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Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:21:00 - [1] Edited by: Death Kill on 23/10/2006 16:20:49 So, it seams we have a new issue (finally) hitting the agenda. People paying rl money for getting ISK, as a person that has been playing games for more than 20 year and online games since 1999 I look at selling GTC for isk as BLATANT CHEATING. It can possibly break the game, because the game is based on certain principles such as risk vs reward/investment/time vs reward. Selling gtc undermines this. CCP, hear our plea! Yes GTC buys you more Ferraris but seriously its starting to hurt the community you claim to love. God knows how the alliance map would look like if there were no gtc. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Dhaeron Lhun	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:34:00 - [2] There is no real way to stop RMTs in MMORPGs nowadays. As someone who played FFXI through the rise of the gilsellers i actually have to compliment CCP for making a pretty RMT resistant game. And i think the GTC trading will actually hinder the RMT companies because there's a lot of normal players out as competition. If you want to see some really bad results of RMT check out the older servers of FFXI. They completely dominate the economy, from crafting to camping NMs. Anything that's doable with less than a dozen or so experienced players (RMTs still can't field that many) has been taken over by them. And every year after christmas and easter you have a burst of about 500% inflation.
Heldane Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:48:00 - [3] I applaud CCP's endeavour to get a handle on the EVE secondary market. There is no manner in which to completely dissolve the secondary ISK market as all previous popular MMOs have discovered be it gold, gil, adena or what have you. At least CCP recognizes the issue and has made steps to control it. I see this issue as being more of a jealousy problem than anything else.
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:51:00 - [4] Edited by: infraX on 23/10/2006 17:52:03 somebody already made a post about this issue here, no need for another one already. Signautre removed - not suitable for a teen audience - Serathu ([email protected]) fixed:
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:51:00 - [5] Hi, CCP doesnt care, thanks for your time. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
000Hunter000 Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:54:00 - [6] Sadly this is the case, any little rich kid(person) can sorta 'win eve' Just use daddies platinum CC and buy yourselves a char and a few bill isk and voila, and the sad part is that it's legal (use the platinum card to buy lots and lots of gtc's) Damn i wish i was filthy rich... err... nm that cheating is bad mkay? Banner will be updated shortly
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:56:00 - [7] Here is the twist on your narrow point of view. The new rabble, people buying in game advantages with real life time. They sit play for hours and hours and hours each day essentially overwhleming other players not by being better but by simply giving up everything else in life to sit at a keyboard. It offers far greater than rewards than even money can buy, as you develope a larger friend network to call on to zerg for you, as well as earns you more than enough money to play whatever ships items you want. It can possibly break a game, wait in fact it already breaks most games. It is the same crap different pile, the only difference is one person avoids work to sit in front of a computer lazily, while the other person goes to work, has a life and instead simply buys the stuff with the money they earned working instead of sitting at thier computer for hours... Oddly enough the ones sitting at thier computer for hours need the ones who can afford GTC's because they don;t work and can't pay to play without it.
Quin Tal Fort Knox Inc Expeto Libertas Foedus	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:59:00 - [8] Originally by: infraX Edited by: infraX on 23/10/2006 17:52:03 somebody already made a post about this issue here, no need for another one already. And the guy who made this one also replied this thread many times, then made this new one. lol
Heldane Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:08:00 - [9] The way I see it it is not tantamount to buying ISK with RL money. The alliance gets a kickback for referalls (smart move and legal), with this kickback they purchase TCs (again totally legal) they then sell these TCs to other players for ISK (once again entirely legal). It is not the same as someone logging into an ISK selling website and paying $20 for 500 million ISK or whatever. I'm sure any alliance with sufficient membership numbers could have a similar system installed so in essence the entire argument amounts to no more than whining as there is no real rule being broken.
Scragg Caldari Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:20:00 - [10] Every game I have ever played has gone to the hell in a hand basket as soon as the practive of purchasing in game items and currency for RL cash was tolerated. The good news is I have heard of people having their wallets emptied all the way down to -2X what they where caught purchasing. I say brilliant idea to the devs for that one! It would indeed be nice if people could seperate thier real life lazy and greedy tendencies from their fictional ones.
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:25:00 - [11] I don't care. Chances are that they suck so more good loot for the rest of us.
DuckM4n Vo	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:13:00 - [12] take advice of your name and go die! Please
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Valan on 23/10/2006 19:20:45 Originally by: DuckM4n Vo take advice of your name and go die! Please I don't usually resort to this kind of thing but you started it... I'm assuming you're a person that benefits and likes the current system of buying your way ahead as you don't have the brains or common sense to play properly. Further illustrated by your inability to alter the forum settings and post with your main or post a comment within any value. If removing GTCs from the game takes people like you out of it thats another nail in the GTC coffin as far as I'm concerened. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:24:00 - [14] Another person upset that he can't sell his isk on ebay - please ban 'Death Kill' CCP.
Terminus adacai Caldari Mintaka Mining Inc	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:00:00 - [15] Allowing the sale of GTCs for ISK has placed a RL value on isk. I now know that 133mm isk is worth about $14.95 US in RL because of this practice. By purchasing GTCs then selling them in game for isk, CCP has made themselves the middle man in the isk for cash schemes. It sucks, but what can you do? There are people that are making a living on auction sites selling isk and ships/modules. The problem is not those crafty folks, but the demand for it. As long as people are willing to purchase equipment and isk for RL money, you are going to have those that will supply the demand. EVE has 2 economies, one in game and one in RL. This risks allowing the taxation of ISK. (Don't laugh, the IRS is looking into it as reported in the AP).
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:06:00 - [16] still ccp removes any suspected ebay/farming isk from honest players wallets seen that first hand, and really now every trade you cant justify, if you sold crap to the bad people you're gone ------ relaxed corp looking for members
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Terminus adacai Allowing the sale of GTCs for ISK has placed a RL value on isk. I now know that 133mm isk is worth about $14.95 US in RL because of this practice. By purchasing GTCs then selling them in game for isk, CCP has made themselves the middle man in the isk for cash schemes. It sucks, but what can you do? There are people that are making a living on auction sites selling isk and ships/modules. The problem is not those crafty folks, but the demand for it. As long as people are willing to purchase equipment and isk for RL money, you are going to have those that will supply the demand. EVE has 2 economies, one in game and one in RL. This risks allowing the taxation of ISK. (Don't laugh, the IRS is looking into it as reported in the AP). Good post - if there were no buyers, there wouldn't be any sellers. The buyers should be hit with the ban stick just as hard as the sellers are.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Gloria Stitz Another person upset that he can't sell his isk on ebay - please ban 'Death Kill' CCP. You can do beter than that, come on...I belive in you N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 The new rabble, people buying in game advantages with real life time. They sit play for hours and hours and hours each day essentially overwhleming other players not by being better but by simply giving up everything else in life to sit at a keyboard. It offers far greater than rewards than even money can buy Complete and utter rubbish. You can buy your way to 100 billion isk faster than you can farm or whatever. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Gloria Stitz Another person upset that he can't sell his isk on ebay - please ban 'Death Kill' CCP. You can do beter than that, come on...I belive in you So why do you care? The only possible reason is damage to the ebay market. A player can buy as much ISK as they want, but without the troops to back it up, they will still be a marginal figure in eve politics. ISK is fuel, but without the players to use it, then it is pointless. The biggest problem is straight ISK sales on ebay, and since this still goes on, it shows that the buyers are not being banned (forget the sellers, its the market that is to blame).
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:33:00 - [21] Edited by: Death Kill on 23/10/2006 20:33:59 Originally by: Gloria Stitz So why do you care? The only possible reason is damage to the ebay market. You--------------------------------------->The point. Quote: A player can buy as much ISK as they want, but without the troops to back it up, they will still be a marginal figure in eve politics. ISK is fuel, but without the players to use it, then it is pointless. A player, how bout A alliance? If you are unable to add 2+2 from my original post then I womnt bothed wasting more time on you. Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Masheine	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Masheine on 23/10/2006 20:38:31 Edited by: Masheine on 23/10/2006 20:38:03 Originally by: Death Kill Complete and utter rubbish. You can buy your way to 100 billion isk faster than you can farm or whatever. And you can play your way to 100 billion isk without having to spend real money to get it. It's not a rubbish argument, it's the whole point of the argument. Isk for time or isk for money.
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Death Kill Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. I repeat my request to CCP to investigate your account. You are trying to boost your ebay sales. No one could be stupid enough as to post the above. You are definitely doing this for ulterior motives.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:54:00 - [24] Edited by: Death Kill on 23/10/2006 20:54:51 Originally by: Gloria Stitz Originally by: Death Kill Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. I repeat my request to CCP to investigate your account. You are trying to boost your ebay sales. No one could be stupid enough as to post the above. You are definitely doing this for ulterior motives. No one can be this stupid. Do you even know how to read, or do you have a monkey next to you typing your reply? N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Esaka Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Death Kill Ebaying can be limited, deny all trial accounts the rights to transfer money. And possibly put limitations on transfer amount on new characters. LOL! Ebay & friends can't be limited, this has been proven by countless other mmorpgs. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com Evewide Market-Info: http://eve-central.com/
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:35:00 - [26] Edited by: Sha''ha''dem on 24/10/2006 08:48:20 From you we see the problem with playing video games for 20 years, you spent so much time in frivolous pursuits that you failed to actually acquire any really knowledge or understanding. Have you ever wondered why people cheat, what cheating is? Have you considered that everyone lives their lives a little differently, have differing wants and needs, have different obligations. But of course you haven't, you just said so yourself. SO allow me to enlighten you. Firstly, let me start by debunking this idea of risk vs reward. What risk vs reward really refers to is the amount of reward some person needs for taking on some risk, and the amount of reward some person needs is based on their risk aversion which varies from person to person. Let that sink in for a bit, because it's pretty important. What we have here is an explanation for a lot of the behavior we see in Eve and within our daily lives, why some people are thrilled by heavy death penalties and why some people rob convenience stores. Now to more fully understand this first concept, let's use a pretty basic example. You are offered the following game: Give me $3.00 and I'll flip a coin. If it lands on heads I'll give you $6.00 and if it lands on tails you get nothing and I keep the $3.00. Would you participate in this game? If you wouldn't, how much would I have to give you back before you did? And if you would, how much could I avoid giving you back before you wouldn't participate? Now this actually leads us to an interesting corollary. For some risk loving people, adding risk actually increases the return they receive, giving rise to a negative relationship. These people see the risk as a reward in itself. Other people, who have nearly infinite risk aversion, will require an enormous increase in their return for what seems to anyone else to be a negligible increase in the amount of risk, and at the extremes of risk aversion, no amount of increase in reward will be enough to compensate some person for even the smallest increase in the amount of risk. Any game which believes each person has the same degree of risk aversion balks in the face of obvious reality. Getting back on track to the actual topic of isk buying hurting the game. In order for this to actually be true, we need ot show either that this has increased the price level for a normal basket of modules above and beyond the increase we would observe simply from players having more money as they grind it out over time through whatever means happens to catch their fancy. But the data actually proves the opposite. Prices have in most cases either risen very slowly, not at all, or have actually decreased within the past year. And even if there has been a large amount of isk buying, the system has shown itself to be robust enough to be robust enough to ensure that enough resource creation has occurred to maintain a stable price level. So in such a case, no amount of isk buying would ever have a large effect, the system would simply generate enough resources to maintain a stable price level. As for isk buyers being able to have a cutting edge during pvp, this again can not be shown to be true. PVP is a time irrelevant process. What matters is the outcome, not the steps leading up to the outcome (I mean the steps not related to the actual pvp encounter) because there is not way of knowing for sure how that person got both that ship and fittings and those skills. And also because in my eyes. there is little difference in worth when comparing someone who has to work for a living with a someone who by whatever means does not and is able to spend all day playing video games.
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:36:00 - [27] LetÆs examine one last example; buying scalped baseball tickets. Imagine for a second, that tickets for a baseball game are sold from only booth, are only sold at one point during the day, are sold continuously until there are no more tickets, are sold one per customer, in order to buy a ticket you need to wait in a line for exactly 3 hours irregardless of when you get in the line, and not everyone is able to come buy tickets at the time they are sold. Let us further assume that there are exactly enough tickets to equal the number of people who want to attend the baseball game and the price of a ticket is so small, anyone can afford one. Obviously we are going to examine this is in light of opportunity cost, so I see no pointing beating around the bush. The opportunity cost of buying a ticket is both the price of the ticket (you could have used the money to buy something else) and the 3 hour waiting time. The 3 hour waiting time is something no one wants to do, and would avoid if they could. Indeed, there are some people who pay others to wait in line for them, themselves spending those 3 hours doing anything from twiddling their thumbs to laboring, it really doesnÆt matter what they are doing. However not everyone can afford to both pay someone to wait 3 for them. These people believe since they had to waste 3 of their hours waiting in line, everyone should have to wait 3 hours in line, even if they can afford to pay someone to do it for them. Doing anything else would be cheating in their eyes. They make the claim that there are enough tickets to go around, but should only be available to the people who worked for them by standing in line, and anyone who actually did the work of standing in line, should not be able to use the ticket they worked for as they please (by selling it to someone who didnÆt stand in line). But there is not value to standing in line, anyone can see what a wasteful activity it is. When told they could have spent two hours flipping burgers and paid someone to do it for them, these people would bristle with anger, replying, ôYou donÆt earn the right to hold a ticket by doing any other work than waiting in line. The very idea that you could trade one type of labor for another is simply absurd, and at different rates on top of that. Who do you think you are?ö We all need to accept that work done is work done, and everything is interchangeable, which is why we are paid in dollars instead of cheese. Society has long since moved past the era of the rugged individual who does everything for himself. We must all accept that each person faces a different risk vs reward curve and differing opportunity costs of time. Anyone who states isk buying is cheating on strict moral grounds based on such high principles as risk vs reward/investment/time vs reward, which they fail to define when they do, and state them in such a way as to declaim for the entire audience that they know next to nthing about them, is making a very empty argument indeed. So empty, I was able to pour an entire sea into an urn the size of a top hat, and would have gladly followed with an ocean, if only for risk of either no one reading it or falling asleep.
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:36:00 - [28] Finally we are lead to the idea of opportunity cost. The opportunity cost is simply the cost of what you had to give up to gain some X. An opportunity cost can be anything as simple as giving up a Budweiser to buy a Samuel Adams, or giving the only available heart to a young child instead of a much older patient because you believe that child will have more years ahead of it. What we need to talk about is the how Eve players face and opportunity cost, and more specifically while this wonÆt necessarily justify the buying of isk, it will at least absolves these players from the threat of committing a cardinal sin which you would make it out to be. In the larger game of life, no not John ConwayÆs game of life ûsee http://www.math.com/students/wonders/life/life.html for more information- one cannot exist simply by sheer force of will or desire, one must at the least be supported by someoneÆs labor, even if it isnÆt oneÆs own. Though since simply living to work would be onerous indeed, we have created little diversions for ourselves, providing happiness to what otherwise would have been a very dreary existence. But these little diversions, because they are diversions from working, exist for the sole sake of providing pleasure, whether that is the pleasure of accomplishment (though I do concede that the initial labor needed to survive might fall into the pleasure of accomplishment for some people) or the pleasure of excesses (but not if youÆre a Puritan). The pleasure of excess is a pleasure not only because it is not work, but also because it in itself stimulates the body to release those hormones which make us happy. Certainly the pleasure from accomplishment and the pleasure from excess can intermingle and coexist, but those categories are not being discussed here. We can safely place Eve rather thoroughly in the pleasure of excess, you donÆt play Eve to produce a livelihood, and you wonÆt find yourself ensconced in history for the fame you canÆt earn by playing Eve, so it isnÆt a social accomplishment even if you believe it to be a personal accomplishment. Society therefore could exist without Eve, though Eve could not exist without society. The opportunity cost of an hour of Eve is the cost of one hour you could have spent providing for your livelihood. However, because of todayÆs large productivity, we donÆt need to spend all of our time laboring, and have free time to use as we see fit. The amount of time and quality of that time might vary from person to person, but it is there except in cases of very drastic poverty. For a dependent child or adult, who doesnÆt spend very much time laboring and has few obligations, the opportunity cost of their time is very low, they arenÆt giving up the ability to live in order to enjoy living. An adult however who has many obligations, whether they be dependents or work related obligations, has a very high opportunity cost of their time. Indeed, many people have other people who are dependent on them to work, and this person taking more time for leisure negatively benefits not only themselves, but those other dependent people. Take for example a garbage man. Many people are dependent on this garbage man to take their trash to the town dump (which in itself was the result of an opportunity cost, here the cost of using the land as a park or for buildings). When this garbage man does his job, everyone avoids having to live in their own filth and everyone is well off. But if the garbage man were to decide to simply stop collecting garbage and play Eve, the entire population of people who were dependent on the garbage man to collect their trash will find themselves swimming in the waste they created. Here the opportunity cost is not only of the garbage manÆs own wage, but every personÆs well being who is dependent on this garbage man. As with the risk vs reward case, each person faces a different time vs reward curve because each personÆs opportunity cost of time is different. It see
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:53:00 - [29] And let me just add, lest any grow view this with the wrong mind, I have not ever nor will ever buy isk, adena, gold, whatever. With only 150 million isk in total assets to my name, there is more than enough proof to show this. While I don't actually follow my own idea, I can at least understand why people might do so; though heavens know some people actually do buy isk not because they face a very high oppurtunity cost to their time, but simply because they need to ensure they have the biggest throbbing shaft of virtual manliness.
Mallick	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:55:00 - [30] It is pretty much equally to having an production alt sitting in a station, never undocking what so ever with hundreds of t2 blueprints sitting in the hangar...
Kindakrof Caldari Cruor Frater Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:05:00 - [31] AAahh i'm having an Acronym attack! --- --- --- my sig is pr0
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Death Kill So, it seams we have a new issue (finally) hitting the agenda. People paying rl money for getting ISK, as a person that has been playing games for more than 20 year and online games since 1999 I look at selling GTC for isk as BLATANT CHEATING. Totally agreed. Buying isk with rl cash is cheating, plain and simple. It's also incredibly lame. That doesn't stop people, of course, for some people "lame" is a lifestyle. Good thing these morons can't buy actual playing skills with that cash, so the 30mil character they bought from eBay and furnished with 500mil of cash via GTCs will be about as effective for them as a t1 cruiser on a 5mil sp real pilot. As a bright point, some of these morons post on Ships & Modules with threads like "I just bought an Eos and don't have any idea of how to fit it". Some amusement, at least. But yeah, these are the same people who use cheats in Counterstrike and other games. Why bother to play when you can cheat/buy your way around all that hard stuff? Zero respect for anyone buying isk.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Sha'ha'dem Edited by: Sha''ha''dem on 24/10/2006 08:48:20 From you we see the problem with playing video games for 20 years, you spent so much time in frivolous pursuits that you failed to actually acquire any really knowledge or understanding Amazing, please teach me more. Quote: Have you ever wondered why people cheat, what cheating is? Have you considered that everyone lives their lives a little differently, have differing wants and needs, have different obligations.. Im sorry, how is this rellevant AT ALL? Thats right, it isnt. Quote: SO allow me to enlighten you. Oh dear, here we go.... Quote: Firstly, let me start by debunking this idea of risk vs reward. What risk vs reward really refers to is the amount of reward some person needs for taking on some risk, and the amount of reward some person needs is based on their risk aversion which varies from person to person. Let that sink in for a bit, because it's pretty important. What we have here is an explanation for a lot of the behavior we see in Eve and within our daily lives, why some people are thrilled by heavy death penalties and why some people rob convenience stores. You are a mere poser, pretending to "know stuff" yet you make the incredible STUPID maistake of comparing RL with EVE Quote: As for isk buyers being able to have a cutting edge during pvp, this again can not be shown to be true. PVP is a time irrelevant process. What matters is the outcome, not the steps leading up to the outcome This has to be the most stupid thing I have read in a long time. You are under the assumption that isk buyers are n00bs buying their way into EVE, Im sure there is plenty of older players who buy isk. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Spanker	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:24:00 - [34] While buying isk for real life money is absolutely detestful, GTC selling is the lesser of two evils - at least anyone who chooses may do it, and legally at that. - Shpank
Spanker	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:27:00 - [35] Oh and another thing. I can assure you people sitting with 10 billion isk have absolutely no advantage over me with my 200M when we meet in 0.0 - Shpank
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:30:00 - [36] These kind of threads are the new rock and roll (remember you heard it here first)
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:49:00 - [37] The basic fundamental problem, is that no system will ever be truely fair. People are not all equal in their abilities and resources, because of this, no game can ever be made where all players truely are on equal footing.
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:50:00 - [38] I posted this before and will post again. I hate GTCs. While GTC is a beneficial part of eve for a hand of people that pay the game with time codes obtained through isk rather then a credit card.... the system is very imperfect and has turned into an exploit free area, or perhaps I should call it CHEATING.... Yes 5000 accounts benefit from GTCs. (made the number up, don't know the real one) Yes they are 5000 happy people. Yes, 50% of them could afford to pay with the credit card but prefer not to and Yes many of them did use a credit card to pay before this system was introduced. Yes it all seems to be fine Guess what, it is not. While helping all those people out, it is covering a "great evil" so te say. !!! It is abuse free !!! Joe has a very ncie bank account in real life. Joe is successfull in real life. Joe has a nice car. Joe plays mmos and wants to win like any other, Joe is a winner. Joe loves to PvP, combat is what makes Joe happy. So Joe trains skills and PvPs all he can. Well, like it is for all of us, PvP consumes ISK on both sides so in order to keep his habit Joe needs to mine or complex run in order to make ISK to buy SHIP to fit MODULES to go back and PVP. [yelloe]With GTC Joe buys 100 * 90days GTC and sells them for ISK. Joe then buys ships, setups them and is able to PVP all day long. He can come and fight with you for territory and lose a huge number of ships because he does not have to work for them. Having a infinite number of ships makes him a winner. Which is very good, but is only good for Joe,because Joe is an abuser and that is how he wins[/yellow]. CCP NEEDS TO STOP THE GTC ABUSERS Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:17:00 - [39] Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. Why shouldn't these people have right to have fun? They are paying for the Eve monthly service. They have the same right to have fun. But with 2 hours per week they cannot have fun, beceuse they would have to spennd the whoel 2 hours to make ISK and even so they would not be match to players than can play 20 hours per week. So no fun for them. By buying in RL the isk, they have condition to have fun! You think that is so much exploitable? Stop playing so much, get a job and buy ISK yourself! this iss oemhing thjat noway cane become too much imbalanced because is plain simple economy. With some tme the Dolar to isk ratio will stablize ina true value. Where the average paycheck of a costumer per hour will correspond withg teh average ISK a player canmake in game in 1 hour. The only issue with this system is that it bennefits more people form some counties where average income is much much higher. Like Japan and UK. For example.. 14$ is far more thna what I earn per hour here in Brasil. But quite sure is a mediocre per hour income in Japan.
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:28:00 - [40] Let me try and explain a little bit more why I consider the GTC sellers as cheaters. Suppose we are playing card, or rummy, or some other game. We are a couple of normal people having fun at a game. Competition keeps us alert and keeps us at it. All good untill now. Well, when the things get interesting, I reach in a drawer and bring in a second set of cards, or pieces or whatever. I will be the only one having access to these. In this point in the game we re no longer competiting. I am winning and there is nothing you can do about it, because I am using out of game objects to influence the in game environment. Many will bring in the argument taht when the other brings in the second deck of cards, I should also bring in a deck. The problem here is taht I may not have access to a second deck of cards. Maybe I also have access to a second deck of cards, but if we both bring in decks of cards..... Well, if we start bringing in decks of cards the game focus is severly changed and out of place or balance......... At this point the originla rules of the game, or the original environmnet of the game are no longer important. What has become important is which one of us can bring in more decks of cards. I can keep bringing in arguments. I can also explain them. I can and will if I have to, keep doing this kind of posts and posting in this kind of threads. Really hope for some official response to this matter. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:42:00 - [41] Edited by: Rina Shanu on 24/10/2006 10:44:53 Originally by: Polinus Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. During week days taht is exactly how much I play or even less. Originally by: Polinus Why shouldn't these people have right to have fun? They are paying for the Eve monthly service. They have the same right to have fun. They have the exact same rights as any other individual. Originally by: Polinus But with 2 hours per week they cannot have fun, beceuse they would have to spennd the whoel 2 hours to make ISK and even so they would not be match to players than can play 20 hours per week. So no fun for them. I can have fun and make a little bit of ISK without using GTC abuse. YOU could notice taht I am talking about abuse. Buying one GTC or two, maybe 3 or something a month and selling them.. let's see, 390day GTC is about 1.2 billion ISK. That should make your 2 hours a day fun eve time quite covered each month. 3 GTC are not so much and are not influencing the game at a rate at which we cannot compete fair and square. Originally by:* Polinus By buying in RL the isk, they have condition to have fun! You are wrong here, but this a different debate. I was talking about abuse. I will say this tho': It is the game environment and mechanics taht should make it fun, not the outside of game factors. Originally by: Polinus You think that is so much exploitable? Stop playing so much, get a job and buy ISK yourself! This is a personal confrontation or afront. I will not continue into this, but I will tell you that I am working individual, doing quite ok by the standards of my country and reagion and can afford GTC if I want to. I do not want to. Originally by: Polinus this iss oemhing thjat noway cane become too much imbalanced because is plain simple economy. With some tme the Dolar to isk ratio will stablize ina true value. Where the average paycheck of a costumer per hour will correspond withg teh average ISK a player canmake in game in 1 hour. I have two university degrees, one is informatics, the other is economics. I have worked in economical software testing for the US market and now am a coder for a insurance company. Do you think we should start an argument about the ratios of ISK/dollar, ISK/euro, or about the convertibily of ISK ? Perhaps we should bring in the european union or how the exchange market is regulated or should be regulated or some other things in here. Again, my point was abuse of GTC selling. I was and am refering to it. End of story. Official response and discusion please! Originally by: Polinus The only issue with this system is that it bennefits more people form some counties where average income is much much higher. Like Japan and UK. For example.. 14$ is far more thna what I earn per hour here in Brasil. But quite sure is a mediocre per hour income in Japan. Yes, your point is correct. I have to agree and am sure many others will. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:48:00 - [42] GTCs support CCP this is good - keeps the macro miners out of business or they just buy GTCs and CCP is forcing them to fund their game development this is the lesser of 2 evils
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:49:00 - [43] Oh Polinus, Say I have $7000 each month to spend on games. I decide to buy 500 GTC each month, the 90 days ones. Do you thin k such a person would care very very much about the isk/dollar ratio ? Some people have enough money in real life not to care about certain things. (wish I had that $7000 though...... well, I wouldn't spend them on GTC) Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:55:00 - [44] Originally by: Miss Overlord GTCs support CCP this is good - keeps the macro miners out of business or they just buy GTCs and CCP is forcing them to fund their game development this is the lesser of 2 evils From that exact, single and only point of view. Now lets not get int o macrominer discussion here please, because with ratios to ISK/dollar or not, the macro miners are still there and will be there... Want to know how to exterminate them ? Make a special GM division, pay them enough, so that them will stay all they long investigatin the macro petitions. And this will only make their number lower. As long as a ,acrominer can make more bucks in a month to cover for the electricity and internet connection + game fee ................ So CCP has an extra income from the GTC market. That is by all means very good. Well, with that extra income they keep adding to the game... that is even better. But how about regulating a little bit this particular market? Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Khetchi	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:22:00 - [45] I decided to look into this for this game as I have seen it prevailant in several other games. Personally I don't think Eve has much to worry about. Of the several sites I have looked at, the average price of ISK is about $15 for 100mil ISK. While this may seem like a lot of ISK for very little money, it's really only going to attract the newer players. In 0.0 mining or running high level complexes older players can make this amount of ISK quite easily without having to pay the equalivant of a month's subscription. So we are left with the newer players (those less than a couple of months old) who may think that the price is worth it for a little leg up to start with. We all know the temptation of this... I'm willing to bet that most older players have funneled ISK into one of their alts (I'm guilty of this, btw) for the simple reason of convience. The only way this causes problems is when emotes, bots, or whatever you wish to call them make it where it is difficult or impossible for the newer players to compete. In most games it is in the noobie areas where these exploits can make a steady stream of game-money with no risk whatsoever... In Eve this means 1.0 area mining. The good news is that in Eve 1.0 area mining takes so long for so little reward that the price of buying ISK on-line is going to stay relatively high... and if the icefields are moved out of highsec and into 0.4 or lower, the prices of online-ISK are going to skyrocket as every pirate and miner is going to spend every spare moment hunting down and killing emotes. (Risk vs reward.) Want to get rid of emotes in Eve? Here's an Idea... Let any player with a security rating of, say, +8 or higher attack in highsec space without CONCORDE interference. Have them still take a rating hit for instigating attacks, this will limit griefing as they will spend the majority of their time re-building their rating. Heck, you can eliminate griefers altogether by simply limiting the "free" targets they can attack to things larger than cruisers... after all, how many noobies have mining barges? Heck, that's just off the top of my head at 5:00 in the morning... I'm sure there are better ideas to limit or eliminate on-line selling of game money, after all there are games where nobody sells game money on-line.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:26:00 - [46] ok play devils advocate 500 GTC x 400m for each 200B ISK enough to buy a tech 2 BPO
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Miss Overlord ok play devils advocate 500 GTC x 400m for each 200B ISK enough to buy a tech 2 BPO Enough to buy more than 1 tech II BPO. Enough to afford the MC to kick your arse. (MC is used here due to notoriety) Enough to buy me huge fricking lot of apocs, armageddons, megathrons to just go out a blow up. Buhu, I'm the devils advocate. Why am I the devil's advocate when I say something like: "GTC is ok, GTC ABUSE is not ok" ? Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Reite Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:42:00 - [48] Sure it would be a problem if that had been the scale of it. If alot of people had bought many hundred billions of isks and taken over the T2 market and ****. I dont think this is the case though. The case is that its a small venture. The biggest seller ive seen sol 60x90day gtc or something, and i do believe that was for his alliance. When most people at most buy a couple of GTCs i dont really think theres a problem at all. The market havent really changed abit since CCP allowed GTC sales.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Rina Shanu Oh Polinus, Say I have $7000 each month to spend on games. I decide to buy 500 GTC each month, the 90 days ones. Do you thin k such a person would care very very much about the isk/dollar ratio ? Some people have enough money in real life not to care about certain things. (wish I had that $7000 though...... well, I wouldn't spend them on GTC) Justr limit the amount that can be bought per motht per person. Plain simple. Limit for example to $40 per month. Of course , the guy might have sseveral credit cards and accounts.. but then it will be a real minority. Yes some people have money to have anything they want. Live with it. Its capitalism!! The all loved capitalism... people that hates Soviet Union so much suddenly want a more equal world.. lol... And you might have a degree in economics. I have my master in Comp Science and DEVELOPED AN MMO that uses such a system and it works (ok the gamecompany bankrupted.. but for completely diffrent reasons)!! I did it on practice, and practice always beat theory.. sorry. It might be hard but is possible. The average value of RL to in game money stablize in real values. That as long as you sell it only in one country (was our case). But sicne I suppose majority of players are in US and "rich" europe, I think it might be treated as a single country.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:22:00 - [50] this post fun it is . GTC good it is , $$$ for CCP it does
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:22:00 - [51] Edited by: Rina Shanu on 24/10/2006 12:24:21 I am praying to the all mighty mods for my little post not to be /sniped/ :) For I am about to give you a link to another part of the forums. Where thou shall see the seller of GTC. Starting on 07 Sept 2006. We are today on the 24 October 2006. This person sold about 200 GTC in this period or so he states. The Link We can also spot people creating alt characters, just like the BM sellers, named "TimeCardsForU". Oh yet another proffesioanl GTC seller: Linky And I could start looking for more and start counting the nu,mber of GTC they sold based on the number of requests made in those threads, but I do not. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:25:00 - [52] I find the debate here fun to read - lets see if i've sumerasied this correctly Somone who has worked very hard in RL, can in turn be very sucsesfully in eve This leads to the following issues people are concerned about.. 1) Its not a level playing field, alot of the reasons people play mmo's is because their fun, and thier partly fun because of escapeisum, and part of that is people hate RL intrudeing. In sterotyical form player A is a banker - buy billions worth of isk, player B is a supermarket till worker, play ALOT but has fewer assests. Player A and B get into a fight - A can easily outlast B So from player A's point of veiw - he's just happy his hard work has lead to him having fun in game from player B's point of veiw - he's ****ed off because he cannot compete in resource terms - so its no longer for him a level playing feild This is largely i think what death kill and other refer to by "cheating", RL interfering with eve 2) people worry that GTC are distorting the in game economic system largey what people like shinra, and others are concered about. As for myself? well 1), i see no way to prevent this, shifting away from GTC's to just ebay is likley what will happen - reason only one partys (player B) consideres this cheating the other does not at least with GTC sales ccp can monitor what is going on, so what if i cannot compete with everyone, provided enough people stay at around my level thier will allways be something worth doing 2), now this is my big worry, gtc do have the potential to badly distort the economics - worse case - alliacne A has billions can buy up all the HAC's regardless of cost - and so i can never hope to afford one very hard one to do anything about though, as no isk is created using this - only moved around, but an issue i would advise ccp to montior closely - and fairly sure they do So are selling GTC's cheating - NO does excessive use have the potentialy to destroy my ability to have fun? - possible, time will tell - far to early yet, as we have only limited examples (oh and thanks sh...... for the philosophical despute, i'm in agreement, and it made a nice thing to read while eating lunch) All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:47:00 - [53] Edited by: Valan on 24/10/2006 12:48:17 I see the good side to GTCs although personally I hate them. But after reading some of this I suddenly realised I don't PVP in anything but tech1 anyway. If you can't win in tech1 then you need all the help you can get. But I think sellers should be registered and sales limited. One to control abuse and secondly to prevent people from taking it to the extreme where you can run an alliance, buy a Titan or a T2 BPO, purely funded by GTC sales. EDIT: The reason they're bad for EVE is that battles are won through attrition in EVE. If you can replace everything you lose in an instant then you're unbeatable. Hence its cheating, its esentially god mode. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Polinus Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. Then EVE isnt for you, or you would have to settle with less of EVE has to offer since EVE unlike World of Warcarft IS time consuming. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Valan Edited by: Valan on 24/10/2006 12:48:17 But I think sellers should be registered and sales limited. One to control abuse and secondly to prevent people from taking it to the extreme where you can run an alliance, buy a Titan or a T2 BPO, purely funded by GTC sales. agreed - as someone suggested earler perhaps limit people to purchasing only a few All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:19:00 - [56] - Most devs in CCP seem to detest GTC sales; those only exists as a less evil option to plain ebay-style ISK sales (and IMHO should be improved to be less usable in resale-for-euros). - Alas, since it is now part of the game rules kinda have to accept it if going to play here. Then again, logging off to save ship/pod is legal too; I may still detest both practices. - For those treating game objects as RL things, with normal exchange rules of the society: don't forget this is a game, to be played by rules of the game. See anything wrong in the following analogue: University with semi-famous football team figures that training takes too much time from their players' studies. So they force the football league to accept a rule where you can buy extra goals from the referee for a set price. Now, would it be still fun league to play in for the players? Or for the watchers? -Lasse
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Polinus Some guys must understand that there is a LOT of people that likes to play MMO. But due to work and family, cannot play more than 2 or 3 hours er week. Then EVE isnt for you, or you would have to settle with less of EVE has to offer since EVE unlike World of Warcarft IS time consuming. My god.. you don't get it? It does not matter if Eve is for me. It matter if there are enough people of the other type to keep CCp working all by themselves? EVE already does not have a hugea array of subscribers, and cutting out 90% of world population won't help CCP.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Heikki - Most devs in CCP seem to detest GTC sales; those only exists as a less evil option to plain ebay-style ISK sales (and IMHO should be improved to be less usable in resale-for-euros). - Alas, since it is now part of the game rules kinda have to accept it if going to play here. Then again, logging off to save ship/pod is legal too; I may still detest both practices. - For those treating game objects as RL things, with normal exchange rules of the society: don't forget this is a game, to be played by rules of the game. See anything wrong in the following analogue: University with semi-famous football team figures that training takes too much time from their players' studies. So they force the football league to accept a rule where you can buy extra goals from the referee for a set price. Now, would it be still fun league to play in for the players? Or for the watchers? -Lasse Football is a competition.. eve is entretainment only. You wont receive any prozes if you win a battle (RL ones). Quite different stuff.
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:59:00 - [59] Originally by: Polinus Football is a competition.. eve is entretainment only. EvE is PVP Polinus, Player VS Player is COMPETITION. The prize is your own satisfaction, joy, thrill ..... Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:18:00 - [60] Originally by: Polinus My god.. you don't get it? It does not matter if Eve is for me. It matter if there are enough people of the other type to keep CCp working all by themselves? Yes my dear Polinus I do get it. EVE is a compeditive game, and you want people who can only play a few hours a week compete with people who play everyday. Quote: EVE already does not have a hugea array of subscribers, and cutting out 90% of world population won't help CCP. For a single sharded game EVE hs alot of subscribers, I would take single sharded 'only 100k subscribers' over sharded world of warcrap '10 billion subscribers' anyday! You want a game that you can play a few hours a week, world of warcraft is such a game. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:26:00 - [61] Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 24/10/2006 14:26:48 Originally by: ValanEDIT The reason they're bad for EVE is that battles are won through attrition in EVE. If you can replace everything you lose in an instant then you're unbeatable. Hence its cheating, its esentially god mode. This is the nasty side of GTC's really, an alliance can send in hac after hac after hac and even though they may be losing far more than their foe, if he has loads of isk he will win. Where the isk came from is also at question, new players should not be able to hold more than 1 mil in their wallets or be able to send more than 5 eve-mails a day (just to stop those annoying evemails) Any player that has more than 10 of any particular gist mod in their hangar should have them taken by CCP as well ... you know they were gotten by farming plexes (gist mods are VERY easiy converted to large amounts of isk - similar to GTC's)
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:41:00 - [62] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 24/10/2006 14:26:48 Originally by: ValanEDIT The reason they're bad for EVE is that battles are won through attrition in EVE. If you can replace everything you lose in an instant then you're unbeatable. Hence its cheating, its esentially god mode. This is the nasty side of GTC's really, an alliance can send in hac after hac after hac and even though they may be losing far more than their foe, if he has loads of isk he will win. Where the isk came from is also at question, new players should not be able to hold more than 1 mil in their wallets or be able to send more than 5 eve-mails a day (just to stop those annoying evemails) Any player that has more than 10 of any particular gist mod in their hangar should have them taken by CCP as well ... you know they were gotten by farming plexes (gist mods are VERY easiy converted to large amounts of isk - similar to GTC's) your pushing this in the wrong direction. I have to disagree with you. taking in game freedom from newer players just because they are new is not good. and I seem to miss a good enough reason for it. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:56:00 - [63] I have had lots of abortive attempts with thoughts on this post and I have come to this conclusion. The game mechanics put everyone on a level footing and then its our abilities, intelligence guile, interpersonal skills etc that allow us to advance ourselves. Isk sales (GTC or otherwise) circumvent these mechanics so it is not an exploit in the typical sense of the word, but it certainly is one in the spirit of the rules governing them. My concern is not really over the economy of EVE but simply that if I or anyone can buy stuff then they are breaking the balance. Success or failure is based and should only be based on your ability to play the game, not on factors such as more money. EVE is also about earning your way in game not out of it. EVE is not about fairness, but the rules that govern it are meant to be fair. It is an initially a level playing field from which only the path we take and our innate abilities that put us ahead (sorry I said that before) or should be. Why do you think logon traps annoy people, and the mud hurling over bookmarks in holds and node crashes and all the other accusations that fly around? All these thing are attempts to use out of game factors to circumvent the mechanics. If someone can buy their way through the game, aside from being lame, they are also spitting on the central theme, it is not their in game actions that put them ahead, itÆs the size of their wallet, pay check or daddyÆs credit card. GTC is accepted by CCP. The cynical view being because they still get paid for it. The more open minded view being that it allows people without a means to pay to still play. Either way they are here to stay. but taking the latter reason the purpose of GTC sales was to help the buyers not sellers. _______
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:06:00 - [64] Edited by: Death Kill on 24/10/2006 15:06:39 Originally by: Rick Dentill GTC is accepted by CCP. The cynical view being because they still get paid for it. The more open minded view being that it allows people without a means to pay to still play. I've given this some though. Considering that the average EVE player is (IIRC) 27 years old thats not really a valid argument. If you are over the age of 18 and not living on the moon it shouldnt be hard to aquire a bankcard that allows online transactions at all. Good/bad echonomy has nothing to do with it, as VISA issues cards that dont give credit yet allows you to buy stuff online. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Jean LaForge	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:40:00 - [65] Edited by: Jean LaForge on 24/10/2006 15:41:48 I'm curious, to those who are against the casual player buying a few GTC's in order to make ISK (not talking about hundreds at a time), what is your opinion of those people who run multiple accounts?
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:34:00 - [66] Originally by: Jean LaForge Edited by: Jean LaForge on 24/10/2006 15:41:48 I'm curious, to those who are against the casual player buying a few GTC's in order to make ISK (not talking about hundreds at a time), what is your opinion of those people who run multiple accounts? Multiple accounts. I'm for the 2-3 GTCs a months... Multiple accounts have nothing to do with this. Let me explain: in order to run multiple accounts taht person has to dedicate a certain ammount of time to each account. If taht person has that time or is willing to put in that time effort, than it's all fine by me. Having multiple accounts does not bring anything without an effort. This effort is in game. I can see the similarity, as a person with 5 accounts uses 4 of them to make the 5th rich in ISK and assets and thus makes from the 5th a very enjoyable experience. So this person is investing real life money to make that 5th account cool and fun and all. Yes, but THERE IS MORE TO IT. It is ok because that person has to play those 5 accounts, so that person works a lot to make that 5th account great or whatever... See my point I hope. Image removed, not appropriate for this site. -Suvetar then make me a sig Suvetar what has 4 legs and 1 arm? a happy pitbull
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Death Kill I've given this some though. Considering that the average EVE player is (IIRC) 27 years old thats not really a valid argument. I doubt that applies anymore. In fact I'm sure it doesn't. My money would be an average of 17 now. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Tundaar Minmatar Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:09:00 - [68] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 The new rabble, people buying in game advantages with real life time. They sit play for hours and hours and hours each day essentially overwhleming other players not by being better but by simply giving up everything else in life to sit at a keyboard. It offers far greater than rewards than even money can buy Complete and utter rubbish. You can buy your way to 100 billion isk faster than you can farm or whatever. Hmm look at the math for that - to buy 100 Billion ISK without breaking the EULA would take: (figures rounded for easy calc). (Assume 90 day GTC costs $40 and buys 400 million ISK therefore $10 = 100 Million ISK) 100 million x 1000 = 100 billion so: $10 x 1000 = $10,000 (or 100 Billion) If someone wants to spend $10K on a game within the EULA and is giving the money to CCP I say let them. On a slightly more personal note recent RL developments have severely dented my ability to spend a lot of time in game. Just because I now have a young family and work out of town most days without aa PC does it mean that I should take my main and spend every second online (approx 3 hours per week now) Mining or mission running to afford new ships/skills? (which I then wouldn't be able to have time to use) No instead I chose to occasionaly sell some GTC so that I can actually enjoy the time I have in game without some fo the Grind (which I would haappily do if I had the time). Also look at it from the POV of those who have very little in the way of cash reserve. I know that a number of people I have spoken to would not be able to afford to keep playing if they could not buy GTC with ISK. Killing off this processs would mean that they would be forced out of the game (or forced into breaking the EULA by selling ISK to buy subscription) just because they don't earn much in real life. Again a little unfair. Selling GTC is not an ideal situation but it is better than the alternatives, It keeps the buyer in the game, It allows the seller to have ISK and it adds to CCPs income so they can afford to develop new things in the game. win/win/win as the ISK spent actually feeds the game (unlike ebaying) It's only the grind mechanic and time/experence which gets broken and that I can live with (ie: I'm a lousy PvP'er as I don't have time to practice but I can afford to get new ships occasionally - again feeding the economy )
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:50:00 - [69] People like yourself aren't the problem. Its the ones that launder isk by selling GTCs out of game. Its also those taking it to the extreme. Why should a group of players be able to sell GTCs to hold multiple constellations in 0.0? They can't be beaten as they just buy their ships with RL cash. A registration system can help those who need to play, others can earn a little isk while curtailing the abuse of the system. 9 times out of 10 constant abuse results in the removal of a system. Control it and manage it and I reckon it'll be supported across the player base, ensuring the system will stay around for ever for those that need it. Lets face it CCP could always wait until you're all hooked then remove the GTCs knowing full well you'll find a way to pay. Why give up all that hard work? I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:57:00 - [70] Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 23/10/2006 16:20:49 So, it seams we have a new issue (finally) hitting the agenda. People paying rl money for getting ISK, as a person that has been playing games for more than 20 year and online games since 1999 I look at selling GTC for isk as BLATANT CHEATING. It can possibly break the game, because the game is based on certain principles such as risk vs reward/investment/time vs reward. Selling gtc undermines this. CCP, hear our plea! Yes GTC buys you more Ferraris but seriously its starting to hurt the community you claim to love. God knows how the alliance map would look like if there were no gtc. Frankly, I dont agree with you. Even if people were buying carrier accounts and what not. I see this as having virtually no impact on the way I play my game. Which seems to be the real problem for this complaint. (i.e. people "cheating" affecting the way you play) Why should you care if it doesnt affect you? People get squimish over the stupidest things. Its just a game afterall.
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:04:00 - [71] It does affect you if the enemy keeps whipping out a new ship every ten minutes. Kinda prevents you from taking down their POS doesn't it? Its an mmorpg what you do affects everyone else in the game. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:27:00 - [72] Edited by: Death Kill on 24/10/2006 18:27:10 Originally by: Riley Craven Why should you care if it doesnt affect you? Why would anyone care aboyut anything as long as it doesnt affect them? See? Quote: People get squimish over the stupidest things. Its just a game afterall. Wrong! EVE isnt a game, its a hobby. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:33:00 - [73] Edited by: Death Kill on 24/10/2006 18:33:41 Originally by: Tundaar Hmm look at the math for that No, 100 billion was a number I randomly choosed. Quote: On a slightly more personal note recent RL developments have severely dented my ability to spend a lot of time in game. Just because I now have a young family and work out of town most days without aa PC does it mean that I should take my main and spend every second online (approx 3 hours per week now) Mining or mission running to afford new ships/skills? (which I then wouldn't be able to have time to use) So basically what you are saying is that your situasion is supposed to affect those that do have the time for EVE and the way it was ment to be? Quote: No instead I chose to occasionaly sell some GTC so that I can actually enjoy the time I have in game without some fo the Grind (which I would haappily do if I had the time). Ahhh but you want it both ways, pitty people like you are ruining the value of hard work. Quote: I know that a number of people I have spoken to would not be able to afford to keep playing if they could not buy GTC with ISK. Yet they magically manage to pay their internet bill? Rubbish! Quote: Killing off this processs would mean that they would be forced out of the game (or forced into breaking the EULA by selling ISK to buy subscription) just because they don't earn much in real life. Again a little unfair. I'm a student. I AM POOR, yet I'm able to afford EVE. If you cant afford EVE without breaking the game then you should spend money on food instead of computer games. Quote: Selling GTC is not an ideal situation but it is better than the alternatives, It keeps the buyer in the game, It allows the seller to have ISK and it adds to CCPs income so they can afford to develop new things in the game. win/win/win as the ISK spent actually feeds the game (unlike ebaying) CCP has enough money, and they have too many subscribers for the servers to be able to handle them. If 5000 people left it would only benefit the rest. Quote: It's only the grind mechanic and time/experence which gets broken and that I can live with Its 'only the gring mechanic'? Thats 50% of the game. It breaks the game! N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:34:00 - [74] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Polinus My god.. you don't get it? It does not matter if Eve is for me. It matter if there are enough people of the other type to keep CCp working all by themselves? Yes my dear Polinus I do get it. EVE is a compeditive game, and you want people who can only play a few hours a week compete with people who play everyday. Quote: EVE already does not have a hugea array of subscribers, and cutting out 90% of world population won't help CCP. For a single sharded game EVE hs alot of subscribers, I would take single sharded 'only 100k subscribers' over sharded world of warcrap '10 billion subscribers' anyday! You want a game that you can play a few hours a week, world of warcraft is such a game. again!! You cant get the point. I am not talking on a player pointof view. Think ona CCP point of view!! With 50 k players paying about 14 $ per month.. do you realy think CCP has a large income? They cannot spare to throw away any costumer. On company point on view, Blizzard is zillion times more sucessfull than CCP, in fact is by far the most successfull game company around the world. Since with a single title it get more than 1 Billion dollars per year!
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:41:00 - [75] IMO, CCP's handling of ISK sellers has been very good. They can control the price of ISK by controlling the price of GTC's. Plus, it enables them to take action against those who try to directly sell ISK for money. Much better than doing (relatively) nothing, like SOE/Blizzard did with EQ/WoW, respectively.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:00:00 - [76] Originally by: Polinus On company point on view, Blizzard is zillion times more sucessfull than CCP, in fact is by far the most successfull game company around the world. Since with a single title it get more than 1 Billion dollars per year! CCP doesnt spend a trillion Euro's in marketing. CCP is a small company with fewer employees and yet they are able to provide us with a superior product. Seriously, dont compare CCP with Blizzard. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Tundaar Minmatar Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:44:00 - [77] Edited by: Tundaar on 24/10/2006 19:45:47 Originally by: Death Kill No, 100 billion was a number I randomly choosed. Same proportion applies all down the line - you chose the number - not me. Is it broken if someone spends 100 bucks and gets 1 billion ISK? - possibly - but given the speed that ships get destroyed in Eve that seem like a damn quick way to empty your wallet to me. Originally by: Death Kill So basically what you are saying is that your situasion is supposed to affect those that do have the time for EVE and the way it was ment to be? No - simply using an example - everyone plays Eve differently - it is one of the great things about the game. Why should I be penalised because my circumstances change? - I pay the same amount to play as someone who plays for 15 hours a day; I am also prepared to pay a little more to make up for that lack of time. There are many playing styles, many RL circumstances and everyone has the same rights in the game. CCP has to an extent levelled the playing field a little with their stance. I In most games the issue is Farmers using in game money to buy REAL money, you have an issue with the opposite in Eve using Real money to buy In game money Originally by: Death Kill Ahhh but you want it both ways, pitty people like you are ruining the value of hard work. Actually I'm often working 16 hour days 6 days a week - Eve is my relaxation, not my job. I don't want it both ways - I'm happy with the GTC situation that CCP has sanctioned as it enables me to treat Eve as a game that I can participat ein to the level that I enjoy. When circumstances allowed I did spend 100's of hours online building up assets and training and killing 'roids - I've done that, I can't put that time in any more but still want to play the game - within the rules. Originally by: Death Kill Yet they magically manage to pay their internet bill? Rubbish! Hmm - by the same logic because I can afford a bus ticket I should be able to buy a train? . . . some people have limited funds and have to chose how they allocate them. Don't generalise. Originally by: Death Kill I'm a student. I AM POOR, yet I'm able to afford EVE. If you cant afford EVE without breaking the game then you should spend money on food instead of computer games. So you want to ban a whole bunch of people just becauise they have a different opinion on what breaking game play is? - let's let CCP be the judge of that shall we? People can always vote on what they think a "Broken Game" is by not playing. Originally by: Death Kill CCP has enough money, and they have too many subscribers for the servers to be able to handle them. If 5000 people left it would only benefit the rest. A very simplistic view - for the hardware and dev time going into this game CCP is doing OK, but they haddly have "enough" money. To suggest that them losing almost a million dollars in revenue (5,000 players leaving) is a GOOD thing for the game is sadly shortsighted. CCP is a BUSINESS - if they don't make money - they so out of that business, the better their revenue stream is the more likely that we will get to keep playing this game for a long time yet. <More subscribers (and more GTC sales) is good for CCP and therefore good for Eve. Originally by: Death Kill Its 'only the gring mechanic'? Thats 50% of the game. It breaks the game! People only really have Money and Time to spend. Participation in Eve is dictated by the amount of each of those which a person is willing, or able, to spend. In my case I don't have time and am willing to spend (some) money, in other cases people don't have money and are willing to spend time (represented by ISK). It keeps the economy moving.
Caliwyrm O'Libr	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:56:00 - [78] Originally by: Rick Dentill I have had lots of abortive attempts with thoughts on this post and I have come to this conclusion. The game mechanics put everyone on a level footing and then its our abilities, intelligence guile, interpersonal skills etc that allow us to advance ourselves. Isk sales (GTC or otherwise) circumvent these mechanics so it is not an exploit in the typical sense of the word, but it certainly is one in the spirit of the rules governing them. Why does GTC sales circumvent any game mechanics? Does 1 alliance have a monopoly on GTC sales? From my understanding the alliance with the Titan isn't the one people are talking about here with all the recent "OMGZOR AN ALLIANCE IS SELING GTCz TO FUND THEMSELFES~!!~!oneELEVENTYBILLION!@"
RealLiveGirl Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:05:00 - [79] How is this any different than buying 20 accounts, farming them for 6 months, and then selling them for 500M-1B isk apiece? Answer: it isn't. Real money can and will always produce advantages in a virtual world. Not coincidentally, just like the real world! Richer people get advantages in every way over poor people when it comes to time and labor invested, because they can pay others to do spend time on things they don't want to spend time on, and labor on things they don't want to labor on. You can either stick your head in the sand and let ebay devour Eve, or you can be proactive like CCP and at least try to regulate it a bit with GTCs.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:47:00 - [80] Uh oh guys, people are buying their ISK via unassailable GTCs. This is much worse than when they used farm missions with alts unknown to us, in unassailable empire farming an undeniable ressource. Sure is ruining the game little buddy.
Tarkan Kador Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.25 02:26:00 - [81] The reason the GTC for ISK thing is problematic, is that sooner or later, someone is going to get screwed out of a lot of time, money, or ISK. The thing about game time cards is that they are like a loan to CCP, or a promisary note to CCP. Middlemen, retailers, distributors, and ISK aside, the two ends of the exchange involve CCP, who gets real revenue now, and in exchange, it promises service in the future. There is no theoretical limit as to how many GTCs can enter the economy, as CCP can print them off at their leisure. However, there are two limits to how many GTCs can ever be consumed. Players can only consume GTCs at a fixed rate of one GTC/per account/per term. The other GTCs can get stockpiled, so that when one runs out, players can activate another one. Theoretically, if someone buys 100, fifty-day GTCs, they can play almost 14 account/years without having to pay CCP anything. That is assuming, of course, that EVE lasts for 14 years. It may not, despite the best intentions of CCP. So the GTC is only good for a fixed period between today, and somewhere in the future, unknown to anyone. Whatever GTCs survive past that point are worthless, as the GTC's value is contingent on the availability of the service. Now the real crux of the problem with using GTCs to facilitate ISK sales, is that for every GTC CCP sells, CCP is obligated to provide service at some future date, for some patron, for free. Since ISK is being constantly created, GTCs are constantly being supplied, and GTCs are constantly being exchanged for ISK, there will eventually come a point where there will be more GTCs than the population of Tranquility could ever possibly use, the ISK value will drop to a point where it is not a good return for the seller, and people will start cancelling subscriptions, in favor of using prepaid card time instead. The problem with prepaid card time is that CCP is no longer getting new revenue. It is honoring revenue that has most likely already been spent. It is good in that it allows CCP to build up revenue like a bond, of sorts, and as long as there is enough new money coming in, it is manageable. However, if there is too much prepaid time already out there, and it is easily acquired, then CCP could be faced with thousands of subscribers with more prepaid vouchers than they could ever possibly honor, and the game will suffer financial collapse, thereby making those GTCs worthless. That is the real danger with GTCs as a medium for ISK transactions. It is borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, and it is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off, destroying the viability of keeping the game open.
Hitomi Ayame Royal Knights of Khanid Order of the Khanid Crown	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:46:00 - [82] Irrespective of any post made here, I think it's prudent to briefly point out that: *trading GTCs for ISK and vice versa via the buy/sell forums is not* cheating.** Why not? We play a game. That game has rules. CCP makes the rules. Anything that breaks those rules is cheating. Anything that is allowed within those rules is not cheating. CCP has made the decision to allow GTC/ISK exchange; it is perfectly within the boundaries of the rules as established by CCP. Regardless of how you feel about the principles at work, you cannot claim that GTC/ISK exchange is cheating because it simply is not. Now the direct exchange of ISK for cash is cheating, because CCP has said it is against the rules. To use a card game analogy that was previously used, in certain games of poker, "buying a hand", where in you bid more than your opponent can possibly match and thus force them to fold, is perfectly acceptable because it is within the established rules of the game. If you're at a card table and don't want to play that way, you can do three things: a) tolerate it and continue playing b) get up and leave the table c) suggest to the host or dealer that they change the rules or use a different set You do not accuse the players of cheating. - - - Hitomi Ayame, Lady Marshal, Royal Knights of Khanid The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting!
QwaarJet Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:03:00 - [83] Edited by: QwaarJet on 25/10/2006 06:03:37 Quote: CCP, hear our plea! Yes GTC buys you more Ferraris but seriously its starting to hurt the community you claim to love. Oh my god, stop whining about game time cards. For a start, you would struggle to get the community behind you. Most either favour GTC's or have nothing against them. Your plea will fall on deaf ears, and I can't say that's a bad thing. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Kal Shakai	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:24:00 - [84] I'm curious as to if a GTC saturation level could be reached causing a natural cap to this phenomenon. When do enough GTC's exist that everyone who wants/uses them has enough to play as long as they want or the sales slow down due to lack of demand. In the end this could be seen as brilliant by CCP to curbing the so-called "cheating" or maybe they make tons of front-loaded cash off the craze by pre-selling services via GTC. Just some theories.
Victor Valka Caldari Terra Incognita	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:35:00 - [85] I somehow fail to see the problem. No ISK is magically created. It simply changes hands. Same thing that happens when you sell that spicy veldspar. WTF is the problem?
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:36:00 - [86] Edited by: Xs 142 on 25/10/2006 06:39:11 Let me put it like this: Do you know how long it took us to mine together the ISK to buy GTC's for the entire mining up? Three hours.... Those that are in 0.0 space can do it without any actual problems as ore isn't very hard to come by.. Not much risk vs reward as it is so how does it make a difference? I'll tell you how it makes a difference, it keeps people like me from quitting. A few hours a month in the hauler, protected by the alliance, makes me all the ISK I need for my other, more dreadful activity. No risk v reward in this case, the carebear me hauls and the other me kills.. However I only do it because I can actually play to pay. The play to pay system is the best thing that has happened since the toaster and since you actually have a problem with it, obviously it plays a big role in the subscriber amount. Stop yer yappin' and get some numbers together, mining the amount the GTC sells for isn't very hard if you're already in a major alliance so there's no real difference apart from the fact that alot of us can actually play... May I remind you that the players are the sellers and the buyers Edit: To sum this one up: CCP hear our plea! Don't listen to ANY numbnut who doesn't know enough to have an opinion.. Originally by:* Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
Ashley Stellia	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:02:00 - [87] Originally by: Victor Valka I somehow fail to see the problem. No ISK is magically created. It simply changes hands. Same thing that happens when you sell that spicy veldspar. WTF is the problem? No isk is magically created when someone buys it on ebay either. But we all know that is a big problem.
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:13:00 - [88] Originally by: Ashley Stellia No isk is magically created when someone buys it on ebay either. But we all know that is a big problem. With that said; CCP can either try to fight against ISK sellers/buyers, which is a lost war Or they could turn the situation into profit... This way atleast CCP are the ones getting the bucks Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
Xyn Rhais	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:05:00 - [89] As someone mentioned, using multiple accounts, and GTC/ISK trading are essentially the EXACT SAME PROBLEM. They are both not cheats since they are allowed by the devs. They both give a (fairly large) ingame advantage to the person who is willing/can afford to pay more in real life. Don't give me "you have to invest time in the second account", you just need to log in a couple of minutes once in a blue moon to change a skill trainining, and do that up to the point where your character becomes useful. Then you can have a disposable scout ahead of you, a hauler for your mining, defense when you need it, so on. The fact that you can't train your alts on the same account at the same time, is designed specifically to give an ingame advantage to people who are willing to pay more. Why is this ? Because CCP is a buisness, it's a comercial service. I find that the fact that they are willing to manage RMT, while making some profits, is a realistic solution. What they are doing is put a check on it and making sure the trading does not become a buisness. RMT is not necessarly evil in itself, i think i read on a dev blog somewher that they thought it's "interesting". It's when it turns into a buisness that only cares about profit and will abuse the economy and exploit to obtain that, then it starts to hurt the game. There are plenty of people gaining unfair/unworked for advantages in the game every day. For some people it's a playstyle, stop acting like you've all mined veldspar for 16 hours/day for the last 3 years. Putting my tin-foil hat on, are you guys who are so vocal about this benefiting fromt he macro-miners and gold-farmers ? E-bay sellers ? Because those are the guys who will benefit the most if GTC sales would be stoped.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:33:00 - [90] Wow, talk about a lot of people wanting to control how others play. To those who complain that those based in 0.0 can easily mine or rat and get GTCs "easily", you are clueless. Yes, clueless. To get to the "I can easily rat/mine in 0.0" means that you have to be part of an alliance that has done a LOT OF WORK to make that part of space safe. Oh, how about the "get a credit card" folks. If CCP allows it, why should they? If they can follow the rules and make enough ISK to purchase GTCs to play ... why not? I've seen thsee arguments in every game I've played since UO ... there's a lot of bitterness and jealousy thrown out. If your enemy is pulling out a lot of ships ... get your team together and try to counter it. And, remember ... even when everyone plays by the rules, life isn't fair. Don't like it? Too bad ... we're all stuck with it.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:35:00 - [91] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Any player that has more than 10 of any particular gist mod in their hangar should have them taken by CCP as well ... you know they were gotten by farming plexes (gist mods are VERY easiy converted to large amounts of isk - similar to GTC's) This is exactly what I was talking about. This should read more like: Quote: WAH! My enemy has done a lot of work running complexes over and over to get the good mods that I don't have. WAH! Want those mods? Go run the complex like they do, Sherlock.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:38:00 - [92] For those upset about people purchasing high-SP accounts with ISK (earned, traded for GTCs, or wherever) ... think about this: this means that they don't have the experience of playing that character. When playing World of Warcraft, I'd see purchased high-level players come in and just be total losers. They had NO clue what they were doing ... and it was obvious. So, BEG your enemy to buy some account that they know nothing about. Encourage them to buy that carrier. Then blow the hell out of them because they don't know how to fly it.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:42:00 - [93] I have only two observations to add. First, a substantial proportion of the player base operate multiple accounts that are payed for solely with GTC's. In many cases, players can only continue to operate these accounts while they can buy GTC's with ISK. If in-game GTC trading is banned, many accounts will close, sales of GTC's will fall and CCP will lose future revenue. It is unlikely that CCP would want this outcome. Secondly, many people here (and previously) make the assertion that the game economy may be damaged by a rogue GTC seller with ambitions of running a T2 monopoly. Yet at no time has anyone produced one shred of evidence to support this view. Recent auctions for T2 ships (reaching bids of 70+ billion) have all been attended by well established and recognised members of the T2 production community and no new bogeymen have appeared from the shadows to claim some of the best BPO's in game. This argument is clearly fallacious. Originally by: Ask Ninja Kill all the wolves you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people.
Buzz Dura	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:19:00 - [94] You know .. I must confess, I'm utterly at a loss as to what all the fuss is about :) I get paid plenty but I have to run a wife, a child, 2 cars and a house. So... Imagine my free time, not looking rosy is it? Why can't I buy GTC to trade for ISK? That's legal right? I only play for about ... well, less than 10 hours (MAX!) a week so how can I possibly ruin your game? I would imagine most people who buy GTC for isk are in the same boat as me, I mean, how many merchant bankers play eve who get paid $7000 a month? It's a total non-issue ... can we get back to flaming people on forum instead? It's far more entertaining :)
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:17:00 - [95] Quote: So... Imagine my free time, not looking rosy is it? Why can't I buy GTC to trade for ISK? That's legal right? Yup, perfectly legal. It's all about people with irrational fears who want to control how others play. Quote: I only play for about ... well, less than 10 hours (MAX!) a week so how can I possibly ruin your game? Well, apparently, your mere presence totally destroys the economy. Further up this thread, someone made an excellent point: the said this was a hobby. MMORPGs are no long "just games". People spend way too much time on them. People guild guilds, corps, friendships, empires. It's quite normal for people to spend money on other hobbies. Why not on this one (where the rules allow)?
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:18:00 - [96] PS: I haven't bought ISK or sold GTCs and don't plan to. In the future I might buy GTCs ... presuming there wasn't some else cool and nifty that I wanted to spend the ISK on. I just don't see why everyone is so up-in-arms about it.
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:11:00 - [97] Originally by: Michela PS: I haven't bought ISK or sold GTCs and don't plan to. In the future I might buy GTCs ... presuming there wasn't some else cool and nifty that I wanted to spend the ISK on. I just don't see why everyone is so up-in-arms about it. Because the system is open to abuse on at least two counts. I've left out the risk verse reward arguement that every 0.0 seller has been using to batter mission runners since missions were created. Forget the mulitple account arguement, you have to play the account and hence put in the effort. 1) You can currently run an entire unbeatable alliance off GTC sales. Giving you an unfair advantage over high end game content. 2) You can turn isk into real life cash with GTCs. Register sellers and manage the abuse. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Darkrogue Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:52:00 - [98] Honestly I dont think it affects Eve nearly as much as other MMO's. Some armor reps would cost as much as $150.00 in real life money. And if the person brings that rep into PVP it may get blown up in a matter of seconds. This goes for anything, ships, modules, implants. .....The only people complaining about this must be mission runners.
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:55:00 - [99] Originally by: Darkrogue Honestly I dont think it affects Eve nearly as much as other MMO's. Some armor reps would cost as much as $150.00 in real life money. And if the person brings that rep into PVP it may get blown up in a matter of seconds. This goes for anything, ships, modules, implants. .....The only people complaining about this must be mission runners. Agree with the first bit. Middle bit as you say doesn't matter. Last bit is trolling. This is what I mean why sell them on ebay for RL cash? Register them keep them for the people who need them and those who cna't seem to get the hang of EVE and get rid of the abusers. Linkage I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:57:00 - [100] Agreed. The multiple account argument is complete *****s. If someone wants to pay for and play multiple accounts, that's their business. Originally by:** Valan You can turn isk into real life cash with GTCs. Why is this bad? The fact that the GTC exists and is in circulation means that CCP was paid for it. So, it benefits us all. Companies that continue to get paid tend to continue to provide services. Originally by: Valan You can currently run an entire unbeatable alliance off GTC sales. Giving you an unfair advantage over high end game content. So can anyone. So, the playing field is level. Seriously, has someone done this? Or, is this just fear-mongering? CCP has put in an interesting system to help curb the rampant sale of ISK. They've done it in a way that allows people to stay in the game who might now stay in the game by allowing them to pay for their game time with ISK. Let's face a little reality here: people are GOING to buy/sell ISK/gold/sex. Those with money will seek out those willing to sell. And, those who want that money will do what they must. Seriously, you can't stop it. One needs to find ways to funnel those things creatively. And, as I've said, it looks like CCP has done that.
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:59:00 - [101] Originally by: Valan 2) You can turn isk into real life cash with GTCs. And how did you intend to do this? By selling the GTCs? That's a helluvalotta work for a few spare bucks Heck I earn more than that by sitting on my rear at home Anyways: It's either this or mining in their already taken space in most major alliances The small ones without mining space are't a very great risk for the game economy as it is. All in all, thos who could do something horrible with that money, already have other ways And it's not like ISK is hard to come by. And, ya, hordes of bucksa will be lost for CCP if this wasn't allowed... Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:25:00 - [102] The reason why selling GTCs for isk is legal is that CCP gets the money to where if they didn't allow it ppl would buy the isk from isk selling sites and Ebay. No matter what, ppl will get isk from somewhere and I for one would rather see CCP get the money then some macrominer or isk farmer. Get rid of selling GTCs and we would be back at square one with macroers and farmers flooding every .5 and up systems. --
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:38:00 - [103] Edited by: Valan on 25/10/2006 16:40:46 One alliance is actually using its masses to produce isk through GTC sales. Which is not a level playing field and not in the spirit of the game. Basically these aren't guys who couldn't play without GTCs these are players who normally pay cash but the alliance is getting them to buy GTC from the alliance itself. The difference in the deal gives them a profit in isk so they can buy capitals and POS. Cheating on a small scale doesn't really bother the community at large, 2000 cheating people does. The reason I'm against reselling GTCs for RL cash is because it aids the macro farmers. Instead of risking a ban on ebay they're circumventing ebay and using GTCs. I think the general consensus on these boards is that the ebaying macro miners are bad. CCP have given them a backdoor. Also people who purchase GTCs from ebay are not covered and people do buy them. CCP ban these guys for ebaying and farming so we should prevent them from laundering isk using GTCs. Register sellers close the loophole. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:38:00 - [104] Edited by: Sojuro Ryosaki on 25/10/2006 17:40:36 Originally by: Valan ...these are players who normally pay cash but the alliance is getting them to buy GTC from the alliance itself. These players are giving other alliance members isk to pay for their accounts. Sounds fare to me Originally by: Valan The reason I'm against reselling GTCs for RL cash is because it aids the macro farmers. Instead of risking a ban on ebay they're circumventing ebay and using GTCs. How the heck does selling GTCs for isk help macroers and farmers? Are you a complete moron? How GTC Sales Work 101: CCP sells GTC to player1 which sells GTC to player2 to which CCP has more funds to continue the game development. How Macroing and Farming Work 101: Macroer/farmer do their things and sells goods to player1 for isk. M/F takes isk and puts on Ebay or isk selling web site. M/F keeps money earned from selling isk. Money does not return to CCP excluding monthly fees. Originally by: Valan CCP ban these guys for ebaying and farming Originally by: Valan so we should prevent them from laundering isk using GTCs. Register sellers close the loophole. --
Tarkan Kador Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.25 18:26:00 - [105] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 25/10/2006 18:27:11 The thing that scares me about the GTC for ISK thing, is that when the bubble bursts, it will hurt us all. This game has fixed operating costs. It also has plans to expand the franchise. If at any time it can't meet those things, the game suffers financial collapse. Now I don't know how many people play the 140,000 to 170,000 accounts. Nor do I know how many of those people who are playing the accounts are playing via GTCs for timecodes. Nor do I know how much prepaid time is floating around, getting stockpiled, versus being consumed. All I can say is that the growth of the game, the number of concurrent accounts logged on tranquility, or the number of subscriptions alone does not give us any clear indication of whether or not this game is on a firm financial footing, given this GTC for ISK business. For all we know, the game could be going broke right now, and we'd never know. All it takes is for enough people who are paying to not pay anymore, and enough GTCs floating around to where you wouldn't have any need to buy more from CCP, and the game is sunk. We could very well wake up one day and see two headlines from Kieron: "Good news! We just got 50,000 concurrent accounts on Tranquility." "Bad news! We are now bankrupt." When the game goes under because there is too much prepaid time, and not enough new revenue, then what good will your GTCs or ISK do then?
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2006.10.25 18:53:00 - [106] OK, 1 more time for the reading impaired. player1 BUYS WITH RL MONEY a GTC from CCP. Player1 then sells GTC to player2 for isk. This means that player1 is paying for player2's account for the time of the GTC. So, player2 pays player1 isk for the appreciation of player1 taking care of his account. --
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:37:00 - [107] Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki How the heck does selling GTCs for isk help macroers and farmers? Are you a complete moron? The farmers convert the proceeds into isk and buy GTCs. They can then sell the GTCs on ebay or a private site. For instance I have 10 billion isk, I buy a bundle of GTCs then sell them for real cash easy, I haven't broken the Eula have I? So whats the point in banning anyone for ebaying why is one legit and the other not? Occasionally the buyer gets scammed because it is an out of game transaction. Its been stated numerous times how it works I would like the loop hole closing and all GTC trading brought into CCPs control. So back to your original statement:- How the heck does selling GTCs for isk help macroers and farmers? Answered for the tenth time. So to the second of your statement:- Are you a complete moron? Nope because I knew the answer to the question. So you don't read posts properly or you're trying to divert attention by flaming. So that makes you the moron or ebaying trash. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:39:00 - [108] If you'd bothered to do any research at all, macroers do not get their money that way. They farm isk and then sell it for irl cash DIRECTLY, for whatever their prices are (probably at a better conversion rate than GTC -> ISK or else nobody would buy from them). GTCs dont come anywhere near their operation except possibly to pay for their accounts, which I could decide if I could be arsed to do the math. My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:39:00 - [109] Edited by: Valan on 25/10/2006 22:40:08 Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki OK, 1 more time for the reading impaired. player1 BUYS WITH RL MONEY a GTC from CCP. Player1 then sells GTC to player2 for isk. This means that player1 is paying for player2's account for the time of the GTC. So, player2 pays player1 isk for the appreciation of player1 taking care of his account. Thats an example of a good transaction that isn't that big of an issue. Thats a lamer helping a poor person. Thats not what I have a problem with as such as its cheating sanctioned by CCP. So its you thats reading impaired as its the type of transaction above I would like prevented. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
Valan	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:41:00 - [110] Originally by: zeKzn If you'd bothered to do any research at all, macroers do not get their money that way. They farm isk and then sell it for irl cash DIRECTLY, for whatever their prices are (probably at a better conversion rate than GTC -> ISK or else nobody would buy from them). GTCs dont come anywhere near their operation except possibly to pay for their accounts, which I could decide if I could be arsed to do the math. Mostly yes but not always. Although ebay GTC sales have suddenly vanished. I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.25 22:46:00 - [111] Edited by: zeKzn on 25/10/2006 22:48:06 Edited by: zeKzn on 25/10/2006 22:47:03 Originally by: Valan Mostly yes but not always. Although ebay GTC sales have suddenly vanished. So, basically, there's a small downside of helping the minority of farmers. You know, there's this thing called a cost benefit analysis, and so far its saying GTCs aren't a bad idea at all. Edit: believe me, they dont care about account bans at all. I guarantee you if you ban a farmer's account he'll be back on another one thats in at least a retriever if not a fully outfitted covetor in about 5 minutes. My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.25 23:08:00 - [112] Hmm, I doubt CCP would ever actually change this though. I personally dont think its that bad of an idea, its just when people come in and overdo it.....But, in effect, CCP gets cash, rich people get isk, rich ingame people get game time? You see if they made some kind of restriction or some way of limiting it then it would be perfectly fine Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"

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