ridiculous. More bpos = supply increasing with same demand = lower prices overall. Good thing from a buyer's point of view. Market will still regulate itself --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.22 04:10:00 - [18] Econ 101. People have unlimited wants in a world of limited resources. MMOs currently have the problem in that their worlds have unlimited resources. This leads to mudflation and oversaturates the market. It makes player professions unprofitable and destroys the game's economy. Be limiting the number of T2 BPOs in circulation, CCP guarantees that T2 ships will always be expensive items, even after years of mudflation.
Agent Kenshin Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.22 04:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Originally by: Gamer4liff Flooding the market with T2 BPOS is not a good idea at all either. From which point of view? From mine, it's a great idea. T2 ship and mod inflation is just ridiculous. More bpos = supply increasing with same demand = lower prices overall. Good thing from a buyer's point of view. Market will still regulate itself The price isnt going to go down. All that does is change where the most profit is being made. It transfers the money from the BPO owners to those who moon mine and make the materials needed for t2 production. The materials to make t2 bpos are limited by the current game mechanics and there for the t2 bpos are also limited. ----- Station Invunerablity POS Module
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.10.22 04:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Taedrin Econ 101. People have unlimited wants in a world of limited resources. MMOs currently have the problem in that their worlds have unlimited resources. This leads to mudflation and oversaturates the market. It makes player professions unprofitable and destroys the game's economy. Be limiting the number of T2 BPOs in circulation, CCP guarantees that T2 ships will always be expensive items, even after years of mudflation. This is correct and Invention will put in place mechanics to allow CCP to tweak the price levels of T2 products as they see fit. If they feel the price of an item is too high, they can and will seed more tools for invention of that item until the price drops to a 'suitable' level. But rest assured that some items will always remain expensive, while others will fluctuate according to some unseen will. Why would CCP regulate supply in order to cause regular price fluctuations? Simply because it keeps the economic scene dynamic and, therefore, interesting for those who care to predict fluctuations of the market and invest in them. This is yet another mechanism by which non-BPO owners can make fortunes, and it is by design. "If you kill all the wolves, you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies. And by bunnies I mean stupid people." Ask Ninja

Thrawnfl	Posted - 2006.10.22 04:38:00 - [21] Actually I would like to note that most if not all corps have their T2 BPO's in Empire because they are so valuable. You Wont see a 0.0 Corp move a T2 BPO to 0.0 because there might be a chance of them loosing it. If anyone finds out there's a T2 BPO somewhere in 0.0 your gonna have Corps or Alliances hunting that corp down. In Empire BPO's are safe for the most part.
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2006.10.22 05:28:00 - [22] The group of people that offered those 75 have been working non-stop for over 2 years. Why are they not worth it in the least? When you had breakfast, they were hauling. When you had dinner, they were hauling. When you went to bed, they were running 50-page long excel sheets to see what to haul tommorow. I am seriously bothered when dedicated groups of people like the ones participating in the referenced auction are pointed out as a problem. They are not the problem, they are the example that many people cannot live up to. Dedication, sacrifice that quite oftenly goes beyond the scope of "a game". Yes that means you can't kill them ("how can you kill that which has no life?" ) People only get the right to complain about these kinds of economical powers only after they put in at least half of the effort they did. Once you do that you will come to appreciate what some people have achieved. Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2006.10.22 05:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Thrawnfl Actually I would like to note that most if not all corps have their T2 BPO's in Empire because they are so valuable. You Wont see a 0.0 Corp move a T2 BPO to 0.0 because there might be a chance of them loosing it. If anyone finds out there's a T2 BPO somewhere in 0.0 your gonna have Corps or Alliances hunting that corp down. In Empire BPO's are safe for the most part. If they gave the amarrian outposts a 0.5 buildtime multiplier, you'd see people flooding their prints out of the empire and into 0.0 in no-time. At the moment, empire-sustained pos' can hit the current 0.75 buildtime with only a fraction of the cost, risk and trouble that an amarrian prodstation requires. Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.22 05:38:00 - [24] WOW, this makes it thread #23465723652356235th about the T2 lottery, congratulations you win a T2 Clue. I agree with Feta on most points (if not all) _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Karazaan Rakyra	Posted - 2006.10.22 05:51:00 - [25] Originally by: bundy bear One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market. I won't go into the very boring Lottery subject, since some peoples are really unable to understand or even try and read some existing threads. But you bring an interesting subject, the price of a single item. We have a free market in Eve. A player driven one. Many items are not provided by NPC anymore, so it's the players that set the price and if it's too high and others see an opportunity, they will get the stuff themselves also (agent and complex stuff come to mind). Their is no max price because it would create problems with the market. So what would prevent me to put the last snowball (item seeded one time only) in the universe up for sale at 100 bil on the market? You will accuse me of getting it for free? It's not my problem if everyone else already fired theirs. Really there is only one solution, don't buy it if it's not fitting with you. If it's stupidely priced, just let the stupids buy it. Why would you decide what would be my max price for my snowballs? To have easy access to them? Unlimited cheap supply? Your head might have an hard time with tech 3!
Copine Callmeknau The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 05:52:00 - [26] Imagine what the price would be for a decent BPO, like an Absolution or a Sleipnir oO -- Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you where tuxford.
Strikeclone Caldari Starscreamers	Posted - 2006.10.22 06:30:00 - [27] One person winning half a dozen tech2 BPOs with a few months of getting a reserch agent isnt fair or like real life. That same person then making an absolute killing with those 6 BPOs and eventually buying twenty more tech2 BPOs including just about all the HACs is just a ridiculous outcome from a ridiculous manufacturing system. Want a good R&D and manufacturing system, check out Auto Assault's system. Its about the best I have seen in any mmorpg. There you have to earn you skills, and your abilities to make nice items. I think many will agree Eve is supposed to be about effort and play time, not random lotto roll overs. "Peace through the application of fingers in ears and humming real loud" Starscreamers HQ
thetwilitehour Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 06:49:00 - [28] Originally by: bundy bear One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market. In part I think the OP is right. The system as it was orginally implemented is severely flawed, ridiculous even. Would releasing more BPOS fix the problem? Sadly not necessarily. Essentially the problem with the T2 system is twofold, first its a system of artifical scarcity, where the means to produce are simply not available to everyone who wants to compete in the market, and second the system was designed with a much smaller playerbase in mind. Assuming orginaly there was 1 BPO for say every 1,000 players with only 1/4 of those players being of the appropriate race to to use said ship/component might help to understand why these flaws werent immediately apparent. However simply releasing new bpos is dangerous because players and corps have made investments into the t2 bpo market based on the assumption the inherent fact of scarce t2 bpos will not significantly change. The theoretical fix is limited run BPCs becoming available to players via invention. The best guess is this will lower the price of items with a large mark up (such as Hacs) as players produce their own and enterprising souls try to compete in the market. It will also theoretically drive up the prices of t2 bpo manufacturing. In general this should be a good fix, as bpo holders can still make a decent profit off their investment, but having certain t2 bpos will no longer essentially be a license to print isk. Please read stickied threads and search, stop posting this so someone has to respond each time.
Cheese999	Posted - 2006.10.22 06:53:00 - [29] An idea. Make ALL T2 BPOs into BPCs. The lottery continues as before, except pays out BPCs instead of BPOs. Result: Cartels will have a hard time exsisting as they will have to buy out the winners of the lottery. Which would lead to a rise in the price of the BPCs, eventually driving cartels out of buisness (hopefully). As there could be no form of organised price fixing (randomised distribution FTW) competition would develop, droping T2 prices. Any problems?
Hesed Hamartia.	Posted - 2006.10.22 07:23:00 - [30] Can we just be honest here for a sec? T2 itself is damaging to the game and to its popularity. Take any of the following examples: -ships for tackling in general -t2 ammo range -damage stacking -fittings complaints -lack of people who consider themselves competent at pvp If we just had nothing but t1, no insurance, all the roles offered by t2 spec ships, slower warp drive activation, and good balance between the classes, this would be a more functional and popular game. There are lots of other solutions, but if they rely on grinding, they are automatically wrong. Invention could be tied in with POS somehow. Like maybe utilize a POS module that runs on Extremely large quantities of atmospheric gases as one ingredient.

LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 07:27:00 - [31] I say throw the RP system out the window. CCP should randomly (RANDOMLY) disperse the T2 BPOs - then people like me would have at the very least a chance, therefore, I would not whine.
xStealthx	Posted - 2006.10.22 08:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Weirda the word "mudflation" make Weirda want to punch someone in the neck. seriously. roflcopter
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.22 09:01:00 - [33] Originally by: LaCoHa I say throw the RP system out the window. CCP should randomly (RANDOMLY) disperse the T2 BPOs - then people like me would have at the very least a chance, therefore, I would not whine. You already have a chance (or, at least, you will if they release more T2 BPOs). All you need to do is spend a couple days training, then find a research agent. I'd had a research agent for only three months when I got lucky in the lottery. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.22 09:22:00 - [34] /emote *****s the "be productive dont just haul crap and cost money" whip at his alt. :)
Earthan Gallente GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.10.22 09:41:00 - [35] Edited by: Earthan on 22/10/2006 09:46:19 Edited by: Earthan on 22/10/2006 09:42:06 I agree t2 bpc/bpo have to be regulated and seeded carefully, but i think maybe abit more of them woudl be good with less benefit going to one pocket. What about seeding 10 bpc of a hac with 100 runs each each month or somethign liek this? What i mean here is one that gets lucky gets lucky only for smaller period of time, and more poeple can get their chance( currently as i see it a person gets a t2 bpo and is set for his Eve life with isk.this doesnt sound remotely right).also less chance for mnopolies - A knight in space,war veteran,Grey Council military officer. Grey Council webpage
Labratory Rat	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:09:00 - [36] I used to think the t2 lottery was disgusting. Then I won a couple bpo's and now I don't care.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:17:00 - [37] Originally by: Labratory Rat I used to think the t2 lottery was disgusting. Then I won a couple bpo's and now I don't care. Anyway, what shocks me more than CCP refusing to seed more BPOs of the existing ships is that they are going to continue seeing BPOs through the same broken lottery system. If ALL of T2 was performed through invention then the game would be much better for it. Turn all exisiting T2 BPOs into very high-run BPCs and force everyone to go through the same system to get their T2 stuff. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:22:00 - [38] Not all T2 BPOs make ISKs and stop complaining so much. I do prefer CCP not seed any more T2 BPOs but limited T2 BPCs from player side. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Pax Caldaria.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:26:00 - [39] I agree with Jenny - leave the existing BPOs as BPOs. New BPOs or, even better, BPCs for the same items are fine, however. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Labratory Rat	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:27:00 - [40] I don't agree with the whining of the OP, but I'd like you know which BPO was sold for 75 bil. That way when invention arrives we can all concentrate on producing this item just to annoy whoever spent 75bil on a BPO before a large feature is added to the game to reduce the dependence on tech2 BPO's.

Caletha	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:35:00 - [41] The problem I see with the T2 BPO market is that the person that gets the BPO gets so much money from 1 item that he never has to make isk again unless he buys his own private mothership or titan. Instead of BPO's they should have seeded 1000-run BPC's, this way no single person would ever get EvE switched to easy mode. Because lets face it, the risk in Eve's PvP system is simple, its the risk of losing your ship, the isk related to it. T2 BPO owners dont have that risk because they have so much money its ridiculous. Then to add injury to insult, these same T2 BPO owners are the ones buying MORE T2 BPO's which allows them to make even MORE money. Fair? Probably not, it doesnt have to be fair but it has to put into perspective. Take a vagabond for example, 280m-300m thats what, a 230m markup per vaga? Which takes (with no build skills on a not-researched bpo) 1d 20h to build, which can probably be brought to 1d (even less?) with researching / better build skills. Thats a nice 1.6b isk per week. Or 83.7b a year. Replace vagabond with any of the other popular HAC's (cerb, etc) and you have the same thing.
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:37:00 - [42] I think that the mindset: "everyone should fly and fit TII" is redicolous... TII should not be something everyone got access to. I got no probs with the TII prices and tbh they could up em to 50 mill per gun for what I care. And no I dont own a BPO I simply would use TI stuff instead. Allso the game needs all types of ppl. we need pesons who is silly rich. Such ppl get bored with their isk so they fund the invation of a region or such things and it makes life fun for the lowlifers whos fighting.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon I think that the mindset: "everyone should fly and fit TII" is redicolous... TII should not be something everyone got access to. I got no probs with the TII prices and tbh they could up em to 50 mill per gun for what I care. And no I dont own a BPO I simply would use TI stuff instead. Allso the game needs all types of ppl. we need pesons who is silly rich. Such ppl get bored with their isk so they fund the invation of a region or such things and it makes life fun for the lowlifers whos fighting. The thing is, with T2 ammo T2 guns have become must. EANM IIs are far superior to other tanks, which is why the price of those have skyrockets. There are no T1 covert ops cloaking devices. If you don't care about T2, then posting about it. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:52:00 - [44] T1 is do-able in PvE. In PvP, however, it's another matter. You must have the T2 edge, otherwise you lose. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
The Enslaver Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:55:00 - [45] Heh. I've made a lot of money from T2, but I tell you - it is unbalanced, it is unfair, and it needs to be fixed. And that is coming from a T2 BPO holder... --------
Reite Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:57:00 - [46] I hope invention will half the price of HACs. The BPO owners would still have a 4x buildcost markup if HACs started selling for 100 mill. Imo that gives everyone a fair chance.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:58:00 - [47] Originally by: bundy bear Because its making EVE all about luck. Getting tech II BPO's is a lottery not a profession. If there were 3 times as many BPO's Then the ships might sell for a reasonable price so more people can fly them. I don't deny the existence of a lottery, but you still need to train skills, standing grind and perhaps even do the daily missions to have a good chance of winning. _______
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:01:00 - [48] I agree. Another stupid idea giving out these things to alts that do nothing but sit on the server accumulating RP. Effort should be required for such uber prizes. The Privateering Life
Iyanah Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:03:00 - [49] Originally by: bundy bear One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market. That won't fix things - at least not over night. the thing is, the market is player driven. the price is 75 billion, because there are those who are more than willing to pay that much for this particular BPO. sucks, sure, but releasing more BPOs will not immediately have this effect, and it won't drop the price by much tbh. especially not 3-4x the number currently in circulation. perhaps 10x or 20x would drop the price a bit, as the market would be flooded - supply would outstrip demand. ========================================== Iy
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:07:00 - [50] rabble rabble etc

Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:08:00 - [51] Edited by: Galk on 22/10/2006 11:13:58 Edited by: Galk on 22/10/2006 11:12:10 You're all missing it. The fact people have 70-80 billion to just throw at these items will mean the game will never be balanced, reguardless of how ccp change it. Aslong as ccp stick to the ideals of limited supply.. those with the money in the circle of high end t2 ship production.. will continue on in the manner in which this ones turned out. Same day different auction... till there all tied up in the circle of the high end's that bid on this one... or the closed alliances. More than funny if the later ever came about though... ccp would change it then for sure... ______
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:09:00 - [52] Get rid of T2 BPOs from R+D agents and have them give out BPCs. Once that BPC has expired, allow another to be released. This controls the ammount of items released into the market, while at the same time giving more researchers a chance of getting a bite of the apple.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Father Weebles because ccp wants everybody to move to 00 where alliances have lots of the t2 bpos. Just a hint: the reason there's so many T2 BPOs in alliance control is not because they are seeded to them. In many cases, the alliances are those buying the BPOs. - What am I listening to?
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Rick Dentill I don't deny the existence of a lottery, but you still need to train skills, standing grind and perhaps even do the daily missions to have a good chance of winning. Nonsense, all you have to do is buy more accounts and grind for a few days with each char ... Which is why CCP doesn't have much of an incentive to fix it.
Dux Dar	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:47:00 - [55] The new invention system will probaably not help on the situation alot. It will spread the income from T2 a bitt, but in the words of the devs, its gonna be bloody hard to get a T2 bpc, with realy crappy me. Our only hope is that over time they remove the me-penaly of invention (allow us to invent bpc's with 0me, or even positive me). That way, the lotto winners will at lease be forced to do a couple of levels of me reaserch to make more isk the someone working for a living (per run)
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.10.22 12:38:00 - [56] it's really unfair, unless it's mine ------ relaxed corp looking for members
Ogdru Jahad Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.22 12:47:00 - [57] I clearly remember being able to buy Zealots for 65m each with relative ease. then prices climbed to 85m and i was shocked. now they are almost 100m more. YAY! Screwed up inflation FTL! - Think your having a bad day? Imagine this, Your a siamese Twin joined at the hip,Your brother is *** & your not, His lover is comming around and you only have one bottom.
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.10.22 12:52:00 - [58] Put a time limit on the life of a BPO. Voila. Problem fixed.
Luigi Thirty Caldari Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:21:00 - [59] Don't you know? They're really CCCP, and this is their way of Communism! ---- This is a sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Shin Ra So then 3 times as many people get lucky and can make a load (albeit not so much individually) of isk for doing nothing? Kinda hypocritical don't u think? Don't forget you'll end up with groups that simply have all the BPOs they need due to having so damn many of those alts and then they simply buy the cheaper BPOs after ratting/mining/plexing/whatever for a week. T2's been out long enough, time to seed the BPOs to the market. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.

Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:46:00 - [61] I would like to point out that most of us who think the T2 lottery system is unfair and retarded AGREE that T2 shouldn't become really common and cheap. What we are complaining about is that most of the people who have T2 BPOs did nothing to deserve them! Just look at all the stories of people winning a BPO with 1 lvl1 agent whom they never did missions for while others had 5 lvl4 agents and did missions for them everyday and got nothing! That is completely **** up! Reward should come with hard work and/or risk! If you can't see that, than I don't know what to say to you... The system I proposed in my earlier post would keep T2 BPOs rare but give everyone an equal chance of getting one. After a few years they would become more common but by than we should have T3. Originally by:** Agent Kenshin The price isnt going to go down. All that does is change where the most profit is being made. It transfers the money from the BPO owners to those who moon mine and make the materials needed for t2 production. The materials to make t2 bpos are limited by the current game mechanics and there for the t2 bpos are also limited. What is wrong with the POS moon miners making more profit? They do really hard work hauling stuff to and from POSs all day and also have lots of risk and need to defend the POS from dread attacks! Whereas a T2 BPO owner just sits in Jita all day just clicking on "Buy", "Build", and "Sell" with no hard work or risk!
BloodFart	Posted - 2006.10.22 14:47:00 - [62] Invention is overhyped and most likely won't do jack to fix the T2 market. I promise you you'll still be getting raped by it loooong after Kali is releaed, no matter what anybody says. Because for some reason CCP loves having game breaking artificial monopolies and a mere 50 or so people making tens of billions of isk a week controlling the entire market. The T2 lottery was probably the dumbest thing ever added to this game (besides jump queues) and pretty much everyone agrees on that point, except the devs who are living in La-La Land.
Etruscus	Posted - 2006.10.22 14:56:00 - [63] Originally by: bundy bear One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market. Wouldn't this imply the markets are working and not broken? That is, that the "free-market" is willing to pay for any good depending on its supply and demand equillibrium at the moment it is sold? Or is it just that you are upset because you didn't get it and someone else did. Or is it just pure envy? Inquiring minds wants to know.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.10.22 14:57:00 - [64] Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 22/10/2006 14:57:59 Originally by: zeKzn what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? qft Fix the lottery, not the t2 market... ----------------------------------------
The Enslaver Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 14:58:00 - [65] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: zeKzn what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? qft There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. --------
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:15:00 - [66] Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: zeKzn what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? qft There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. QFT. It's funny (but also sad) that so many people don't understand what we're complaining about. Yes, the free market of EVE is working great. You expect something so rare and valuable to be sold for 75bil. The problem is that CCP shouldn't have just given away something like that to someone at random in the first place! So no, we are not jealous. We are mad because the person who got the BPO did NOTHING to deserve it! (Getting a research agent is so easy it's a joke.) You can say that life isn't fair. But this is a game where everyone starts out the same. You should get rare items with hard work, skill, and intelligence, not random luck!
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:22:00 - [67] You might want to ask why certain T2 corps are stock piling Vagabonds in Rens while trying to get other producers to raise their prices even further... _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Reite Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:26:00 - [68] Originally by: Old Geeza You might want to ask why certain T2 corps are stock piling Vagabonds in Rens while trying to get other producers to raise their prices even further... lol. I would think stockpiling HACs right now would be pretty stupid considering we have no idea how much invention will lower prices, but they WILL lover them. Unless CCP make it absolutly whortless that is.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:33:00 - [69] Originally by: Caletha Instead of BPO's they should have seeded 1000-run BPC's, this way no single person would ever get EvE switched to easy mode. Easy? Do you have any ideas how hard it is to make theses items? Have you seen the number of tech 2 components is needed to build a single HAC? If they were 1000-run bpc, people would keep them for themselves and the price on the market would sky-rocket forever and never go down. You will see that with invention, you will only put them on market if the price is really overpriced and you know you will make a nice markup. Else you will keep them. I doubt invention will increase the number of items on the market, except for a very small few.
Terminus adacai Caldari Mintaka Mining Inc	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:38:00 - [70] Those willing and able to earn research points are more than likely liable to make copies and produce. If you just handed over bpo's with a general lottery, wouldn't it suck if the winners were not active, noob, or weren't into production or industry?

Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:39:00 - [71] What is the problem here? I'd rather have it being down to luck than infernal grinding. It's a game, not work. Looking For Ventrilo Hosting
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:40:00 - [72] I wonder how many of those BPOs have been stockpiled by alliances who have 'not been exploiting the complex bug'. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:41:00 - [73] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Put a time limit on the life of a BPO. Voila. Problem fixed. How long do you think RL industry would last if their production could just stop at any time? What kind of relations with supplier would it have if it was always a short relation?
d026 Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:42:00 - [74] Quote: Easy? Do you have any ideas how hard it is to make theses items? Have you seen the number of tech 2 components is needed to build a single HAC? The discussion is not if its hard to produce a certain item (it cant be that hard i see lots of tII items on the market:) the problem is that you are given a TII BPO worth 75 BILIONS and the only thing you ever had to du if you were lucky is talking ONCE to your lvl 1 r&d agent. This just does not fall in line with how the complete rest of eve is working. Even running a lvl 1 kill mission involves more risk, you could be jumped on by a noobcorp suicideganker:)
Azrael Bierce Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:42:00 - [75] The problem with the current system is that through no amount of work can you acquire one. It is pure luck. And, on top of it all, all of the BPOs are out. A new player has NO access to that part of the game, and that is a horrible game mechanic. New BPOs need to be released regularly through the invention system. Not when an existing one is blown up, or the owner quits, but constantly. This way everyone has access to the game content.
Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:43:00 - [76] Originally by: The Enslaver There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. CCP are damned if they do, damned if they don't, because if some semi-proportional effort was involved in qualifying for a T2 BPO award, people would be screaming about the devs incentivising grind. As it is, at least a little bit of grinding towards L4 agents gives people a slightly better chance than someone who trains a couple of skills and instantly goes to an L2. This "random reward for no effort", distasteful though it may be, is characteristic of any lottery. Obviously it annoys everyone who has to work for a living IRL, that some slob on a sink estate wins millions on a lottery and instantly affords the same lifestyle with no investment in the education grind and minimal contribution to society. But that is an unavoidable property of all lottery systems. CCP decided on a lottery because they couldn't think of a better (fairer?) mechanism than a random number generator. They would gladly replace it with something more reasonable, provided it did not further polarise the community. And how is that to be achieved? Higher faction standing requirements? Big whine from the non-PVE crowd. Linked to Events? Big whine from the non-RP crowd. Reward for low sec risk? Big whine from the Empire huggers. Reward for epic challenges? Big whine from people in the wrong timezone to farm some complex, and newer players who can't field a squadron of faction BS. The problem is that the society of EVE is fractured into a patchwork of communities, existing in surprisingly different contexts, bounded by limitations which outsiders often fail to appreciate, and better men than I have tried and failed to come up with mechanisms that will give more than a fraction of the populace a fair shot. Until some mechanism is devised that really bridges the gap in play styles, I will settle for an accumulation of points and a random number generator. The winners will have done nothing to deserve the reward, but at least everyone will have had an opportunity to sign up for the dice roll.
Scoundrelus Unseen Jihad	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:44:00 - [77] The thing that annoys me is that getting a BPO is neither hard work nor skill, yet the people who get em end up getting really rich. It annoys me the same way as the lottery annoys me in real life. Here I am going through six years of schooling to get a good job and some shmuck who dropped out of school wins the lottery and is set for life. =============================================== We are Watching You.
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:45:00 - [78] There one other little detail people love to forget. The build time. The vagabond has a base build time of 1 day and 20 hours. With Industry 5, it goes down to 1 day and 11 hours, and with really good PE you might get it down as far as 20 hours. Still that's only about 8 ships per week per BPO. If you multiply that by 8 BPOs (the supposed number of each HAC BPO in the game) that's only 64 HACs being produced a week. And that's assuming VERY high PE on every BPO. Couple that with the insanely high demand, and you get the reason for the scarcity. Corps aren't hoarding the ships. They just can't produce them fast enough to come anywhere near meeting demand. ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:45:00 - [79] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia T2's been out long enough, time to seed the BPOs to the market. No they won't and the invention system kinda reinforce the idea that they will keep the tech 2+ players driven. Now I'm pretty sure they will release a lot of tech 2 bpo just before putting some tech 3 ones, all thru the lottery.
Victor Valka Caldari Terra Incognita	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:46:00 - [80] Originally by: Pick Me You will see that with invention, you will only put them on market if the price is really overpriced and you know you will make a nice markup. Else you will keep them. I doubt invention will increase the number of items on the market, except for a very small few. That kind of is the point of Inventions. Everyone willing to put effort into it will be able to build their own T2 ships and items. If Inventions does that, it will be a success as a gameplay mechanism. In my eyes, at least. It's not a get-rich-fast system so many seem to be expecting, nor will it bring down the prices on T2 items.

Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:50:00 - [81] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 22/10/2006 15:51:24 Originally by: Cmdr Sy CCP are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Good Post, I agree with you.
Shabesa	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:56:00 - [82] Funny how people play games to escape RL and then get stressed out by same issues. OMFG somebody got rich by pure luck! No f*ing way!! Not here too!!!
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 15:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Eilie I would like to point out that most of us who think the T2 lottery system is unfair and retarded AGREE that T2 shouldn't become really common and cheap. What we are complaining about is that most of the people who have T2 BPOs did nothing to deserve them! Just look at all the stories of people winning a BPO with 1 lvl1 agent whom they never did missions for while others had 5 lvl4 agents and did missions for them everyday and got nothing! Yes but that's what they are, story. It's easy to say on the forum that with 1 mil RP I did'nt get any RP offer and someone with a level 1 to say he's got 5 in a row. It's random, it does'nt take any effort to win thru a lottery, only to buy at least one ticket. The effort would be to train skills like Research Project Manager to 5 which some people did and get more tickets. If the only way to release bpo so that new player that choose the research path (as opposed to fighter/trader/manufacturer) can get something of value. And yes they have a lot more chance with higher skills in the science category (whatever alts posts are saying to that matter). It it was linked to something else, like work/grinding, alliance are the summit of grinding so they would get them all and the new players would leave the game as they would have no chance. It appear (from the OP which I don't trust to the auctions I don't trust any bit more) that some alliance might be willing to pay 75bil for one? So be it. More isk going from the stupids to the lucky. The work with tech 2 as always been the production of the item as getting the parts is not as easy as it seem as they are not seeded on the market themselves. Nothing force new players or peoples in small corp to sell their bpo to alliance even if they offer bils (I know, I was offered bils for mines). So instead of making a one shot 5 bil on a bpo, I made more than that just by making the items for many months. It sure give me something to do since I cannot really enter 0.0. Anything else than the lottery would automatically give the stuff to the alliances control only, like the boosters will clearly show up.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:00:00 - [84] Originally by: BloodFart Invention is overhyped and most likely won't do jack to fix the T2 market. I promise you you'll still be getting raped by it loooong after Kali is releaed, no matter what anybody says. Because for some reason CCP loves having game breaking artificial monopolies and a mere 50 or so people making tens of billions of isk a week controlling the entire market. It will fix the tech 2 problem that is stuff sold for 50 times to build cost as invention will be worth it for thoses items. Quote: The T2 lottery was probably the dumbest thing ever added to this game (besides jump queues) and pretty much everyone agrees on that point, except the devs who are living in La-La Land. Nope, it's clearly the opposite but after the 10'000 threads about it for the past 2 years, most can't be bothered to even read them anymore as it's always the same thing over and over. Hell even the devs replied 2 years ago. Now it would be a waste a time. Jump queues are there to help prevent node crash. How is that a dumb thing?
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:02:00 - [85] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: Roy Batty68 Put a time limit on the life of a BPO. Voila. Problem fixed. How long do you think RL industry would last if their production could just stop at any time? What kind of relations with supplier would it have if it was always a short relation? It's a game. Quit comparing to rl. Well then the only other option to the monopoly problem is to free up the distribution of BPOs. Either give them a time to live of a few months so they reenter the lotto system or make it so they're always a possible draw just on a rare rate. Give everyone a shot. Because "only the lucky few" system is obviously crap. Otherwise this topic wouldn't be on the boards every week.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:02:00 - [86] Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: zeKzn what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? qft There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. But would'nt you agree that thoses putting more effort (higher science skills and doing missions) would have better chance over a long time?
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:05:00 - [87] Originally by: Pick Me If the only way to release bpo so that new player that choose the research path (as opposed to fighter/trader/manufacturer) can get something of value. And yes they have a lot more chance with higher skills in the science category (whatever alts posts are saying to that matter). It it was linked to something else, like work/grinding, alliance are the summit of grinding so they would get them all and the new players would leave the game as they would have no chance. Well ATM new players who want to be researchers or manufacturers have no chance to get a T2 BPO. Invention will only help the older players lieke myself who have 200k+ RP... and depending on how much RP those datacores cost, we could be all out of RP in a few months and back in the same situation...
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:06:00 - [88] Originally by: Eilie It's funny (but also sad) that so many people don't understand what we're complaining about. Yes, the free market of EVE is working great. You expect something so rare and valuable to be sold for 75bil. The problem is that CCP shouldn't have just given away something like that to someone at random in the first place! So no, we are not jealous. We are mad because the person who got the BPO did NOTHING to deserve it! (Getting a research agent is so easy it's a joke.) You can say that life isn't fair. But this is a game where everyone starts out the same. You should get rare items with hard work, skill, and intelligence, not random luck! I'm on a roll here! We do understand, but there is no other way. On the market/game auction, if limited, only the rich will get them, so unfair. If result of RP or missions, unfair, only the grinder will get them. If in 0.0, so hard to get, unfair since only the alliance will get them (look for booster soon(tm). Only way to give a small chance to recent new players is that way, even if they have less RP than the old ones. So they did nothing to deserve it? Last time I checked, it took around 2 months to get RPM 5 and another science skills to 5. Does this remind you of something? Advanced learning? Maybe thoses doing that deserve a reward for it? Like the learning?
The Enslaver Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:13:00 - [89] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: zeKzn what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? qft There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. But would'nt you agree that thoses putting more effort (higher science skills and doing missions) would have better chance over a long time? They should have better chance, but in reality I don't think they do. Personally I believe the lottery system to be bugged anyway. --------
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:14:00 - [90] Originally by: d026 Quote: Easy? Do you have any ideas how hard it is to make theses items? Have you seen the number of tech 2 components is needed to build a single HAC? The discussion is not if its hard to produce a certain item (it cant be that hard i see lots of tII items on the market:) the problem is that you are given a TII BPO worth 75 BILIONS and the only thing you ever had to du if you were lucky is talking ONCE to your lvl 1 r&d agent. This just does not fall in line with how the complete rest of eve is working. Even running a lvl 1 kill mission involves more risk, you could be jumped on by a noobcorp suicideganker:) Ya but thoses using a lot of level 4 agents with their RPM 5 skill are getting a lot more RP a day than a loosy level 1 agent with level 2 science skills. He might get lucky, but 600'000 tickets versus 1'000 tickets, he got to be very lucky.

Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Scoundrelus The thing that annoys me is that getting a BPO is neither hard work nor skill, yet the people who get em end up getting really rich. It annoys me the same way as the lottery annoys me in real life. Here I am going through six years of schooling to get a good job and some shmuck who dropped out of school wins the lottery and is set for life. I can assure you that with a tech 2 bpo, you can make a lot of isk depending on which one you get but you are not set for life, FAR FROM IT. And with Kali... well... Life is short.
Father Weebles Panzershrek Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:16:00 - [92] Originally by: Wrayeth I agree with Jenny - leave the existing BPOs as BPOs. New BPOs or, even better, BPCs for the same items are fine, however. el oh el "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:22:00 - [93] I dunno. on one hand, I'm all for releasing some more BPO's from the original run BPO's, simply because of the increase in number of players. The latest batch of BPO's, about double the BPO's were created, because we have about double the population, compared to the first BPO's released. So i would not mind seeing another round of the old BPO's reeased, to being their supply up with current population numbers.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Eilie Well ATM new players who want to be researchers or manufacturers have no chance to get a T2 BPO. Invention will only help the older players lieke myself who have 200k+ RP... and depending on how much RP those datacores cost, we could be all out of RP in a few months and back in the same situation... Not at all! If like you, he train his science skills to get about the same RP by day than you, as soon as you get ONE bpo, your RP go to zero. Then he has the exact same chance as you.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:24:00 - [95] OK, This is the most fair system I can think of for both new/old players and both empire/alliance players: Keep the current research agents and auto RP gain system. Than allow people to buy BPOs from the agents for a combination of RP and ISK. Since you can only get a limited amount of RP per day, the BPOs will remain limited. The ISK you can get however method you like (missions, ratting, mining) in either 0.0 or empire. Cheap and common stuff would be sold for maybe 10k RP and 50mil ISK so that new players could start building T2 after a few weeks. Rare stuff like HACs could cost 200k RP and 10bil ISK which will allow them to remain rare but allow everyone an equal chance of eventually obtaining one. (Note: I am a combat character but I wasted a few months training Science 5, Reseach 5, RPM 4, and a few of the other research skills to 4 and now have over 200k RP and never even got an ammo BPO to show for all that time. So you can see why I am so mad.)
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:27:00 - [96] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: Eilie Well ATM new players who want to be researchers or manufacturers have no chance to get a T2 BPO. Invention will only help the older players lieke myself who have 200k+ RP... and depending on how much RP those datacores cost, we could be all out of RP in a few months and back in the same situation... Not at all! If like you, he train his science skills to get about the same RP by day than you, as soon as you get ONE bpo, your RP go to zero. Then he has the exact same chance as you. Umm... maybe you don't seem to know this, but right now both the newbie and myself (and everyone else) have a 0% chance of wining any T2 BPO because they have already been all handed out.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:31:00 - [97] Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: zeKzn what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? qft There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. But would'nt you agree that thoses putting more effort (higher science skills and doing missions) would have better chance over a long time? They should have better chance, but in reality I don't think they do. Personally I believe the lottery system to be bugged anyway. I know how you feel. But the thing is, there is so many players doing research and so few bpo released. If you can see on the market that there is not 100k of each items, so there was not that many bpo released. So if you are serious about getting a lot of RP, a lot more people were too. When we get a bpo, we don't state it on the forum. Only the new players that want to sell them say it. So they appear to be a few of them. It's not the norm. I see no reason to doubt the algorithm. Seeing a list of the winners to make sure it's working correctly is not really an option.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:40:00 - [98] Originally by: Eilie OK, This is the most fair system I can think of for both new/old players and both empire/alliance players: Keep the current research agents and auto RP gain system. Than allow people to buy BPOs from the agents for a combination of RP and ISK. Since you can only get a limited amount of RP per day, the BPOs will remain limited. The ISK you can get however method you like (missions, ratting, mining) in either 0.0 or empire. Alliances would have the upper hand on the isk chapter, as many convo told me. They always do the same thing, they buy one of your items. Then they private convo you and ask if you have a bpo or bought it from somewhere. Then they offer bils of isk for your bpo. It's no Joe 1 month player that can offer 5 bil for bpo. Quote: Cheap and common stuff would be sold for maybe 10k RP and 50mil ISK so that new players could start building T2 after a few weeks. Rare stuff like HACs could cost 200k RP and 10bil ISK which will allow them to remain rare but allow everyone an equal chance of eventually obtaining one. But that would not limit the supply, so it would be like the tech 1 market. All items at near cost. Mostly for alliance again since they can build their own tech 2 components. So everyone else would not be able to sell at that price. Limit in supply and production make sure tech 2 is worth it price wise. Quote: (Note: I am a combat character but I wasted a few months training Science 5, Reseach 5, RPM 4, and a few of the other research skills to 4 and now have over 200k RP and never even got an ammo BPO to show for all that time. So you can see why I am so mad.) If that can reassure you, when they release tech 3 bpo, who do you think has more chance to get the mail? You or the 1k RP new players that just talked to it's level 1 agent? Sure it won't be handed directly to you, but you have good chances, as everyone that followed your path has. Theses skills (like the learning ones) set back in combat skills, so you clearly have more chance that everyone else.
Xrak Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:44:00 - [99] There should never have been t2 bpos, only ever t2 bpcs given out in the same way as the bpos.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Eilie Umm... maybe you don't seem to know this, but right now both the newbie and myself (and everyone else) have a 0% chance of wining any T2 BPO because they have already been all handed out. In the past 2 years, there were often long period with no skills in the R&D queue. Did that mean that no more bpo were released? No. As a matter of fact, everyone is just stacking RP as time passes and that is the structure of the lottery. Even if bpo were in the queue, if you don't get them, your RP don't fall to zero, they just continue to grow slowly. Quote: Edit: Newbies also won't even be able to use the new Invention system for BPCs because the skills cost 200mil+ each. Well, Invention is not to help newbee enter the tech 2 market. It's to stabilize the price of some items. You'll see, it will be cheaper on the market than to invent.

Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.22 16:48:00 - [101] Edited by: Eilie on 22/10/2006 16:49:22 Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: Eilie OK, This is the most fair system I can think of for both new/old players and both empire/alliance players: Keep the current research agents and auto RP gain system. Than allow people to buy BPOs from the agents for a combination of RP and ISK. Since you can only get a limited amount of RP per day, the BPOs will remain limited. The ISK you can get however method you like (missions, ratting, mining) in either 0.0 or empire. Alliances would have the upper hand on the isk chapter, as many convo told me. They always do the same thing, they buy one of your items. Then they private convo you and ask if you have a bpo or bought it from somewhere. Then they offer bils of isk for your bpo. It's no Joe 1 month player that can offer 5 bil for bpo. Quote: Cheap and common stuff would be sold for maybe 10k RP and 50mil ISK so that new players could start building T2 after a few weeks. Rare stuff like HACs could cost 200k RP and 10bil ISK which will allow them to remain rare but allow everyone an equal chance of eventually obtaining one. But that would not limit the supply, so it would be like the tech 1 market. All items at near cost. Mostly for alliance again since they can build their own tech 2 components. So everyone else would not be able to sell at that price. Limit in supply and production make sure tech 2 is worth it price wise. The supply would still be limited in this system due to the limit of RP/day that you can make. It would take years for the rarer items to become sold at near cost prices. By than, T3 should already be out so it wouldn't matter. Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: Eilie (Note: I am a combat character but I wasted a few months training Science 5, Reseach 5, RPM 4, and a few of the other research skills to 4 and now have over 200k RP and never even got an ammo BPO to show for all that time. So you can see why I am so mad.) If that can reassure you, when they release tech 3 bpo, who do you think has more chance to get the mail? You or the 1k RP new players that just talked to it's level 1 agent? Sure it won't be handed directly to you, but you have good chances, as everyone that followed your path has. Theses skills (like the learning ones) set back in combat skills, so you clearly have more chance that everyone else. If they release T3 through the same system... well let's not think about that.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 17:26:00 - [102] Originally by: Eilie The supply would still be limited in this system due to the limit of RP/day that you can make. It would take years for the rarer items to become sold at near cost prices. By than, T3 should already be out so it wouldn't matter. So if there is a lot of tech 2 bpo re-released with Kali, everything will be fixed? No need to wait for years to pass. I'm talking about a massive seeding of tech 2. Quote: If they release T3 through the same system... well let's not think about that. Don't worry, the best is coming!
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.10.22 17:32:00 - [103] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 22/10/2006 17:33:10 Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: zeKzn what exactly is so rediculous about an extremely rare and valuable item being sold for an extremely high price? qft There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. But would'nt you agree that thoses putting more effort (higher science skills and doing missions) would have better chance over a long time? They should have better chance, but in reality I don't think they do. Personally I believe the lottery system to be bugged anyway. I believe it's not so much bugged as it is disproportionate. If T2 BPOs are really distributed by agent then those who are using lower level agents have an inherent advantage because few people use them. Whereas people who worked their way up to lvl 3-4 R&D agents have to compete with far more people. Same thing if they are distributed by agent level. The system needs a revamp badly if this is the case, I hate seeing people who put so little into research using lvl 1, 2 agents win T2 BPOs so often. At least the RP might be able to turned into something more useful with invention.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.22 17:33:00 - [104] No, honestly, there should be only Tech 1 BPO's, and that players can modify, though RnD, much like the promosed invention system. Bascailly, all hulls would have upgrade points, and you can upgrade your BPO however you want, add speed, armor, shield, high slot, ect. All upgrades use are rated using points, and you have to obtain items needed for upgrades through the RnD system. Then, you spend time and lab space to add your upgrades to your BPO until it's available points are maxxed out, or your happy. Would be long and costlly, but would give all players everything they wanted, the ability to create their own BPO's, and ships modified for thair playstyle. And all BPO's are obtained, not though luck, but work.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.10.22 17:55:00 - [105] The current Tech 2 system is idiotic. The fact that those items are so expensive boils down to only one thing: BPOs being artificially restricted. Eve has manufacturing all backwards. The knowledge of how to produce something is restricted to the extreme, but the means of making stuff once you have a blueprint are readily availible anywhere. It should be exactly the other way around. The Knowledge of how to make stuff should be availible to almost anyone, but the means of producing should be severely restricted and most of all, should be valid military targets. - Like in real life!!
Quin Tal Fort Knox Inc Expeto Libertas Foedus	Posted - 2006.10.22 17:56:00 - [106] If there were 3x as many BPO's, the market would still have them priced at 75billion, it wouldnt come down at all, even more people would be rich, the sky would fall and chickens would die.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:11:00 - [107] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/10/2006 18:14:32 Originally by: Azrael Bierce The problem with the current system is that through no amount of work can you acquire one. It is pure luck. And, on top of it all, all of the BPOs are out. A new player has NO access to that part of the game, and that is a horrible game mechanic. That is a ridiculous statement. New players have no access to far more content than T2 BPO's. They cannot fly capital ships. Should game mechanics be altered to allow them earlier access to this content too? Hell no. New players have enough to cope with learning the basics of the game. Why would CCP entrust T2 production to anyone who hasn't invested time in the game and shown evidence of commitment to it? "If you kill all the wolves, you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies. And by bunnies I mean stupid people." Ask Ninja
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Rafein I dunno. on one hand, I'm all for releasing some more BPO's from the original run BPO's, simply because of the increase in number of players. The latest batch of BPO's, about double the BPO's were created, because we have about double the population, compared to the first BPO's released. So i would not mind seeing another round of the old BPO's reeased, to being their supply up with current population numbers. /signed "If you kill all the wolves, you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies. And by bunnies I mean stupid people." Ask Ninja
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:54:00 - [109] Originally by: Noriath The current Tech 2 system is idiotic. The fact that those items are so expensive boils down to only one thing: BPOs being artificially restricted. Eve has manufacturing all backwards. The knowledge of how to produce something is restricted to the extreme, but the means of making stuff once you have a blueprint are readily availible anywhere. It should be exactly the other way around. The Knowledge of how to make stuff should be availible to almost anyone, but the means of producing should be severely restricted and most of all, should be valid military targets. - Like in real life!! This is how Eve differ the most from other MMORPG. In other games, you take a character class when you start (like a destiny if you wish) then you are stuck with that class attributes, abilities and magic. You are a fighter, you take a little healing magic and you are your own tank going into life. If you want to change your experience, you just buy another account. In Eve, you start like a human child, you have the possibility to be anything you wish, even the race you pick at startup does'nt changing anything in the ships you will be able to fly (except the first frigate type but it is'nt worth that much time wise and you can change at any time). So that bring us to specialization. You can be anything you have time to train skills for, but you take a general direction, pvp, mining, missions running, science or manufacturing (with new ones coming in Kali). You cannot be good in everything. So while you were able with tech 1 to take your ammo bpo with you and make them as you needed them at any station you happened to be when you ran low, with tech 2, you have to rely on thoses that trained for it. To have value, thoses products have to be rare (that can be seen as the harsh loses we have when we die compare to other game). So beeing rare, they have value. And also it help to distribute the market a little because thoses that cannot afford it won't use it. So it's impossible that everyone you come across pilot the same best HAC and you feel special when you have one. Like a Ferrari. You can see with tech 2 that even if you have some ships bpc (if anyone is making them) the skills requirement put it out of Jo General building capability. So no, players cannot self-suffice themselves anymore. They have to buy from manufacturers which now have a way to live of that. There is no need to buy a 75 bil bpo (that's clearly a good average price for discussion in light of invention) when you can just buy the stuff on the market if you need it. But I think that's your point, you don't want to need to buy it at high price if it's "that" good. CCP is trying to force the symbiotic relationship between the fighter and the builder so that they need each other without exploiting each other. It can be seen in POS (you need manufacturer but without fighter to defend it, how long will it last? Now the fighters may not want to run the POS by themselves. Ask any POS owner if ccp did'nt already force a symbiotic relationship between them and the traders/freighter pilots just to see the answer. It's gonna get even worst very soon when the alliances are gonna need each other... Yeah right!
Sean Dillon Caldari Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.22 19:14:00 - [110] I see it like this, the current t2 lotery system was implented and meant to supply tech 2 items for a population of about 1/3 then we have been playing today. Its normal that under the current system players can be very lucky, thats how it works these days. That however doesn't justify the prices and a change is needed. I hope the new invention system will bring in more t2 supply and press the prices for things like hacs and t2 assault frigates rails 425 mm t2. But t2 items should never become cheap. Just press them to a more accepteble level

hitech redneck Digital Mind Crimes	Posted - 2006.10.22 20:09:00 - [111] i would agree the whole lottery system is crap. I have 2 characters with 4 agents each for over 2 years and have yet to get 1 bpo. I know its luck. but just think about the time and isk i sink into running the mission for those 8 agents almost daily. If ccp would increase the the number of bpo's it would also help bring prices closer to build cost. For the number of players there is in eve now there is not near enough copies of many bpo's. Also when was the last time ccp checked to see if some of the t2 bpo where in accounts that are active and being used.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.22 22:38:00 - [112] Edited by: Zarch AlDain on 22/10/2006 22:39:37 Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: Azrael Bierce The problem with the current system is that through no amount of work can you acquire one. It is pure luck. And, on top of it all, all of the BPOs are out. A new player has NO access to that part of the game, and that is a horrible game mechanic. Why would you say that? New player only have to train to science 5, get another science skills to level 1 (yes he might have to buy it if he does'nt do mission) and then talk to a level 1 R&D agent. He does'nt have a lot of chance, but he has chance. If it was linked to work, only the alliances would get them. Or you can see what are the chance of a new player going against an alliance team-work to see who would have more chance to get that valuable items if it was'nt luck. Quote: New BPOs need to be released regularly through the invention system. Not when an existing one is blown up, or the owner quits, but constantly. This way everyone has access to the game content. ? They won't be seeded. You will only be allowed to trade your RP (as often as you wish) and try in a lab (again very limited in empire, better get a POS). Even then, luck might make you lose. Time for more bpc... The limit to oversupply from invention is not linked to the speed bpo or bpc will be released by invention but more with the research slots availability. Call it natural limit. Right, I can train up and start getting research points. In fact I started to do so. Then I looked a bit more closely - you do realise that there are 0, zero, none, nill, nada precisely didly squat T2 BPOs that have not been seeded? I will never, no matter how long I try, ever, ever, be able to build a Cerberus. Yes, I might get some random new ship that has just come out. Maybe - if I can be bothered to enter a 1 in a billion chance of winning against people who have been accumulating RP for years. If the ship/thing/watsit I get is actually any good or any use to me. etc. etc. And that all relies on new BPOs being seeded. Right now there are none out there. And there are also no plans announced by CCP for new tech 2 ships - the only new ships comming are tech 1 - so I shouldn't expect to see anything anytime soon either. Zarch AlDain
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:07:00 - [113] Originally by: Taedrin Econ 101. People have unlimited wants in a world of limited resources. MMOs currently have the problem in that their worlds have unlimited resources. This leads to mudflation and oversaturates the market. It makes player professions unprofitable and destroys the game's economy. Be limiting the number of T2 BPOs in circulation, CCP guarantees that T2 ships will always be expensive items, even after years of mudflation. Read, people, read. I may have to keep quoting this post untill people stop whining about something they don't even understand, let alone something that if they get their way will ruin the game even more. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
GuruJ Gallente Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.22 23:33:00 - [114] Edited by: GuruJ on 22/10/2006 23:35:21 The firts posters idea's are right on. Some T2 BPO's are like gold plated ATM Machines. In the last year alone the game has increased by many thousands of players. The current amount of T2 BPO's are not nearly enough for the market and the prices are outragous. Hulk prices and wait times are a great example. 3 more of them would bring the price down a little and allow more players access. NAGA is the largest seller of T2 Mods in the game and they can never keep up with orders. They also have more T2 BPO's to work with then anyone! Like any market..... a small percentage of players hold 70%+ of all the T2 BPO's. It's colusion, market fixing, price fixing, unfair, and discouraging. Invention or not new players should have a chance at an active T2 BPO marekt. MY BRIGHT IDEA!!!! I say triple the number of T2 BPO's & you could also introduce T2 BPC's of 10-100 run. You would see the wealth spread around, and more winners more often. Invention is cute but you can't punish those that invested the time in getting their 5x lvl 4 agents running for the last 6 months with no results. Invention should either be skill free for those with the "Research Project Management" skills or you change the regular T2 BPO market to reward those in the lottery system. (PS: please notice the dead BOB in my sig stats. ASCN>BOB!) "Fancy ships, big guns, and expensive things; what about your soul does it Bling Bling?"
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:39:00 - [115] Edited by: infraX on 23/10/2006 00:42:25 Limited T2 BPO's given out by a lottery was very bad game design in that it gave few people a very big I-Win button for eve. The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. Invention is a step in the right direction for increasing supply but it seems like a lot of effort and expense. I'm not sure there will be a large enough increase in supply of t2 items to dent the current market prices very much. The way faction items/ships are introduced into the game is a much fairer way of getting a limited amount of uber rare/cool/expensive items into the game. T2 fails at this and has become almost a bare necessity for pvp unlike faction stuff. It would be unfair to change bpo's to bpc's now because some people have invested billions in prints (and not necessarily just been handed them from an agent). This money hasn't always come from the same t2 production. It would be nice if bpo's could be made attainable through some other means than just the lottery. Whether that means alliances spending tens of billions to get them or having to get all their members to work really hard by doing xyz, it would be nice. It would increase supply without making T2 production the free for all the T1 is. T2 should be more expensive than T1 but that doesn't mean that all proceeds from T2 should line the pockets of a few lucky individuals. If Corp A and Corp B have an equal amount of members who are equally skilled and they decide to have a war. If Corp A has a T2 bpo (assume something semi-decent that sells) and Corp B doesn't....need I continue this?
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:04:00 - [116] If you think a t2 item is overpriced then dont buy it. If you buy a t2 item overpriced then you drive up the value of the bpo. So, lets recap. It's all the consumers fault.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:04:00 - [117] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Right, I can train up and start getting research points. In fact I started to do so. Then I looked a bit more closely - you do realise that there are 0, zero, none, nill, nada precisely didly squat T2 BPOs that have not been seeded? Oh ya? So it's impossible that they release a new batch for an existing tech 2 products? It's not possible to have something like a Amarr Control Tower 2 bpo be seeded? The queue that the agents show are the bpo that will be released within 2 weeks, not what is left forever. Quote: I will never, no matter how long I try, ever, ever, be able to build a Cerberus. That is if there is no new batch released, which there might be. Quote: Yes, I might get some random new ship that has just come out. Maybe - if I can be bothered to enter a 1 in a billion chance of winning against people who have been accumulating RP for years. If the ship/thing/watsit I get is actually any good or any use to me. etc. etc. Nobody has been accumulating RP for years since as soon as you win one bpo and take it, they go to zero RP and thus you have way more chance than them. Quote: And that all relies on new BPOs being seeded. Right now there are none out there. Ya, there is none for the next 2 weeks, sure. Quote: And there are also no plans announced by CCP for new tech 2 ships - the only new ships comming are tech 1 - so I shouldn't expect to see anything anytime soon either. My zod, you are going to fall off your chair with Kali. I plan a tech 3 bpo but sure, aim for tech 2 if you wish, your loss.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:17:00 - [118] Originally by: DeODokktor If you think a t2 item is overpriced then dont buy it. If you buy a t2 item overpriced then you drive up the value of the bpo. So, lets recap. It's all the consumers fault. THIS would be a perfectly correct argument IF you would have the OPTION of getting it anywhere else. Do you see anywhere Ravens ("standard" Ravens, not CNRs) going for 150+ mil ? Even in deep 0.0 space ? Guess not. Why? Because you can just lug a 1+ run BPC that costed you next to nothing and just BUILD it yourself (even with minimal skills) wherever you go. As if the T2 market wasn't bad enough as it is, with heavy lack of BPOs and even BPCs on sale, you also have much higher skills requirements to build (much, much higher), and you need pretty specialised components on top of everything else. EVEN IF there would be a lot more T2 BPOs in existance, EVEN IF making 1-run copies of BPs would take a tiny faction of the time it takes to build one batch (and it doesn't), you'd STILL have a building-material related shortage that would KEEP prices up, and a heavy shortage of people ABLE to build the items in the first place (do YOU have the skills needed to build a Cerberus, even if you had all components ?) ___ IT'S NOT THE CONSUMER'S FAULT It's the fault of CCP for: - not releasing enough (if any) new T2 BPOs, even if demand for modules is steady on the increase, and quite heavily - not making blueprint research, copy and reselling comparable in profitability to actually building the damn things yourself __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Jon Engel APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:19:00 - [119] I personally hate the current Tech2 Cartel. Flooding the market with a horde of em is not what would work, but periodically adding more is what is currently needed. We have more players who can fly tech2 ships than when the last batch was released. Im in favor of module BPOS being sold in the open market through NPCs or agent LP offers. Ships is what is the most disgusting aspect of ignorance on this subject. the fact is we need more Tech2 Ship BPOs, and badly. All but a few folks out of the thousands who play this game have access to a cheap Tech2 ship. Adding more would allow the price of HACs, Command ships, Crows, Taranis's to come down to theyre actuall worth and not a way for the lucky few to do nothing but log in once a week and transfer funds to their pvp alts.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:45:00 - [120] Originally by: Eilie The supply would still be limited in this system due to the limit of RP/day that you can make. It would take years for the rarer items to become sold at near cost prices. By than, T3 should already be out so it wouldn't matter. If you read the devblog they referenced a NON-RP way to get datacores. There will be SOME cap to the supply but it wont be as low as you think. Quote: If they release T3 through the same system... well let's not think about that. What else are they going to do? Its better to randomnly distribute them then to hand limited resources to power gamers. People who grind should be buying these BPOs (and they are) not being handed them for grinding. There isn't a better system than the lottery because randomness with limited ways to improve your chances is the most fair way you can do things. The Enemy's Gate is Down

Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:47:00 - [121] CCP should try to figure out when the market is becoming unstable due to highly increased demand and try to stabilize it by seeding more BPOs. If this is done right then the value of the BPOs will remaind constant at whatever level, as will the price. Demand is continuously increasing and invention is the only way to increase supply. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Extreme Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:57:00 - [122] Edited by: Extreme on 23/10/2006 02:05:54 Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents. I bet 90% of yours have all your R&D agents set to research Starship Engineering all at the same faction. Result: Very small chance. Aside of this, a starship BPO T2 is actually only valuable in the right hands (read; right corporations) It will involve alot of manpower by members to setup and maintain towers for moonharvesting materials -> producing simple reactions -> complex reactions -> intermediates -> T2 construction components -> high risk freighter trips from deepspace to empire -> producing T2 ships -> selling ships with maxed tradeskills -> buy fuels off market -> freighter these fuels back to deepspace to keep your pos's running. ... meanwhile you have to hold/defend your claimed deepspace region and clean the region from hostiles that are roaming around. This will answer many questions why the most valuable T2 bpo's will end up at the larger (deepspace) corporations. For a fact, a Claymore Commandship cost of production is around 80 Million isk and that ship does only sell for around 80M isk, ZERO profit there as you have to calculate all the taxes too. Field Command ships however generate a bit better isk. The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now. In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Investing in large isk costing projects making isk disappear from the game is a good way to reduce 'inflation'. If CCP would release more rare bpo's then there's no way to "take isks out of game" I'm sorry if i step on many toes here but CCP ain't doing bad at all. . .
Father Weebles Panzershrek Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:10:00 - [123] Here's a joke Why should a hulk be rare? Because a tech2 bpo winnar said so LOL! "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Genericforumalt Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:13:00 - [124] Originally by: Father Weebles Here's a joke Why should a hulk be rare? Because a tech2 bpo winnar said so LOL! b-cuz swaffer needs his minring dreds.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:29:00 - [125] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Eilie The supply would still be limited in this system due to the limit of RP/day that you can make. It would take years for the rarer items to become sold at near cost prices. By than, T3 should already be out so it wouldn't matter. If you read the devblog they referenced a NON-RP way to get datacores. There will be SOME cap to the supply but it wont be as low as you think. That quote had nothing to do with Invention. I was talking about the system that I had proposed in a previous post which would have been more fair than the lottery. Originally by: Baun Originally by: Eilie If they release T3 through the same system... well let's not think about that. What else are they going to do? Its better to randomnly distribute them then to hand limited resources to power gamers. People who grind should be buying these BPOs (and they are) not being handed them for grinding. There isn't a better system than the lottery because randomness with limited ways to improve your chances is the most fair way you can do things. Actually the people buying most of the T2 BPOs are people who won other T2 BPOs... Anyway, this is the system I had proposed in a previous post which I believe is alot more fair: Originally by: Eilie Keep the current research agents and auto RP gain system. Than allow people to buy BPOs from the agents for a combination of RP and ISK. Since you can only get a limited amount of RP per day, the BPOs will remain limited. The ISK you can get however method you like (missions, ratting, mining) in either 0.0 or empire. Cheap and common stuff would be sold for maybe 10k RP and 50mil ISK so that new players could start building T2 after a few weeks. Rare stuff like HACs could cost 200k RP and 10bil ISK which will allow them to remain rare but allow everyone an equal chance of eventually obtaining one.
Padack Dark Star Combine Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:38:00 - [126] or allow them to be won from agents like faction ships. BPO's in most cases would not help people because the average person does not have the abiliy to produce the nessary parts also needed to construct it.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:45:00 - [127] Originally by: Extreme Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents. I bet 90% of yours have all your R&D agents set to research Starship Engineering all at the same faction. Result: Very small chance. Aside of this, a starship BPO T2 is actually only valuable in the right hands (read; right corporations) It will involve alot of manpower by members to setup and maintain towers for moonharvesting materials -> producing simple reactions -> complex reactions -> intermediates -> T2 construction components -> high risk freighter trips from deepspace to empire -> producing T2 ships -> selling ships with maxed tradeskills -> buy fuels off market -> freighter these fuels back to deepspace to keep your pos's running. ... meanwhile you have to hold/defend your claimed deepspace region and clean the region from hostiles that are roaming around. This will answer many questions why the most valuable T2 bpo's will end up at the larger (deepspace) corporations. For a fact, a Claymore Commandship cost of production is around 80 Million isk and that ship does only sell for around 80M isk, ZERO profit there as you have to calculate all the taxes too. Field Command ships however generate a bit better isk. The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now. In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Investing in large isk costing projects making isk disappear from the game is a good way to reduce 'inflation'. If CCP would release more rare bpo's then there's no way to "take isks out of game" I'm sorry if i step on many toes here but CCP ain't doing bad at all. LMAO. 1) You are another person who missed the whole point of this thread. We don't care about the prices. We are mad that the lottery was unfair. We did the same amount of work as you, but you got 3 BPOs and we got none. 2) Thank you for insulting us by saying that most people couldn't make proper use of a T2 BPO. Here's a hint: You don't have to do everything yourself. You can buy all the components and not have to do anything but build the item. 3) Hulk is the only ISK printer in the game? Ever hear of HACs? Over 200mil profit each! 4) When you said you invested your profit in a "large isk costing projects" did you mean that you bought something from another player or from NPCs? If you just spent your money buying stuff from other players than you did not take any ISK out of the economy. (I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.) 5) If CCP added more T2 BPOs through the lottery it would take ISK out of the game because more people would have to buy POSs to moon mine. If CCP added more T2 BPOs through a system like the one I proposed in my other post, than it would take even more ISK out of the game!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:57:00 - [128] Originally by: Eilie If CCP added more T2 BPOs through the lottery it would take ISK out of the game because more people would have to buy POSs to moon mine. If CCP added more T2 BPOs through a system like the one I proposed in my other post, than it would take even more ISK out of the game! The exact SAME thing would happend if blueprint copy time would be 10 times lower as manufacture time. Selling 1 item at 200 mil profit per unit (250 mil per unit, 50 mil cost) or selling 10 BPCs at 20+ mil pure profit per unit (negligible costs, no headaches)... what would YOU do ? Even if the "final" T2 manufacturer would sell at 60+ mil profit for himself instead of 200 mil profit, that's still half of today's prices... and the market can easily assimilate more than 10 times the number of ships manufactured nowadays. The T2 owners would still profit about the same as they do now, would have a lot less actual work to do, and the price fights are now driven by moon materials (read: PvP) instead of sheer dumb luck. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Extreme Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:06:00 - [129] Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Extreme Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents. I bet 90% of yours have all your R&D agents set to research Starship Engineering all at the same faction. Result: Very small chance. Aside of this, a starship BPO T2 is actually only valuable in the right hands (read; right corporations) It will involve alot of manpower by members to setup and maintain towers for moonharvesting materials -> producing simple reactions -> complex reactions -> intermediates -> T2 construction components -> high risk freighter trips from deepspace to empire -> producing T2 ships -> selling ships with maxed tradeskills -> buy fuels off market -> freighter these fuels back to deepspace to keep your pos's running. ... meanwhile you have to hold/defend your claimed deepspace region and clean the region from hostiles that are roaming around. This will answer many questions why the most valuable T2 bpo's will end up at the larger (deepspace) corporations. For a fact, a Claymore Commandship cost of production is around 80 Million isk and that ship does only sell for around 80M isk, ZERO profit there as you have to calculate all the taxes too. Field Command ships however generate a bit better isk. The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now. In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Investing in large isk costing projects making isk disappear from the game is a good way to reduce 'inflation'. If CCP would release more rare bpo's then there's no way to "take isks out of game" I'm sorry if i step on many toes here but CCP ain't doing bad at all. LMAO. 1) You are another person who missed the whole point of this thread. We don't care about the prices. We are mad that the lottery was unfair. We did the same amount of work as you, but you got 3 BPOs and we got none. 2) Thank you for insulting us by saying that most people couldn't make proper use of a T2 BPO. Here's a hint: You don't have to do everything yourself. You can buy all the components and not have to do anything but build the item. 3) Hulk is the only ISK printer in the game? Ever hear of HACs? Over 200mil profit each! 4) When you said you invested your profit in a "large isk costing projects" did you mean that you bought something from another player or from NPCs? If you just spent your money buying stuff from other players than you did not take any ISK out of the economy. (I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.) 5) If CCP added more T2 BPOs through the lottery it would take ISK out of the game because more people would have to buy POSs to moon mine. If CCP added more T2 BPOs through a system like the one I proposed in my other post, than it would take even more ISK out of the game! 1. Lotteries are never fair 2. Alot of these components come from overhead production of deepspace corporations. 3. A Hulk needs way less skills in order to use it than to be able to fly a HAC. A Hulk is the only ship that really can make some good money for a single player. So the market demand is high and currently increasing, marketprices go over 500M now. 4. Large isk costing projects were the deployment of 3 outposts, buying and deploying a large number of POS's to claim sovreignty, burning fuels to keep the POS's running. Buying all capital construction bpo's from NPC (multiple sets), buying all carrier and dreadnought bpo's, buying Mothership BPO's. 5. I disagree as pure moonharvesting POS's will generate more isks than the costs of burning fuels as there's no need to claim sovreignty and to keep your space clean of hostiles. ('stealth' POS's) . .
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:25:00 - [130] Originally by: Extreme 1. Lotteries are never fair 2. Alot of these components come from overhead production of deepspace corporations. 3. A Hulk needs way less skills in order to use it than to be able to fly a HAC. A Hulk is the only ship that really can make some good money for a single player. So the market demand is high and currently increasing, marketprices go over 500M now. 4. Large isk costing projects were the deployment of 3 outposts, buying and deploying a large number of POS's to claim sovreignty, burning fuels to keep the POS's running. Buying all capital construction bpo's from NPC (multiple sets), buying all carrier and dreadnought bpo's, buying Mothership BPO's. 5. I disagree as pure moonharvesting POS's will generate more isks than the costs of burning fuels as there's no need to claim sovreignty and to keep your space clean of hostiles. ('stealth' POS's) 1) Yes, lotteries arn't fair. That is why it shouldn't have been a lottery. The rest doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, but I'll answer them anyway... 2) Looking at the market in Jita right now, I could easily buy all the items to build a HAC, a Hulk, or any other T2 item. I don't need my own moon mining POS. 3) Many many people can use HACs these days... and there are many other BPOs that make alot of profit. 4) Well that's nice. You used your Hulk profits to remove money from the economy. If someone else had the same money it would eventually be removed anyway so it doesn't really matter. 5) A POS will NEVER generate any ISK into the economy. Only remove ISK from fuel. A POS can make you money, but you get that money from other players, not from NPCs.

Extreme Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:35:00 - [131] Edited by: Extreme on 23/10/2006 03:36:40 Originally by: Eilie 4) ...(I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.) Not quite true; 1. T1 one ships you'll lose the insurance fee of the platinum insurance pay out (to NPC) 2. T2 ships makes no sense at all to insure these as the platinum pay out is not covering the market valued costs obtaining a new T2 ship. When your ship gets popped you actually losing alot of money, not to mention your destroyed named and T2 gear and thus reducing isk in game (non NPC) . .
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:52:00 - [132] Originally by: Extreme Originally by: Eilie 4) ...(I ask this because that thread on insurance and inflation yesterday showed that most people are too stupid to understand that only giving money to NPCs reduces inflation.) Not quite true; 1. T1 one ships you'll lose the insurance fee of the platinum insurance pay out (to NPC) 2. T2 ships makes no sense at all to insure these as the platinum pay out is not covering the market valued costs obtaining a new T2 ship. When your ship gets popped you actually losing alot of money, not to mention your destroyed named and T2 gear and thus reducing isk in game (non NPC) /sigh... not this again... When your ship is destroyed, money is added to the game, not removed. This is true whether you have insurance or not, and whether you are using T1, T2, named, or faction mods. You may lose alot of ISK, but money is added into the game from insurance. This is really off topic now... let's try to stay on topic...
Extreme Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:58:00 - [133] Actually i'm done with the topic . .
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:09:00 - [134] Originally by: Extreme 1. Lotteries are never fair In what sense are free lotteries never fair? Someone who gets a research agent has to pay nothing to continue to acquire RP. He has a small initial startup cost in time and effort and thats it. If the system works as purported everyone has a chance to win based on the number of RP they have. The semi-unique valuable assets are handed to those who have a very minimal ability to control their probability of receipt. While some people seem to think that this is what makes the lottery unfair, it is precisely what makes the lottery fair. No one can improve their odds of receiving a BPO enough to ensure receipt. This means that the most valuable assets in game are not just handed to the power gamers. Instead, joe schmo noob has a comparable chance of receiving a BPO as Mr. Awesome T2 producer with 500billion isk. If joe schmo wants to produce with it he can, or he can exact a large amount of isk out of whoever is willing to pay. This is the essence of fairness. Those with more time to devote to EVE can only minimally improve their odds of getting a BPO. Therefore these people have to pay quite a bit in order to acquire the BPOs; Quid pro quo. What would be more fair? People are conflating different issues. T2 being expensive does not have to do with how fair the lottery is or is not. The BPO is potentially as valuable in the hands of the person who originally owned it as it is in the hands of the person who paid an exhorbitant amount for it. What you are really arguing about is the number of BPOs seeded, not the method of their delivery. The Enemy's Gate is Down
SamtheDog	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:11:00 - [135] This type of posting just irks me in the sense that some people have such a simplistic style of thinking that it makes me cringe. I've got quite a few tech2 bpo's (ships/guns/drones/launchers) & NEVER won any of them. Alot of people cry about the availability of tech2 bpo's..like they expect them to drop in their lap cause they want them & cry about it when they can't get stuff they want super cheap. Need isk? Then I suggest you grind it for awhile & do it old school...go mine..do missions..get lucky but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T **** YOUR ISK AWAY PUTTING IT ALL IN EXPENSIVE SHIPS THAT GET GANKED. It happens so often that people never acknowledge that they did a Joe. So let's imagine that tech2 bpo's are now more available..say CCP gets a brain fart & cowers to the demands of the noob who truly does not understand the true complexity this gmae beyond "bpo's". So you get your shiney new bpo..but suddnelty realize that the COMPONENTS are not there. The people who moon mine & do reactions to make your ships are suddenly out of stock. Component prices rise 5X & your stuck again spending 70M to make a hac now becuase all the components are now out of stock. So they're now much more epxenisve to make & less profit for you (which I highly doubt since most noobs never even considred the skills required to make t2 stuff & would complain it's too hard & beg CCP to drop the skills needed to t1 levels. BUT...now omg....the alliances in 0.0 space won't sell their rare elements for 9k/unit anymore..,htye want 50k! IT'S NOT FAIR!! I have the right to build my t2 ships super cheap cause I'm a noob & too lazy to train up the stuff or evenbuy a char by WORKING in the game. The sad reality for you is if you wnt it....then you'll have to use your brain to make the isk to buy your stuff. Every t2 bpo has it's price. Now if you're not able ot realize the potential in eve to make isk w/o mindless mining..then you probably shouldn't be able ot have one. For the rest of us who made 50bn WITHOUT leaving stn or building....we're more than happy watching the lazy & clueless noobs whine while CCP looks at you guys shaking their heads since they fully understand your point of view comes from ignorance. T2 if fine.... Cheers! Sam
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:23:00 - [136] Originally by: SamtheDog So you get your shiney new bpo..but suddnelty realize that the COMPONENTS are not there. The people who moon mine & do reactions to make your ships are suddenly out of stock. Component prices rise 5X & your stuck again spending 70M to make a hac now becuase all the components are now out of stock. So they're now much more epxenisve to make & less profit for you (which I highly doubt since most noobs never even considred the skills required to make t2 stuff & would complain it's too hard & beg CCP to drop the skills needed to t1 levels. BUT...now omg....the alliances in 0.0 space won't sell their rare elements for 9k/unit anymore..,htye want 50k! And here I went assuming that's a GOOD thing. No, I'm not an alt. Neither a T2 BPO lottery winner. Nor (currently) a mining POS owner. And I still think THAT would be a VERY GOOD ideea. Why ? Simply because much more people would start moving their fraking behinds into lowsec/0.0 to MINE those damn moons already. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Extreme Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:25:00 - [137] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Extreme 1. Lotteries are never fair In what sense are free lotteries never fair? I was being ironic . .
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:32:00 - [138] Originally by: Extreme Originally by: Baun Originally by: Extreme 1. Lotteries are never fair In what sense are free lotteries never fair? I was being ironic So, what, now you claim "free lotteries" ARE sometimes fair ? Lotteries are NEVER fair, period. Anything involving luck isn't "fair", ever. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Extreme Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 04:36:00 - [139] Lotteries are never fair unless you're a winner. Thats the irony of it. . .
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:03:00 - [140] Originally by: Extreme Lotteries are never fair unless you're a winner. Thats the irony of it. That's not irony, that's relativity __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)

Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:11:00 - [141] Originally by: Extreme Lotteries are never fair unless you're a winner. Of which you yourself have admitted. You do realize that, as a t2 BPO holder, your dissenting opinion is moot, right? I hold no t2 BPO's, and I am acutely aware of just how F(&@#ing complicated t2 production is. But the argument that releasing t2 BPO's would do nothing is entirely incorrect. First, the number of people capable of actual t2 production is unknown (but we can presume that it's larger than the current stable of t2 BP holders). Releasing additional BPO's into the market also encourages people to learn these skills. Second, the argument that supplies will dry up is incorrect. If the demand spikes, the supply market will experience a price increase, true enough, but production will also go up. If BPO's are seeded into the market, the opportunity cost for moonmining for profit goes way up, and subsequently, so will the supplies of material (this will have a cheapening effect on ship prices, as producers compete for business volume). Third, the system for invention is at least as complicated as current t2 production, in skills and procedure, if not moreso. Invention is a good step, but doesn't go far enough to entice people into using it (one spends exorbinant amounts of ISK for the mere possibility* of a BPC). Releasing BPO's, on the other hand, is a very large (and guaranteed) opportunity to either produce one's own supplies, or to make profits. To put it succinctly: 1. People can fly t2 ships (demand in the market) 2. Current production capabilities are limited by supplies of BP's (low supplies) 3. Market situations result in large costs (which are not recouped in insurance, no matter how many times you're going to try to prove 2+2=5) This situation results in a large profit capability for a small number of players. Releasing BPO's into the market: 4. Increases demand for t2 production components, increasing profit for low/no-sec activities. 5. Increased component demand drives prices lower (by increased competition). 6. Production of t2 by many builders will result in lower prices. OTOH, Invention: 1. Increases complexity of development. 2. Does not sufficiently engender lower production costs. 3. Contains too many uncertainties to become a regular system for decreasing price/increasing access to t2 items. It would seem as though the only ones arguing for the continued system of lottery are those who already (and by their own admission) have an ISK-making t2 BPO. - Trem
babo Gallente Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:14:00 - [142] On this topic, I know a little as I did moon mining for a while and reactions etc.. There is a LOT of work that goes into bringing together the various parts of T2 ships and at every stage people want to make money. Moon miners have to sit around and figure out if buying ice products to fuel the pos is the best way and if not they have to spend a ton of time ICE mining. Those things are not gold and take a lot to keep going. Allowing POS to be erected in empire with the charters was supposed to help the t2 production so that carebears could get in on the action, but the added expense of the charters makes that also cost much more and I am not sure how much this has helped. and.. on that topic.. frankly, POS's should have "POS fuel" which is made from the various ice components instead of the way it is done now with various items you stock the POS with.. It is ridiculous.. I finally got fed up with spending all my time hauling around various fuels and trying to get my minerals to market and sold my whole setup of several POS's I have respect for the guys who can deal with that.. I think it is perhaps one of the parts of the game that is the worst to attempt to run solo. Anyway.. I have 5 research agents all spread out, no BPO drops, I would love one, but I do realize that it is a lottery system. Quit complaining about the system, it does work. The only part that I see being an issue is that pretty standard things are happening that are part of capitalism, the big guys make money if they can corner a market and have a monopoly on a certain product so they buy up all the stray BPO's around from new guys who sell BPO's instead of training skills and using it. The random BPO drops can help some on making it a little harder to do that. Usually around every patch CCP seems to do good quantities of BPO drops, so cross your fingers we have some patches coming up :)
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:34:00 - [143] Edited by: Baun on 23/10/2006 05:42:56 Originally by: Akita T So, what, now you claim "free lotteries" ARE sometimes fair ? Lotteries are NEVER fair, period. Anything involving luck isn't "fair", ever. That makes absolutely no sense. If everyone has essentialy the same chance to get a given reward, how is it not fair? No one is being rewarded for anything that they can or cannot control, no one is being penalized for anything they can or cannot control. More to the point, no one is being rewarded more than they should be for playing the game more than someone else. It would be quite a bit more unfair if it were NOT based on luck. In that case everyone would have a legitimate reason to *** and whine about how agent ***s were being unjustly compensated for grinding all day long by CCP, and how this was really just a way to encourage people to play more and get more accounts. As it stands now there is only a slight reward for establishing many high lvl research agents. You increase your chances to win but you are assured of nothing. I have a character with lvl5 science skills and 6 research agents. I don't feel like I am being cheated because I can't assure myself of a BPO. If the system is not bugged and is actually working like a lottery (some reason to believe it didn't always) then I have no problem with it, CCP is not biasing it towards anyone. I will try to state this as simply as possible; If CCP's goal is in implimenting the lottery system was to distribute the T2 BPOs without creating further rewards for heightened gameplay while providing an avenue for those interested to increase their chances, then they have succeeded. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:39:00 - [144] Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52 Originally by: infraX The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:39:00 - [145] Originally by: Trem Sinval Third, the system for invention is at least as complicated as current t2 production, in skills and procedure, if not moreso. Invention is a good step, but doesn't go far enough to entice people into using it (one spends exorbinant amounts of ISK for the mere possibility of a BPC). Releasing BPO's, on the other hand, is a very large (and guaranteed) opportunity to either produce one's own supplies, or to make profits. To state this again, the question of how many BPOs should be seeded has abolustely nothing to do with the lottery. It makes alot of sense for CCP to look at the stability of the T2 market as it faces increasing demand and seed more BPOs in order to mitigate price increases. It seems that they are at least going to see how much invention impacts the situation before they think about doing this. To put it succinctly, people should not conflate the question of supply with the question of BPO allocation. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:45:00 - [146] Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52 Originally by: infraX The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not. Quite. Look at a "common basket of goods" ;P to establish inflation. Things like minerals and BSs etc show that there is no inflation. BS prices are highly constant and it might even be the case that macro miners are deflating the value of minerals. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:49:00 - [147] what they need to do is simply make it so that anyone who wants to get one can get one, caveat all of them are like 20 run limited bpo and people can constantly get as many as they want, then get rid of all the unlimited runs. This way active producers can keep a supply going, and people will move to where the market prices are highest to keep the prices level. Adding a few more wont change anything, the problem is the fact the system right now has limited bpos meaning either you got lucky and got one or you never getting one IE monopoly time.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:55:00 - [148] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 what they need to do is simply make it so that anyone who wants to get one can get one, caveat all of them are like 20 run limited bpo and people can constantly get as many as they want, then get rid of all the unlimited runs. This way active producers can keep a supply going, and people will move to where the market prices are highest to keep the prices level. Adding a few more wont change anything, the problem is the fact the system right now has limited bpos meaning either you got lucky and got one or you never getting one IE monopoly time. Limited supply does not create a monopoly. If someone either owned all the BPOs or set the prices on them for a specific item, then all that would happen is that the prices would go up and volume would go down. Under some circumstances its possible to make more money this way, but given that there are very few essential T2 items its is doubtful that this would be profitable. Of course I am sure someone can make a compelling analogy to the international diamond cartel that explains how you can make alot of money by branding non-essential items and jacking the price up by limiting supply. High prices exist because of static supply and high demand. The way to regulate prices is to seed more BPOs. You can't change the goalposts now and try to give free access to T2 production. You probably can, however, seed more BPOs in order to regulate supply against ever increasing demand. This wouldn't effect current BPO values, it would just prevent them from increasing except during the times between seedings. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 05:57:00 - [149] Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52 Originally by: infraX The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not. So, are you arguing there ISN'T much more ISK in the game "per capita" as there was, say 1 year ago ? That's inflation, by definition itself. Having people that KEEP buying "monopolistic-priced" products to a point where the monopol-holders CAN NOT EVEN MATCH the demand (in spite of insane prices) only due to their own production-line limitations, that's another SIGN of inflation. __ Right now, insurance payouts create money. Insurance premiums destroy money. Overall, more money gets created than destroyed REGARDLESS of insured ship (I sincerely doubt less than 30% of 100%-level insured ships blow up, and even uninsured ships still give you a 40% "generation"). All in all, insurance GENERATES much more ISK as it destroys. Mission rewards and bounties of any type create ISK. NPC goods freighter trading ALSO creates ISK in the end. The only (significant) ISK "sinks" are T1 BPO, POS structures, POS-related "consumables" and skillbook purchases from NPCs. Oh, and any market trade in NPC stations, we can't forget that one... would lose seing ALL items on the market rather than in escrow TBH... escrow has failed miserably. Insurance creates more as it destroys, agent offers sometimes destroy ISK, but not nearly enough. The amount of ISK ENTERING the game is in no way balanced with AMOUNT OF NEW PLAYERS. It doesn't help AT ALL that people that quit playing usually GIVE their ISK away to friends or their corps. So yeah, inflation (as in ISK/capita ratio) is on the loose, and T2/officer/faction prices are the best INDICATOR of just how rampant the inflation really IS. Mining, manufacturing and everything else just SHIFTS ISK around between players, by the way, in case you failed to realise that. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:05:00 - [150] Originally by: Akita T So, are you arguing there ISN'T much more ISK in the game "per capita" as there was, say 1 year ago ? That's inflation, by definition itself. No, thats an increase in the money supply. Inflation is, and ONLY is, an increase in prices across a well-constructed and representative price index. Quote: Having people that KEEP buying "monopolistic-priced" products to a point where the monopol-holders CAN NOT EVEN MATCH the demand (in spite of insane prices) only due to their own production-line limitations, that's another SIGN of inflation. What, exactly, do you mean by match the demand? It is economically impossible for there to be no point of equilibrium unless the supply and demand lines are parallel, which is only really economically feasible with both being perfectly inelastic. Supply is perfectly inelastic here, but demand sure as hell isn't. Quote: Right now, insurance payouts create money. Insurance premiums destroy money. Overall, more money gets created than destroyed REGARDLESS of insured ship (I sincerely doubt less than 30% of 100%-level insured ships blow up, and even uninsured ships still give you a 40% "generation"). All in all, insurance GENERATES much more ISK as it destroys. Yes. Quote: Mission rewards and bounties of any type create ISK. NPC goods freighter trading ALSO creates ISK in the end. Yes, and yes, although I doubt NPC goods trading creates much at all. Quote: The only (significant) ISK "sinks" are T1 BPO, POS structures, POS-related "consumables" and skillbook purchases from NPCs. Oh, and any market trade in NPC stations, we can't forget that one... would lose seing ALL items on the market rather than in escrow TBH... escrow has failed miserably.[/b] Insurance creates more as it destroys, agent offers sometimes destroy ISK, but not nearly enough. How do you know this? I'm not even sure I can take your word that isk per capita has increased, without figures. Quote: The amount of ISK ENTERING the game is in no way balanced with AMOUNT OF NEW PLAYERS. Who gave you the right/qualification to define where the balance is? Balance is a matter of perspective and opinion. Quote: So yeah, inflation (as in ISK/capita ratio) is on the loose, and T2/officer/faction prices are the best INDICATOR of just how rampant the inflation really IS. As pointed out, economically inflation has nothing to do with isk/capita except if you're a monetarist, in which case it is the cause of inflation, but it isn't actually inflation. The best indicator of rampant inflation can and will only ever be a well constructed, broad, weighted and representative goods basket, which is not "T2/officer/faction" items. My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance

Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:06:00 - [151] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52 Originally by: infraX The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not. So, are you arguing there ISN'T much more ISK in the game "per capita" as there was, say 1 year ago ? That's inflation, by definition itself. Inflation is purchasing power. Purchasing power of isk has not changed as far as tech 1 items go. Quote: Having people that KEEP buying "monopolistic-priced" products to a point where the monopol-holders CAN NOT EVEN MATCH the demand (in spite of insane prices) only due to their own production-line limitations, that's another SIGN of inflation. Increasing demand and static supply means increasing prices. That has nothing to do with inflation, it has to do with the availability of products. Quote: Right now, insurance payouts create money. Insurance premiums destroy money. Overall, more money gets created than destroyed REGARDLESS of insured ship (I sincerely doubt less than 30% of 100%-level insured ships blow up, and even uninsured ships still give you a 40% "generation"). All in all, insurance GENERATES much more ISK as it destroys. That may or may not be true, but it hasn't caused inflation. BSs costs the same as they did two years ago. Every tech1 ship and module that is produceable has reached a steady equilibrium. Quote: It doesn't help AT ALL that people that quit playing usually GIVE their ISK away to friends or their corps. In most other games it is true that people tend to leave alot of assets on their characters when they quit. In EVE this does not happen as much so there is less dead isk. This is somewhat problematic, but it hasn't caused inflation probably because of macro miners. Quote: So yeah, inflation (as in ISK/capita ratio) is on the loose, and T2/officer/faction prices are the best INDICATOR of just how rampant the inflation really IS. Thats like saying that the price of a limited production line ferrari is the best indication of the purchasing power of the dollar. The price of goods of limited availability is determined by the availability relative to demand not the purchasing power of isk. You measure inflation by a common basket of goods. In EVE since everything common is based on minerals, you measure inflation by looking at minerals and their dervitative tech 1 products. The Enemy's Gate is Down
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:08:00 - [152] beat you My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:10:00 - [153] Originally by: zeKzn beat you I'm tired no fair. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:10:00 - [154] Originally by: Baun To put it succinctly, people should not conflate the question of supply with the question of BPO allocation. That's just silly, supply has nigh everything to do with allocation, and vice versa. If there are builders, but no BPO's, production doesn't occur. Random allocation of necessary materials ensures only that a few individuals will receive the blessings of CCP to influence the player economy. BPO distribution should not be decided by lottery or chance (or Ouiji boards at CCP). They shouldn't be dribbled into the economy to keep prices consistent (and by extension, high). BPO distribution should be decided by the willingness of the userbase to embrace production of t2 items (ie, they should be available to all, at cost, just as t1 BPO's are now). Then, cost of t2 items in the market is determined by the supply of components for the BPO's (just as t1 items are now), not by the capricious whims of the few holders of the key to production. I suppose wait-n-see is a prudent course to take, but from here it looks like much ado about nothing. - Trem
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:11:00 - [155] My my do we have to go over the inflation thing again ? LOOK IN WIKIPEDIA Quoting some of the relevant parts next. In mainstream economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices, as measured against some baseline of purchasing power. The prevailing view in mainstream economics is that inflation is caused by the interaction of the supply of money with output and interest rates. In general, mainstream economists divide into two camps: those who believe that monetary effects dominate all others in setting the rate of inflation, or broadly speaking, monetarists, and those who believe that the interaction of money, interest and output dominate over other effects. Measures of inflation Examples of common measures of inflation include: consumer price indexes (CPIs) which measure the price of a selection of goods purchased by a "typical consumer". producer price indexes (PPIs) which measure the price received by a producer. This differs from the CPI in that price subsidation, profits, and taxes may cause the amount received by the producer to differ from what the consumer paid. There is also typically a delay between an increase in the PPI and any resulting increase in the CPI. Producer price inflation measures the pressure being put on producers by the costs of their raw materials. This could be "passed on" as consumer inflation, or it could be absorbed by profits, or offset by increasing productivity. wholesale price indexes which measure the change in price of a selection of goods at wholesale, prior to retail mark ups and sales taxes. These are very similar to the Producer Price Indexes. commodity price indexes which measure the change in price of a selection of commodities. In the present commodity price indexes are weighted by the relative importance of the components to the "all in" cost of an employee. Inflation measures are often modified over time, either for the relative weight of goods in the basket, or in the way in which goods from the present are compared with goods from the past. This includes hedonic adjustments and "reweighting" as well as using chained measures of inflation. As with many economic numbers, inflation numbers are often seasonally adjusted in order to differentiate expected cyclical cost increases, versus changes in the economy. Inflation numbers are averaged or otherwise subjected to statistical techniques in order to remove statistical noise and volatility of individual prices. Finally, when looking at inflation, economic institutions sometimes only look at subsets or "special indexes". One common set is inflation ex-food and energy, which is often called "core inflation". In classical political economy, inflation referred to the money supply itself: inflation meant increasing the money supply, while deflation meant decreasing it. A few schools of economic thought, generally described as libertarian or ultra-conservative, still retain this usage. In mainstream economic terms these would be referred to as expansionary and contractionary monetary policies. One of the most influential schools of economic thinking rests on a quantity theory of money, namely monetarism. Monetarists assert that empirical study of monetary history shows that "inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon". Modern mainstream central bank practice until recently adhered closely to this concept. These economists derive this belief from what is known as the Quantity Theory of Money. The Quantity Theory of Money, simply stated is that the total amount of spending in an economy is primarily determined by the total amount of money in existence. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:17:00 - [156] Originally by: Trem Sinval Originally by: Baun To put it succinctly, people should not conflate the question of supply with the question of BPO allocation. That's just silly, supply has nigh everything to do with allocation, and vice versa. If there are builders, but no BPO's, production doesn't occur. Random allocation of necessary materials ensures only that a few individuals will receive the blessings of CCP to influence the player economy. It also assures that no one has an appeciably (or dare I say unfairly) greater chance to recieve BPOs then anyone else. Supply has nothing to do with BPO allocation because CCP has reseeded BPOs that are in dead accounts. They have assured that the number of BPOs that were seeded are the number being used. Supply is solely based on the number of BPOS seeded and has nothing to do with how they were handed out. Quote: BPO distribution should not be decided by lottery or chance (or Ouiji boards at CCP). They shouldn't be dribbled into the economy to keep prices consistent (and by extension, high). BPO distribution should be decided by the willingness of the userbase to embrace production of t2 items (ie, they should be available to all, at cost, just as t1 BPO's are now). That might have been possible 2+ years ago. Now it is not. People have sunk tons of money into T2 BPOs because of their scarcity. People whine about T2 because of the supply related prices. The solution to this is for CCP to look at the market and manage the supply by seeding more BPOs. At this point, it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with how the BPOs are seeded since they are not biasing the distribution toward any priveleged group. Quote: Then, cost of t2 items in the market is determined by the supply of components for the BPO's (just as t1 items are now), not by the capricious whims of the few holders of the key to production. T2, for whatever reason, was designed as a paradigm shift as far as T1 was concerned. The money in T1 was in mining for the minerals not in building what everyone else could build. Now the money is in the building. Producing components is like mining and preserves some of its value because it is alot more labor intensive. I suppose wait-n-see is a prudent course to take, but from here it looks like much ado about nothing. - Trem The Enemy's Gate is Down
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:20:00 - [157] Edited by: Akita T on 23/10/2006 06:22:23 Originally by: Baun Thats like saying that the price of a limited production line ferrari is the best indication of the purchasing power of the dollar. The price of goods of limited availability is determined by the availability relative to demand not the purchasing power of isk. You measure inflation by a common basket of goods. In EVE since everything common is based on minerals, you measure inflation by looking at minerals and their dervitative tech 1 products. Ha, this is where you're slightly wrong. In the end, the price of MASS-PRODUCED TOP OF THE LINE goods IS TIED CLOSELY to the purchasing power of a currency ! The common REPRESENTATIVE basket of goods is HARDLY composed of minerals. If anything, the common basket of goods is represented by an assortment of mass-produced (T1/T2, no named/officer stuff) ships and modules that the regular player would LIKE TO BUY (and is able to use). Note here the use of "want/like" as opposed to "does". The difference is between demand (want/like) and supply. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:21:00 - [158] Originally by: Akita T Lots of misunderstood economic theory Inflation is the decrease in purchasing power of currency. If there were substantial inflation in EVE then EVERYTHING would cost more. As it stands now the only things that ever increase over the long term are those things for which there is static supply and increasing demand. To put it as simply as possible, if the basis for price increases is the changing of the intersection of supply and demand and not the increasing amount of money, then there is no inflation. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:28:00 - [159] Edited by: Baun on 23/10/2006 06:31:09 Edited by: Baun on 23/10/2006 06:29:38 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Baun Thats like saying that the price of a limited production line ferrari is the best indication of the purchasing power of the dollar. The price of goods of limited availability is determined by the availability relative to demand not the purchasing power of isk. You measure inflation by a common basket of goods. In EVE since everything common is based on minerals, you measure inflation by looking at minerals and their dervitative tech 1 products. Ha, this is where you're slightly wrong. In the end, the price of MASS-PRODUCED TOP OF THE LINE goods IS TIED CLOSELY to the purchasing power of a currency ! Inflation is measured IRL by the price of things like bread, milk, water etc, not by brand items much less items of inelastic supply like Porsche GT1s and 400 foot Yachts. Quote: The common REPRESENTATIVE basket of goods is HARDLY composed of minerals. If anything, the common basket of goods is represented by an assortment of ships and modules that the regular player would LIKE TO BUY. What makes a good "common" is that its supply is not inelastic. Quote: Note here the use of "want/like" as opposed to "does". The difference is between demand (want/like) and supply. You are trying to make your argument fit the definition instead of actually understand what you are arguing about. If there were actually inflation then minerals prices would be higher. Since mineral prices are not higher there is no inflation. When you start paying 200mil for a megathron then there is either a supply issue with the minerals or inflation. If you recall this is exactly what happened in castor. The belt rats went nuts, very few people figured out how to mine in 0.0 for weeks, supply of high end minerals dried up and BS prices sky rocketed. There was no inflation, however, because this had nothing to do with the supply of money. It had to do with the availability of the goods. You are paying 200mil for an ishtar because there is a supply issue with the production of the ishtar. If inflation were responsible for high t2 prices then you would also see high t1 prices. Since you don't see high t1 prices, inflation is obviously not responsible for high t2 prices. Are you starting to get it now? The Enemy's Gate is Down
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:30:00 - [160] Originally by: Baun If there were substantial inflation in EVE then EVERYTHING would cost more. As it stands now the only things that ever increase over the long term are those things for which there is static supply and increasing demand. To put it as simply as possible, if the basis for price increases is the changing of the intersection of supply and demand and not the increasing amount of money, then there is no inflation. But you're missing the point completely. Point being, while you (on one side) consider that inflation is indeed a decrease in purchasing power of goods, you fail to realise that supply-and-demand dictated levels of prices FOR "USUAL" GOODS (where "usual" is defined as "whatever you see people flying/fitting in these days usually"), REGARDLESS of absolute value for supply OR demand itself, IS actually the TRUE measure of inflation ! So on one side you state that T1 ship/module prices have stayed the same in a long time, but fail to connect the fact that T1 ship/modules are NO LONGER the "norm" nowadays, but mostly regarded as "newbie stuff". In order to get a sense of inflation, you have to look at the AVERAGE player and what the AVERAGE player's ship+fitting costs. As the average level of the player nowadays almost certainly includes T2 weapon systems and at least some modules, and a low, yet significant amount of T2 ships, HOW CAN YOU CLAIM YOU DO NOT SEE INFLATION WITH THE NAKED EYE ? __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:34:00 - [161] If anything, the fact that T1 stuff is NOT GOING DOWN in price is a sign of inflation ! __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:38:00 - [162] Originally by: Akita T But you're missing the point completely. Sadly, its you that is missing the point. This is evidenced rather clearly by the fact that you are complaining about supply of T2 goods while simultaneously claiming inflation is causing the price increase. You simply have no idea what inflation means. Quote: Point being, while you (on one side) consider that inflation is indeed a decrease in purchasing power of goods, you fail to realise that supply-and-demand dictated levels of prices FOR "USUAL" GOODS (where "usual" is defined as "whatever you see people flying/fitting in these days usually"), REGARDLESS of absolute value for supply OR demand itself, IS actually the TRUE measure of inflation ! What? Inflation is supposed to measure the devaluation of currency by using a price index of goods for which there is very little change in supply and demand. How exactly do T2 goods with inelastic supply and continuously increasing demands fall into that category? Quote: So on one side you state that T1 ship/module prices have stayed the same in a long time, but fail to connect the fact that T1 ship/modules are NO LONGER the "norm" nowadays, but mostly regarded as "newbie stuff". The reason T2 prices have gone up is because they have become more and more used. You are conflating "common" in an economic sense with "common" in a colloquial sense. A common economic good is something of steady supply and steady demand. The purchasing power of people's isk relative to T2 goods has decreased because there is increase demand which increases the price. The price increases are not paralleled by global price increases so there is no inflation. Quote: In order to get a sense of inflation, you have to look at the AVERAGE player and what the AVERAGE player's ship+fitting costs. If we were trying to establish a formula for adjusting wages to the cost of living you might be on point, but we are not. We are trying to establish whether there is actually a global decrease in the purchasing power of goods relative to static market conditions. There isn't Quote: HOW CAN YOU CLAIM YOU DO NOT SEE INFLATION WITH THE NAKED EYE ? Because as it stands now the only goods that are increasing in price are those with static supply and increasing demand. The prices of those goods is driven by market force not by the valuation of currency. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:40:00 - [163] You posted before my last post&edit, but started writing before. Read one post above for clarification. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 06:42:00 - [164] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 23/10/2006 06:37:02 Know why "common good" prices don't go up in price IN SPITE of rampant inflation ? FRACKING SUBSIDIES, THAT'S WHY ! And you know what form subsidies are present in EVE ? That's right, INSURANCE PAYOUTS. If anything, the fact that T1 stuff is NOT GOING DOWN in price is a clear sign of inflation ! uhh have you gone off the deep end? The fact that there is no deflation is a sign of inflation? Your argument is that because people are, in your mind, being given free isk, the fact that prices aren't going up is a sign that the value of currency is going down? What the **** are you smoking? The Enemy's Gate is Down
Kaden Seer	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:00:00 - [165] Talk about expensive boutique shopping
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:02:00 - [166] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 23/10/2006 06:37:02 Know why "common good" prices don't go up in price IN SPITE of rampant inflation ? FRACKING SUBSIDIES, THAT'S WHY ! And you know what form subsidies are present in EVE ? That's right, INSURANCE PAYOUTS. If anything, the fact that T1 stuff is NOT GOING DOWN in price is a clear sign of inflation ! uhh have you gone off the deep end? The fact that there is no deflation is a sign of inflation? Your argument is that because people are, in your mind, being given free isk, the fact that prices aren't going up is a sign that the value of currency is going down? What the **** are you smoking? SIGH here we go. Step by step. Real-life, USA. Inflation exists, quite a significant one. Reasons, not important. Price of "common goods" remains (mostly) the same. Why ? Subsidies. For farming and whatnot. Price of everything else ? Increasing. Faster, slower, sometimes even decreasing if a production breakthrough is achieved, but generally on the rise. There, textbook case of inflation. Prices for top tier items slowly increase, outdated items might get cheaper, subsidized items remain the same. In EVE now. MINERALS are subsidized. INDIRECTLY. Base subsidy value (for minerals turned into ships) is around 40%. Max subsidy value is 70% (100%-30% for premium insurance). The fact you CAN NOT AFFORD to sell a ship under 70% of insurance cost because somebody WOULD buy your stuff, insure it, then blow it up to MAKE A PROFIT is LIMITING the minimum value of any T1 ship in existance. As I was saying, subsidies. For ships directly, for minerals indirectly. So basically, EVE has a subsidized economy. HEAVILY subsidized, for most T1 stuff. The only thing that is RELEVANT for the inflation index is TOP TIER, non-insurable ships and items. Have their prices gone UP or DOWN ? Now tell me again there is no inflation in EVE with a straight face. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:11:00 - [167] Common misunderstandins I have seen in this thread: 1) releasing lot's of tech2 BPO will crash the market because anyone will be able to produce stuff 2) T2 owners worked hard for their BPOs 3) invention will solve all problems Ad. 1: look at tech1 market. It's actually example of healthy market. You have areas with high supply and low prices (Jita) and areas with low supply but high demand (low sec and 0.0). It allows for balancing risk and reward, allows for trading, allows new players to enter producing business. Currently there is no point to run lvl1, lvl2 or lvl3 R&D agents. If you don't have five lvl4 agents running for few months you have almost no chance to get low value tech2 BPO (ammo) and NO CHANCE AT ALL to get hac BPO. You can't enter game as a young producer because there are no tech2 BPC on market. Finally there is no risk at all coming from tech2 production because you have no competition. It's all reward. Ad. 2: not true. Most of high valuable BPOs (cloak, cap recharger, hacs) were seeded ages ago when number of players were relatively low and not too much competitive. Some people probably got BPO after month or so of running R&D agents. After that those BPOs were not seeded at all. Ad. 3: I thought so but I am not so sure now. Devs stated that chances to get BPC will be very small. I think those chances should be around 30%-50% area (depending on skills). Good thing about invention is it will allow to enter market for new players with lvl1 R&D agents. It should be enough R&D points to manufacture some low cost-high value items like cloaks and cap rechargers. Disclaimer: I am talking mostly about high value BPOs. Many of tech2 BPO are totally crap (micro smartbomb, javelin railgun ammo, high damage small missiles, plates etc.) because of balancing issues.
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:23:00 - [168] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 what they need to do is simply make it so that anyone who wants to get one can get one, caveat all of them are like 20 run limited bpo and people can constantly get as many as they want, then get rid of all the unlimited runs. This way active producers can keep a supply going, and people will move to where the market prices are highest to keep the prices level. Adding a few more wont change anything, the problem is the fact the system right now has limited bpos meaning either you got lucky and got one or you never getting one IE monopoly time. word
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 07:49:00 - [169] Oh, and you now the actually hillarious part of all of this ? The alleged "MACRO MINER CAUSED INFLATION" issue. Frak no, if anything, macro-miners are heavily DECREASING mineral prices, contributing to a decrease in the "noticeable" inflation. If anything, people complaining about prices should be complaining about anything BUT the macro-miners. So why do people complain ? Because it drives their POTENTIAL revenue down, as they just can't compete (price-wise) with macro miners, at least for low-end minerals. __ So... let's have some SPECIFIC case studies. Prices for the 'Arbalest' line of launchers, for instance. Has the supply of those gone UP or DOWN ? Common sense says the supply should be going up. I haven't seen a significant decrease in the rate of 'Arbalest' drops from mission rats, and it's about the same for most other "named" weapon or module drops from missions. There ARE more and more people running missions in highsec. Highsec mission runners HARDLY ever lose their named weapons/modules. So have the prices gone DOWN ? Heck no, prices on those are COMPARABLE to T2 launchers of same caliber. And don't tell me getting a missile specialisation is HARD. Heck no, missile specialisations are the EASIEST weapon specialisations nowadays. In other words, supply going up, demand steady or even on the decrease. AND PRICES STILL REMAIN HIGH. How high ? Dictated by T2 prices, mostly. And prices on T2 items are dictated by AVAILABILITY of money. And WILLINGNESS to spend it. Translation: dictated by INFLATION. I rest my case. __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Hectaire Glade Amarr Forum Jockey	Posted - 2006.10.23 08:09:00 - [170] Real world protection against this type of monopoly is called a patent, patents expire after a period of time at which point everyone has the rights to produce. Let BPOs seeded via the lottery have a 12 month exclusivity period, after they have been seeded for 12 months, start spitting BPCs on a purchase-for-RP system. If you get a BPO via the lottery, bully for you, you have a finite period in which to capitalize the maximum revenue from it, after that period is over supply will naturally increase and prices will begin to fall. One thing to note though, people assuming that Invention is going to help the problem are not really taking into account the complexity of getting the components and having the skills to build these things, I am sceptical we will see very many manufacturing corps sustaining themselves through invented BPCs. TBH for the time involved its probably more profitable to go ratting.

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.23 08:15:00 - [171] Read above edit please ;) __ Always question everything. Including yourself. My skills (on BIG public site)
Nyack GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.10.23 09:09:00 - [172] well i havnt read all psot here so dont know if anyone have said this before.. i think invention is ccp way of taking back control on t2 market. now ccp has no control what so ever on the prices lets say for example hacs. teh players have totally monopoly on them ccp cant do much with out changing the stats on the bpos or releasign more bpos. however with invention ccp can say to them self "ook hacs should be around 70m to buy that is a fair price" they make it so that it costs around 20m for a bpo holder to make one. the invention bpc has a build cost of 50m all included teh actuall invention system. that leaves 20m in the luck generation of actually getting the bpc for ur invention attempt. now ccp can regulate what price they want on hacs by not changing the t2 bpo but rather changing ur chance of getting the bpc and teh ME of the bpc u get. so now we will have teh price ccp says they want us to pay for t2. like a goverment have control with taxes on stuff. so now people will prolly use invention on stuff worth it such as; cruisers, command ships, cloaks, large guns etc etc things that u can make good isk per unit. things like modules and ammo will prolly not be profitable for inventers cause teh bpc will be high in production time and material need. soo ooh why are there covert cloaks II and cruiser and command ships bpo for sale now again? lmao now oen thing that is goign tobe really ****** up in production is t2 rigs. material for rigs will only be possible from salvage of wrecks of pvp kills. add t2 bpo lottery to that and the big blobbing alliance will once again have teh upper hand..
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:27:00 - [173] shrug CCP do not want this game to be "fair" as you concieve it. It's more of an experiment in giving a few random people these huge opportunities to see what they do with it. This usually turns out to be funding alliances, some of which are very redistributive internally.
Roshan longshot Gallente Order of the Arrow	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:37:00 - [174] Originally by: bundy bear One person being able to win a 75 billion isk BPO out of pure luck is just rediculous. When will CCP finally wake up and release three or four times as many BPO's to fix the market. Only 75 billion? Where did you see that at? And what BPO are we talking about here? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 10:38:00 - [175] Ens must be laughing his ass off at this thread. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:15:00 - [176] Originally by: Danton Marcellus What is the problem here? I'd rather have it being down to luck than infernal grinding. It's a game, not work. Not everyone has time to earn those xx(x) milions to buy ship which they might lose in less than 10 seconds. Thats game, your words, so wheres fun from such game when you have to do so much work to buy this beautiful Vagabond? (for example), not mentioning that youve been training for it over a month at last. There is a problem, and excuse me but only idiots dont see it. From the other hand its CCP fault. They know situation, they planed it, they havent done nothing about it. Invention... well see. I would prefer to see more T2 BPOs on the market, especialy those 'expensive' ones.
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:38:00 - [177] I see more and more people getting angrier and angrier about the T2 situation. I see CCP doing nothing (no, invention will not have any significant effect, its not even 'inventing' its copying (badly, time consuming and expensive)). I can't help but fear that this will cause more and more people to leave EVE in disgust, actually, it seems people are already leaving EVE due to this, there have been a few posts here and quite a few more on EVE related forums around the web. I see Devs using and stating that they use T2 as 'the standard' to work new content by. I see the few getting insanely rich more through luck than judgement, huge reward but no risk. Isn't it about time T2 BPOs were seeded? high costs obviously, but available, T2 has been in game a long time now.
Otellus	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:59:00 - [178] The whole inflation/no inflation debate hinges on your basket of goods you determine inflation with. Its true that in the real world, ferraris are not part of the basket of goods that determines the consumper price index (CPI=a measurement of inflation). In Eve, if you limit the basket of goods to base mineral prices, then there is indeed no significant inflation. However, in my opinion, the price of base minerals is not a CPI, its a producer price index. Of course in a perfect market with ample supply, that should be the same as the CPI, but for the T2 market, that is not the case. So as far as T2 goods are part of the basket of goods to determine inflation with, there is indeed inflation. Now I doubt that this is inflation driven by monetary causes (i.e. excessive money supply). I think its inflation driven by a difference between supply and demand, though of course I can't prove it. The real question behind it is this: what does CCP want? Its obvious they want T2 goods to remain relatively 'rare', but do they also want tiny cartels or individual players gaining insane levels of wealth for no risk and virtually no work? If CCP wanted to keep T2 rare, but not keep the massive redistribution of wealth to BPO owners, they have a few options. They could make T2 BPOs buyable on the market, for a high price. Say 3b for a ceptor/AF BPO, 5b for a Dictor, 10b for a HAC BPO. Normally this would lead to a strong decrease in prices, and a big increase in numbers, which CCP probably don't want. However, if CCP at the same time decides to increase the material use of T2 BPOs by say a factor of 4, while keeping insurance payout at the current level, then prices would drop significantly, but the loss on insurance would still make T2 a bit rare. Alternatively, CCP could remove all insurance on T2 ships to keep it rare. Advantage would be that T2 ships would still be relatively rare, but the advantage of BPO holding individuals/corps over others would be removed. In this example with 4 times the manufacturing cost, I'd estimate for example a wolf to still cost 8-10m, and a HAC somewhere around 40-50m (quick glance, but I think I remember Wolf base price to be in the range of 2m currently, so with 4 times mineral costs, 8m). So while T2 prices would not drop hugely, and the individual player buying HACs would not be that much better off except for those T2 ships/items which have a monopoly or hugely inflated prices due to high demand, the advantage of current BPO holders would effectively be broken, and still keeping T2 ships relatively rare.
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:32:00 - [179] Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52 Originally by: infraX The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not. It is inflation because ISK is being devalued because the cost of t2 items keeps increasing. The cost is rising due to the laws of supply and demand. This means that you need a truckload of cash to buy something that used to be more affordable. Money IS being added to the game, and there is more and more ISK injected into the game every day. If that's not a good definition of inflation then I want some of what you are smoking. Read the replies here by others. They seem to realise what I'm talking about.
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:35:00 - [180] Edited by: infraX on 23/10/2006 13:35:38 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52 Originally by: infraX The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not. So, are you arguing there ISN'T much more ISK in the game "per capita" as there was, say 1 year ago ? That's inflation, by definition itself. Having people that KEEP buying "monopolistic-priced" products to a point where the monopol-holders CAN NOT EVEN MATCH the demand (in spite of insane prices) only due to their own production-line limitations, that's another SIGN of inflation. __ Right now, insurance payouts create money. Insurance premiums destroy money. Overall, more money gets created than destroyed REGARDLESS of insured ship (I sincerely doubt less than 30% of 100%-level insured ships blow up, and even uninsured ships still give you a 40% "generation"). All in all, insurance GENERATES much more ISK as it destroys. Mission rewards and bounties of any type create ISK. NPC goods freighter trading ALSO creates ISK in the end. The only (significant) ISK "sinks" are T1 BPO, POS structures, POS-related "consumables" and skillbook purchases from NPCs. Oh, and any market trade in NPC stations, we can't forget that one... would lose seing ALL items on the market rather than in escrow TBH... escrow has failed miserably. Insurance creates more as it destroys, agent offers sometimes destroy ISK, but not nearly enough. The amount of ISK ENTERING the game is in no way balanced with AMOUNT OF NEW PLAYERS. It doesn't help AT ALL that people that quit playing usually GIVE their ISK away to friends or their corps. So yeah, inflation (as in ISK/capita ratio) is on the loose, and T2/officer/faction prices are the best INDICATOR of just how rampant the inflation really IS. Mining, manufacturing and everything else just SHIFTS ISK around between players, by the way, in case you failed to realise that. \o/ - someone with a clue

Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:47:00 - [181] Originally by: Extreme Edited by: Extreme on 23/10/2006 02:05:54 Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents. The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now. In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Every thread has some stupid posts and some really stupid posts. This falls into the latter category. I'm sorry but how exactly did you make isk flow out of the game? Could you please also clarify why exactly the hulk bpo should stay rare? (Because I own it isnt an acceptable answer to no.2)
Extreme Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:59:00 - [182] Edited by: Extreme on 23/10/2006 14:02:20 Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Extreme Personally i own a Hulk, a Claymore and a Rocket Launcher II BPO handed out by my research agents. The only isk printer in game is the Hulk BPO and it should stay rare as it is now. In EOG's case we invested the 'Hulk generated isk' in large isk costing projects which makes isk 'flow' out of game. Every thread has some stupid posts and some really stupid posts. This falls into the latter category. I'm sorry but how exactly did you make isk flow out of the game? Could you please also clarify why exactly the hulk bpo should stay rare? (Because I own it isnt an acceptable answer to no.2) What you consider to be 'stupid posts' and 'really stupid posts' can be the case for you if you are; 1. not smart enough 2. being 14 years old 3. did not read follow up posts Choose your own pick If you are questioning me without using 'stupid' and 'really stupid' then my answer will be; I clarified about this already in one of my follow up replies about it. I guess you've missed it. . .
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:18:00 - [183] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 23/10/2006 05:39:52 Originally by: infraX The supply of t2 items is far behind the demand, hence the hyperinflation. The demand is constantly growing while the supply has stayed the same. The next one who uses 'inflation' and 't2' in the same sentence gets a ban as far as i'm concerned. Inflation is a way to value money, and not a way to determine whether a monopoly is present or not. So, are you arguing there ISN'T much more ISK in the game "per capita" as there was, say 1 year ago ? That's inflation, by definition itself. Having people that KEEP buying "monopolistic-priced" products to a point where the monopol-holders CAN NOT EVEN MATCH the demand (in spite of insane prices) only due to their own production-line limitations, that's another SIGN of inflation. __ Right now, insurance payouts create money. Insurance premiums destroy money. Overall, more money gets created than destroyed REGARDLESS of insured ship (I sincerely doubt less than 30% of 100%-level insured ships blow up, and even uninsured ships still give you a 40% "generation"). All in all, insurance GENERATES much more ISK as it destroys. Mission rewards and bounties of any type create ISK. NPC goods freighter trading ALSO creates ISK in the end. The only (significant) ISK "sinks" are T1 BPO, POS structures, POS-related "consumables" and skillbook purchases from NPCs. Oh, and any market trade in NPC stations, we can't forget that one... would lose seing ALL items on the market rather than in escrow TBH... escrow has failed miserably. Insurance creates more as it destroys, agent offers sometimes destroy ISK, but not nearly enough. The amount of ISK ENTERING the game is in no way balanced with AMOUNT OF NEW PLAYERS. It doesn't help AT ALL that people that quit playing usually GIVE their ISK away to friends or their corps. So yeah, inflation (as in ISK/capita ratio) is on the loose, and T2/officer/faction prices are the best INDICATOR of just how rampant the inflation really IS. Mining, manufacturing and everything else just SHIFTS ISK around between players, by the way, in case you failed to realise that. First ask yourself why the inflation is so selective. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:29:00 - [184] Originally by: Reiisha First ask yourself why the inflation is so selective. He gets it. Inflation cannot be selective. "Selective inflation" as people are thinking is just demand driven price inrease. If there were inflation everything would be more expensive. There is not inflation, there are supply problems. The Enemy's Gate is Down
FireAnt	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:29:00 - [185] if you look at the money people used to make doing pve when the hacs came out i would say the average player makes 3 times as much as a player back then. i mean bounties are much high now than 2 to 3 years ago. i mean 30 years ago you could buy a brand new car for 7000 dollars. now the same type car cost 45000 dollars. same goes for the amount that people made, people make 35k a year now where as they only made 5k 30 years ago. same thing is happening in eve. you have to remember its not like he got that bpo from his agent and sold it to say the amarr navy and they gave him 75billion. he sold it to people to valued that bpo at 75billion. the players of eve control the market. what i think is worth 75 billion might not be what you think is 75billion. dont like the price, dont buy the item! a living breathing economy at its best.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:48:00 - [186] Originally by: Extreme I clarified about this already in one of my follow up replies about it. I guess you've missed it. Yup your right. I'm a bellend for not realising outposts take ISK out of the game by taking docking and repair and repro fees from all and sundry who can dock You forgot to answer question 2, though I doubt you can come up with an answer that wont leave most sane people rolling around on the floor laughing their heads off.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:28:00 - [187] Originally by: Matori Kar I see more and more people getting angrier and angrier about the T2 situation. Ya because they speak about it, thoses that think it's ok won't read these threads. Quote: I see CCP doing nothing (no, invention will not have any significant effect, its not even 'inventing' its copying (badly, time consuming and expensive)). Why would they change what is perfect? Only lack was a player regulated max price which invention should fix. Quote: I can't help but fear that this will cause more and more people to leave EVE in disgust, actually, it seems people are already leaving EVE due to this, there have been a few posts here and quite a few more on EVE related forums around the web. Well, if they cannot accept the fact that some items are pricey on the market and that they cannot grind them, they might leave in peace... Quote: I see Devs using and stating that they use T2 as 'the standard' to work new content by. Lottery is great when you don't want to give favor to a group in particular. Quote: I see the few getting insanely rich more through luck than judgement, huge reward but no risk. False, there is more people getting very rich with named module like the Core and Corpum one. It drop in the can and you can sell for 700 mil. No work, they would have killed that rat anyway! Quote: Isn't it about time T2 BPOs were seeded? high costs obviously, but available, T2 has been in game a long time now. No, not seeded but they could open the flood gates thru the lottery, many of each. To reset everyone to zero so I get my first tech 3 bpo.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:59:00 - [188] Edited by: Baun on 23/10/2006 17:03:32 Originally by: FireAnt if you look at the money people used to make doing pve when the hacs came out i would say the average player makes 3 times as much as a player back then. i mean bounties are much high now than 2 to 3 years ago. i mean 30 years ago you could buy a brand new car for 7000 dollars. now the same type car cost 45000 dollars. same goes for the amount that people made, people make 35k a year now where as they only made 5k 30 years ago. same thing is happening in eve. People ARE making more money but this hasn't changed the prices of everything. T1 prices are steady. T2 prices are demand driven. Its possible that demand wouldn't be so high at given prices if people were not so wealthy, but that does not mean that there is inflation because it is not a global effect. Inflation the increase in prices without any corresponding change in supply and demand. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:08:00 - [189] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Reiisha First ask yourself why the inflation is so selective. He gets it. Inflation cannot be selective. "Selective inflation" as people are thinking is just demand driven price inrease. If there were inflation everything would be more expensive. There is not inflation, there are supply problems. Thank god, there are still people in here who look beyond the length of their own nose :) EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:25:00 - [190] Edited by: infraX on 23/10/2006 17:25:45 The price of T1 items won't ever get out of control as long as they are so easy to build and raw materials so readily available. T1 manufacturing is ridiculous because it takes hardly any skills to be able make absolutely anything in game. You can't compare T1 and T2 markets because they are not the same thing. By the way, is YOUR signature suitable for a teen audience? Just that it looks a bit manga pron-esque to me. Signautre removed - not suitable for a teen audience - Serathu ([email protected]) fixed:

Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:38:00 - [191] Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 23/10/2006 17:39:14 "Limited supply does not create a monopoly." Sure it does. It takes a bit longer for the price to find its way where all the limited holders end up not competing vs each other but yes it creates a monopoloy of sorts. Limited supply ( the limit being on who can create the supply ) means noone else can enter the production market and under cut. We just saw this exact concept working in real life in the USA. Gas prices literally blew up and there was no REAL reason for it, but because noone else can create gasoline in the USA ( just like with the t2 bpo issue except it is refineries in the USA and the fact noone else can make a new refinery to create gas only those who own the current refineries can make gas ), sure oil moved up in price but this again was due to the greed from the oil/gas companies. Huge public pressure insued as oil companies reported record breaking profits ( due to them increasing the price far more than needed to cover the rising price of oil ), as well as the election coming up ended up pressure in oil companies into dropping thier prices.... but there is still no reason for gas to not be exactly where it started before Katrina, except the fact noone can compete to drive the prices down, and the 5 or so companies who own refineries know it. The problem in eve is the fact only a very few people can make these very useful t2 items, not the actual amount of these items ( which also does contribute as well ), either way the answer is creating a change just like I drew out, this is a game noone should get an unlimited money printing machine, you should have to go out and play to generate a new bpo after your's runs out, IE limited run bpos only. Either way I am shocked how slow CCP has been to react to this as the economy is severely broken much along the same way the broken complex spawns broke the economy and CCP emergency fixed that... /boggle
Lord Dynastron	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:53:00 - [192] The problem as I see it with T2 stuff is that supply and demand issues are wreaking havoc with prices (like this hasn't been stated 1000 times aleardy ). We have oligopolies (there are NO monopolies in eve, price fixing oligopolies yes, monopolies no) that cannot produce enough to even have to deal with competing with one another. You list an item (lets take a Hulk for example) at a reasonable price, and it is sold immediately...but not to a miner... it is purchased by a reseller who then re-lists at a lower price. And why does this all work for the reseller? Well,, they donÆt call it the LAW of supply and demand for nothing. It is LAW that as demand increases and supply remains constant, price increases. There is no bickering, bleating, or otherwise hem-hawing this,, it is the law. Supply or demand has to change for price to be lowered. Fact: If people would not buy HACs at 120m the price would come down to where people would start buying them. So, to quote another poster,, it is possible it is the consumers fault prices are so hi. There is one other issue here tho that narrows down where the supply issue arises... and that is production limitations... HAC owners are so limited in the number of ships they can make that at no point can their own greed get the better of them. The BPO build time protects them from themselves. Let me explain. Lets say a HAC producer could make 200 HACs a day instead of 1. What would happen? One of two things, the HAC producer would have to lower prices to compete against other HAC'ers or do a little price fixin'. 1 ship a day? Geesh,,, a recipe for high prices. I digress..... My solution... Make invention really work well. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say you can buy a BPO with RP's. Now for a HAC we are talking 2 years worth of RP's across 3-5 agents,,, but still,, you can buy one with your RP's. Wasn't CCP going to do this at one point? I thought so. And what ever happend to auctioning off T2BPOs for RP's... one or two a year? more?
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:25:00 - [193] Originally by: Lord Dynastron The problem as I see it with T2 stuff is that supply and demand issues are wreaking havoc with prices (like this hasn't been stated 1000 times aleardy ). We have oligopolies (there are NO monopolies in eve, price fixing oligopolies yes, monopolies no) that cannot produce enough to even have to deal with competing with one another. You list an item (lets take a Hulk for example) at a reasonable price, and it is sold immediately...but not to a miner... it is purchased by a reseller who then re-lists at a lower price. I think you mean he relists at a higher price, not lower. Originally by: Lord Dynastron And why does this all work for the reseller? Well,, they donÆt call it the LAW of supply and demand for nothing. It is LAW that as demand increases and supply remains constant, price increases. There is no bickering, bleating, or otherwise hem-hawing this,, it is the law. Supply or demand has to change for price to be lowered. Fact: If people would not buy HACs at 120m the price would come down to where people would start buying them. So, to quote another poster,, it is possible it is the consumers fault prices are so hi. The problem is, the suppliers have so much money and probably don't need to spend it as fast as they make it that it doesn't matter if these ships aren't selling. They WILL sell eventually and they are manufactured slo slowly anyway - so who cares? Originally by: Lord Dynastron There is one other issue here tho that narrows down where the supply issue arises... and that is production limitations... HAC owners are so limited in the number of ships they can make that at no point can their own greed get the better of them. The BPO build time protects them from themselves. Let me explain. Lets say a HAC producer could make 200 HACs a day instead of 1. What would happen? One of two things, the HAC producer would have to lower prices to compete against other HAC'ers or do a little price fixin'. 1 ship a day? Geesh,,, a recipe for high prices. If they were smart about it, they would form a cartel. That is, find out who the other suppliers are and agree to fix the price ridiculously high and keep it there. The ships would stull sell even with an artificial lack of supply because nobody else can enter the market. This is why T2 is so fubar because in real life, price fixing and cartel and monopolies/oligopolies are illegal in most countries and there are generally not articial barriers to entry like this in the real world. Originally by: Lord Dynastron I digress..... My solution... Make invention really work well. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say you can buy a BPO with RP's. Now for a HAC we are talking 2 years worth of RP's across 3-5 agents,,, but still,, you can buy one with your RP's. Wasn't CCP going to do this at one point? I thought so. And what ever happend to auctioning off T2BPOs for RP's... one or two a year? more? I don't see the problem with this. The BPO's would be too expensive for most to obtain, but if lots more were ingame, supply would increase and prices would drop and stabalise. T2 wouldn't become the free for all that T1 is. BPO lottery winners have had their time in the sun and are already rich beyond belief and I think it's time to end Signautre removed - not suitable for a teen audience - Serathu ([email protected]) fixed:
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:33:00 - [194] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Not all T2 BPOs make ISKs and stop complaining so much. I do prefer CCP not seed any more T2 BPOs but limited T2 BPCs from player side. Right, my Barrage M doesn't make isk. Always forget that I have it, still lying on the same station, where I got it half a year ago. ME 0, PE 0.
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:04:00 - [195] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: The Enslaver There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. CCP are damned if they do, damned if they don't, because if some semi-proportional effort was involved in qualifying for a T2 BPO award, people would be screaming about the devs incentivising grind. . They dont need to make it into a grind. They could make it into any number of things to acquire the BPO. Example: Pre-Stage - Grinding faction for agent Stage 1 - Speak to Agent. Stage 2 - Find and kill super rare npc(s) in empire complexes (rare) - 0.0 complexes (less rare) for a component(s) for the prototype. Stage 3 - Chance to create a BPO requiring high level production skills and lots of time. OFC thats just an example I made up in 2 minutes. But its better then Pre-Stage - Grinding faction for agent Stage 1 - talk to agent Stage 2 - Wait for 0 - 3 years. The Privateering Life
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 03:30:00 - [196] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: The Enslaver There is no problem with that, the problem is in that the item is given out for free, for hardly any effort. CCP are damned if they do, damned if they don't, because if some semi-proportional effort was involved in qualifying for a T2 BPO award, people would be screaming about the devs incentivising grind. They dont need to make it into a grind. They could make it into any number of things to acquire the BPO. Example: Pre-Stage - Grinding faction for agent Stage 1 - Speak to Agent. Stage 2 - Find and kill super rare npc(s) in empire complexes (rare) - 0.0 complexes (less rare) for a component(s) for the prototype. Stage 3 - Installation of data analysis module on ships, which produce a Data Chit after a successful pvp kill detailing improvements to performance etc which go towards the production of the BPO. Stage 4 - Chance to create a BPO requiring high level production skills and lots of time. This way you have PvP, Research, NPCing, Mining and Production adding towards BPO production rather then just grinding and 1 visit to an agent. OFC thats just an example I made up in 2 minutes. But its better then Pre-Stage - Grinding faction for agent Stage 1 - talk to agent Stage 2 - Wait for 0 - 3 years. QFT. The universe is going to implode now though because Infinity Ziona and I agree on something! On another note: Only ~10 more hours till we can test Invention. I predict an "Invention Sucks" thread later today.
Pick Me	Posted - 2006.10.24 04:52:00 - [197] Originally by: Eilie On another note: Only ~10 more hours till we can test Invention. I predict an "Invention Sucks" thread later today. Indeed. But I expect more threads on the BM changes, as it would be... so unfair to touch them.
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:39:00 - [198] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: Eilie On another note: Only ~10 more hours till we can test Invention. I predict an "Invention Sucks" thread later today. Indeed. But I expect more threads on the BM changes, as it would be... so unfair to touch them. Don't worry, there will be whining for just about everything on the forums ... _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5


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