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The new rabble.People buying advantages for rl money (its all in here)

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Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:21:00 - [1] Edited by: Death Kill on 23/10/2006 16:20:49 So, it seams we have a new issue (finally) hitting the agenda. People paying rl money for getting ISK, as a person that has been playing games for more than 20 year and online games since 1999 I look at selling GTC for isk as BLATANT CHEATING. It can possibly break the game, because the game is based on certain principles such as risk vs reward/investment/time vs reward. Selling gtc undermines this. CCP, hear our plea! Yes GTC buys you more Ferraris but seriously its starting to hurt the community you claim to love. God knows how the alliance map would look like if there were no gtc. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Dhaeron Lhun	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:34:00 - [2] There is no real way to stop RMTs in MMORPGs nowadays. As someone who played FFXI through the rise of the gilsellers i actually have to compliment CCP for making a pretty RMT resistant game. And i think the GTC trading will actually hinder the RMT companies because there's a lot of normal players out as competition. If you want to see some really bad results of RMT check out the older servers of FFXI. They completely dominate the economy, from crafting to camping NMs. Anything that's doable with less than a dozen or so experienced players (RMTs still can't field that many) has been taken over by them. And every year after christmas and easter you have a burst of about 500% inflation.
Heldane Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:48:00 - [3] I applaud CCP's endeavour to get a handle on the EVE secondary market. There is no manner in which to completely dissolve the secondary ISK market as all previous popular MMOs have discovered be it gold, gil, adena or what have you. At least CCP recognizes the issue and has made steps to control it. I see this issue as being more of a jealousy problem than anything else.
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:51:00 - [4] Edited by: infraX on 23/10/2006 17:52:03 somebody already made a post about this issue here, no need for another one already. Signautre removed - not suitable for a teen audience - Serathu ([email protected]) fixed:
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:51:00 - [5] Hi, CCP doesnt care, thanks for your time. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
000Hunter000 Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:54:00 - [6] Sadly this is the case, any little rich kid(person) can sorta 'win eve' Just use daddies platinum CC and buy yourselves a char and a few bill isk and voila, and the sad part is that it's legal (use the platinum card to buy lots and lots of gtc's) Damn i wish i was filthy rich... err... nm that cheating is bad mkay? Banner will be updated shortly
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:56:00 - [7] Here is the twist on your narrow point of view. The new rabble, people buying in game advantages with real life time. They sit play for hours and hours and hours each day essentially overwhleming other players not by being better but by simply giving up everything else in life to sit at a keyboard. It offers far greater than rewards than even money can buy, as you develope a larger friend network to call on to zerg for you, as well as earns you more than enough money to play whatever ships items you want. It can possibly break a game, wait in fact it already breaks most games. It is the same crap different pile, the only difference is one person avoids work to sit in front of a computer lazily, while the other person goes to work, has a life and instead simply buys the stuff with the money they earned working instead of sitting at thier computer for hours... Oddly enough the ones sitting at thier computer for hours need the ones who can afford GTC's because they don;t work and can't pay to play without it.
Quin Tal Fort Knox Inc Expeto Libertas Foedus	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:59:00 - [8] Originally by: infraX Edited by: infraX on 23/10/2006 17:52:03 somebody already made a post about this issue here, no need for another one already. And the guy who made this one also replied this thread many times, then made this new one. lol
Heldane Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:08:00 - [9] The way I see it it is not tantamount to buying ISK with RL money. The alliance gets a kickback for referalls (smart move and legal), with this kickback they purchase TCs (again totally legal) they then sell these TCs to other players for ISK (once again entirely legal). It is not the same as someone logging into an ISK selling website and paying $20 for 500 million ISK or whatever. I'm sure any alliance with sufficient membership numbers could have a similar system installed so in essence the entire argument amounts to no more than whining as there is no real rule being broken.
Scragg Caldari Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:20:00 - [10] Every game I have ever played has gone to the hell in a hand basket as soon as the practive of purchasing in game items and currency for RL cash was tolerated. The good news is I have heard of people having their wallets emptied all the way down to -2X what they where caught purchasing. I say brilliant idea to the devs for that one! It would indeed be nice if people could seperate thier real life lazy and greedy tendencies from their fictional ones.
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:25:00 - [11] I don't care. Chances are that they suck so more good loot for the rest of us.
DuckM4n Vo	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:13:00 - [12] take advice of your name and go die! Please
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Valan on 23/10/2006 19:20:45 Originally by: DuckM4n Vo take advice of your name and go die! Please I don't usually resort to this kind of thing but you started it... I'm assuming you're a person that benefits and likes the current system of buying your way ahead as you don't have the brains or common sense to play properly. Further illustrated by your inability to alter the forum settings and post with your main or post a comment within any value. If removing GTCs from the game takes people like you out of it thats another nail in the GTC coffin as far as I'm concerened. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:24:00 - [14] Another person upset that he can't sell his isk on ebay - please ban 'Death Kill' CCP.
Terminus adacai Caldari Mintaka Mining Inc	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:00:00 - [15] Allowing the sale of GTCs for ISK has placed a RL value on isk. I now know that 133mm isk is worth about $14.95 US in RL because of this practice. By purchasing GTCs then selling them in game for isk, CCP has made themselves the middle man in the isk for cash schemes. It sucks, but what can you do? There are people that are making a living on auction sites selling isk and ships/modules. The problem is not those crafty folks, but the demand for it. As long as people are willing to purchase equipment and isk for RL money, you are going to have those that will supply the demand. EVE has 2 economies, one in game and one in RL. This risks allowing the taxation of ISK. (Don't laugh, the IRS is looking into it as reported in the AP).
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:06:00 - [16] still ccp removes any suspected ebay/farming isk from honest players wallets seen that first hand, and really now every trade you cant justify, if you sold crap to the bad people you're gone ------ relaxed corp looking for members
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Terminus adacai Allowing the sale of GTCs for ISK has placed a RL value on isk. I now know that 133mm isk is worth about $14.95 US in RL because of this practice. By purchasing GTCs then selling them in game for isk, CCP has made themselves the middle man in the isk for cash schemes. It sucks, but what can you do? There are people that are making a living on auction sites selling isk and ships/modules. The problem is not those crafty folks, but the demand for it. As long as people are willing to purchase equipment and isk for RL money, you are going to have those that will supply the demand. EVE has 2 economies, one in game and one in RL. This risks allowing the taxation of ISK. (Don't laugh, the IRS is looking into it as reported in the AP). Good post - if there were no buyers, there wouldn't be any sellers. The buyers should be hit with the ban stick just as hard as the sellers are.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Gloria Stitz Another person upset that he can't sell his isk on ebay - please ban 'Death Kill' CCP. You can do beter than that, come on...I belive in you N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 The new rabble, people buying in game advantages with real life time. They sit play for hours and hours and hours each day essentially overwhleming other players not by being better but by simply giving up everything else in life to sit at a keyboard. It offers far greater than rewards than even money can buy Complete and utter rubbish. You can buy your way to 100 billion isk faster than you can farm or whatever. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Gloria Stitz Another person upset that he can't sell his isk on ebay - please ban 'Death Kill' CCP. You can do beter than that, come on...I belive in you So why do you care? The only possible reason is damage to the ebay market. A player can buy as much ISK as they want, but without the troops to back it up, they will still be a marginal figure in eve politics. ISK is fuel, but without the players to use it, then it is pointless. The biggest problem is straight ISK sales on ebay, and since this still goes on, it shows that the buyers are not being banned (forget the sellers, its the market that is to blame).
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:33:00 - [21] Edited by: Death Kill on 23/10/2006 20:33:59 Originally by: Gloria Stitz So why do you care? The only possible reason is damage to the ebay market. You--------------------------------------->The point. Quote: A player can buy as much ISK as they want, but without the troops to back it up, they will still be a marginal figure in eve politics. ISK is fuel, but without the players to use it, then it is pointless. A player, how bout A alliance? If you are unable to add 2+2 from my original post then I womnt bothed wasting more time on you. Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Masheine	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Masheine on 23/10/2006 20:38:31 Edited by: Masheine on 23/10/2006 20:38:03 Originally by: Death Kill Complete and utter rubbish. You can buy your way to 100 billion isk faster than you can farm or whatever. And you can play your way to 100 billion isk without having to spend real money to get it. It's not a rubbish argument, it's the whole point of the argument. Isk for time or isk for money.
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Death Kill Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. I repeat my request to CCP to investigate your account. You are trying to boost your ebay sales. No one could be stupid enough as to post the above. You are definitely doing this for ulterior motives.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:54:00 - [24] Edited by: Death Kill on 23/10/2006 20:54:51 Originally by: Gloria Stitz Originally by: Death Kill Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. I repeat my request to CCP to investigate your account. You are trying to boost your ebay sales. No one could be stupid enough as to post the above. You are definitely doing this for ulterior motives. No one can be this stupid. Do you even know how to read, or do you have a monkey next to you typing your reply? N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Esaka Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Death Kill Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. LOL! Ebay & friends can't be limited, this has been proven by countless other mmorpgs. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com Evewide Market-Info: http://eve-central.com/
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:35:00 - [26] Edited by: Sha''ha''dem on 24/10/2006 08:48:20 From you we see the problem with playing video games for 20 years, you spent so much time in frivolous pursuits that you failed to actually acquire any really knowledge or understanding. Have you ever wondered why people cheat, what cheating is? Have you considered that everyone lives their lives a little differently, have differing wants and needs, have different obligations. But of course you haven't, you just said so yourself. SO allow me to enlighten you. Firstly, let me start by debunking this idea of risk vs reward. What risk vs reward really refers to is the amount of reward some person needs for taking on some risk, and the amount of reward some person needs is based on their risk aversion which varies from person to person. Let that sink in for a bit, because it's pretty important. What we have here is an explanation for a lot of the behavior we see in Eve and within our daily lives, why some people are thrilled by heavy death penalties and why some people rob convenience stores. Now to more fully understand this first concept, let's use a pretty basic example. You are offered the following game: Give me $3.00 and I'll flip a coin. If it lands on heads I'll give you $6.00 and if it lands on tails you get nothing and I keep the $3.00. Would you participate in this game? If you wouldn't, how much would I have to give you back before you did? And if you would, how much could I avoid giving you back before you wouldn't participate? Now this actually leads us to an interesting corollary. For some risk loving people, adding risk actually increases the return they receive, giving rise to a negative relationship. These people see the risk as a reward in itself. Other people, who have nearly infinite risk aversion, will require an enormous increase in their return for what seems to anyone else to be a negligible increase in the amount of risk, and at the extremes of risk aversion, no amount of increase in reward will be enough to compensate some person for even the smallest increase in the amount of risk. Any game which believes each person has the same degree of risk aversion balks in the face of obvious reality. Getting back on track to the actual topic of isk buying hurting the game. In order for this to actually be true, we need ot show either that this has increased the price level for a normal basket of modules above and beyond the increase we would observe simply from players having more money as they grind it out over time through whatever means happens to catch their fancy. But the data actually proves the opposite. Prices have in most cases either risen very slowly, not at all, or have actually decreased within the past year. And even if there has been a large amount of isk buying, the system has shown itself to be robust enough to be robust enough to ensure that enough resource creation has occurred to maintain a stable price level. So in such a case, no amount of isk buying would ever have a large effect, the system would simply generate enough resources to maintain a stable price level. As for isk buyers being able to have a cutting edge during pvp, this again can not be shown to be true. PVP is a time irrelevant process. What matters is the outcome, not the steps leading up to the outcome (I mean the steps not related to the actual pvp encounter) because there is not way of knowing for sure how that person got both that ship and fittings and those skills. And also because in my eyes. there is little difference in worth when comparing someone who has to work for a living with a someone who by whatever means does not and is able to spend all day playing video games.
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:36:00 - [27] LetÆs examine one last example; buying scalped baseball tickets. Imagine for a second, that tickets for a baseball game are sold from only booth, are only sold at one point during the day, are sold continuously until there are no more tickets, are sold one per customer, in order to buy a ticket you need to wait in a line for exactly 3 hours irregardless of when you get in the line, and not everyone is able to come buy tickets at the time they are sold. Let us further assume that there are exactly enough tickets to equal the number of people who want to attend the baseball game and the price of a ticket is so small, anyone can afford one. Obviously we are going to examine this is in light of opportunity cost, so I see no pointing beating around the bush. The opportunity cost of buying a ticket is both the price of the ticket (you could have used the money to buy something else) and the 3 hour waiting time. The 3 hour waiting time is something no one wants to do, and would avoid if they could. Indeed, there are some people who pay others to wait in line for them, themselves spending those 3 hours doing anything from twiddling their thumbs to laboring, it really doesnÆt matter what they are doing. However not everyone can afford to both pay someone to wait 3 for them. These people believe since they had to waste 3 of their hours waiting in line, everyone should have to wait 3 hours in line, even if they can afford to pay someone to do it for them. Doing anything else would be cheating in their eyes. They make the claim that there are enough tickets to go around, but should only be available to the people who worked for them by standing in line, and anyone who actually did the work of standing in line, should not be able to use the ticket they worked for as they please (by selling it to someone who didnÆt stand in line). But there is not value to standing in line, anyone can see what a wasteful activity it is. When told they could have spent two hours flipping burgers and paid someone to do it for them, these people would bristle with anger, replying, ôYou donÆt earn the right to hold a ticket by doing any other work than waiting in line. The very idea that you could trade one type of labor for another is simply absurd, and at different rates on top of that. Who do you think you are?ö We all need to accept that work done is work done, and everything is interchangeable, which is why we are paid in dollars instead of cheese. Society has long since moved past the era of the rugged individual who does everything for himself. We must all accept that each person faces a different risk vs reward curve and differing opportunity costs of time. Anyone who states isk buying is cheating on strict moral grounds based on such high principles as risk vs reward/investment/time vs reward, which they fail to define when they do, and state them in such a way as to declaim for the entire audience that they know next to nthing about them, is making a very empty argument indeed. So empty, I was able to pour an entire sea into an urn the size of a top hat, and would have gladly followed with an ocean, if only for risk of either no one reading it or falling asleep.
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:36:00 - [28] Finally we are lead to the idea of opportunity cost. The opportunity cost is simply the cost of what you had to give up to gain some X. An opportunity cost can be anything as simple as giving up a Budweiser to buy a Samuel Adams, or giving the only available heart to a young child instead of a much older patient because you believe that child will have more years ahead of it. What we need to talk about is the how Eve players face and opportunity cost, and more specifically while this wonÆt necessarily justify the buying of isk, it will at least absolves these players from the threat of committing a cardinal sin which you would make it out to be. In the larger game of life, no not John ConwayÆs game of life ûsee http://www.math.com/students/wonders/life/life.html for more information- one cannot exist simply by sheer force of will or desire, one must at the least be supported by someoneÆs labor, even if it isnÆt oneÆs own. Though since simply living to work would be onerous indeed, we have created little diversions for ourselves, providing happiness to what otherwise would have been a very dreary existence. But these little diversions, because they are diversions from working, exist for the sole sake of providing pleasure, whether that is the pleasure of accomplishment (though I do concede that the initial labor needed to survive might fall into the pleasure of accomplishment for some people) or the pleasure of excesses (but not if youÆre a Puritan). The pleasure of excess is a pleasure not only because it is not work, but also because it in itself stimulates the body to release those hormones which make us happy. Certainly the pleasure from accomplishment and the pleasure from excess can intermingle and coexist, but those categories are not being discussed here. We can safely place Eve rather thoroughly in the pleasure of excess, you donÆt play Eve to produce a livelihood, and you wonÆt find yourself ensconced in history for the fame you canÆt earn by playing Eve, so it isnÆt a social accomplishment even if you believe it to be a personal accomplishment. Society therefore could exist without Eve, though Eve could not exist without society. The opportunity cost of an hour of Eve is the cost of one hour you could have spent providing for your livelihood. However, because of todayÆs large productivity, we donÆt need to spend all of our time laboring, and have free time to use as we see fit. The amount of time and quality of that time might vary from person to person, but it is there except in cases of very drastic poverty. For a dependent child or adult, who doesnÆt spend very much time laboring and has few obligations, the opportunity cost of their time is very low, they arenÆt giving up the ability to live in order to enjoy living. An adult however who has many obligations, whether they be dependents or work related obligations, has a very high opportunity cost of their time. Indeed, many people have other people who are dependent on them to work, and this person taking more time for leisure negatively benefits not only themselves, but those other dependent people. Take for example a garbage man. Many people are dependent on this garbage man to take their trash to the town dump (which in itself was the result of an opportunity cost, here the cost of using the land as a park or for buildings). When this garbage man does his job, everyone avoids having to live in their own filth and everyone is well off. But if the garbage man were to decide to simply stop collecting garbage and play Eve, the entire population of people who were dependent on the garbage man to collect their trash will find themselves swimming in the waste they created. Here the opportunity cost is not only of the garbage manÆs own wage, but every personÆs well being who is dependent on this garbage man. As with the risk vs reward case, each person faces a different time vs reward curve because each personÆs opportunity cost of time is different. It see
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:53:00 - [29] And let me just add, lest any grow view this with the wrong mind, I have not ever nor will ever buy isk, adena, gold, whatever. With only 150 million isk in total assets to my name, there is more than enough proof to show this. While I don't actually follow my own idea, I can at least understand why people might do so; though heavens know some people actually do buy isk not because they face a very high oppurtunity cost to their time, but simply because they need to ensure they have the biggest throbbing shaft of virtual manliness.
Mallick	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:55:00 - [30] It is pretty much equally to having an production alt sitting in a station, never undocking what so ever with hundreds of t2 blueprints sitting in the hangar...

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