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Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:35:00 - [91] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Any player that has more than 10 of any particular gist mod in their hangar should have them taken by CCP as well ... you know they were gotten by farming plexes (gist mods are VERY easiy converted to large amounts of isk - similar to GTC's) This is exactly what I was talking about. This should read more like: Quote: WAH! My enemy has done a lot of work running complexes over and over to get the good mods that I don't have. WAH! Want those mods? Go run the complex like they do, Sherlock.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:38:00 - [92] For those upset about people purchasing high-SP accounts with ISK (earned, traded for GTCs, or wherever) ... think about this: this means that they don't have the experience of playing that character. When playing World of Warcraft, I'd see purchased high-level players come in and just be total losers. They had NO clue what they were doing ... and it was obvious. So, BEG your enemy to buy some account that they know nothing about. Encourage them to buy that carrier. Then blow the hell out of them because they don't know how to fly it.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:42:00 - [93] I have only two observations to add. First, a substantial proportion of the player base operate multiple accounts that are payed for solely with GTC's. In many cases, players can only continue to operate these accounts while they can buy GTC's with ISK. If in-game GTC trading is banned, many accounts will close, sales of GTC's will fall and CCP will lose future revenue. It is unlikely that CCP would want this outcome. Secondly, many people here (and previously) make the assertion that the game economy may be damaged by a rogue GTC seller with ambitions of running a T2 monopoly. Yet at no time has anyone produced one shred of evidence to support this view. Recent auctions for T2 ships (reaching bids of 70+ billion) have all been attended by well established and recognised members of the T2 production community and no new bogeymen have appeared from the shadows to claim some of the best BPO's in game. This argument is clearly fallacious. Originally by: Ask Ninja Kill all the wolves you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people.
Buzz Dura	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:19:00 - [94] You know .. I must confess, I'm utterly at a loss as to what all the fuss is about :) I get paid plenty but I have to run a wife, a child, 2 cars and a house. So... Imagine my free time, not looking rosy is it? Why can't I buy GTC to trade for ISK? That's legal right? I only play for about ... well, less than 10 hours (MAX!) a week so how can I possibly ruin your game? I would imagine most people who buy GTC for isk are in the same boat as me, I mean, how many merchant bankers play eve who get paid $7000 a month? It's a total non-issue ... can we get back to flaming people on forum instead? It's far more entertaining :)
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:17:00 - [95] Quote: So... Imagine my free time, not looking rosy is it? Why can't I buy GTC to trade for ISK? That's legal right? Yup, perfectly legal. It's all about people with irrational fears who want to control how others play. Quote: I only play for about ... well, less than 10 hours (MAX!) a week so how can I possibly ruin your game? Well, apparently, your mere presence totally destroys the economy. Further up this thread, someone made an excellent point: the said this was a hobby. MMORPGs are no long "just games". People spend way too much time on them. People guild guilds, corps, friendships, empires. It's quite normal for people to spend money on other hobbies. Why not on this one (where the rules allow)?
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:18:00 - [96] PS: I haven't bought ISK or sold GTCs and don't plan to. In the future I might buy GTCs ... presuming there wasn't some else cool and nifty that I wanted to spend the ISK on. I just don't see why everyone is so up-in-arms about it.
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:11:00 - [97] Originally by: Michela PS: I haven't bought ISK or sold GTCs and don't plan to. In the future I might buy GTCs ... presuming there wasn't some else cool and nifty that I wanted to spend the ISK on. I just don't see why everyone is so up-in-arms about it. Because the system is open to abuse on at least two counts. I've left out the risk verse reward arguement that every 0.0 seller has been using to batter mission runners since missions were created. Forget the mulitple account arguement, you have to play the account and hence put in the effort. 1) You can currently run an entire unbeatable alliance off GTC sales. Giving you an unfair advantage over high end game content. 2) You can turn isk into real life cash with GTCs. Register sellers and manage the abuse. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Darkrogue Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:52:00 - [98] Honestly I dont think it affects Eve nearly as much as other MMO's. Some armor reps would cost as much as $150.00 in real life money. And if the person brings that rep into PVP it may get blown up in a matter of seconds. This goes for anything, ships, modules, implants. .....The only people complaining about this must be mission runners.
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:55:00 - [99] Originally by: Darkrogue Honestly I dont think it affects Eve nearly as much as other MMO's. Some armor reps would cost as much as $150.00 in real life money. And if the person brings that rep into PVP it may get blown up in a matter of seconds. This goes for anything, ships, modules, implants. .....The only people complaining about this must be mission runners. Agree with the first bit. Middle bit as you say doesn't matter. Last bit is trolling. This is what I mean why sell them on ebay for RL cash? Register them keep them for the people who need them and those who cna't seem to get the hang of EVE and get rid of the abusers. Linkage I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:57:00 - [100] Agreed. The multiple account argument is complete *****s. If someone wants to pay for and play multiple accounts, that's their business. Originally by:** Valan You can turn isk into real life cash with GTCs. Why is this bad? The fact that the GTC exists and is in circulation means that CCP was paid for it. So, it benefits us all. Companies that continue to get paid tend to continue to provide services. Originally by: Valan You can currently run an entire unbeatable alliance off GTC sales. Giving you an unfair advantage over high end game content. So can anyone. So, the playing field is level. Seriously, has someone done this? Or, is this just fear-mongering? CCP has put in an interesting system to help curb the rampant sale of ISK. They've done it in a way that allows people to stay in the game who might now stay in the game by allowing them to pay for their game time with ISK. Let's face a little reality here: people are GOING to buy/sell ISK/gold/sex. Those with money will seek out those willing to sell. And, those who want that money will do what they must. Seriously, you can't stop it. One needs to find ways to funnel those things creatively. And, as I've said, it looks like CCP has done that.
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:59:00 - [101] Originally by: Valan 2) You can turn isk into real life cash with GTCs. And how did you intend to do this? By selling the GTCs? That's a helluvalotta work for a few spare bucks Heck I earn more than that by sitting on my rear at home Anyways: It's either this or mining in their already taken space in most major alliances The small ones without mining space are't a very great risk for the game economy as it is. All in all, thos who could do something horrible with that money, already have other ways And it's not like ISK is hard to come by. And, ya, hordes of bucksa will be lost for CCP if this wasn't allowed... Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:25:00 - [102] The reason why selling GTCs for isk is legal is that CCP gets the money to where if they didn't allow it ppl would buy the isk from isk selling sites and Ebay. No matter what, ppl will get isk from somewhere and I for one would rather see CCP get the money then some macrominer or isk farmer. Get rid of selling GTCs and we would be back at square one with macroers and farmers flooding every .5 and up systems. --
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:38:00 - [103] Edited by: Valan on 25/10/2006 16:40:46 One alliance is actually using its masses to produce isk through GTC sales. Which is not a level playing field and not in the spirit of the game. Basically these aren't guys who couldn't play without GTCs these are players who normally pay cash but the alliance is getting them to buy GTC from the alliance itself. The difference in the deal gives them a profit in isk so they can buy capitals and POS. Cheating on a small scale doesn't really bother the community at large, 2000 cheating people does. The reason I'm against reselling GTCs for RL cash is because it aids the macro farmers. Instead of risking a ban on ebay they're circumventing ebay and using GTCs. I think the general consensus on these boards is that the ebaying macro miners are bad. CCP have given them a backdoor. Also people who purchase GTCs from ebay are not covered and people do buy them. CCP ban these guys for ebaying and farming so we should prevent them from laundering isk using GTCs. Register sellers close the loophole. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:38:00 - [104] Edited by: Sojuro Ryosaki on 25/10/2006 17:40:36 Originally by: Valan ...these are players who normally pay cash but the alliance is getting them to buy GTC from the alliance itself. These players are giving other alliance members isk to pay for their accounts. Sounds fare to me Originally by: Valan The reason I'm against reselling GTCs for RL cash is because it aids the macro farmers. Instead of risking a ban on ebay they're circumventing ebay and using GTCs. How the heck does selling GTCs for isk help macroers and farmers? Are you a complete moron? How GTC Sales Work 101: CCP sells GTC to player1 which sells GTC to player2 to which CCP has more funds to continue the game development. How Macroing and Farming Work 101: Macroer/farmer do their things and sells goods to player1 for isk. M/F takes isk and puts on Ebay or isk selling web site. M/F keeps money earned from selling isk. Money does not return to CCP excluding monthly fees. Originally by: Valan CCP ban these guys for ebaying and farming Originally by: Valan so we should prevent them from laundering isk using GTCs. Register sellers close the loophole. --
Tarkan Kador Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.25 18:26:00 - [105] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 25/10/2006 18:27:11 The thing that scares me about the GTC for ISK thing, is that when the bubble bursts, it will hurt us all. This game has fixed operating costs. It also has plans to expand the franchise. If at any time it can't meet those things, the game suffers financial collapse. Now I don't know how many people play the 140,000 to 170,000 accounts. Nor do I know how many of those people who are playing the accounts are playing via GTCs for timecodes. Nor do I know how much prepaid time is floating around, getting stockpiled, versus being consumed. All I can say is that the growth of the game, the number of concurrent accounts logged on tranquility, or the number of subscriptions alone does not give us any clear indication of whether or not this game is on a firm financial footing, given this GTC for ISK business. For all we know, the game could be going broke right now, and we'd never know. All it takes is for enough people who are paying to not pay anymore, and enough GTCs floating around to where you wouldn't have any need to buy more from CCP, and the game is sunk. We could very well wake up one day and see two headlines from Kieron: "Good news! We just got 50,000 concurrent accounts on Tranquility." "Bad news! We are now bankrupt." When the game goes under because there is too much prepaid time, and not enough new revenue, then what good will your GTCs or ISK do then?
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2006.10.25 18:53:00 - [106] OK, 1 more time for the reading impaired. player1 BUYS WITH RL MONEY a GTC from CCP. Player1 then sells GTC to player2 for isk. This means that player1 is paying for player2's account for the time of the GTC. So, player2 pays player1 isk for the appreciation of player1 taking care of his account. --
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:37:00 - [107] Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki How the heck does selling GTCs for isk help macroers and farmers? Are you a complete moron? The farmers convert the proceeds into isk and buy GTCs. They can then sell the GTCs on ebay or a private site. For instance I have 10 billion isk, I buy a bundle of GTCs then sell them for real cash easy, I haven't broken the Eula have I? So whats the point in banning anyone for ebaying why is one legit and the other not? Occasionally the buyer gets scammed because it is an out of game transaction. Its been stated numerous times how it works I would like the loop hole closing and all GTC trading brought into CCPs control. So back to your original statement:- How the heck does selling GTCs for isk help macroers and farmers? Answered for the tenth time. So to the second of your statement:- Are you a complete moron? Nope because I knew the answer to the question. So you don't read posts properly or you're trying to divert attention by flaming. So that makes you the moron or ebaying trash. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:39:00 - [108] If you'd bothered to do any research at all, macroers do not get their money that way. They farm isk and then sell it for irl cash DIRECTLY, for whatever their prices are (probably at a better conversion rate than GTC -> ISK or else nobody would buy from them). GTCs dont come anywhere near their operation except possibly to pay for their accounts, which I could decide if I could be arsed to do the math. My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:39:00 - [109] Edited by: Valan on 25/10/2006 22:40:08 Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki OK, 1 more time for the reading impaired. player1 BUYS WITH RL MONEY a GTC from CCP. Player1 then sells GTC to player2 for isk. This means that player1 is paying for player2's account for the time of the GTC. So, player2 pays player1 isk for the appreciation of player1 taking care of his account. Thats an example of a good transaction that isn't that big of an issue. Thats a lamer helping a poor person. Thats not what I have a problem with as such as its cheating sanctioned by CCP. So its you thats reading impaired as its the type of transaction above I would like prevented. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:41:00 - [110] Originally by: zeKzn If you'd bothered to do any research at all, macroers do not get their money that way. They farm isk and then sell it for irl cash DIRECTLY, for whatever their prices are (probably at a better conversion rate than GTC -> ISK or else nobody would buy from them). GTCs dont come anywhere near their operation except possibly to pay for their accounts, which I could decide if I could be arsed to do the math. Mostly yes but not always. Although ebay GTC sales have suddenly vanished. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:46:00 - [111] Edited by: zeKzn on 25/10/2006 22:48:06 Edited by: zeKzn on 25/10/2006 22:47:03 Originally by: Valan Mostly yes but not always. Although ebay GTC sales have suddenly vanished. So, basically, there's a small downside of helping the minority of farmers. You know, there's this thing called a cost benefit analysis, and so far its saying GTCs aren't a bad idea at all. Edit: believe me, they dont care about account bans at all. I guarantee you if you ban a farmer's account he'll be back on another one thats in at least a retriever if not a fully outfitted covetor in about 5 minutes. My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.25 23:08:00 - [112] Hmm, I doubt CCP would ever actually change this though. I personally dont think its that bad of an idea, its just when people come in and overdo it.....But, in effect, CCP gets cash, rich people get isk, rich ingame people get game time? You see if they made some kind of restriction or some way of limiting it then it would be perfectly fine Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"

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