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Kindakrof Caldari Cruor Frater Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:05:00 - [31] AAahh i'm having an Acronym attack! --- --- --- my sig is pr0
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Death Kill So, it seams we have a new issue (finally) hitting the agenda. People paying rl money for getting ISK, as a person that has been playing games for more than 20 year and online games since 1999 I look at selling GTC for isk as BLATANT CHEATING. Totally agreed. Buying isk with rl cash is cheating, plain and simple. It's also incredibly lame. That doesn't stop people, of course, for some people "lame" is a lifestyle. Good thing these morons can't buy actual playing skills with that cash, so the 30mil character they bought from eBay and furnished with 500mil of cash via GTCs will be about as effective for them as a t1 cruiser on a 5mil sp real pilot. As a bright point, some of these morons post on Ships & Modules with threads like "I just bought an Eos and don't have any idea of how to fit it". Some amusement, at least. But yeah, these are the same people who use cheats in Counterstrike and other games. Why bother to play when you can cheat/buy your way around all that hard stuff? Zero respect for anyone buying isk.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Sha'ha'dem Edited by: Sha''ha''dem on 24/10/2006 08:48:20 From you we see the problem with playing video games for 20 years, you spent so much time in frivolous pursuits that you failed to actually acquire any really knowledge or understanding Amazing, please teach me more. Quote: Have you ever wondered why people cheat, what cheating is? Have you considered that everyone lives their lives a little differently, have differing wants and needs, have different obligations.. Im sorry, how is this rellevant AT ALL? Thats right, it isnt. Quote: SO allow me to enlighten you. Oh dear, here we go.... Quote: Firstly, let me start by debunking this idea of risk vs reward. What risk vs reward really refers to is the amount of reward some person needs for taking on some risk, and the amount of reward some person needs is based on their risk aversion which varies from person to person. Let that sink in for a bit, because it's pretty important. What we have here is an explanation for a lot of the behavior we see in Eve and within our daily lives, why some people are thrilled by heavy death penalties and why some people rob convenience stores. You are a mere poser, pretending to "know stuff" yet you make the incredible STUPID maistake of comparing RL with EVE Quote: As for isk buyers being able to have a cutting edge during pvp, this again can not be shown to be true. PVP is a time irrelevant process. What matters is the outcome, not the steps leading up to the outcome This has to be the most stupid thing I have read in a long time. You are under the assumption that isk buyers are n00bs buying their way into EVE, Im sure there is plenty of older players who buy isk. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Spanker	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:24:00 - [34] While buying isk for real life money is absolutely detestful, GTC selling is the lesser of two evils - at least anyone who chooses may do it, and legally at that. - Shpank
Spanker	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:27:00 - [35] Oh and another thing. I can assure you people sitting with 10 billion isk have absolutely no advantage over me with my 200M when we meet in 0.0 - Shpank
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:30:00 - [36] These kind of threads are the new rock and roll (remember you heard it here first)
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:49:00 - [37] The basic fundamental problem, is that no system will ever be truely fair. People are not all equal in their abilities and resources, because of this, no game can ever be made where all players truely are on equal footing.
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:50:00 - [38] I posted this before and will post again. I hate GTCs. While GTC is a beneficial part of eve for a hand of people that pay the game with time codes obtained through isk rather then a credit card.... the system is very imperfect and has turned into an exploit free area, or perhaps I should call it CHEATING.... Yes 5000 accounts benefit from GTCs. (made the number up, don't know the real one) Yes they are 5000 happy people. Yes, 50% of them could afford to pay with the credit card but prefer not to and Yes many of them did use a credit card to pay before this system was introduced. Yes it all seems to be fine Guess what, it is not. While helping all those people out, it is covering a "great evil" so te say. !!! It is abuse free !!! Joe has a very ncie bank account in real life. Joe is successfull in real life. Joe has a nice car. Joe plays mmos and wants to win like any other, Joe is a winner. Joe loves to PvP, combat is what makes Joe happy. So Joe trains skills and PvPs all he can. Well, like it is for all of us, PvP consumes ISK on both sides so in order to keep his habit Joe needs to mine or complex run in order to make ISK to buy SHIP to fit MODULES to go back and PVP. [yelloe]With GTC Joe buys 100 * 90days GTC and sells them for ISK. Joe then buys ships, setups them and is able to PVP all day long. He can come and fight with you for territory and lose a huge number of ships because he does not have to work for them. Having a infinite number of ships makes him a winner. Which is very good, but is only good for Joe,because Joe is an abuser and that is how he wins[/yellow]. CCP NEEDS TO STOP THE GTC ABUSERS Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:17:00 - [39] Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. Why shouldn't these people have right to have fun? They are paying for the Eve monthly service. They have the same right to have fun. But with 2 hours per week they cannot have fun, beceuse they would have to spennd the whoel 2 hours to make ISK and even so they would not be match to players than can play 20 hours per week. So no fun for them. By buying in RL the isk, they have condition to have fun! You think that is so much exploitable? Stop playing so much, get a job and buy ISK yourself! this iss oemhing thjat noway cane become too much imbalanced because is plain simple economy. With some tme the Dolar to isk ratio will stablize ina true value. Where the average paycheck of a costumer per hour will correspond withg teh average ISK a player canmake in game in 1 hour. The only issue with this system is that it bennefits more people form some counties where average income is much much higher. Like Japan and UK. For example.. 14$ is far more thna what I earn per hour here in Brasil. But quite sure is a mediocre per hour income in Japan.
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:28:00 - [40] Let me try and explain a little bit more why I consider the GTC sellers as cheaters. Suppose we are playing card, or rummy, or some other game. We are a couple of normal people having fun at a game. Competition keeps us alert and keeps us at it. All good untill now. Well, when the things get interesting, I reach in a drawer and bring in a second set of cards, or pieces or whatever. I will be the only one having access to these. In this point in the game we re no longer competiting. I am winning and there is nothing you can do about it, because I am using out of game objects to influence the in game environment. Many will bring in the argument taht when the other brings in the second deck of cards, I should also bring in a deck. The problem here is taht I may not have access to a second deck of cards. Maybe I also have access to a second deck of cards, but if we both bring in decks of cards..... Well, if we start bringing in decks of cards the game focus is severly changed and out of place or balance......... At this point the originla rules of the game, or the original environmnet of the game are no longer important. What has become important is which one of us can bring in more decks of cards. I can keep bringing in arguments. I can also explain them. I can and will if I have to, keep doing this kind of posts and posting in this kind of threads. Really hope for some official response to this matter. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:42:00 - [41] Edited by: Rina Shanu on 24/10/2006 10:44:53 Originally by: Polinus Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. During week days taht is exactly how much I play or even less. Originally by: Polinus Why shouldn't these people have right to have fun? They are paying for the Eve monthly service. They have the same right to have fun. They have the exact same rights as any other individual. Originally by: Polinus But with 2 hours per week they cannot have fun, beceuse they would have to spennd the whoel 2 hours to make ISK and even so they would not be match to players than can play 20 hours per week. So no fun for them. I can have fun and make a little bit of ISK without using GTC abuse. YOU could notice taht I am talking about abuse. Buying one GTC or two, maybe 3 or something a month and selling them.. let's see, 390day GTC is about 1.2 billion ISK. That should make your 2 hours a day fun eve time quite covered each month. 3 GTC are not so much and are not influencing the game at a rate at which we cannot compete fair and square. Originally by:* Polinus By buying in RL the isk, they have condition to have fun! You are wrong here, but this a different debate. I was talking about abuse. I will say this tho': It is the game environment and mechanics taht should make it fun, not the outside of game factors. Originally by: Polinus You think that is so much exploitable? Stop playing so much, get a job and buy ISK yourself! This is a personal confrontation or afront. I will not continue into this, but I will tell you that I am working individual, doing quite ok by the standards of my country and reagion and can afford GTC if I want to. I do not want to. Originally by: Polinus this iss oemhing thjat noway cane become too much imbalanced because is plain simple economy. With some tme the Dolar to isk ratio will stablize ina true value. Where the average paycheck of a costumer per hour will correspond withg teh average ISK a player canmake in game in 1 hour. I have two university degrees, one is informatics, the other is economics. I have worked in economical software testing for the US market and now am a coder for a insurance company. Do you think we should start an argument about the ratios of ISK/dollar, ISK/euro, or about the convertibily of ISK ? Perhaps we should bring in the european union or how the exchange market is regulated or should be regulated or some other things in here. Again, my point was abuse of GTC selling. I was and am refering to it. End of story. Official response and discusion please! Originally by: Polinus The only issue with this system is that it bennefits more people form some counties where average income is much much higher. Like Japan and UK. For example.. 14$ is far more thna what I earn per hour here in Brasil. But quite sure is a mediocre per hour income in Japan. Yes, your point is correct. I have to agree and am sure many others will. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:48:00 - [42] GTCs support CCP this is good - keeps the macro miners out of business or they just buy GTCs and CCP is forcing them to fund their game development this is the lesser of 2 evils
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:49:00 - [43] Oh Polinus, Say I have $7000 each month to spend on games. I decide to buy 500 GTC each month, the 90 days ones. Do you thin k such a person would care very very much about the isk/dollar ratio ? Some people have enough money in real life not to care about certain things. (wish I had that $7000 though...... well, I wouldn't spend them on GTC) Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:55:00 - [44] Originally by: Miss Overlord GTCs support CCP this is good - keeps the macro miners out of business or they just buy GTCs and CCP is forcing them to fund their game development this is the lesser of 2 evils From that exact, single and only point of view. Now lets not get int o macrominer discussion here please, because with ratios to ISK/dollar or not, the macro miners are still there and will be there... Want to know how to exterminate them ? Make a special GM division, pay them enough, so that them will stay all they long investigatin the macro petitions. And this will only make their number lower. As long as a ,acrominer can make more bucks in a month to cover for the electricity and internet connection + game fee ................ So CCP has an extra income from the GTC market. That is by all means very good. Well, with that extra income they keep adding to the game... that is even better. But how about regulating a little bit this particular market? Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Khetchi	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:22:00 - [45] I decided to look into this for this game as I have seen it prevailant in several other games. Personally I don't think Eve has much to worry about. Of the several sites I have looked at, the average price of ISK is about $15 for 100mil ISK. While this may seem like a lot of ISK for very little money, it's really only going to attract the newer players. In 0.0 mining or running high level complexes older players can make this amount of ISK quite easily without having to pay the equalivant of a month's subscription. So we are left with the newer players (those less than a couple of months old) who may think that the price is worth it for a little leg up to start with. We all know the temptation of this... I'm willing to bet that most older players have funneled ISK into one of their alts (I'm guilty of this, btw) for the simple reason of convience. The only way this causes problems is when emotes, bots, or whatever you wish to call them make it where it is difficult or impossible for the newer players to compete. In most games it is in the noobie areas where these exploits can make a steady stream of game-money with no risk whatsoever... In Eve this means 1.0 area mining. The good news is that in Eve 1.0 area mining takes so long for so little reward that the price of buying ISK on-line is going to stay relatively high... and if the icefields are moved out of highsec and into 0.4 or lower, the prices of online-ISK are going to skyrocket as every pirate and miner is going to spend every spare moment hunting down and killing emotes. (Risk vs reward.) Want to get rid of emotes in Eve? Here's an Idea... Let any player with a security rating of, say, +8 or higher attack in highsec space without CONCORDE interference. Have them still take a rating hit for instigating attacks, this will limit griefing as they will spend the majority of their time re-building their rating. Heck, you can eliminate griefers altogether by simply limiting the "free" targets they can attack to things larger than cruisers... after all, how many noobies have mining barges? Heck, that's just off the top of my head at 5:00 in the morning... I'm sure there are better ideas to limit or eliminate on-line selling of game money, after all there are games where nobody sells game money on-line.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:26:00 - [46] ok play devils advocate 500 GTC x 400m for each 200B ISK enough to buy a tech 2 BPO
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Miss Overlord ok play devils advocate 500 GTC x 400m for each 200B ISK enough to buy a tech 2 BPO Enough to buy more than 1 tech II BPO. Enough to afford the MC to kick your arse. (MC is used here due to notoriety) Enough to buy me huge fricking lot of apocs, armageddons, megathrons to just go out a blow up. Buhu, I'm the devils advocate. Why am I the devil's advocate when I say something like: "GTC is ok, GTC ABUSE is not ok" ? Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Reite Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:42:00 - [48] Sure it would be a problem if that had been the scale of it. If alot of people had bought many hundred billions of isks and taken over the T2 market and ****. I dont think this is the case though. The case is that its a small venture. The biggest seller ive seen sol 60x90day gtc or something, and i do believe that was for his alliance. When most people at most buy a couple of GTCs i dont really think theres a problem at all. The market havent really changed abit since CCP allowed GTC sales.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Rina Shanu Oh Polinus, Say I have $7000 each month to spend on games. I decide to buy 500 GTC each month, the 90 days ones. Do you thin k such a person would care very very much about the isk/dollar ratio ? Some people have enough money in real life not to care about certain things. (wish I had that $7000 though...... well, I wouldn't spend them on GTC) Justr limit the amount that can be bought per motht per person. Plain simple. Limit for example to $40 per month. Of course , the guy might have sseveral credit cards and accounts.. but then it will be a real minority. Yes some people have money to have anything they want. Live with it. Its capitalism!! The all loved capitalism... people that hates Soviet Union so much suddenly want a more equal world.. lol... And you might have a degree in economics. I have my master in Comp Science and DEVELOPED AN MMO that uses such a system and it works (ok the gamecompany bankrupted.. but for completely diffrent reasons)!! I did it on practice, and practice always beat theory.. sorry. It might be hard but is possible. The average value of RL to in game money stablize in real values. That as long as you sell it only in one country (was our case). But sicne I suppose majority of players are in US and "rich" europe, I think it might be treated as a single country.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:22:00 - [50] this post fun it is . GTC good it is , $$$ for CCP it does
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:22:00 - [51] Edited by: Rina Shanu on 24/10/2006 12:24:21 I am praying to the all mighty mods for my little post not to be /sniped/ :) For I am about to give you a link to another part of the forums. Where thou shall see the seller of GTC. Starting on 07 Sept 2006. We are today on the 24 October 2006. This person sold about 200 GTC in this period or so he states. The Link We can also spot people creating alt characters, just like the BM sellers, named "TimeCardsForU". Oh yet another proffesioanl GTC seller: Linky And I could start looking for more and start counting the nu,mber of GTC they sold based on the number of requests made in those threads, but I do not. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:25:00 - [52] I find the debate here fun to read - lets see if i've sumerasied this correctly Somone who has worked very hard in RL, can in turn be very sucsesfully in eve This leads to the following issues people are concerned about.. 1) Its not a level playing field, alot of the reasons people play mmo's is because their fun, and thier partly fun because of escapeisum, and part of that is people hate RL intrudeing. In sterotyical form player A is a banker - buy billions worth of isk, player B is a supermarket till worker, play ALOT but has fewer assests. Player A and B get into a fight - A can easily outlast B So from player A's point of veiw - he's just happy his hard work has lead to him having fun in game from player B's point of veiw - he's ****ed off because he cannot compete in resource terms - so its no longer for him a level playing feild This is largely i think what death kill and other refer to by "cheating", RL interfering with eve 2) people worry that GTC are distorting the in game economic system largey what people like shinra, and others are concered about. As for myself? well 1), i see no way to prevent this, shifting away from GTC's to just ebay is likley what will happen - reason only one partys (player B) consideres this cheating the other does not at least with GTC sales ccp can monitor what is going on, so what if i cannot compete with everyone, provided enough people stay at around my level thier will allways be something worth doing 2), now this is my big worry, gtc do have the potential to badly distort the economics - worse case - alliacne A has billions can buy up all the HAC's regardless of cost - and so i can never hope to afford one very hard one to do anything about though, as no isk is created using this - only moved around, but an issue i would advise ccp to montior closely - and fairly sure they do So are selling GTC's cheating - NO does excessive use have the potentialy to destroy my ability to have fun? - possible, time will tell - far to early yet, as we have only limited examples (oh and thanks sh...... for the philosophical despute, i'm in agreement, and it made a nice thing to read while eating lunch) All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:47:00 - [53] Edited by: Valan on 24/10/2006 12:48:17 I see the good side to GTCs although personally I hate them. But after reading some of this I suddenly realised I don't PVP in anything but tech1 anyway. If you can't win in tech1 then you need all the help you can get. But I think sellers should be registered and sales limited. One to control abuse and secondly to prevent people from taking it to the extreme where you can run an alliance, buy a Titan or a T2 BPO, purely funded by GTC sales. EDIT: The reason they're bad for EVE is that battles are won through attrition in EVE. If you can replace everything you lose in an instant then you're unbeatable. Hence its cheating, its esentially god mode. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Polinus Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. Then EVE isnt for you, or you would have to settle with less of EVE has to offer since EVE unlike World of Warcarft IS time consuming. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Valan Edited by: Valan on 24/10/2006 12:48:17 But I think sellers should be registered and sales limited. One to control abuse and secondly to prevent people from taking it to the extreme where you can run an alliance, buy a Titan or a T2 BPO, purely funded by GTC sales. agreed - as someone suggested earler perhaps limit people to purchasing only a few All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:19:00 - [56] - Most devs in CCP seem to detest GTC sales; those only exists as a less evil option to plain ebay-style ISK sales (and IMHO should be improved to be less usable in resale-for-euros). - Alas, since it is now part of the game rules kinda have to accept it if going to play here. Then again, logging off to save ship/pod is legal too; I may still detest both practices. - For those treating game objects as RL things, with normal exchange rules of the society: don't forget this is a game, to be played by rules of the game. See anything wrong in the following analogue: University with semi-famous football team figures that training takes too much time from their players' studies. So they force the football league to accept a rule where you can buy extra goals from the referee for a set price. Now, would it be still fun league to play in for the players? Or for the watchers? -Lasse
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Polinus Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. Then EVE isnt for you, or you would have to settle with less of EVE has to offer since EVE unlike World of Warcarft IS time consuming. My god.. you don't get it? It does not matter if Eve is for me. It matter if there are enough people of the other type to keep CCp working all by themselves? EVE already does not have a hugea array of subscribers, and cutting out 90% of world population won't help CCP.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Heikki - Most devs in CCP seem to detest GTC sales; those only exists as a less evil option to plain ebay-style ISK sales (and IMHO should be improved to be less usable in resale-for-euros). - Alas, since it is now part of the game rules kinda have to accept it if going to play here. Then again, logging off to save ship/pod is legal too; I may still detest both practices. - For those treating game objects as RL things, with normal exchange rules of the society: don't forget this is a game, to be played by rules of the game. See anything wrong in the following analogue: University with semi-famous football team figures that training takes too much time from their players' studies. So they force the football league to accept a rule where you can buy extra goals from the referee for a set price. Now, would it be still fun league to play in for the players? Or for the watchers? -Lasse Football is a competition.. eve is entretainment only. You wont receive any prozes if you win a battle (RL ones). Quite different stuff.
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:59:00 - [59] Originally by: Polinus Football is a competition.. eve is entretainment only. EvE is PVP Polinus, Player VS Player is COMPETITION. The prize is your own satisfaction, joy, thrill ..... Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:18:00 - [60] Originally by: Polinus My god.. you don't get it? It does not matter if Eve is for me. It matter if there are enough people of the other type to keep CCp working all by themselves? Yes my dear Polinus I do get it. EVE is a compeditive game, and you want people who can only play a few hours a week compete with people who play everyday. Quote: EVE already does not have a hugea array of subscribers, and cutting out 90% of world population won't help CCP. For a single sharded game EVE hs alot of subscribers, I would take single sharded 'only 100k subscribers' over sharded world of warcrap '10 billion subscribers' anyday! You want a game that you can play a few hours a week, world of warcraft is such a game. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L

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my sig is pr0